Announcement SV Monotype Suspect #5: Oops…I Did It Again (Baxcalibur Suspect)

[ken]

In the aftermath of the Gouging Fire suspect, the council has been discussing the best way to progress the metagame. Taking the survey results and community opinion into consideration, the council has decided to take tiering action on Baxcalibur via suspect.

After surviving a suspect in an older metagame, Baxcalibur finds itself on the chopping block once more. Baxcalibur has been acknowledged as a dangerous threat since the advent of DLC1, with access to various setup options, such as Swords Dance and Dragon Dance, combined with versatile, powerful STAB moves, consisting of Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, Scale Shot, and Glaive Rush. On Ice, Baxcalibur is backed by one of the best support Pokemon in the tier in Alolan Ninetales, which can set up Snow and Aurora Veil in one turn to provide Baxcalibur with tremendous bulk that allows the Pokémon to set up more freely. The main changes for Baxcalibur's status have come in the form of reinforcements on Dragon, notably Gouging Fire and Archaludon. The sturdy backbone constructed by these Pokemon allows Dragon to flourish in longer games, where Baxcalibur can pick the right spots to maximize its lethal impact. The threat of Baxcalibur is compounded by the fact that the Pokemon can act in the role of a wallbreaker and sweeper, which can result in guessing games on the best way to handle it until some moves are revealed. Defensive stats of 115/92/86 ensure that Baxcalibur can take a hit if needed, and being immune to the Burn status is a boon appreciated by any physical attacker, even if the ability has less relevance in most matchups.

Baxcalibur still has some flaws that hamper its ability to dominate the metagame. While Baxcalibur has the ability to run items like Loaded Dice, the lackluster hazard control on Dragon and Ice ensure that the Pokémon can easily be punished by Stealth Rock and other hazards, which results in Baxcalibur usually being restricted to Heavy-Duty Boots. The Speed tier of Baxcalibur is another limitation, as it can be outraced by a myriad of threats without increasing its speed. One pertinent example is Choice Band Excadrill on Ground, which can take a +2 Ice Shard when healthy and revenge kill with Iron Head.

Despite these limitations, Baxcalibur has proven itself to be a lasting threat that shapes the metagame. The important question is whether the various strengths of the Pokemon push it over the edge or if the weaknesses are able to hinder Baxcalibur enough for the Pokemon to be manageable. Members of the council have been encouraged to give their thoughts on Baxcalibur, and these can be found below.

Thoughts from some of the council

baxcalibur has fantastic support on both teams from aurora veil+snow on ice to an excellent defensive backbone on dragon giving it many opportunities to easily come in, click sd, then proceed to break everything slower than it with glaive rush/icicle crash, and beat faster opponents that could otherwise revenge kill it like enamorus. additionally, it can use scale shot to gain speed on top of its phenomenal wallbreaking power making it that much harder to revenge kill. overall on solid types, with plenty of bulk, and an offensive arsenal thats very easy to setup and has little to no drawbacks for using it

A wallbreaker and/or win condition that will almost always do work due to its natural bulk. Can be hard to revenge kill due to the possibility of ice shard, having a speed boost thanks to dragon dance, or due to aforementioned natural bulk. SD sets are by far the most oppressive in its arsenal, but accounting for one set and it ends up being something that wasn't anticipated can potentially be game defining (think SD vs DD, Glaive vs EQ, etc). In my opinion the mon that can be considered the reason for Dragon's dominance thus far. Would very likely vote ban.

I believe Baxcalibur is one of the key components to dragon's centralizing presence in the meta. More-so than any other dragon, Baxcalibur's perfect offensive profile has made playing any form of bulky playstyle into it feel miserable and sometimes downright unviable. Its power, coverage, bulk, ability, and access to stab priority make it tough to switch into and tough to kill, so I believe taking action on it is the correct choice.

I believe that Bax is too strong of an offensive powerhouse with well-distributed stats and a handy ability to almost completely nullify bulky builds. It's hard to make bulkier builds for any type (except maybe some Dondozo teams) because Bax can't be burned, is often able to soak up so many weak hits on the way to victory, and has great opportunity for bailout with its 30% flinch chance with Icicle Crash.

I don't necessarily think Bax is completely broken but would like to take a closer look (i.e a suspect). One of the best offensive typings + EQ coverage + a number of different sets (SD, DD, Loaded Dice, etc) + being able to run through a few opposing types on its own with 1 chance to set-up, I think it's worth suspecting

The ability for an already strong physical attacker prior to setting up to not get burned in combination with the potential for it to absorb some attacks while setting up, paired with its ability to flinch and access to a priority move, sets Baxcalibur apart as a threat to be reckoned with. Combine that with the excellent support it gets on either type-Snow + Aurora Veil on Ice or a myriad of switch-ins to common Baxcalibur counters on Dragon-and it's in a position to nuke some even more defensive team structures. While in a vacuum I think it's not terribly centralizing, the aforementioned support it receives clearly pushes it over the top, and I think a suspect test is warranted for it.

I have felt that Baxcalibur is an unhealthy presence in the metagame since DLC1, and the recent additions to Dragon have only exacerbated its threat. The ability to act as a wall-breaker (Swords Dance, Icicle Crash, Glaive Rush) combined with the capability to be a sweeper (Dragon Dance, Scale Shot, Ice Shard) makes it unreasonable to manage, and Earthquake serves as adequate coverage to hit Steels and other Pokémon that resist both STABs. In general, I feel the Swords Dance set is the most dangerous of the options it has, with the ability to punch holes in Flying, Ground, and other types after one boost.

His access to sd + dd with a really good combo of stab hard (especially with eq) make him really hard to be manage. His access to ice shard make him also hard to be revenge kill. It's really easy for the player of the baxca to at least break the defensive core of the opponent or take a game with just some good cheap. But imo the thing who justify the suspect, his globally his bulk who make him almost unoneshotable without a stab super effevtive move. Finally baxca abuse of the support of dragon and dragon abuse of the offensive presence of baxca (generally if baxca don't sweep, it let gouging/dnite/etc in really good position to sweep). In ice baxca abuse of the support of aurora veil and snow.

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In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 9] Monotype ladder in which Baxcalibur will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag BXR8 in order for your account to qualify. Tagging dhelmise to implement this on the ladder!

The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 40 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Friday, March 15th @ 11:59 PM EST (GMT-4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Baxcalibur will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Baxcalibur suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.

 

[Pengairxan]

Alright so post prepped in advance somewhat.
I'm set on banning this thing, if I can make reqs. (If I start feeling bitchy, my ass will be loading back into TF2 again.)

- Its constricting on the team builder as is one of three major threats (Chien-Pao and Gambit) that forces most teams to run a fighting type or a mon with good fighting-type options. (Like Body Press Skarmory for Flying)

- Its got major team support in ATales for Screen and Snowslash for removal (or just can run heavy duty boots and not have to worry about removal). While Dragon has Gouging (Still bitter) Arch + Hoodra for defensive support, Twaves from Arch and Drag or burns from Drag and Gouging which can enable it to easily setup, or blitz past what would of been a check to it otherwise.

- Speaking of ATales, it is incredibly bulky with snow with common super effective STAB from the likes of Iron Boulder, Sneasler and Great Tusk being unable to OKHO it even with NO investment.
For context, Iron hands, which has a base attack of 140, going all in on Physical attack totalling up to 416 using Close Combat only has a 25% chance to kill this thing in snow, that is stupid.

- Speaking of stupid, Thermal Exchange is stupid. Complete burn immunity stops slowing this thing down with Will-O-Wispers like Rotom-Wash and Galarian Weezing and an attack boost if hit by a Fire-type attack denys just clicking Fire moves into Ice-types because all it does allow this bitch entry, espessically on weaker fire-types that prefer the bulk like Salazzle and Moltres.

