Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

[Dunk]

Falco at 4th?

That seems a little high to me.

 

[Steeler]

Anyway, the next tier list is coming out soon. My predictions are already mentioned, oh and PT is definately moving up to C tier only because of how he can be considered "the #1 CP char"...though, the tier list is reliant on tourney results. PT doesn't have any major disadvantages (none below 30:70) and those are against MK, Marth and Snake.

well, he was two spots from C tier...

also MK is 40:60 or 35:65 while Snake may be even.

Squirtle is bottle of rape that's all the really needs to be said. He can make easy combos on the ground and make use of his aerials to setup for those said combos, edgeguarding and gimps. The fun part about Squirtle is the fact that he's so fast and, er, tiny.

yep everything links into everything when you are squirtle

Ivysaur is the only one of the three I have fun with. She's like... Captain Falcon in Melee, only with projectiles. Her ground game is very nice, ranging from the damage building Bullet Seed to the awesome Razor Leaf (which never decays) to surprise Vine Whip in your face. Her aerial game is decent, though I only use Uair and Dair if I'm about to be KO'd vertically and forget to DI. Where Ivy's aerial game really shines is her Nair and her Bair. Nair starts so many combos and can meteor (I think it's finishing the Nair at Ivy's back legs) while racking up damage. It doesn't have much landing lag either, which reduces the chance of someone punishing this move. Bair has decent priority but, it's range is why I love it. Ivy's Bair is long enough to keep most attacks away and her vines don't count as Ivysaur herself. I always use Bair for edgeguarding and (some of the time) approaches.

its aerial game is bad. it's just too situational. nair is easily punished if you don't shield poke, and has terrible range. this combined with ivysaur's sloooow air speed makes it a very unsafe approach. it's pretty good out of shield at least. bair is useless against grounded opponents...pretty good against aerial ones, especially if they are big and slow. but that's the case with a lot of ivy's moves. good in a specific circumstance. ivy as a character is just too situational...good thing you can decide on whether the situation is right to use it or not. plus the eternal paradox of ivy's zoning game:

you want to retreating bair them repeatedly and razor leaf and all that jazz to keep them away

yet the more you retreat, the closer you get to the fucking edge and box yourself in with your terrible mobility, thus setting up an easy gimp

bullshit

Charizard is just... Charizard is just... he's the best of the 3 imo. He's packed with powerful kills moves, great range, a nice aerial game, very quick movement on the ground, Flamethrower and oh, gliding. Charizard isn't really my ideal pick unless a match up is truely dependant on him (i.e, Ike), though he makes a very good CP against a good amount of chars like DK and (omg, EPIC!) Ivysuar. Charizard's ground game is insane; great ranged, quick moves and to the top it off, most of them have combo or kill potential. Flamethrower is a great way to build up % and is a decent way to get someone out of your face. Rock Smash is rape in a rock, I'm not kidding, any move that can do 40%+ in one go is great in my book. Fly is pretty useful to end combos with (I think it can be used OoS) but, that's really about it. I mostly glide to recover. Charizard's aerial game is alright... Fair gimps are funny.

squirtle's better, but charizard is still in the decent-to-good category in brawl. it's just that charizard is very easily juggled. one of the most juggle-prone characters in the game, by far. he also has terrible ledge options. but if you can avoid getting into these bad situations as much as possible, zard is good. his ground game is sooo good, mainly because of the dash speed + grab range. he has great out of shield options and good spacing tools. flamethrower is great.

All 'n all, PT is a nice char but, that fatigue screws him over >.>. Really, Lucario gets his aura boost, why can't PT's Pokemon get their abilities? Eh, I suppose it could be broken.

fatigue is not that big of a deal, mainly because stalling is banned in most tournaments. what screws him over is ivysaur, spacing characters (mainly swords), and how limited switching is. imagine if you could simply choose your switch order on the css? squirtle -> charizard -> ivysaur. how hard would that have been to implement? or you could switch during invincibility after death? how stupid was it to allow zelda/sheik to do that but not pt??? or pick which pokemon you switch to when you die or press down b (can't switch to yourself, obviously)? you could then feasibly never use a particular pokemon, yet you'd ALWAYS be forced to use 2 (unless you never die and never switch). what's so broken about that? sheik/zelda isn't forced to switch ever. pokemon doesn't force you to use all 6 pokes in your party, pt shouldn't have to either. of course this could all be solved simply by not loading an entire character in the middle of a damn match. :\

