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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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Surgo said:
I definitely remember seeing a vid where somebody took a fresh vertical attack that killed with no DI and didn't use the key, and then took the same (also fresh, same percent obviously) vertical attack with no DI using the key and it did not kill. But I will certainly look again.
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Fast falling any aerial with any character will decrease the vertical component of your knockback by an amount proportional to your fast fall speed. It doesn't matter what aerial it is (falling aerials like the key are not better). However, with Game & Watch, you want to be able to use the bucket as soon as possible after your aerial, and the key lasts much longer than the fish bowl, so it's strictly worse than the fish bowl. (I didn't mean it was worse than doing nothing; it's better than doing nothing.)
 
Okay, got it. I thought you were saying it was worse than doing nothing, which was certainly quite a misunderstanding!
 
Every attack slows your momentum, but the additional momentum-altering properties of certain attacks (i.e. stall-and-fall aerials) aren't taken into account during knockback. Therefore, you simply want to use your fastest aerial to exit hitstun and regain control. The big deal with MrEsc's video is that the programmars forgot to implement that mechanic to the three Specials depicted, so their momentum-cancelling properties still work during knockback. Else, you'd have Lucario and ROB surviving to ridiculous percents spamming their DAir as well.
 
Not entirely. As I said, fast falling an aerial during knockback actually reduces the vertical component of your momentum. It's more than just regaining control.
 
lolwut

Just using an aerial will slow your knockback, period. It's true that fastfalling the aerial will reduce the vertical knockback even more, but you're just putting additional information to my post more so than actually correcting me. Aerials and Specials with momentum-shift properties don't have them taken into account, so you simply want to use the aerial that starts up fastest... Unless you're using one of the three moves in the video, in which case you want to use the aerial that ends the quickest so you can start them sooner.
 
The only manner in which using an aerial in hitstun will reduce your knockback is because of fast falling, and only the vertical component is reduced. It's not true that "Just using an aerial will slow your knockback, period." "Just using an aerial" does nothing to your knockback, but it does allow you to regain air control.

By the way I determined some comparative figures for bucket braking.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6041705&postcount=144
 
My main is Sonic.

Why is he bottom tier? I don't mean to complain and whine about it, I legitimately don't understand your guys' logic. In my opinion, he is fast, he can recover well, and if you use the right techniques, he can deal some significant damage.
 
sumginazu said:
My main is Sonic.

Why is he bottom tier? I don't mean to complain and whine about it, I legitimately don't understand your guys' logic. In my opinion, he is fast, he can recover well, and if you use the right techniques, he can deal some significant damage.
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My main is Sonic.
Sonic sucks.
Sonic has issues KOing people.
Sonic has a lack of disjointed moves.
Sonic has a lack of range.
Sonic's approaches tend to be a bit less reliable compared to approaches of the rest of the cast.
Most of Sonic's damage comes from baiting moves/approaches then punishing them. The disadvantage in that is that many characters outclass Sonic in the fact that they don't necessarily have to do the same to build up damage.
You can throw the argument of his lack of priority in there, but that's controversial.
 
And some of his questionable match-ups...

I've been using Diddy Kong lately, and I gotta say I'm quite impressed. I mean, just about everything is good about him, especially his edgeguarding game. The banana peels are pretty helpful for setting up combos, and the Peanut Popgun adds to the mindgames. Definitely my main from now on.

I have this weird question that I feel like asking: why is Lucas so low? Granted I understand its all about usage and tournament wins blah blah, but I don't see a whole lot that is wrong about him. Huge KO potential with smash attacks (Up smash is a killer, though it lags a little bit) and PK Thunder being a good way to bash the opponent from a distance. Edgeguarding is okay, many characters do some things better than him in this department, but has PK Freeze, said PK Thunder... and priority isn't too bad from what I recall. Sorry to come out of the middle of nowhere and ask this (its probably a rather dumb question) but I'm just curious.
 
Colonel M said:
And some of his questionable match-ups...

I've been using Diddy Kong lately, and I gotta say I'm quite impressed. I mean, just about everything is good about him, especially his edgeguarding game. The banana peels are pretty helpful for setting up combos, and the Peanut Popgun adds to the mindgames. Definitely my main from now on.

I have this weird question that I feel like asking: why is Lucas so low? Granted I understand its all about usage and tournament wins blah blah, but I don't see a whole lot that is wrong about him. Huge KO potential with smash attacks (Up smash is a killer, though it lags a little bit) and PK Thunder being a good way to bash the opponent from a distance. Edgeguarding is okay, many characters do some things better than him in this department, but has PK Freeze, said PK Thunder... and priority isn't too bad from what I recall. Sorry to come out of the middle of nowhere and ask this (its probably a rather dumb question) but I'm just curious.
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Well in my personal opinion, I'd say it's a combination of two things, since I know little about Lucas. For one, Lucas is always being compared to Ness, who is the better of the two. The other thing is that Lucas is just outclassed in a lot of the things he does best.

People also like to consider Marth's grab release tactics on him, though that's matchup specific and shouldn't really be what hinders Lucas's position on the tier list.
 
Steelicks said:
toon link: powerful, quick, with great projectiles. no real weaknesses at all
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No real weaknesses at all? What about the ending lag on his aerials? What about his slow grab (easily punishable if it misses)?

kirby: also improved, but, like pikachu, not enough to be ranked with the big boys
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Well, WHY THE HELL NOT? Kirby's got quick, powerful smashes, generally quick attacks, an impressive edgeguarding game, and excellent recovery. Did I mention his priority is on par with GAW? There's a reason HE'S actually ranked High Tier.

one winged angel said:
Why is game&watch in the top tier? He is destroyed by links wide range of powerful upward attacks and any character with decent arial capabilities. Also, his pojectile is too awkward to be used well. The bucket and hammer are the only things he has going for him.
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No... just... no. Game and Watch has quick, powerful smashes and tilts (much like Kirby, except incredibly overpowered). His aerial/edgeguarding game is also pretty good.
 