- At team preview it is impossible to tell what it is. Is it Boots DDance Crash? Dice SD Scaleshot? Boots SD Crash? And getting that guessing game wrong could, and often does, results in something dying or a game being won then and there.

- And while yes, its speed and defensive typing are bad. It doesn't matter if the only really consistent form of defensive counterplay that exists to it is switch Arch in on Icicle spear/Scaleshot for a Stamina boost (Nevermind, it was Crash, that plan is in the gutter) or have a Skarmory healthy and ready to IronPress up on it.

 

[Dragon Expert Soma]

Now this is finally crystal clear for me,you guys don't want it banned because of it's power,it is just to nerf dragon,you guys complained about gouging fire and it got saved and just 1 week after you made a suspect with bax,you guys don't even know how to dissemble.

 

[boomp]

Been saying ban Bax since the first suspect. ty council for the re suspect hopefully this time the community actually vote if they really want a threat to be gone or not. We're going to be ok yall trust -boomp

 

[Gorechomp]

Now this is finally crystal clear for me,you guys don't want it banned because of it's power,it is just to nerf dragon,you guys complained about gouging fire and it got saved and just 1 week after you made a suspect with bax,you guys don't even know how to dissemble.

Facts. This just seems like a despite attempt to nerf Dragon (especially when Chien and Kinggambit are far more overcentiallizing). That sad Bax is a bit too strong and I’ve always felt this. It basically beats Flying and Poison teams by itself as well as being the best competitive Dragon type atm next to GF. I’m pretty impartial but I’m leaning towards ban.

 

[BoringBaron]

I'm an ice user, and fire dragon type teams are extremely hard to deal with if not for Baxcalibur, especially Gouging fire. Not to mention the Ice-type roster is already fairly limited, he is just a good counter to fire and dragon, which are strong types to begin with.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

People saying "this is nothing more than an attempt to nerf dragon" are being silly. Bax was #2 on the Tiering Survey, and if we're being honest with ourselves, it likely would've been suspected second even if Gouging Fire HAD been banned. There was similar rhetoric used dishonestly by the Gouging Fire DNB party, and we see some of it here as well, but a mon isn't suspected because a type is broken. A mon is suspected because it's identified as being a contributor and/or cause to an unhealthy metagame, which in part will include the overcentralization or exacerbation of uncompetitive matchups, which people may attribute to a type as a whole. While it's important to look at the support a mon has and some bans have depended on cores for instance (gen 6 steel with aegi as ex), not to mention a type being most used will impact the meta significantly, I think it's detrimental to hyperfocus on the type it belongs to being top tier as the cause of a suspect. It certainly sets a bad precedent to do so.

In the case of Bax, I think there's a pretty general consensus that the only reason it didn't get banned last suspect, was the fact it was too early to tell for some of the voters. Right now I imagine Bax is seen as the easiest banvote of the usual suspects we see in these discussion threads.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

TheWyvernKing, don't offend people by calling them silly just because you don't agree with them.You have your oppinion and it will be respected but i also have my point of view,back up from a vast metagame knowledge of more than a decade here,especially regarding the dragon type.So, what i said earlier is obvious,the reason of the suspect is only to nerf Dragon because people generally don't like dragon and they don't like to see it as the best type right now.Up until gen 8,flying was in the position dragon is right now and i saw no one caring to suspect anything.Zamazenta,Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Chien Pao,Flutter Mane and Kingambit are the pokemon that should be suspected and possible banned but i see no discussions for then now,people just talk about Dragon.

As I said, most voters from the first suspect I'd talked to that voted DNB say that Bax should've been banned, and that they only thought it was too early to tell at the time. This isn't a matter of Bax being suspected because dragon had become too strong, this is a matter of people recognizing Bax should've already been banned and that it's presence in the meta is nothing but unhealthy.

Bax is a bane to bulky builds, it can be incredibly difficult to revenge kill thanks to it's crazy bulk, ice shard, not to mention ice having snow + screens. It's an insane mon to manage for it's ability to act as both a wallbreaker + sweeper, and I see as entirely uncompetitive. It was banworthy first suspect, when people took note of the defensive support Ice offered, but had ultimately not grasped the full picture for what it was capable of.

Since then with the change in support that Dragon could offer, the addition of Gouging + Archaludon in particular, has given Bax has alot more leeway. Let's not forget how people used to run on occurence, scarf Bax, to address some of the threats that Dragon struggled a bit more with at the time i.e Pao. Not to mention that there used to be alot more reliance on Bax as an Ice neutral defensively. The simple existence of two more bulky ice neutrals in my opinion had taken a pokemon which already should've been banned, and allowed it to avoid many of the previous stressors and potential team constraints that a weaker Dragon might've relied on Bax to help fill. I think that Bax was unhealthy before, and is ultimately more difficult to handle now.

 

[juleocesar]

I don't know if other people are with me here, but I just find frustrating how Baxcalibur limits both teambuilding and game decisions as a whole. After it sets a Swords Dance I am forced to go to that only one option that I planned in the builder to deal with it, and once it's gone or played around it's pretty much game for me. There aren't a lot of ways to manage because of its above-average bulk and access to priority, in addition to its colossal 145 base attack and burn immunity, not to mention team support (aurora veil on Ice, hwish + status spreading on dragon). Glaive Rush can be a nuke whose side effect is always circumvented by clicking Ice Shard in the following turn, and even then, it has got access to other tools (Scale Shot) which also have their own uses. Of course there are exceptions (such as Steel) which can handle Baxcalibur better than the other types, but the point stands.

I am not going to elaborate a lot on this post because my thoughts have already been exposed elsewhere, but I thought it would be cool to share my view (which could also be other people's view) in the sense that's not a Dragon-targetting for me, because as I have said, I find it very hard to play against it on Ice teams as well. In the end of the day, it can feel as ultimately as a Dragon target because you have to account its team support and in Dragon is where Baxcalibur shines more, but that's not to say the "objective is to nerf Dragon", but rather, misconstruct the fact that you have to prep for Dragon every single time when you are teambuilding. You are forced to prep in the builder vs baxcalibur in the current meta, and even then you can still lose to it. If you don't prep then your loss is almost always guaranteed once you face it, which is in fact very likely.

Finally, regardless if you are a Dragon expert or just enjoy playing Dragon in its current state, worry not because Dragon is still expected to remain solid if it goes. Furthermore, if teambuilding becomes less restrictive in a scenario where it gets banned, expect that players will spend less of their energy preparing against Dragon, which may turn out positively for you. It's much better competitive-wise (and more fun) playing a tier in which players can be more creative and more rewarded on how much they know the game, rather than simply playing the same 4~5 types or builds that are specifically meant to counter the same thing, even if your favorite type is on the top of viability.

 

[adjustments]

alright ladder was crazy af this time around but i finally got reqs so ill share my brief thoughts. by the way the council shared their thoughts in the OP which was a cool addition, and i can very much echo the majority of their thoughts. i am most definitely voting ban on this mon. i did the majority of my laddering with dragon and once bax gets an sd up it's very hard to stop. this is not the same baxcalibur that was running loaded dice back in october. the crazy thing about all of this is that dragon is still totally fine without bax... still probs top 3 in the metagame. even playing against it the same thing applies, one sd up and you borderline lose if you don't have some kind of crazy measure for it. there are even some cases where you are able to 1v1 archaludon if the opponent has not so much defense invested. the tier will be so so much better without baxcalibur and i have never felt so much stronger. seems like a lot of people are on the same page this time around though and maybe we will finally ban something. anyways ill quit the yapping now cuz im kinda nauseous from playing 40 monotype games in one sitting but excited to hear others thoughts. peace.

