Suspect SV AAA Suspect #13: Dragonite

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Betticus IV

is a Tiering Contributor
OMPL Champion
:sv/Dragonite:
WHY:

Following the survey results and an internal vote the council has decided to suspect Dragonite! Dragonite boasts an impressive 134 attack stat with access to STAB Aerilate Extreme Speed, making it the strongest user of +2 priority, the highest bracket in the meta. Dragonite can use Dragon Dance to further enhance this already high damage output, and become one of the scariest set-up sweepers in the process. Alongside its offensive prowess, it possesses a great defensive typing, good bulk in 91/95/100, and access to immediate recovery in roost; allowing it to have longevity and multiple opportunities to come in during a game. Dragonite can run multiple sets, making it sometimes hard to tell exactly what your opponent has until it is too late.

On top of having access to a strong STAB priority move for one of the most potent offensive typings in the game; the real strength in Dragonite comes from its diverse movepool and plethora of options in dealing with its checks. Full physical sets can run Fire/Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Ice Spinner, and/or Stone Edge to hit checks such as Intimidate/Fluffy Corviknight, Pecharunt, Psychic Terrain Azelf/Deoxys-Speed, and Primordial Sea Zapdos respectively. Dragon Dance can be used alongside these options to muscle past the aforementioned checks even easier and become a powerful breaker/lategame cleaner. Dragonite also runs mixed sets with Flamethrower or Thunderbolt to take advantage of Corviknight’s weaker special defense.

What makes Dragonite even more problematic is that it can be hard to tell what a Dragonite is on preview, and can punish the player heavily if they do not have the proper checks and/or guess wrong on what coverage the Dragonite is sporting. On top of this, even with the proper checks, it can become especially difficult for teams to handle a Dragonite after a +1, as a vast majority of mons get OHKO’d or 2HKO’d by Extreme Speed and its coverage moves. Dragonite can find multiple opportunities to come-in and set-up, as it can usually invest near max HP due to Extreme Speed's priority bracket. This does not take into account Dragonite’s teammates, who can weaken its limited number of checks and let it come in to clean easier than ever lategame.

However, Dragonite is not a perfect Pokemon. It cannot run coverage for all its checks and is usually limited to only running one to two coverage moves due to the near auto-includes of Extreme Speed and Roost, which is further limited if one opts for Dragon Dance as well. These coverage moves can be scouted for to find out its full set, reducing its potency and surprise factor. Extreme Speed only has 8 PP, meaning against bulkier teams it can be stalled out. Mixed sets taking advantage of Intim/Fluffy Corviknight can instead be blocked out by the rarer Well-Baked Body or Volt Absorb Corviknight. Dragonite can have its priority blocked completely with Psychic Terrain and/or the Dazzling ability, preventing it from using key STAB damage and speed control. Although Dragonite’s typing allows for multiple resistances and even an immunity, it is rocks weak and 4x weak to ice, with multiple top tiers such as Great Tusk, Manaphy, and Swampert commonly running ice coverage. Finally, Dragonite has to choose on what item to run: with Life Orb providing crucial damage amp for OHKO’s at +0/+1 but in-turn a weakness to rocks and lorb chip. Heavy-Duty Boots provides greater longevity but reduced damage output. This makes other Pokemon such as Pixilate Scream Tail, physdef Manaphy, and Earth Eater/Choice Scarf Gholdengo better checks.

Due to all these reasons and the consistent discussion around this Pokemon, we have decided to open it to the community to decide its fate in the tier once again!

HOW:

During a Suspect Test, each player must climb the ladder until they’ve acquired the GXE necessary to participate in voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following guidelines.
  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site
  • Create a new account (creation date no earlier than today, August 14th) with "AAAITE "--for example, I could create one called "AAAITE Your Mom" to ladder with. Having the prefix at the beginning of your alt name is mandatory, AKA not in the middle (e.g. The AAAITE Man) and not at the end (e.g. The AAAITE).
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must meet the required GXE and games played threshold; it starts at 78% GXE at 25 games, down to 75% GXE at 40+ games.
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  • Dragonite will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
  • The suspect test will go for eleven days and end on August 25 at 10:00pm GMT -5
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Dragonite should be banned.(Optional)
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
With that all being said, it’s suspect time! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn’t necessary.
 
