how u do that lists?
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Format Discussion Super Staff Bros 4 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter HiZo
- Start date
might edit my tierlist here at some point too when I stop being lazy!
Snorlax is an RU pokémon normally, and all you've done is given him a slight bulk increase, a slightly upgraded focus punch, and a neat but unreliable gimmick in assist. His offensive presence is unimpressive compared to the rest of the tier, and combined with his lack of recovery and his exploitable speed, it's hard for him to put in significant work.
It was a bit of a misguided attempt to try something new for Snorlax, I actually thought your mon was fairly solid in ssb3, being a massively bulky phaser that packed a very hard to ignore punch and some semi decent recovery. New set is missing most of these things sadly :/, I feel like it could probably do with some form of recovery, but also something to make it more consistent, like a weaker revenge effect on the moves or something, like a 1.2 power boost. The sig move could be 100 base power Drain Punch and it'd be leagues better already imo
Maybe make it so that the chance starts at 55% again, but permanently reduces after each successful use? (55, 45, 35, kinda thing)
Or it could just do something else? Honestly there's already like 3 iterations on the "single use insta kill" move in ssb4, you can always try something new if working around that move proves to be too much of a pain. I know I certainly wouldn't miss it :/
Unless there is a technological issue with Pokemon Showdown, we are not changing anything to something completely new.
The only thing we removed was the custom hazards because of issues with the client, were not changing anything else.
True facts Jett
| Person | Times used(?) | Times won(?) | Win % |
| Spectrier | 1613 | 970 | 60.14% |
| Mantine | 1605 | 919 | 57.26% |
| Zygarde | 1694 | 954 | 56.32% |
| Lampent | 1530 | 860 | 56.21% |
| Garchomp | 1663 | 930 | 55.92% |
| Yveltal | 1582 | 877 | 55.44% |
| Slaking | 1675 | 926 | 55.28% |
| Ludicolo | 1597 | 882 | 55.23% |
| Dragapult | 1496 | 820 | 54.81% |
| Pangoro | 1653 | 906 | 54.81% |
| Minior-Meteor | 1624 | 888 | 54.68% |
| Mimikyu | 1507 | 813 | 53.95% |
| Gengar | 1505 | 809 | 53.75% |
| Tapu Fini | 1634 | 878 | 53.73% |
| Leafeon | 1640 | 881 | 53.72% |
| Kingdra | 1609 | 856 | 53.20% |
| Carbink | 1559 | 829 | 53.18% |
| Piloswine | 1684 | 894 | 53.09% |
| Nosepass | 1717 | 910 | 53.00% |
| Mismagius | 1648 | 873 | 52.97% |
| Spinda | 1635 | 866 | 52.97% |
| Lotad | 1573 | 828 | 52.64% |
| Zapdos | 1670 | 879 | 52.63% |
| Archeops | 1686 | 887 | 52.61% |
| Volcanion | 1632 | 858 | 52.57% |
| Lopunny | 1522 | 799 | 52.50% |
| Xurkitree | 1711 | 895 | 52.31% |
| Venusaur | 1625 | 849 | 52.25% |
| Drampa | 1611 | 840 | 52.14% |
| Absol | 1778 | 927 | 52.14% |
| Latias | 1529 | 795 | 51.99% |
| Rhydon | 1660 | 863 | 51.99% |
| Munchlax | 1610 | 837 | 51.99% |
| Aegislash | 1556 | 808 | 51.93% |
| Azelf | 1520 | 789 | 51.91% |
| Lapras-Gmax | 1638 | 848 | 51.77% |
| Sneasel | 1703 | 881 | 51.73% |
| Gyarados | 1586 | 820 | 51.70% |
| Beedrill | 1619 | 837 | 51.70% |
| Weedle | 1670 | 863 | 51.68% |
| Unown | 1530 | 790 | 51.63% |
| Naviathan | 1586 | 818 | 51.58% |