 

[Jahkem]

I believe there’s consistent ways each type deals with Baxcalibur and its friends. I am going into this post blind sifting through each types’ ways to checking/countering Baxcalibur. I’ll going through the types in alphabetical order.

DISCLAIMER: Keep in mind I’ll primarily be focusing on Baxcalibur and its influence on Dragon. I’ll talk about the teammates briefly when discussing predictions and gameplay but that’s it.

Bug

This is the most notable switch in to a lot of Baxcalibur’s shenanigans. Although, it mainly just forces out Baxcalibur. Maybe forgo Rapid Spin or Gyro Ball for Iron Defense? Seems viable to me.

SD/Banded Scizor obviously can punch through Baxcalibur and its teammates. Ice loses to damn the first few turns after Scizor clicks SD so I’ll ignore that type. Against Dragon, however, I’ve liked SD + Lum Berry. Most Dragapults will try to burn you to inhibit any progress to break the core. Running some speed and throwing on Close Combat can threaten the Steel Dragons and Knock Off for Dragapult.

Scarf Hera seems like a decent answer. It lives a +2 Ice Shard from Baxcalibur even after Rocks. Also, you don’t necessarily need to run Moxie on Scarf Hera, you could run Guts and have a boosted Knock Off ready for Dragapult if you switched into it. Or on the flip side, make the right prediction and Knock Off on the hard Dragapult switchin to you. Also handy at removing Gouging’s Boots as well. And obviously Heracross threatens the other Dragon types too with both its stab Close Combat and Megahorn. Probably can get away with SD with a Guts + Flame Orb set since most Baxcalibur run Adamant.

Typically, Scarf can OHKO most of the time but maybe SD can be ran for an OHKO with +2 Close Combat against non-Scarf Archaludon variants.

Overall, Bug has some convenient ways of dealing with Baxcalibur. Not too much deviation has to be made to change the matchup. Although, Bug still has a rough game.

Dark

The most common thing on Dark that takes out Baxcalibur. After a SD, either Icicle Crash or Sacred Sword kills. Choice Band straight up OHKOs. Although Archaludon lives both these Chien Paos from full HP, it’s only one time. And with how susceptible Dragon is to hazards, that won’t isn’t the case too often.

Non-EQ Baxcalibur are walled and forced out by Gambit. With Low Kick as an option, it can dent the defensive core of Dragon and Ice.

I’ve seen some Sub + Ddance sets do fine but I feel Scarf or Band does the job better. Leaning more towards Choice Band for the Dragon MU because Earthquake 2HKOs Archaludon while OHKOing everything else with Outrage.

Eviolite certainly has made this thing beefy, hasn’t it? Although it doesn’t live a +2 EQ, it easily tanks +2 from everything else Baxcalibur throws. It also can run Low Kick and could also allow Kingambit to run more bulky thanks to Bisharp being naturally faster.

The same standard Sableye, expect Foul Play over Knock Off. If you manage to click Foul Play against a +2 Bax, you OHKO.

Darkrai can cheese its way through anything with the Hypnosis sets. Or just simply clicking Focus Blast.

Providing Screens helps out a lot. Also, Twave isn’t too bad either.

Overall, I still believe Dragon vs Dark is a skill matchup. Plays can be made on both sides so it’s hard to look at everything on paper without playing the games. But with Dark still has good ways of handling Baxcalibur.

Dragon

Ditto.

Electric

Lives a +2 Ice Shard even after rocks. Iron Fist + Drain Punch + Life Orb kills.

Scarf Flash Cannon, that’s all I can see. Maybe Balloon with Iron Defense + Body Press.

Sturdy + Custap Berry is still a feasible set.

Scarf Draco can blow back unsuspecting players. Also, Bolt lives a +2 Ice Shard from full.

Overall, I don’t see Electric handling Baxcalibur consistently but that’s a given since this the second worst type in the meta.

Fairy

Basically every Valiant set bops Baxcalibur. Although, I’ve been playing around with SD Valiant with Lum Berry and it has handled Dragon consistently from the number of games I’ve played.

Unaware sets are viable, CM sets with Moonblast helps a lot.

The Loaded Dice sets have been less common so Mimikyu seems like it can handle Baxcalibur more often, or at least force it out.

Banded have been my favorite Azu set that puts out major damage. Near max HP EVs help you live a lot of hits which is what Azu needs to claim a kill on Baxcalibur and its teammates. Especially if you include Superpower in your set.

The max Def CM sets have really been effective against Dragon and great for drain tanking Baxcalibur, especially when they’re not running EQ.

Overall, this is Fairy. This type, along with Steel, is going to have the best time handling Baxcalibur and friends. Also, not factoring in screens helping significantly.

Fighting

I already stated in the Fairy button how Valiant takes Baxcalibur outback to be put down. Valiant doesn’t have to give up on much to keep Baxcalibur in check.

Probably the most notable Fighting mon that can go head-to-head with Baxcalibur. The Iron Defense set and Choice Band set can both handle Baxcalibur. Not much to explain about this mon.

Another good candidate that handles Baxcalibur quite nicely. SD sets and the Scarf set keeps that frozen Godzilla from rampaging as much on Fighting’s city.

A somewhat forgotten mon this generation on both its types. All of Keldeo’s sets can make life easier for Fighting. SubCM, Taunt + CM, Specs w/ Vacuum Wave, Scarf, the blueprint is there within Keldeo.

Scarf Hera threatens many of Dragons mons still on Fighting. CC + Megahorn is scary for Dragon. Along with keeping Knock Off on the set too.

Honestly, forgot this was back too. Before there was Great Tusk, there was Cobalion being Fighting’s premier physical wall. Extremely niche but it has enough utility in the Dragon matchup with Twave, Iron Head or Flash Cannon, CC or Focus Blast, pivoting with Volt Switch, etc.

In addition to Dire Claw shenanigans, Sneasler is just bulky enough to avoid being KO’d by +2 Ice Shard from full. And on the flip side, avoids dying to Ice Shard at -2 Def after clicking Close Combat twice. I feel that’s a nice thing to remember during crucial turns for the mid-late game for this matchup.

Overall, Fighting as a whole threatens half of Dragon’s standard composition (3/4 if the team is running Roaring Moon). Fighting doesn’t have to shift around too much to have a fair chance against Dragon with things like Zamazenta and Valiant looming over them or having helpful teammates like Urshifu or Sneasler.

Fire

The most obvious one, but you need to be setup before Baxcalibur comes in. Unless you’re running a Choice Band set or max Speed Ddance sets.

+2 Ivy Cudgel kills, of course. However, Baxcalibur won’t really stay in against that. Hearthflame’s usual Dragon coverage is Play Rough, which is fine. However, give how Dragon teams are usually built, Superpower would be a great option too. Also, leading Hearthflame in the Dragon matchup can get you good traction. Some people lead Archaludon to set rocks turn 1. Hearthflame can SD and click Superpower to drop Archaludon and still have room to hit something else.

Everyone has lost to this thing’s Sash+Weak Armor set. Before it got Poltergeist, it was using Close Combat with Shadow Sneak being its only Ghost move. I don’t see a problem with running that again since +2 from this mon can be devastating. Even worse if it can Bitter Blade up to full from killing something like a slightly chipped Goodra-H or off Baxcalibur itself.

There’s some funky things you can pull with Infernape. It has loose similarities to Valiant where you can go with different offensive capabilities to put a blow into Dragon. A mixed LO set in the Sun can OHKO both Steel Dragons just by putting the NatDex RU set/spread in the calc. 96 Atk EVs OHKO Goodra and 160 SpA Fire Blast in the Sun OHKO Archaludon.

Scarf or Band sets can make things interesting in this matchup. Even a niche HDB set could make a difference.