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this time randpoke gave me brambleghast. the idea was to leverage grass stab + polt vs common balance cores to dismantle them with proper prediction, as well as forcing out mana and swamp and tusk from full due to pwhip. in practice it was about as blind as a bat and didn't hit all that often, but when it did it was very funny (ohkos moon and zappy from full with stabs). probably fringe viable but i wouldn't seriously recommend it.

i was worried about dnite for a while but after playing and building some more it's fine. great movepool but it's seriously pressed cause it wants espeed/dd/tbolt/flame/spinner/quake/roost and it can't fit all of those on one set. like deos you gotta respect it and scout safely earlygame until it reveal mixed or dd (they give themselves away by item choice), and then play around that. espeed is also very useful for keeping faster mons in check and i think a shift to anti-priority speed control like psurge and dazzling clones isn't a sign that dnite is unhealthy. if you're using slow balances with immunity stacking i can see why it might be an issue, but in a tier where offense is the best playstyle and there are many things that wreck these balance cores i just see dnite as another one of them. i will be using it more before voting so my vote isn't set in stone but i'm currently thinking dnb so we can focus on other, cooler things like native ability clause.
 
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Almost got a second flawless run but as seen above it wasn't meant to be, oh well
Team used: :deoxys-speed: :primarina: :roaring Moon: :moltres: :great tusk: :skarmory:
Might be one of my actual favorite AAA teams ever made, might post about it if I don't forget.

As seen in the initial Suspect announcement I was found voting Ban for this guy, and I think in short it falls down to the restrictions that it causes in the builder. To consistently beat all forms of Dragonite, you need to either be running Psychic Surge + something that can sponge coverage or a really fat guy who has anti-setup measurements, with the latter option basically just boiling down to Unaware Scream Tail/Deoxys-D/Cresselia. Now, naturally, you don't have to have something that beats all Dragonite sets but then it basically just turns all Dragonite matches into "oh boy I sure hope they're not running that set", which doesn't sound very fun in my opinion. I also don't think any of the otherwise considered checks are really good into it, notably Zapdos and Pecharunt; Bulky Zapdos gets 2hkoed at +1 by LO sets (also folds to Ice Spinner coverage) while also lacking firepower to actually force it out, meaning that you have to rely on Zapdos bullshit to power through it or simply have something in the else that can handle the Dragonite, making Zapdos essentially useless as a check, while Pecharunt also has to pray for Malignant poison, as Extreme Speed is faster than Prank Dbond meaning that you're essentially put on a timer vs DD sets with recover PP. And to summarize it all; yes, STAB -Ate Speed is stupid as fuck and invalidates 90% of offensive counterplay. Despite it's merits as a solid Fire/Water/Grass resist & good speed control I think it's just a bit too much of a pain in the ass to account for so I will indeed be Ban.
 
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This was on my second account, but I tried with a whole new team that I made: :great tusk::roaring moon::gholdengo::swampert::scream tail::skarmory:
It struggles a bit versus Chien-Pao and Iron Boulder, however.

Voting Ban cause Dragonite is ridiculous. "Checks" like physically defensive Manaphy and bulky Primordial Sea Zapdos still need to be near full HP to beat it. It's wide variety of coverage also makes it quite difficult to switch into Dragonite, as it has moves like Ice Spinner / Stone Edge for Zapdos and Thunderbolt and Flamethrower for Corviknight and Skarmory. DDance sets are also very problematic if phys def Manaphy / Zapdos are below 60% HP. Extreme Speed also 2HKOes mons that can hit it super effectively or hard like Scream Tail, Swampert, and Roaring Moon, and lets not forget that Chien-Pao and Latios are OHKOed after Stealth Rock. Though this might likely lead to a suspect test with Volcarona, I'm honestly fine with that, cause this mon is just so ridiculous.
 