Sixonesix said:
Just what is so good about King Dedede? I mean, for the life of me I can't think of any useful moves aside from his chain grab, his f-tilt, his b-air, his recover move and his waddle dees.
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Heh, funny how that is, now he's one of my best characters. I just made my friend get mad and quit after I chain grabbed him off the stage and finished him off with swallow when I was still up a stock. So...yeah. >.>
 
Umby said:
For one, Lucas is always being compared to Ness, who is the better of the two.
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I disagree slightly. But only for a few reasons.

The PK Thunder for Lucas has more uses than Ness's (Ness can use PK Thunder, though once it hits something with the head it disappears). Also, PK Freeze is faster than PK Flash (and with a slightly better side effect, and I stress slightly). The smashes in particular is what I thought made it a little bit higher. The Up Smash, as I've stated, has the lag and his Down smash lacks the capability of hitting behind him, but both are very powerful. Also his throw is a tether, which gives Lucas a slight advantage in recovery and grabbing, though his throws are rather lacking IMO.

For Ness, his main qualities are PK Fire's capability of lasting longer, his back-Air having a sweet-spot, and his Up-Air being a good killer move. In other words, his aerial game is slightly better than Lucas's IMO. On the ground though he seems a little shaky (with the exception of his throws). The PK Flash I consider outclassed by the PK Freeze, and his PK Thunder, as stated, is slightly worse (though using it for Tail Whipping is fine).

I understand its probably preference, though I've found Lucas to be a good powerhouse on the ground, while Ness is awesome with aerials and his PK Fire helping him combo with his Down throw. If you play with Smash Balls (which I might doubt some people are?) then Lucas's PK Thunder gets a +1 over Ness. Probably answered my question by stating those things though. <_<;
 
This is the part where Colin comes in and rants about Ness and where Shaky meatrides, then the rest of us sarcastically agree that Ness is top tier.

Also, I just realized that the tier list came out on my birthday.
 
Ok I'm going to keep this brief (since Colin wont defend Ness). Pk Flash/Freeze are VERY situational, so comparing their uses is rather a waste of time. Lucas does not outclass Ness on the ground, with the exception of the tilts ,pkfire, and fsmash. That's all I have to say (sorry maku D: )


EDIT: I just saw Umby's post after I made this one xD; it is true people, Ness is top tier
 
Golden Togekiss said:
dumb
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That post was from June.
shaky said:
Ok I'm going to keep this brief (since Colin wont defend Ness). Pk Flash/Freeze are VERY situational, so comparing their uses is rather a waste of time. Lucas does not outclass Ness on the ground, with the exception of the tilts ,pkfire, and fsmash. That's all I have to say (sorry maku D: )


EDIT: I just saw Umby's post after I made this one xD; it is true people, Ness is top tier
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I main Ness... and agree that he is not top tier. Underrated, for sure, but I doubt he'll get past Mid tier. He just doesn't have enough range and his ground game is mediocre. At least he's fun to play.
 
Ness is apparently low tier according to the front page. I can't see why. I use Ness quite a bit, his only real disadvantage is that his recovery is easily gimped compared to other characters. He has a nice assortment of melee attacks, and fantastic air attacks, specifically his b-air and u-air.
 
shaky said:
Lucas does not outclass Ness on the ground, with the exception of the tilts ,pkfire, and fsmash. That's all I have to say (sorry maku D: )
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<+Phiddlesticks> Lucas does not outclass Ness on the ground, with the exception of the tilts ,pkfire, and fsmash
<+Phiddlesticks> so... lucas does outclass ness on the ground
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Shaky, that is definitely enough to win Lucas the ground game debate. Ness has his grabs and PK fire... that's it! All of Ness's tilts are pretty awful and every smash except his yo-yo lucas does better.

I won't argue about air game though, Ness has the superior Dair, Bair, Uair and Fair. I'd say Lucas has the upper hand in the Nair department being a multi-hit sheild gnawing pseudo comboing aerial of doom.

Edit: Lucas ha better tits
 
<MrEsc> Lucas is worse on the ground
<MrEsc> nubs
<TheMantyke> and he actually has a grabbing game
<MrEsc> Lucas?
<MrEsc> lmao
<MrEsc> what a shitty grab
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I actually think it's 50-50 if not 55-45 on the ground. Ness' Dtilt is not awful at all, and Ness' dash attack is better than lucas' (evidence you left behind in your post Mantyke)
 
shaky said:
I actually think it's 50-50 if not 55-45 on the ground. Ness' Dtilt is not awful at all, and Ness' dash attack is better than lucas' (evidence you left behind in your post Mantyke)
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D-Tilts okay, yes I left out that part. I don't exactly see that as a tilt o' doom with such a small hit box and you having to be right in your foe's face for it to connect. Running attack is an awesome approach, yes Ness has that too.

Don't misquote me :(
<MrEsc> Lucas is worse on the ground
<MrEsc> nubs
<TheMantyke> and he actually has a grabbing game
<MrEsc> Lucas?
<MrEsc> lmao
<MrEsc> what a shitty grab
<TheMantyke> Ness's tilts (minus D) are all horrible
<TheMantyke> I said Ness actually has a grab game escman
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