Overall, Fire is going to have a rough time with Dragon no matter what. This is historically Monotype’s mop lopsided matchup, even more so than Steel vs Ice. Only more experienced players using Fire can beat less experienced players using Dragon. And even then, Fire’s margin for error is substantially smaller than Dragon’s.

Flying

Most prevalent Baxcalibur check. The Iron Defense + Body Press set keeps Baxcalibur at bay. Some go as far as using Covert Cloak to prevent Icicle Crash flinches from stealing the game away. There’s also Whirlwind to deter Baxcalibur from setting up and sweeping away. Heck, you could give up hazards and run Whirlwind.

In the same vein as Skarmory, Corviknight can run the same setup sweeping set.

There’s a defensive Intimidate set that can somewhat check Baxcalibur. Although, this is a set and spread I copied from roxie who has Rest over Dragon Dance.

Overall, Flying has a rough time with Baxcalibur as a whole if it sets up before the metal birds. It’s a mind game and a lot of playmaking that goes into this matchup.

Ghost

There’s the bulky specs set. I’m not completely sold on it but it lives a +2 Ice Shard even after rocks. So, there’s a lot a merit to this set outside of just the Dragon matchup since this is one of the analysis spreads for Flutter in Mono.

On Ghost, Close Combat is an even strong option with so much Ghost stab already on most Ghost teams.

Like I said, less Loaded Dice sets mean more value out of Mimikyu.

Balloon sets are strong, or you can bait players with a Shuca Berry if Baxcalibur is running Earthquake. And, of course, Scarf Gholdengo can do wonders.

Overall, Ghost has a decent matchup against Dragon. There’s a couple of niche things I didn’t list like Yache Berry Dragapult or using Illusion to disguise as Gholdengo to dissuade an Ice Shard so you Focus Blast in return with Zoroark-H. But there’s innovative was to go about the matchup.

Grass

Now I will list Lilligant-H as a Yache Berry user here since it has some merit. Council member,Trichotomy mentioned in a post on the metagame thread how a well played Lilligant-H can do the job and with Yache Berry, that’s some job security.

As mentioned in the Fire button, Superpower covers Baxcalibur and its teammates well enough to make it a game.

If you can keep Sturdy in tact, this can be an annoying threat like Breloom. And it can also run Superpower to threaten Dragon.

Like Hearthflame, doesn’t immediately drop to +2 Ice Shard

I didn’t really want to list this but I guess Aurora Veil warrants enough of a niche to be listed. Although, it’s kinda counterintuitive since it makes Baxcalibur bulkier against a type mainly consisting of physical attackers these days.

If you can keep the Focus Sash in tact, Breloom can be an annoying threat with Rock Tomb.

Prankster Memento or Stun Spore and Pixie Plate Moonblast. Maybe another Yache Berry can work. That’s about it.

:chestnaught: Another Iron Defense + Body Press user. Not much else.

Overall, like Electric and Fire, Grass is a type that will struggle with Dragon no matter what. The matchup will always be in Dragon’s favor.

Ground

Scarf and Band sets are effective.

Sash or Choice Band sets threaten Baxcalibur and Dragon as a whole.

Scarf or Bulk Up sets remain scary.

Curse sets with Body Press are niche but can make a difference. Similar to Skarmory, a Covert Cloak can be ran to not have Icicle Crash flinch the game away. Quagsire can run Counter really blowback Baxcalibur. But a standard set with Toxic can be just fine as well bar flinches from Icicle Crash.

Overall, Ground has a great matchup into Dragon. It’s threatened heavily by Sand Rush Excadrill and Mamoswine with room to have Quagsire as a fail safe.

Ice

Ditto.

Doesn’t have to run Iron Defense, it can run Avalanche with much success. But this is the premier defensive stopper to Baxcalibur.

Banded and SD sets threaten the well being of Dragon and Baxcalibur as a whole.

In addition to Aurora Veil and Snow allowing Ice teams to fend off opposing Baxcalibur, there’s the niche Specs set that can catch people off guard.

Sash and Banded sets are a threat to Baxcalibur and its friends.

Somewhat forgotten member that greatly threatens the well being of Baxcalibur and friends.

A defensive Shell Smash set can put a hurting on Baxcalibur and friends. But there’s still Archaludon in the way. You’d have to chip it down before you can get to Baxcalibur with this.

Sash Counter is there, not much else.

Overall, Ice has ways around Dragon that can pull a great number of wins.

Normal

Ditto.

Foul Play makes things easier for Normal to revenge kill Baxcalibur.

Picking the right Illusion order can be the game changer for a well placed Focus Blast to take out Baxcalibur.

Has access to Aura Sphere and Flash cannon. Defensive CM sets can claim some kills against Baxcalibur.

Another Yache Berry user. Honestly, Ursaluna’s item slot is flexible since it hits so hard and is extremely bulky. Yache wouldn’t be a heavy adjustment to secure a win.

Specs, or really any max SpA and Speed set with Focus Blast, can make a Baxcalibur holler.

Overall, Normal has the tools available to keep Dragon at bay. There’s certainly plays that can be made to keep the

Poison

Shoutout to Pengairxan for the Scarf Doge. Has access to Counter too. Do with that what you will. A gimmicky set I thought of that only Peng would use to using Endure to trick a Baxcalibur player into thinking you’re Custap or Salac Berry then clicking Upper Hand when they Ice Shard.

Sneasler has many innovative sets from the different Sash variations, HDB sets, Scarf, Band, the whole nine yards. And as mentioned, it doesn’t drop to a +2 Ice Shard which is convenient.

In same post by Trich I referenced in the Grass button, swapping Will o Wisp for Toxic makes the matchup even more playable.

The most I can come up with here is using a Shuca Berry then some Recover + Protect shenanigans once you manage to poison Baxcalibur.

Specs Overheat OHKOs Baxcalibur from full.

Overall, I think the most significant adjustment for Poison would be using Toxic on GWeezing to make it a game. Sneasler can punch holes as well. Sorry, Peng, I couldn’t come up with anything new that you may have not already tried.

Psychic

Iron Defense + Body Press is a helluva drug.

Nasty Plot sets can hit hard with Psycho Boost + Focus Blast.

Defensive CM with Trick Room is still great.

Specs or CM sets with Tachyon Cutter and/or Focus Blast.

Scarf Iron Head can get the job done along with Healing Wish utility to bring something like Slowbro back to full.

Shuca or Balloon sets can make a difference. Even a Scarf Meteor Mash can net a KO majority of the time.

SD or Banded sets hurt a lot and aren’t thwarted by +2 Ice Shards.

Scarf Sharpness Sacred Sword.

CM + Acid Armor sets are still around.

The same song and dance of Iron Defense + Body Press.

Overall, Psychic is sort of a matchup fishing type and Dragon is one of the types that can Psychic can tailor to beat. Regardless of that, there’s still compositions that can matchup well against Dragon without fully committing everything and compromising other matchups.

Rock

SD and Banded sets help.

Scarf and Banded sets are so valuable, but SD sets have some merit too.

As preciously mentioned with the other forms, Superpower can be used over Play Rough to pose a greater threat to Dragon. Also, if you can keep Sturdy in tact, Cornerstone can be an annoying threat.

CM + Iron Defense can make a difference in some cases. The set combines things that Dragon hates like Draining Kiss and Body Press.

Solid Rock + Max Def allows Rhyperior to tank a +2 Icicle Crash and revenge with Counter.

Like I mentioned before, Scarf and Banded sets make the matchup interesting. Along with the niche HDB sets.

If this sets up before Baxcalibur, then it’s a done deal. This is Rock’s savior after all. Iron Defense + Body Press is great. You can also opt to run max Def to make it easier to setup.

SD Kleavor has a niche that can poke a couple holes in Dragon.

