You forgot that you play me sometimes.
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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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You forgot that you play me sometimes.
I'm sure the question that is on everyone's mind is why is Ness lower than expected tier projections (lower than Lucas as well) and why is Bowser much higher than expected tier projections?
More minor questions (that I don't particularly care for but has been expressed by the community, so I might as well mention it) is Ike's (bit too high), TL's (bit too low), and Lucario's (bit too high, or at least too high for being essentially repped by just Azen) positions?
Most of the characters I use have gotten fair placings (Sonic and PT being low, Falco being very high, Marth being high to a lesser extent), but I personally also have to wonder how did Dedede get up that high (or at least how did he surpass G&W and Falco with quite a number of terrible matchups)?
More minor questions (that I don't particularly care for but has been expressed by the community, so I might as well mention it) is Ike's (bit too high), TL's (bit too low), and Lucario's (bit too high, or at least too high for being essentially repped by just Azen) positions?
Most of the characters I use have gotten fair placings (Sonic and PT being low, Falco being very high, Marth being high to a lesser extent), but I personally also have to wonder how did Dedede get up that high (or at least how did he surpass G&W and Falco with quite a number of terrible matchups)?
Mia do me a favour and pull Yoshi out of bottom 5, I know you can do it man.
Also I'd like to inquire as to Mario's tiering placement. All I've ever heard about him from Mario users was that he's complete garbage in this game, so is that really the case?
Also I'd like to inquire as to Mario's tiering placement. All I've ever heard about him from Mario users was that he's complete garbage in this game, so is that really the case?
i don't recall you stalling the timer and you play SONIC lol. and pokemon trainer can't just stand there doing nothing. at the very least ivysaur can pepper with razor leaf if the opponent wants to stall. squirtle has to approach anyway, and charizard can be both aggressive and defensive. ledge camping would, in theory, be really gay. but pt can just switch if he just puts some distance between the camper and himself.
mia, i have a few questions/comments (awesome that we get a q&a, i appreciate it!)
1. why is metaknight, and to a lesser extent snake, in the same tier as dedede/falco/etc? tourney results have proven that the two are currently a whole tier above the rest, and perhaps metaknight is even a tier above snake.
2. i see that characters like toon link were pushed up a bit in the list because, although they have horrid tourney representation, it's clear to see that there is quite a bit of potential there and are decent characters. if this is the case, why is pokemon trainer in low tier? it is generally agreed upon that there is a lot of potential there, pt has had more tourney representation since the july/august list than characters like toon link and luigi.
i realize it's not a clear cut "okay, this character is placing this way and seems to have this much potential so he goes here"" but it'd just be nice to get some background info on the placing.
3. peach seems to be abnormally low. some feel that peach could be all the way up in high tier around where Pit and Ice Climbers are hanging out. she has some surprisingly good match ups, like pretty much destroying olimar. and she has the tourney representation to back it up, since july/august she's been around where pikachu and kirby are.
4. other than a few minor qualms, this tier list seems really quite accurate. in a few years, after more sets come out, do you think we'll look back to this first one and say "man, we really got most of it right the first time" or "what the hell were we thinking?"
Man, it certainly is interesting to read all of these posts. It's a "heated" argument of different-opinions, facts, and support material to back up claims. =D
I "just" took a look at the new tier list, and I do have a few questions myself. ^^
1.) (excuse my noobness) What determines a character's positioning again? (Tourney results???)
2.) Why is Lucas higher than Ness? (A funny question...coming from someone who mains Lucas.) ^-^
Other than that, I guess I feel Wolf being placed at the bottom of "high tier" seems about right, and my love for Jiggly will not wane despite her low placement (which was expected). Of course, I main a low tierer anyways, so GO LUCAS!!! >.<
Happy Brawling! ^^
I "just" took a look at the new tier list, and I do have a few questions myself. ^^
1.) (excuse my noobness) What determines a character's positioning again? (Tourney results???)
2.) Why is Lucas higher than Ness? (A funny question...coming from someone who mains Lucas.) ^-^
Other than that, I guess I feel Wolf being placed at the bottom of "high tier" seems about right, and my love for Jiggly will not wane despite her low placement (which was expected). Of course, I main a low tierer anyways, so GO LUCAS!!! >.<
Happy Brawling! ^^
Okay, thanks! =D
Though, if you wouldn't mind, could you explain this "For tournament purposes, Lucas is superior to Ness in pretty much every feasibly aspect."
I'm overly curious. I've battled many a Ness with my Lucas, and I find it extremely difficult (though factoring in individual play styles and overall character control should also apply). =D
*ignore this...i sooo had to double post...my post# was (666) >.<* XD
*superstitious...no...but it was just funny* ^^
*superstitious...no...but it was just funny* ^^
I'm curious as to why Falco and ROB were moved up to top tier despite where the voting split was, but marth was left at the top of high tier. I also expected wolf would be a bit higher than where he is.