</rant>

anyway i'm kind of upset that pt rose so much lol. tied for second biggest improvement with wario, behind sonic. i don't think either character should have risen that much. :\ sonic +8 into mid tier? seriously?

also post 1500 lol

 

[Mr.E]

Most other low-tier characters don't have anybody out there showing people how good (bad) they really are. Sonic and PT have a big following and actually get SOME results, so it's been taken into account and oh hey they're suddenly "mid-tier."

ROB got pooped on. Whatever, ROB didn't suddenly get any worse, only the perception has changed. G&W got pooped on too.

 

[Darkerkrai]

Now that I've thought a bit about it, people are going to start finding ways to deal with us now >:(.

Eh, I've really never found Charizard's prone-to-being-juggled problem too bad unless it takes Charizard somewhere near 95%-ish. Seeing as how Charizard isn't going to be hit off of the stage with a good DI for a while, I honestly don't mind that extra damage on it. Charizard is just awesome, but:

its aerial game is bad. it's just too situational. nair is easily punished if you don't shield poke, and has terrible range. this combined with ivysaur's sloooow air speed makes it a very unsafe approach. it's pretty good out of shield at least. bair is useless against grounded opponents...pretty good against aerial ones, especially if they are big and slow. but that's the case with a lot of ivy's moves. good in a specific circumstance. ivy as a character is just too situational...good thing you can decide on whether the situation is right to use it or not. plus the eternal paradox of ivy's zoning game:

you want to retreating bair them repeatedly and razor leaf and all that jazz to keep them away

yet the more you retreat, the closer you get to the fucking edge and box yourself in with your terrible mobility, thus setting up an easy gimp

bullshit

Steeler... you made me cry.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Yay, Pikachu is climbing! Countering King DeDeDe sure is useful.
And woah at Sonic's giant climb. I guess I've only played against bad Sonics, because I had thought he was a lot worse than this says he is.

 

[CPU]

Steeler... you made me cry. [Response to Ivysaur is bad rant]

Ivysaur's not as bad as some think, but she's definitely the worst out of the three Pokémon. She has almost no approach, her recovery is pretty bad, and she's sent farther by fire attacks. She's also pretty slow.

She does have a few redeeming features, though, like exceptional range, incredible KO potential on a few moves (USmash anyone?), and the ability to gimp Meta Knight.


As for the tier list itself, I like it better than the previous one for the most part. I honestly don't see why Wario is so high up, but apart from that...
I'm fine with Mr. Game & Watch being lower than before, though, since it seems as though people have been figuring ways around his tricks. Sonic's placement looks more accurate now, as does Pokémon Trainer's.


And while some characters could be "higher," part of the reason they're not is because not every character can be very high up. While some characters may be better than their apparent placement shows, there's not room for 12 or so characters in Top tier.

 

[Steeler]

Steeler... you made me cry.

i know, the truth hurts. :(

Ivysaur's not as bad as some think, but she's definitely the worst out of the three Pokémon. She has almost no approach, her recovery is pretty bad, and she's sent farther by fire attacks. She's also pretty slow.

She does have a few redeeming features, though, like exceptional range, incredible KO potential on a few moves (USmash anyone?), and the ability to gimp Meta Knight.

the KO moves, like pretty much everything else about Ivysaur, are quite situational. fsmash is okay, it has invincibility frames and good range. uair has to bait airdodges or you'll never hit with it. usmash is just bad. here is the basic frame data on that move.