| Phantump | 1572 | 810 | 51.53% |
| Mewtwo | 1579 | 813 | 51.49% |
| Uxie | 1539 | 789 | 51.27% |
| Celebi | 1536 | 786 | 51.17% |
| Froslass | 1578 | 807 | 51.14% |
| Oricorio-Pom-Pom | 1639 | 837 | 51.07% |
| Forretress | 1659 | 846 | 50.99% |
| Meloetta | 1446 | 737 | 50.97% |
| Klefki | 1622 | 824 | 50.80% |
| Dodrio | 1510 | 767 | 50.79% |
| Typhlosion | 1654 | 840 | 50.79% |
| Necrozma-Dawn-Wings | 1407 | 714 | 50.75% |
| Pichu | 1593 | 807 | 50.66% |
| Lycanroc | 1678 | 849 | 50.60% |
| Cinderace | 1633 | 826 | 50.58% |
| Shaymin | 1632 | 824 | 50.49% |
| Quagsire | 1633 | 823 | 50.40% |
| Cosmog | 1505 | 758 | 50.37% |
| Keldeo-Resolute | 1584 | 795 | 50.19% |
| Furret | 1475 | 739 | 50.10% |
| Hippowdon | 1643 | 823 | 50.09% |
| Nidoking | 1650 | 826 | 50.06% |
| Hattrem | 1658 | 828 | 49.94% |
| Tauros | 1661 | 829 | 49.91% |
| Gardevoir | 1546 | 771 | 49.87% |
| Hoopa | 1483 | 738 | 49.76% |
| Glastrier | 1704 | 847 | 49.71% |
| Mew | 1586 | 788 | 49.68% |
| Pancham | 1701 | 841 | 49.44% |
| Dragonite | 1602 | 792 | 49.44% |
| Jirachi | 1552 | 767 | 49.42% |
| Bisharp | 1660 | 818 | 49.28% |
| Darmanitan-Zen | 1513 | 742 | 49.04% |
| Charizard | 1600 | 784 | 49.00% |
| Wingull | 1514 | 738 | 48.75% |
| Chandelure | 1531 | 745 | 48.66% |
| Alcremie | 1672 | 812 | 48.56% |
| Weezing-Galar | 1701 | 826 | 48.56% |
| Jigglypuff | 1592 | 773 | 48.56% |
| Zekrom | 1634 | 791 | 48.41% |
| Polteageist | 1520 | 734 | 48.29% |
| Rayquaza | 1614 | 779 | 48.27% |
| Honchkrow | 1632 | 784 | 48.04% |
| Camerupt | 1569 | 753 | 47.99% |
| Orbeetle | 1628 | 781 | 47.97% |
| Stoutland | 1645 | 786 | 47.78% |
| Kirlia | 1563 | 746 | 47.73% |
| Runerigus | 1522 | 726 | 47.70% |
| Volcarona | 1688 | 805 | 47.69% |
| Lucario | 1666 | 794 | 47.66% |
| Aggron | 1683 | 802 | 47.65% |
| Espeon | 1491 | 708 | 47.48% |
| Kartana | 1639 | 777 | 47.41% |
| Mareanie | 1623 | 769 | 47.38% |
| Audino | 1703 | 806 | 47.33% |
| Duraludon | 1578 | 741 | 46.96% |
| Roserade | 1687 | 790 | 46.83% |
| Stonjourner | 1687 | 787 | 46.65% |
| Snorlax | 1694 | 790 | 46.64% |
| Garbodor | 1622 | 756 | 46.61% |
| Latios | 1558 | 724 | 46.47% |
| Reuniclus | 1630 | 757 | 46.44% |
| Shedinja | 1571 | 726 | 46.21% |
| Grimmsnarl | 1623 | 747 | 46.03% |
| Shiinotic | 1662 | 764 | 45.97% |
| Pikachu-Cosplay | 1682 | 769 | 45.72% |
| Jellicent | 1462 | 664 | 45.42% |
| Dunsparce | 1559 | 702 | 45.03% |
| Aurorus | 1754 | 788 | 44.93% |
| Misdreavus | 1562 | 700 | 44.81% |
| Toxtricity | 1640 | 732 | 44.63% |
| Mr. Rime | 1281 | 569 | 44.42% |
| Litwick | 1561 | 687 | 44.01% |
| Flygon | 1598 | 702 | 43.93% |
| Riolu | 1744 | 760 | 43.58% |
| Snom | 1664 | 723 | 43.45% |
| Palpitoad | 1578 | 664 | 42.08% |
| Gossifleur | 1703 | 678 | 39.81% |
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This was my tier list before the buffs and nerfs
Problem A: Lack of power
Before transformation, your best move is a 75 power ghost-fire move. 75 power is pitiful, even with STAB, and a lot of pokémon which would otherwise take a neutral hit, instead resist, meaning you either have to rely on an 80 power non-STAB dark pulse, or a 50 power non-STAB draining kiss to land a KO. Many pokémon Chandelure should be able to threaten with a STAB shadow ball can instead easily survive any attack, even at low HP, simply because they resists fire and your other moves aren't super-effective, or are 50 power. Setting up nasty plot would hypothetically solve this, but that leads us to our next problem