Oh and...
Oh and...
Well, I'm not mia, but... Done. Yoshi is 6th from the bottom. lolYoshi King said:
hey welcome back mia >:O
Mario a one-move character? Forward Smash isn't even that strong, it just has good range for a character his size. Cape is a great gimping tool among other things, his Fireballs actually give him a good approach, blagh blag hblagh. All in all not a great character but the only thing "awful" about him is that recovery.
Yoshi has leet chain grab release on MK. I thought DK was also considered to be "good" against both Snake and MK (G&W too!), though, which would explain a lot of why he does so well in tournaments.
I think it has a lot more to do with lack of representation than anything else. Dedede's infinite against DK didn't stop him from aiming high. Wario has just as many problems with grab releases, he's shown top 10 potential thus far. They're clearly not a dealbreaker if other high characters are also dealing with them, so that can't be what's holding them back in ranking. Hardly anyone uses them.
Likewise with TL, who has all the tools necessary for AT LEAST mid-high tier. It's surprising here since he was looking to be very heavily used at the start of the game but has since completely fallen off the map.
Mario a one-move character? Forward Smash isn't even that strong, it just has good range for a character his size. Cape is a great gimping tool among other things, his Fireballs actually give him a good approach, blagh blag hblagh. All in all not a great character but the only thing "awful" about him is that recovery.
Yoshi has leet chain grab release on MK. I thought DK was also considered to be "good" against both Snake and MK (G&W too!), though, which would explain a lot of why he does so well in tournaments.
I think it has a lot more to do with lack of representation than anything else. Dedede's infinite against DK didn't stop him from aiming high. Wario has just as many problems with grab releases, he's shown top 10 potential thus far. They're clearly not a dealbreaker if other high characters are also dealing with them, so that can't be what's holding them back in ranking. Hardly anyone uses them.
Likewise with TL, who has all the tools necessary for AT LEAST mid-high tier. It's surprising here since he was looking to be very heavily used at the start of the game but has since completely fallen off the map.
Hehe, well, I'm really not the type to go into detail with stuff like this, and I don't really purposely analyze such attributes, but....I myself find some of what Mia stated to be a bit unbelievable. O_o
Let's see, from my awesome experiences against Colin's Ness (which is really good IMO =P)...and plz correct me wherever necessary (I don't usually write about this stuff ^^):
1.) Ness' dash attack and Fair have excellent range and totally outrange Lucas..I believe.
2.) Ness' Dair is an awesome move. It auto spikes (unlike Lucas' Bair..which is quite fickle) Also...does the hitbox last a bit on this move? (What IS a disjointed hitbox anyway...if it's NOT already obvious? ^-^)
3.) Ness' PKT2 has..well...it kills things.(>.>) If the two different PKT2s were to clash....I have personal experience whose will win. =/
4.) Ness' PK Fire...can score him 30+ damage early on. (i BELIEVE it's 30+...) @_@
5.) Ness' yo-yo may not kill ALL that well, but it certainly has its uses.
*) On another note: I do believe Lucas' stick IS faster than Ness' bat and can indeed kill rather low. =O (point Lucas????) O_o
*) The passing through objects effect of Lucas' PKT is indeed a nice perk and leads to less gimps, so I totally feel ya there Mia! ^^ (another point Lucas???) =O
Anyhoo, these are my thoughts. Don't take them to heart, I'm just stating my observations. =D (I COULD totally be wrong about some or most of this!) ^^
What are your thoughts Colin? I would REALLY like to know! =D
I must learn more about the world of PK!!! =O ;P
Well if you insist on a break down:
"Lucas KOs lower" - wrong
"doesn't get gimped on recovery" - wrong
"has more disjointed hitboxes" - in terms of how disjointed they are, probably right
"a usable wavedash" - silly
"more range" - wrong, Ness's pk thunder is usable on the stage and has better range than anything Lucas has
"all 3 smashes are better" - wrong, Ness's up and down smash are better, and forward smash is about as good... Lucas's is probably slightly better, but Ness's has slightly better range and kills earlier so it's close.
"better specials" - Ness's pk thunder is much better (it's one of his main attacking moves!) and for what it's worth, pk flash is also better than pk freeze (but they both suck anyway)
"same movement and weight" - Ness's double jump is much different from Lucas's, so they obviously do not have similar movement. Also their weights are close but I do not believe they are the same.
"and no real disadvantage when compared to Ness in any way" - totally wrong
"Apparently Ness has better "combos" but this is false because Brawl has so few combos anyway. Lucas is the superior character in every aspect." - silly comment, but Ness does have some good combos, e.g., tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2. Ness's pk thunder tail inflicts no hitlag so you can't DI out of this.