Up Smash:
Start up: 1-25
Hit: 26
End: 59

that looks like an ike move. but it's not. =[ and remember, your mobility sucks so that's not gonna help you hit it! plus the hitbox is really not that good for a move that slow on both ends of the lag. this isn't ike's usmash we are talking about. you might get lucky and someone stupidly air dodges as they are about to land, giving you a usmash opening...

the main reasons ivysaur is bad is because of that paradox and that the spacing is slightly above average...and this is a spacing dependent character with little approach we are talking about. MK, Samus, dedede, marth, ike, GW, and snake/zss to some extent all outspace ivysaur and limit its options severely. one is the bad mobility so you can't move your hitboxes and hurtboxes in and out of the opponent's spacing well, and all of the spacing moves are pretty punishable on shield. and ivy's grabs suck so shields are a problem.

imo the best thing about ivysaur is throws to bullet seed/uair/nair/lol usmash setups, keeping them in one of ivysaur's few good zones...above ivysaur.

also i can't believe affinity's ivysaur video has gotten this famous lol. thank god that's not my ivysaur.

 

[Minwu]

I think Wario is right where he should be, just like MK and Snake. He has the second best killing potential in the game, an air grab, bike braking, and can run the clock down to zero against basically any character.

 

[Steeler]

looks like someone finally gets it

and it's inui, of all people!!

PT is broken ... It's clear that he rapes every other character ... he's rated so low, lol ... it's a massacre ... we're all doomed.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7553620#post7553620

lol

 

[Mr.E]

I think Wario is right where he should be... He has the second best killing potential in the game

lolwut

 

[Minwu]

Yeah, 1:30 charged farts can kill at ~70% and you can Dair > fart. Plus, SA on Fsmash and a kill uair.

 

[Steeler]

oh also rob has always been bottom of high or top of mid, i remember thinking that him being 5th in the first list was just ridiculous lol.

 

[Mr.E]

MK, Snake, Falco, G&W are my easy top four... after that, I don't see what's so crazy about having ROB anywhere in the 5-10 range. Now he's a bit low I think.

 

[Stinkfist]

I can see Wario rising to third, albeit a little too high, but Pikachu at 9? C'mon.

 

[Minwu]

I can see Wario rising to third, albeit a little too high, but Pikachu at 9? C'mon.

Pikachu is now a CP to D3 and Snake due to its recently discovered CG on them; you can dthrow CG D3, Snake, and Falco from ~20 to 100% and above.

 

[Mr.E]

You say "now" as if Pikachu didn't already have a good match-up against them. But uhh, yeah, Pikachu is a pretty good character.

 

[Stinkfist]

Pikachu is now a CP to D3 and Snake due to its recently discovered CG on them; you can dthrow CG D3, Snake, and Falco from ~20 to 100% and above.

Shit I should try that out lol.

I'm going to grow to hate that rat (I main snake and TripleD).

 

[Minwu]

You say "now" as if Pikachu didn't already have a good match-up against them. But uhh, yeah, Pikachu is a pretty good character.

Ally's Snake raped Anther's Pikachu before the CG on Snake was discovered.

 

[Mr.E]

That's because Ally is better than Anther, not because Snake has a great match-up with Pikachu.

And I watched that shit in person, mang.

 

[ungulateman]

Capt. Falcon went up slightly! I'm assuming this is due to that new combo on ROB which actually allows you to hit them with either a sweet knee or a Falcon Punch at the end.

**sorry I don't have a vid or anything**

 

[StarmanXL]

Man, I was really thinking of getting back into competitive smash, but seeing my man Ness go down is just discouraging. Well, that and the only people I have to play against are assholes.

 

[Minwu]

That's because Ally is better than Anther, not because Snake has a great match-up with Pikachu.

And I watched that shit in person, mang.

Do you think anyone could do better than Anther with Pikachu, then?

 

[Steeler]

Capt. Falcon went up slightly! I'm assuming this is due to that new combo on ROB which actually allows you to hit them with either a sweet knee or a Falcon Punch at the end.

**sorry I don't have a vid or anything**

no, it's just that people realize that falcon is obviously better than ganondorf

link should most definitely be above both characters though.

 

[Thunderhorse]

link should most definitely be above both characters though.

Been watching too much Linkageddon eh? EEH?!

 

[Minwu]

no, it's just that people realize that falcon is obviously better than ganondorf

link should most definitely be above both characters though.

Link is a laggy, slow piece of shit; people don't know to PS his attacks and gimp him. The visual representation of many of his attacks such as Dair is also deceiving; they're not that disjointed really. At least Ganon has a techchasing CG and IASA or autocancelling on many attacks.