Overall, Rock is gonna have a tough time with Dragon just like Electric, Grass, and Fire. Doesn’t help that this is the worst type in the meta. There’s cheesy things that can work against Dragon and other matchups but it still feels like an inconsistent and unattainable matchup.

Steel

Stamina and access to Body Press makes it a great check to Baxcalibur. Also, the Scarf Draco sets have to be strongly accounted for by Dragon teams.

Scarf Drill still hurts.

Iron Defense + Body Press or Whirlwind to phase out Baxcalibur.

Iron Defense + Body Press

Banded and SD sets with CC are threatening.

CM + Iron Defense set, as well as screens, can be dangerous for Baxcalibur and friends.

Balloon, Shuca, and Scarf sets all have great value.

Scarf Iron Head is still effective with Healing Wish support.

The comeback king has access to Low Kick for great coverage against Dragon. Still hinges on non-EQ Baxcalibur.

Specs and CM sets can be a threat when piloted correctly.

Overall, Steel is arguably the second best type in the meta and has every tool available to handle Dragon. Naturally resists the stab, immunity core, great priority options and an Archaludon of their own.

Water

Max Def CM sets are extremely effective on balanced Water compositions.

The best Unaware user to stifle Baxcalibur from sweeping. RestTalk sets with Body Press make Dondozo a true stopper to Baxcalibur.

SD, Band, Scarf sets get in Baxcalibur’s way of punching holes through Water teams.

CM and Specs sets can deter many Baxcalibur and its teammates from making progress against Water.

Curse + Body Press or just running Toxic can get in the way of Baxcalibur.

Although this competes with Greninja for a spot on Water teams, the Specs set is still deadly to Baxcalibur and its teammates.

On Rain Water teams, this is similar to Wake where it drops Dracos that punch holes.

Bulky Band does a great job at tanking and killing.

Banded CC OHKOs

Defensive Intimidate with Dragon Tail can phase out Baxcalibur.

Like I mentioned before, Superpower over Play Rough to threaten Baxcalibur and the other Dragon teammates. Also doesn’t drop to +2 Ice Shard.

Overall, Water can have a great matchup against Baxcalibur when using assets like Primarina, Dondozo, Urshifu, etc. It also helps that Water naturally resists Baxcalibur’s Ice stab.

If anyone wants to add to the lists, then feel free to let me know.

Also, keep in mind that these are ways that each type can handle Baxcalibur on paper. The real test and experience comes with playing the games and learning the plays and courses of action.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I believe there’s consistent ways each type deals with Baxcalibur and its friends. I am going into this post blind sifting through each types’ ways to checking/countering Baxcalibur. I’ll going through the types in alphabetical order.

DISCLAIMER: Keep in mind I’ll primarily be focusing on Baxcalibur and its influence on Dragon. I’ll talk about the teammates briefly when discussing predictions and gameplay but that’s it.

Bug

This is the most notable switch in to a lot of Baxcalibur’s shenanigans. Although, it mainly just forces out Baxcalibur. Maybe forgo Rapid Spin or Gyro Ball for Iron Defense? Seems viable to me.

SD/Banded Scizor obviously can punch through Baxcalibur and its teammates. Ice loses to damn the first few turns after Scizor clicks SD so I’ll ignore that type. Against Dragon, however, I’ve liked SD + Lum Berry. Most Dragapults will try to burn you to inhibit any progress to break the core. Running some speed and throwing on Close Combat can threaten the Steel Dragons and Knock Off for Dragapult.

Scarf Hera seems like a decent answer. It lives a +2 Ice Shard from Baxcalibur even after Rocks. Also, you don’t necessarily need to run Moxie on Scarf Hera, you could run Guts and have a boosted Knock Off ready for Dragapult if you switched into it. Or on the flip side, make the right prediction and Knock Off on the hard Dragapult switchin to you. Also handy at removing Gouging’s Boots as well. And obviously Heracross threatens the other Dragon types too with both its stab Close Combat and Megahorn. Probably can get away with SD with a Guts + Flame Orb set since most Baxcalibur run Adamant.

Typically, Scarf can OHKO most of the time but maybe SD can be ran for an OHKO with +2 Close Combat against non-Scarf Archaludon variants.

Overall, Bug has some convenient ways of dealing with Baxcalibur. Not too much deviation has to be made to change the matchup. Although, Bug still has a rough game.

Dark

The most common thing on Dark that takes out Baxcalibur. After a SD, either Icicle Crash or Sacred Sword kills. Choice Band straight up OHKOs. Although Archaludon lives both these Chien Paos from full HP, it’s only one time. And with how susceptible Dragon is to hazards, that won’t isn’t the case too often.

Non-EQ Baxcalibur are walled and forced out by Gambit. With Low Kick as an option, it can dent the defensive core of Dragon and Ice.

I’ve seen some Sub + Ddance sets do fine but I feel Scarf or Band does the job better. Leaning more towards Choice Band for the Dragon MU because Earthquake 2HKOs Archaludon while OHKOing everything else with Outrage.

Eviolite certainly has made this thing beefy, hasn’t it? Although it doesn’t live a +2 EQ, it easily tanks +2 from everything else Baxcalibur throws. It also can run Low Kick and could also allow Kingambit to run more bulky thanks to Bisharp being naturally faster.

The same standard Sableye, expect Foul Play over Knock Off. If you manage to click Foul Play against a +2 Bax, you OHKO.

Darkrai can cheese its way through anything with the Hypnosis sets. Or just simply clicking Focus Blast.

Providing Screens helps out a lot. Also, Twave isn’t too bad either.

Overall, I still believe Dragon vs Dark is a skill matchup. Plays can be made on both sides so it’s hard to look at everything on paper without playing the games. But with Dark still has good ways of handling Baxcalibur.

Dragon

Ditto.

Electric

Lives a +2 Ice Shard even after rocks. Iron Fist + Drain Punch + Life Orb kills.

Scarf Flash Cannon, that’s all I can see. Maybe Balloon with Iron Defense + Body Press.

Sturdy + Custap Berry is still a feasible set.

Scarf Draco can blow back unsuspecting players. Also, Bolt lives a +2 Ice Shard from full.

Overall, I don’t see Electric handling Baxcalibur consistently but that’s a given since this the second worst type in the meta.

Fairy

Basically every Valiant set bops Baxcalibur. Although, I’ve been playing around with SD Valiant with Lum Berry and it has handled Dragon consistently from the number of games I’ve played.

Unaware sets are viable, CM sets with Moonblast helps a lot.

The Loaded Dice sets have been less common so Mimikyu seems like it can handle Baxcalibur more often, or at least force it out.

Banded have been my favorite Azu set that puts out major damage. Near max HP EVs help you live a lot of hits which is what Azu needs to claim a kill on Baxcalibur and its teammates. Especially if you include Superpower in your set.

The max Def CM sets have really been effective against Dragon and great for drain tanking Baxcalibur, especially when they’re not running EQ.

Overall, this is Fairy. This type, along with Steel, is going to have the best time handling Baxcalibur and friends. Also, not factoring in screens helping significantly.

Fighting

I already stated in the Fairy button how Valiant takes Baxcalibur outback to be put down. Valiant doesn’t have to give up on much to keep Baxcalibur in check.

Probably the most notable Fighting mon that can go head-to-head with Baxcalibur. The Iron Defense set and Choice Band set can both handle Baxcalibur. Not much to explain about this mon.

Another good candidate that handles Baxcalibur quite nicely. SD sets and the Scarf set keeps that frozen Godzilla from rampaging as much on Fighting’s city.

A somewhat forgotten mon this generation on both its types. All of Keldeo’s sets can make life easier for Fighting. SubCM, Taunt + CM, Specs w/ Vacuum Wave, Scarf, the blueprint is there within Keldeo.