Overall Mia's post was pretty wrong. I doubt he has ever played against anybody who uses Ness.
"Lucas KOs lower" - wrong
"doesn't get gimped on recovery" - wrong
"has more disjointed hitboxes" - in terms of how disjointed they are, probably right
"a usable wavedash" - silly
"more range" - wrong, Ness's pk thunder is usable on the stage and has better range than anything Lucas has
"all 3 smashes are better" - wrong, Ness's up and down smash are better, and forward smash is about as good... Lucas's is probably slightly better, but Ness's has slightly better range and kills earlier so it's close.
"better specials" - Ness's pk thunder is much better (it's one of his main attacking moves!) and for what it's worth, pk flash is also better than pk freeze (but they both suck anyway)
"same movement and weight" - Ness's double jump is much different from Lucas's, so they obviously do not have similar movement. Also their weights are close but I do not believe they are the same.
"and no real disadvantage when compared to Ness in any way" - totally wrong
"Apparently Ness has better "combos" but this is false because Brawl has so few combos anyway. Lucas is the superior character in every aspect." - silly comment, but Ness does have some good combos, e.g., tail of pk thunder -> pk thunder 2. Ness's pk thunder tail inflicts no hitlag so you can't DI out of this.
Overall Mia's post was pretty wrong. I doubt he has ever played against anybody who uses Ness.
Well, I certainly can believe most of what you said from experience. =)
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Ness' grab is wayyyyy better IMO! =O
It's fast..and when you back throw...WATCH OUT!!! >.<
Lucas' throws aren't too shabby either, but you have to really play it safe since he's got a laggy ropesnake. ^^
Oh, and I forgot to mention that Ness' grab is wayyyyy better IMO! =O
It's fast..and when you back throw...WATCH OUT!!! >.<
Lucas' throws aren't too shabby either, but you have to really play it safe since he's got a laggy ropesnake. ^^
If Mario was deemed to be a 1-move character, why was he placed above Yoshi, Samus (yes I know she sucks but she still has at least a little bit of potential) and Pokemon Trainer? I don't mean this to be an attack on SBR because my smash knowledge is mainly limited to Yoshi, but it seems you weren't joking when you mentioned that less focus was put on lower tier characters.
I'm glad you (and they) are finding out (and agreeing with!) the notion that Yoshi is a good matchup against Metaknight and Snake. I've played plenty of people better than myself with both characters, but still managed to hold my own because I found that Yoshi's abilities just make a natural counter to those two if played right. I'm not going to pretend I know specific, technical knowledge for Yoshi, but I highly suggest you contact bigman40 on Smashboards if you're interested in learning more about Yoshi, not to mention playing an amazing player of him. Bigman's definitely one of the best guys to go to in terms of Yoshi information.
I had a pretty good laugh at this. You post something like "[Lucas has] no real disadvantage when compared to Ness in any way" and then you tell other people they have no insight into competitive smash? That is pretty hilarious. Your comparative analysis is about the calibre I would expect from a random topic on gamefaqs, not a member of the SBR. Well actually it is what I expect from the SBR since it's pretty obvious how qualified its members are to qualified to vote on Brawl tiers judging by the resultant tier list.
(By the way, I know what Lucas can do and although various characters have techniques that are superficially similar to wavedashing, no characters can wavedash in the sense of using the momentum from an air dodge to slide along the ground and it's silly to call random techniques wavedashing.)
With regard to envious locations, I wish I lived somewhere cool in the US myself... the last tournament around here was in early July (I got 7th) and there hasn't been another one since then. There isn't much you can personally do to "rep" a character when you don't live in certain areas anyway.
Not a problem, I understand mate. I just find this kind of stuff interesting, but I'm glad someone in the higher ranks sees Yoshi's potential. I think he can cap out around middle tier, but there again there are quite a few really good characters in middle tier too. I just wish I had better smash skills, because I would be more than happy to prove to everyone out their that Yoshi isn't bottom of the barrel shit, he's a decent character. Sure I can hold my own against a few pros that I've faced (Ever heard of MDK? I've played him, managed to beat him once or twice) but actually winning consistently... I just don't have the time to be able to practice. Why did Fumi have to quit smash, he could've done my hard work for me. (*sigh*)
You're free to discuss without being a condescending asshole. Consider this a warning.
ITT I respond to Colin/Mia as well. Colin is being treated a bit unfairly but he's also wrong!
Lucas KOs lower? Likely correct overall, but arguable. Ness has a lot of strength in the air. Lucas has very powerful Smashes, Stick is probably what really pushes him ahead of Ness in the KO department, and gimps better.
Doesn't get gimped on recovery? Not technically true, as you alluded to on IRC Colin, but you knew what she meant. Lucas is definitely much less gimpable than Ness and honestly not that much worse off than average.
lol wavedash, cute-yet-totally-incorrrect way to describe zap jumping or what? His amazing b-stick/recoil/wavebounced PKF?