Problem B: Low speed, low bulk
The focus sash is supposed to help with this, but it doesn't. Vulnerable to every entry hazard, weakness to common attacking types like water, ghost, dark, and ground, and unimpressive defensive stats mean Chandelure can't take a hit. Unless the hit is resisted, Chandelure is chunked hard. Chandelure cannot switch into hits if you want to use it later on. If there are hazards up, you lose your sash; if there aren't, but you switch in to any attack, you also lose your sash. As such, the only way to effectively get Chandelure in is against either a wall, an aggressive prediction, or after a KO. Switching in against a wall is inadvisable, since Chandelure is supposed to be KOing things, and especially so as it cannot even OHKO the likes of Pangoro (Who is a physical wall 4x weak to fairy), Shiinotic (who is weak to fire), or even Gossifleur. Other walls who are not weak to your STAB move such as Darmanitan-Zen, Lampent (Who is faster anyway and OHKOs you), Stoutland, Jigglypuff, etc don't even get 2HKOd and can all retaliate offensively. Most can also heal off the damage you deal, something Chandelure is unable to do.
Problem C: Not really worth it
But fine, you managed to set up. Cosmog decided to stay in on you instead of switching to one of the many pokémon who can take the hit, or your focus sash stopped the sweep of a +3 +1 Xurkitree, and you're at +1 speed +1 SpA. Time to sweep, right? Well, probably not. Firstly, the aforementioned Baleful Blaze, even at 95 power, is still resisted by water types and dark types. Fiery Wrath isn't that much stronger than dark pulse, and if your opponent isn't weak to it, probably won't kill, especially since you don't have any boosting item. And light of ruin is a great option, if you also want to KO yourself.
At +1 SpA (Which isn't even guaranteed), the following pokémon do not get 2HKOd by any of your moves, or outspeed and deal more than 70%:
Mega Camerupt, Aegislash, Lotad, Quagsire, Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Mega Beedrill, Snorlax, Carbink, Shaymin, Mantine, Volcarona, Yveltal, Mimikyu, Drampa, Garchomp-mega, Uxie, Alcremie...
I stopped at the third row (out of nine) of pokémon. These are pokémon who do not die in 2 hits or beat you straight up, and for a lot of them, you have to click light of ruin to hit them for significant damage, meaning there's a good chance you don't even get a second attack. I excluded any mons which rely on RNG to win the matchup, like Dragonite and Dunsparce. The point is, after the difficult task of getting set up, there's a very good chance you'll be revengekilled. This problem is only compounded by the issue of hazards and low bulk.
Of course, Chandelure can put in decent work, but it will very rarely sweep, and is thoroughly outclassed by the myriad of better sweepers in the tier. The main useage it has in a game is revenge killing an opposing sweeper, who has already set up, assuming there are no hazards up, and who has already been chipped. There are a couple of solutions I can think of, depending which direction you want to take it.