Scarf Hera threatens many of Dragons mons still on Fighting. CC + Megahorn is scary for Dragon. Along with keeping Knock Off on the set too.

Honestly, forgot this was back too. Before there was Great Tusk, there was Cobalion being Fighting’s premier physical wall. Extremely niche but it has enough utility in the Dragon matchup with Twave, Iron Head or Flash Cannon, CC or Focus Blast, pivoting with Volt Switch, etc.

In addition to Dire Claw shenanigans, Sneasler is just bulky enough to avoid being KO’d by +2 Ice Shard from full. And on the flip side, avoids dying to Ice Shard at -2 Def after clicking Close Combat twice. I feel that’s a nice thing to remember during crucial turns for the mid-late game for this matchup.

Overall, Fighting as a whole threatens half of Dragon’s standard composition (3/4 if the team is running Roaring Moon). Fighting doesn’t have to shift around too much to have a fair chance against Dragon with things like Zamazenta and Valiant looming over them or having helpful teammates like Urshifu or Sneasler.

Fire

The most obvious one, but you need to be setup before Baxcalibur comes in. Unless you’re running a Choice Band set or max Speed Ddance sets.

+2 Ivy Cudgel kills, of course. However, Baxcalibur won’t really stay in against that. Hearthflame’s usual Dragon coverage is Play Rough, which is fine. However, give how Dragon teams are usually built, Superpower would be a great option too. Also, leading Hearthflame in the Dragon matchup can get you good traction. Some people lead Archaludon to set rocks turn 1. Hearthflame can SD and click Superpower to drop Archaludon and still have room to hit something else.

Everyone has lost to this thing’s Sash+Weak Armor set. Before it got Poltergeist, it was using Close Combat with Shadow Sneak being its only Ghost move. I don’t see a problem with running that again since +2 from this mon can be devastating. Even worse if it can Bitter Blade up to full from killing something like a slightly chipped Goodra-H or off Baxcalibur itself.

There’s some funky things you can pull with Infernape. It has loose similarities to Valiant where you can go with different offensive capabilities to put a blow into Dragon. A mixed LO set in the Sun can OHKO both Steel Dragons just by putting the NatDex RU set/spread in the calc. 96 Atk EVs OHKO Goodra and 160 SpA Fire Blast in the Sun OHKO Archaludon.

Scarf or Band sets can make things interesting in this matchup. Even a niche HDB set could make a difference.

Overall, Fire is going to have a rough time with Dragon no matter what. This is historically Monotype’s mop lopsided matchup, even more so than Steel vs Ice. Only more experienced players using Fire can beat less experienced players using Dragon. And even then, Fire’s margin for error is substantially smaller than Dragon’s.

Flying

Most prevalent Baxcalibur check. The Iron Defense + Body Press set keeps Baxcalibur at bay. Some go as far as using Covert Cloak to prevent Icicle Crash flinches from stealing the game away. There’s also Whirlwind to deter Baxcalibur from setting up and sweeping away. Heck, you could give up hazards and run Whirlwind.

In the same vein as Skarmory, Corviknight can run the same setup sweeping set.

There’s a defensive Intimidate set that can somewhat check Baxcalibur. Although, this is a set and spread I copied from roxie who has Rest over Dragon Dance.

Overall, Flying has a rough time with Baxcalibur as a whole if it sets up before the metal birds. It’s a mind game and a lot of playmaking that goes into this matchup.

Ghost

There’s the bulky specs set. I’m not completely sold on it but it lives a +2 Ice Shard even after rocks. So, there’s a lot a merit to this set outside of just the Dragon matchup since this is one of the analysis spreads for Flutter in Mono.

On Ghost, Close Combat is an even strong option with so much Ghost stab already on most Ghost teams.

Like I said, less Loaded Dice sets mean more value out of Mimikyu.

Balloon sets are strong, or you can bait players with a Shuca Berry if Baxcalibur is running Earthquake. And, of course, Scarf Gholdengo can do wonders.

Overall, Ghost has a decent matchup against Dragon. There’s a couple of niche things I didn’t list like Yache Berry Dragapult or using Illusion to disguise as Gholdengo to dissuade an Ice Shard so you Focus Blast in return with Zoroark-H. But there’s innovative was to go about the matchup.

Grass

Now I will list Lilligant-H as a Yache Berry user here since it has some merit. Council member,Trichotomy mentioned in a post on the metagame thread how a well played Lilligant-H can do the job and with Yache Berry, that’s some job security.

As mentioned in the Fire button, Superpower covers Baxcalibur and its teammates well enough to make it a game.

If you can keep Sturdy in tact, this can be an annoying threat like Breloom. And it can also run Superpower to threaten Dragon.

Like Hearthflame, doesn’t immediately drop to +2 Ice Shard

I didn’t really want to list this but I guess Aurora Veil warrants enough of a niche to be listed. Although, it’s kinda counterintuitive since it makes Baxcalibur bulkier against a type mainly consisting of physical attackers these days.

If you can keep the Focus Sash in tact, Breloom can be an annoying threat with Rock Tomb.

Prankster Memento or Stun Spore and Pixie Plate Moonblast. Maybe another Yache Berry can work. That’s about it.

:chestnaught: Another Iron Defense + Body Press user. Not much else.

Overall, like Electric and Fire, Grass is a type that will struggle with Dragon no matter what. The matchup will always be in Dragon’s favor.

Ground

Scarf and Band sets are effective.

Sash or Choice Band sets threaten Baxcalibur and Dragon as a whole.

Scarf or Bulk Up sets remain scary.

Curse sets with Body Press are niche but can make a difference. Similar to Skarmory, a Covert Cloak can be ran to not have Icicle Crash flinch the game away. Quagsire can run Counter really blowback Baxcalibur. But a standard set with Toxic can be just fine as well bar flinches from Icicle Crash.

Overall, Ground has a great matchup into Dragon. It’s threatened heavily by Sand Rush Excadrill and Mamoswine with room to have Quagsire as a fail safe.

Ice

Ditto.

Doesn’t have to run Iron Defense, it can run Avalanche with much success. But this is the premier defensive stopper to Baxcalibur.

Banded and SD sets threaten the well being of Dragon and Baxcalibur as a whole.

In addition to Aurora Veil and Snow allowing Ice teams to fend off opposing Baxcalibur, there’s the niche Specs set that can catch people off guard.

Sash and Banded sets are a threat to Baxcalibur and its friends.

Somewhat forgotten member that greatly threatens the well being of Baxcalibur and friends.

A defensive Shell Smash set can put a hurting on Baxcalibur and friends. But there’s still Archaludon in the way. You’d have to chip it down before you can get to Baxcalibur with this.

Sash Counter is there, not much else.

Overall, Ice has ways around Dragon that can pull a great number of wins.

Normal

Ditto.

Foul Play makes things easier for Normal to revenge kill Baxcalibur.

Picking the right Illusion order can be the game changer for a well placed Focus Blast to take out Baxcalibur.

Has access to Aura Sphere and Flash cannon. Defensive CM sets can claim some kills against Baxcalibur.

Another Yache Berry user. Honestly, Ursaluna’s item slot is flexible since it hits so hard and is extremely bulky. Yache wouldn’t be a heavy adjustment to secure a win.

Specs, or really any max SpA and Speed set with Focus Blast, can make a Baxcalibur holler.

Overall, Normal has the tools available to keep Dragon at bay. There’s certainly plays that can be made to keep the

Poison

Shoutout to Pengairxan for the Scarf Doge. Has access to Counter too. Do with that what you will. A gimmicky set I thought of that only Peng would use to using Endure to trick a Baxcalibur player into thinking you’re Custap or Salac Berry then clicking Upper Hand when they Ice Shard.

Sneasler has many innovative sets from the different Sash variations, HDB sets, Scarf, Band, the whole nine yards. And as mentioned, it doesn’t drop to a +2 Ice Shard which is convenient.