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27 games i'm so washed but this ladder is too lucky s/o ghostlike for getting every para he needed and then saying he outplayed me when he literally had a winning set and had to luck me... ban zapdos too, thunder hurricane buys you a career

ppl say dnite is fine and then loads 5 checks cuz you never know, not particularly broken (deo-s is more problematic but it's life) but still annoying af, probably voting no ban cuz skill issue but it's biased cuz ppl tend to play rly bad against dnite (iirc ppl sacked their checks in aaa ssnl semi / winner finals and it's common that ppl lose to DD dnite even tho it shouldn't win)
 
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im such a silly person, so silly in fact that i put the sus preffix wrong, but i talked with kaen about it.
TEAM: :SM/ROARING-MOON: :SM/PECHARUNT: :SM/CORVIKNIGHT: :SM/GHOLDENGO: :SM/SWAMPERT: :SM/HEATRAN:


I think Dragonite is a bit too much for the meta.Ironically, i barely saw any dnite be used, however i have how opressive it can be.Has a powerful extreme speed boosted by aerialiate, has roost for recovery, has flamethrower for the would be check in fluffy corv, has eq for tran, it has all the tools it wants and the problem is that u dont know what coverage ur opp chose to have on dnite until its too late.Some counters would be things like psysurge deos or other psysurge abusers like azelf, but these are still not that great at stoping dnite.Because of how much headache this fat dragon has caused me in general, i will be voting BAN :blobpex:
 
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To elaborate a bit further on why to vote DNB

:manaphy: :gholdengo: :corviknight: :zapdos: :pecharunt: :deoxys-speed: :scream tail: :iron hands: :azelf:

Here is a list of top tier mons that help deal with it. If you lose to dnite you don't know how to build or you missplayed (like what happened multiple times in seasonal where people sacrificed their checks both in semis and finals)
 
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Voting ban cuz annoying atha is one of the few things I like the most.

To elaborate more, I just don't like the mon. What changed about it since last time it was banned?

Yeah there's new counterplay in Zapdos (drops to Ice Spinner at +1 with LO or Ice Spinner + Espeed but otherwise good), Ghold (Scarf Adapt is fine as long as you can enter it safely), Pecha (get the poison but good), Mana (needs to be high in HP and Ice Beam), Deo (tbh Psurge Deo ain't that good to me so not really) and Hands (quite a safe one tbh with Ice Punch).

But we also lost some at the same time. Triage (Dkiss users) has been banned and was a counterplay. Because Triage was banned, Psurge dropped in usage which is good new for Dnite. Anti-prio abilities became super bad unless you're traumatized by Dnite which is pretty much the only viable prio user. Garga rest in peace with Garchomp (bulky Dtail was a ok counterplay). Unaware Stail sucks (it always did btw) and pixiboom really requires to be high in HP to deal with Dnite.

However, all combined, I recognize Dnite feels less annoying in the builder. Nevertheless, what remains is the unpredictabiliy bewteen LO 3 atk + DD/Roost, some 4 atk shit, DD Roost 2 atk and Band. So even without just winning by itself, Dnite can be decisive in a game by firing a Tbolt/Flame on a Corv, hurting a Zapdos with Ice Spinner or a EQ/Flame on Ghold. Everything is ofc bounded to what set it runs making Dnite an unpredictable annoying little shit that doesn't provide much to the metagame to me. It's still quite a frustrating inconsistent fish that wins too much for my taste. In terms of competitiveness, I don't find the mon to be competitive and good traits in speed control and defensive utility (not much) aren't enough to discard this. Also if Volcarona ends up being too annoying with Dnite banned, then ban Volcarona and let's broken not check broken.

Deo-A is also very annoying and maybe even more tbh.

Oh and you didn't see me here btw cuz I'm ofc still retired for as long as forever hehe
 
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