1: Magic guard. This stops you from losing the sash to anything but direct damage, allowing you to efficiently set up, and allows light of ruin to be used with impunity once set up. You could also consider giving an additional fairy typing once set up to really make it hurt.
2: Moveset changes. Make the signature move better, or make the coverage more useful, or both. At the moment, the coverage offered by dark pulse and baleful blaze is poor (I'm not going to include draining kiss because it's too weak).
3: Make your ability include study, and hold a boosting item of some sort to make the KOs more feasible. If specs, I'd make the ability increase speed and SpA after a KO and remove the effect from Baleful blaze, and if not, I'd probably either choose a Z-crystal (partially getting around the problem of baleful blaze's typing), or a new item that you make for the mon (Life orb would make sturdy pointless, and spell tag isn't really enough).
I actually think the mon is great other than draining kiss is lackluster
What if Baleful Blaze had the higher of Ghost/Fire?
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As in it chose the typing based on which would do more damage? Or a higher base power?
The former.
I think that would help massively
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8superstaffbros4-1264211887 Alright, I don't know if this is the only 5 Star Effect GMars has, but it's a neat one. I wondered if there was like an ultra rare shiny variant, but I haven't found one yet. Just glad I got it in the form of a clip.
Why am I so bad 
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people who have played SSB far more than me think about my Toxtricity since there were concerns I would be too strong with Poison Pixilate (1.2x) instead of Liquid Voice (No damage amp - which is how it is now) but every tier list I've seen and the win rates point to me being bottom tier. I've only got myself a handful of times and its done alright but not been the extremely potent sweeper I envisioned.
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people who have played SSB far more than me think about my Toxtricity since there were concerns I would be too strong with Poison Pixilate (1.2x) instead of Liquid Voice (No damage amp - which is how it is now) but every tier list I've seen and the win rates point to me being bottom tier. I've only got myself a handful of times and its done alright but not been the extremely potent sweeper I envisioned.
yeah honestly I can probably give you poison-ate because youre due for a buff nowWhy am I so bad
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people who have played SSB far more than me think about my Toxtricity since there were concerns I would be too strong with Poison Pixilate (1.2x) instead of Liquid Voice (No damage amp - which is how it is now) but every tier list I've seen and the win rates point to me being bottom tier. I've only got myself a handful of times and its done alright but not been the extremely potent sweeper I envisioned.
Toxtricity is high maintenance, low reward. Setting up is often difficult, but not impossible, but it's all or nothing. The power from throat spray is pretty much necessary, but is only available once, and setting up nasty plot on top of genre change is unrealistic. But, as an all or nothing sweeper, your ability to sweep is poor, and falters in the face of strong special walls, poison resists, strong priority, or faster offensive threats. Volt switch being your offensive electric move is a large part of the reason why this is the case, as any poison resists either takes a non-STAB aura sphere, or a volt switch, which will cut your own sweep short. In addition to this, volt switch can be easily predicted, allowing the opponent to halt your sweep by switching into a grass type on the volt switch, and against ground types or unaware mons, Toxtricity can't do much damage at all, often just losing straight out.Why am I so bad
I am genuinely interested in hearing what people who have played SSB far more than me think about my Toxtricity since there were concerns I would be too strong with Poison Pixilate (1.2x) instead of Liquid Voice (No damage amp - which is how it is now) but every tier list I've seen and the win rates point to me being bottom tier. I've only got myself a handful of times and its done alright but not been the extremely potent sweeper I envisioned.
Then, once Toxtricity has been forced out, it's hard to, and often not worth putting back into a useable position. Without the power from throat spray, even Boomburst is relatively unimpressive in power, and Toxtricity needs to set up Genre change AGAIN first in order to pose a threat, because almost all of the offensive metagame outspeeds it. Combined with Toxtricity's average bulk, this means that it likely won't be able to get into a decent position again.
TL:DR
Too reliant on all-or-nothing sweep while using volt switch as your offensive electric move, and lacking in the power needed to cut through opponents after setting up.
Lies, every other tier list puts you at 'Strong Contenders' or higher