In same post by Trich I referenced in the Grass button, swapping Will o Wisp for Toxic makes the matchup even more playable.

The most I can come up with here is using a Shuca Berry then some Recover + Protect shenanigans once you manage to poison Baxcalibur.

Specs Overheat OHKOs Baxcalibur from full.

Overall, I think the most significant adjustment for Poison would be using Toxic on GWeezing to make it a game. Sneasler can punch holes as well. Sorry, Peng, I couldn’t come up with anything new that you may have not already tried.

Psychic

Iron Defense + Body Press is a helluva drug.

Nasty Plot sets can hit hard with Psycho Boost + Focus Blast.

Defensive CM with Trick Room is still great.

Specs or CM sets with Tachyon Cutter and/or Focus Blast.

Scarf Iron Head can get the job done along with Healing Wish utility to bring something like Slowbro back to full.

Shuca or Balloon sets can make a difference. Even a Scarf Meteor Mash can net a KO majority of the time.

SD or Banded sets hurt a lot and aren’t thwarted by +2 Ice Shards.

Scarf Sharpness Sacred Sword.

CM + Acid Armor sets are still around.

The same song and dance of Iron Defense + Body Press.

Overall, Psychic is sort of a matchup fishing type and Dragon is one of the types that can Psychic can tailor to beat. Regardless of that, there’s still compositions that can matchup well against Dragon without fully committing everything and compromising other matchups.

Rock

SD and Banded sets help.

Scarf and Banded sets are so valuable, but SD sets have some merit too.

As preciously mentioned with the other forms, Superpower can be used over Play Rough to pose a greater threat to Dragon. Also, if you can keep Sturdy in tact, Cornerstone can be an annoying threat.

CM + Iron Defense can make a difference in some cases. The set combines things that Dragon hates like Draining Kiss and Body Press.

Solid Rock + Max Def allows Rhyperior to tank a +2 Icicle Crash and revenge with Counter.

Like I mentioned before, Scarf and Banded sets make the matchup interesting. Along with the niche HDB sets.

If this sets up before Baxcalibur, then it’s a done deal. This is Rock’s savior after all. Iron Defense + Body Press is great. You can also opt to run max Def to make it easier to setup.

SD Kleavor has a niche that can poke a couple holes in Dragon.

Overall, Rock is gonna have a tough time with Dragon just like Electric, Grass, and Fire. Doesn’t help that this is the worst type in the meta. There’s cheesy things that can work against Dragon and other matchups but it still feels like an inconsistent and unattainable matchup.

Steel

Stamina and access to Body Press makes it a great check to Baxcalibur. Also, the Scarf Draco sets have to be strongly accounted for by Dragon teams.

Scarf Drill still hurts.

Iron Defense + Body Press or Whirlwind to phase out Baxcalibur.

Iron Defense + Body Press

Banded and SD sets with CC are threatening.

CM + Iron Defense set, as well as screens, can be dangerous for Baxcalibur and friends.

Balloon, Shuca, and Scarf sets all have great value.

Scarf Iron Head is still effective with Healing Wish support.

The comeback king has access to Low Kick for great coverage against Dragon. Still hinges on non-EQ Baxcalibur.

Specs and CM sets can be a threat when piloted correctly.

Overall, Steel is arguably the second best type in the meta and has every tool available to handle Dragon. Naturally resists the stab, immunity core, great priority options and an Archaludon of their own.

Water

Max Def CM sets are extremely effective on balanced Water compositions.

The best Unaware user to stifle Baxcalibur from sweeping. RestTalk sets with Body Press make Dondozo a true stopper to Baxcalibur.

SD, Band, Scarf sets get in Baxcalibur’s way of punching holes through Water teams.

CM and Specs sets can deter many Baxcalibur and its teammates from making progress against Water.

Curse + Body Press or just running Toxic can get in the way of Baxcalibur.

Although this competes with Greninja for a spot on Water teams, the Specs set is still deadly to Baxcalibur and its teammates.

On Rain Water teams, this is similar to Wake where it drops Dracos that punch holes.

Bulky Band does a great job at tanking and killing.

Banded CC OHKOs

Defensive Intimidate with Dragon Tail can phase out Baxcalibur.

Like I mentioned before, Superpower over Play Rough to threaten Baxcalibur and the other Dragon teammates. Also doesn’t drop to +2 Ice Shard.

Overall, Water can have a great matchup against Baxcalibur when using assets like Primarina, Dondozo, Urshifu, etc. It also helps that Water naturally resists Baxcalibur’s Ice stab.

If anyone wants to add to the lists, then feel free to let me know.

Also, keep in mind that these are ways that each type can handle Baxcalibur on paper. The real test and experience comes with playing the games and learning the plays and courses of action.

Just gonna point out, a number of pokemon listed aren't checks or counters. Sash Mamo for example, or any mon you listed as winning when boosted beforehand (hatterene for ex.), all don't fall into the category of check or counter. I will also point out that many of these answers are reliant on Bax being an SD set and not a Dragon Dance set: Ogerpon for example. Not to mention but there are other rare sets like Band to act as more of a wallbreaker, which can punish some of the defensive answers you listed.

You did clarify these were under ideal circumstances and also specific to dragon. Even so it's worth mentioning that some of these answers aren't nearly as reliable vs. Ice Bax. Loaded Dice is a bit more common here, and speaking of another uncommon set that I love on Ice would be Sub Ice Body Loaded Dice which doesn't care as much about toxic on Geezing, and depending on evs can have subs that don't get broken by strange steam either behind aurora veil.

 

[Hisuian ZoroFoxes]

Bax is actually STUPID, because it gives an Ice and fire neutral on ice and dragon teams respectively. With thermal exchange, it can be a deadly wallbreaker against fire teams and gives willo immunity. Ice body, however, can allow more recovery and a more bulkier set to thrive. I think it should be banned.

 

[mushamu]

I have some time between classes so I wanted to drop my 2c on Bax even tho I don't have enough time to ladder for reqs atp. I'm not on my medication right now so sorry if this post reads weird; feel free to DM me on Discord or wherever if you have any questions in general and on stuff that looks wonky or any inconsistencies

The circumstances regarding Bax's run in SV Monotype is definitely very interesting especially when you look at the fact that it's been suspected twice. It started off as a mon that flew under a lot of people's radars due to Dragon being not that great at the beginning of the generation and Ice being slow to catch on. During the first suspect it was looked at due to its sheer power in many matchups- with Loaded Dice Scale Shot it was considered a top tier threat with the support Ice provides and the suspect ended up being close and in the end, it stayed. In the second DLC, it's being suspected because of the other type it was on. Dragon has noticeably become the #1 type and the many matchups it can strongly cover across the board makes it an overwhelming threat in the teambuilder. It's fair to say that Dragon's influence has been a hot topic since the start of SV Monotype's DLC 2 metagame and with good reason too, and Bax being the second Pokemon to be suspected in a row because of the type fleshes this out.

Personally I never felt that this suspect was ever about whether or not Bax is checkable in the teambuilder. It's an incredibly strong Swords Dance user that has priority, and the fact that it is indeed possible to check it through various means does not discount the polarizing effect it has on the type and the metagame as a consequence. I posted my thoughts in the Gouging Fire suspect thread regarding this issue but Bax is another example of a Pokemon that does not necessarily 6-0 matchups at preview but is still unhealthy for the metagame because of the team structure it provides for Dragon. In my eyes the thing to keep in mind regarding Bax this suspect is that Dragon's team support is overwhelmingly strong. Bax is just the straw that broke the donkey's back when it comes to the amount of good Pokemon Dragon has access to. But for example, Dragon has no issue checking things like Dondozo, Skarmory, and others that try to beat Baxcalibur. While Bax does lose to these Pokemon, bringing in these Pokemon gives Dragon a momentum boost into another Pokemon like Dragapult that can easily abuse them with Bax being still a looming threat in the back. This is what makes Dragon so powerful, the fact that it can cover its rough edges so well in the builder and in game simultaneously. Yes, there are times when you get a favorable matchup against a Dragon team in the builder or in game through certain ways such as outbuilding and outplaying, but for the most part, it doesn't takeaway from the fact that it is the most polarizing type in the metagame.