More range? Absolutely. Lucas has an equally usable PK Thunder projectile on-stage (if not better overall). His tilts have strong range to them, his DAir is one of the most protective in the game.
Better smashes? Considering the speed of Lucas' verticals and the completely non-standard uses of Ness's yo-yos it's hard to directly compare the two. (Personally I'd agree, but meh.) Stick is better than Bat, though, no contest there.
Better Specials? Arguable, though most would agree Lucas has the edge. His PKT is overall better (Ness's potent PKT2, which is still very difficult to land, does not make up the lack of gimping potential Lucas's has), especially for recovery purposes. His PKF gives him a strong spacing game and has more "utility belt" tricks where Ness's doesn't do much but lead into a Bat tipper or throw at low percents. Both Freeze/Flash are essentially useless and Lucas's Magnet is a flat-out upgrade.
Same movement and weight... Yes, not EXACTLY, but very close. (I think their weights ARE the same, though.) Lucas actually has slightly better lateral movement in the air as well.
Of course, Lucas is not without no disadvantage compared to Ness; he's not better in absolutely every aspect and he's not just some upgraded clone character. Where Lucas relies on outranging opponents with his rangy disjointness, Ness just has a buttload of priority and misleadingly large hitboxes. He's got a lot more raw power in the air, including one of the most powerful conventional spikes in the game, and he's one of the few characters left with a true killing throw. Lucas is just a much better character overall. Other than to exaggerate the point with "he's superior in every aspect," every point by Mia is either arguable or clearly in Lucas' favor. And let's not forget that Ness has a generally harder time dealing with grab release combos, as Lucas can DI out of most sooner.
Lucas KOs lower? Likely correct overall, but arguable. Ness has a lot of strength in the air. Lucas has very powerful Smashes, Stick is probably what really pushes him ahead of Ness in the KO department, and gimps better.
Doesn't get gimped on recovery? Not technically true, as you alluded to on IRC Colin, but you knew what she meant. Lucas is definitely much less gimpable than Ness and honestly not that much worse off than average.
lol wavedash, cute-yet-totally-incorrrect way to describe zap jumping or what? His amazing b-stick/recoil/wavebounced PKF?
More range? Absolutely. Lucas has an equally usable PK Thunder projectile on-stage (if not better overall). His tilts have strong range to them, his DAir is one of the most protective in the game.
Better smashes? Considering the speed of Lucas' verticals and the completely non-standard uses of Ness's yo-yos it's hard to directly compare the two. (Personally I'd agree, but meh.) Stick is better than Bat, though, no contest there.
Better Specials? Arguable, though most would agree Lucas has the edge. His PKT is overall better (Ness's potent PKT2, which is still very difficult to land, does not make up the lack of gimping potential Lucas's has), especially for recovery purposes. His PKF gives him a strong spacing game and has more "utility belt" tricks where Ness's doesn't do much but lead into a Bat tipper or throw at low percents. Both Freeze/Flash are essentially useless and Lucas's Magnet is a flat-out upgrade.
Same movement and weight... Yes, not EXACTLY, but very close. (I think their weights ARE the same, though.) Lucas actually has slightly better lateral movement in the air as well.
Of course, Lucas is not without no disadvantage compared to Ness; he's not better in absolutely every aspect and he's not just some upgraded clone character. Where Lucas relies on outranging opponents with his rangy disjointness, Ness just has a buttload of priority and misleadingly large hitboxes. He's got a lot more raw power in the air, including one of the most powerful conventional spikes in the game, and he's one of the few characters left with a true killing throw. Lucas is just a much better character overall. Other than to exaggerate the point with "he's superior in every aspect," every point by Mia is either arguable or clearly in Lucas' favor. And let's not forget that Ness has a generally harder time dealing with grab release combos, as Lucas can DI out of most sooner.
The Stick actually KOs slightly sooner, IIRC, the Bat just does way more damage (tippered). That's another thing -- Stick has no sweetspot requirement for full knockback/damage. Nevermind that the faster swing makes it much more usable as a reflecting attack.
The only things representing a "wavedash" with PSI Magnet is either the little slide when short hopping it or the massive pull created by using it immediately after a momentum pushback from PKF. The former is really only useful as a close-range projectile counter, as PSI Magnet has really short range used as an attack and will be punished by anything not absorbed, and the latter is a recovery gimmick coming from up high.
The only things representing a "wavedash" with PSI Magnet is either the little slide when short hopping it or the massive pull created by using it immediately after a momentum pushback from PKF. The former is really only useful as a close-range projectile counter, as PSI Magnet has really short range used as an attack and will be punished by anything not absorbed, and the latter is a recovery gimmick coming from up high.
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