Pokemon being banned due to its synergy with team support isn't uncommon at all by looking at the past bans we've had in Monotype. As someone who was formerly council, I feel like it's way easier to look at something like Genesect + Kartana + Magearna on Steel and be like "damn this type is hella stacked" and axe all three of them in a swift quickban compared to Bax in this point of the metagame where it has survived for a huge amount of time with a lot of ups and downs despite them being one of the main causes for Dragon being broken (the other being arguably Gouging Fire or another Pokemon). I wanted to flesh this point out because it highlights that when tiering the metagame, team support alongside the current state of the metagame is everything. Bax being broken on Dragon at this point in the metagame is no different than Magearna / Genesect / Kartana being broken in early SM/SS despite them being tiered in different times, and it should be handled as such. The three Pokemon I mentioned beforehand on Steel would probably not be broken if they were on way worse types that could not unlock their potential as well as the support Steel gives to really make them the metagame defining threat, drawing a strong comparison to Bax's combined with the rest of Dragon right now.

Which brings me to the last point I wanted to say about Bax's tiering in that compiling a list of checks and counters isn't going to go anywhere in terms of deciding whether or not this metagame should have Bax in it. Baxcalibur's influence on the metagame goes way beyond what Pokemon do or don't lose to it in the sense that its domination is strongly tied to how good Dragon is at the moment. There are going to be some games where you lose with Baxcalibur, and some games where you annihilate with it, but at the end of the day it's important to look at the bigger picture when thinking about its fate in this suspect instead of looking at the smaller interactions. Remember that a Pokemon being checkable does not necessarily mean it should belong in this metagame. There are a lot of checkable Pokemon that are banned, in fact I would argue that pretty much all of the Pokemon that have been removed from the metagame are checkable to an extent one way or another, but that does not mean they are healthy for the tier. If you use that logic, Magearna is checkable by specially defensive Toxapex and Heatran, as well as various other Fire-type Pokemon, but it is in no way a healthy Pokemon that should be reintroduced into the tier due to the influence it has when combined with Steel and Fairy's team support.

If I get voting requirements I'm going to be banning Baxcalibur since I feel it would greatly decrease Dragon's domination in the tier and in return, cause good metagame growth by opening up more building and playing flexibility. SV Monotype is playable and decently competitive right now, but with Baxcalibur being out of the tier and Dragon's influence diminished it can be so much better and enjoyable.

 

[TheMaverrick]

There was similar rhetoric used dishonestly by the Gouging Fire DNB party, and we see some of it here as well

wvk, it's clear you have a great deal of passion with your numerous posts on the subject which is fun to see. You've also made some correct points here and there.

However, don't forget you're not the only one who wants to improve the game experience for everyone. Did you individually ask each dnb last vote on their thoughts?

Thanks Ken for getting britney stuck in my head haha

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Having gotten reqs recently, I will be voting ban. The arguments in favor of banning due to its role on Dragon teams have already been covered well, and I don't have much to add to that.

So instead, here's a very fun, very silly set for any Ice users out there. It's so audaciously out of the norm that it is guaranteed to catch opponents off guard.

what is this...

Baxcalibur @ Life Orb
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Glaive Rush
- Earthquake
- Blizzard

The idea is simple: Blizzard (with perfect accuracy in snow) lets Baxcalibur hit physically defensive Pokemon like Skarmory and Quagsire extremely hard, making it a dangerous surprise weapon as it can lure in these traditional switch-ins. Of course, running this reduces its normal sweeping capability, so we do the best we can with three move slots by using Dragon Dance, Glaive Rush, and Earthquake. Therefore we try to get the best of both worlds - maintaining its sweeping capability while also beating its traditional checks. The only major dimension of Baxcalibur's offensive capabilities that is missing is its lack of priority, which is mitigated somewhat by Dragon Dance boosting two stats, though having other Ice Shard users on your team is recommended. Life Orb boosts all attacks and Ice Body helps heal back the recoil.

ladder peak

Here are some replays.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2074593598?p2 vs poison (rip g-weezing)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2074587517 vs ground (rip great tusk) - I played this game badly so don't look too closely
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-2074595727?p2 vs fire - a classic bax sweep

and now you can never switch your Skarmory into Baxcalibur again... muahaha

 

[pikachu<3]

I don't know if other people are with me here, but I just find frustrating how Baxcalibur limits both teambuilding and game decisions as a whole. After it sets a Swords Dance I am forced to go to that only one option that I planned in the builder to deal with it, and once it's gone or played around it's pretty much game for me. There aren't a lot of ways to manage because of its above-average bulk and access to priority, in addition to its colossal 145 base attack and burn immunity, not to mention team support (aurora veil on Ice, hwish + status spreading on dragon). Glaive Rush can be a nuke whose side effect is always circumvented by clicking Ice Shard in the following turn, and even then, it has got access to other tools (Scale Shot) which also have their own uses. Of course there are exceptions (such as Steel) which can handle Baxcalibur better than the other types, but the point stands.

I am not going to elaborate a lot on this post because my thoughts have already been exposed elsewhere, but I thought it would be cool to share my view (which could also be other people's view) in the sense that's not a Dragon-targetting for me, because as I have said, I find it very hard to play against it on Ice teams as well. In the end of the day, it can feel as ultimately as a Dragon target because you have to account its team support and in Dragon is where Baxcalibur shines more, but that's not to say the "objective is to nerf Dragon", but rather, misconstruct the fact that you have to prep for Dragon every single time when you are teambuilding. You are forced to prep in the builder vs baxcalibur in the current meta, and even then you can still lose to it. If you don't prep then your loss is almost always guaranteed once you face it, which is in fact very likely.

Finally, regardless if you are a Dragon expert or just enjoy playing Dragon in its current state, worry not because Dragon is still expected to remain solid if it goes. Furthermore, if teambuilding becomes less restrictive in a scenario where it gets banned, expect that players will spend less of their energy preparing against Dragon, which may turn out positively for you. It's much better competitive-wise (and more fun) playing a tier in which players can be more creative and more rewarded on how much they know the game, rather than simply playing the same 4~5 types or builds that are specifically meant to counter the same thing, even if your favorite type is on the top of viability.

This post seems overly cynical. Obviously dragon is a top type that must be prepped for, but there are way more than "4-5 types or builds" that are fun and viable atm. I got reqs by spamming hazardless HO dark with lead sash Hypnosis Darkrai, which is not only an uncommon dark build, but also according to starfire's tier list a build of the 8th best type in the metagame, suggesting there are at least 8 different types where you can run relatively creative builds and still get reqs. Overall I believe there is still a lot of room for both creativity and innovation.

I have some time between classes so I wanted to drop my 2c on Bax even tho I don't have enough time to ladder for reqs atp. I'm not on my medication right now so sorry if this post reads weird; feel free to DM me on Discord or wherever if you have any questions in general and on stuff that looks wonky or any inconsistencies

The circumstances regarding Bax's run in SV Monotype is definitely very interesting especially when you look at the fact that it's been suspected twice. It started off as a mon that flew under a lot of people's radars due to Dragon being not that great at the beginning of the generation and Ice being slow to catch on. During the first suspect it was looked at due to its sheer power in many matchups- with Loaded Dice Scale Shot it was considered a top tier threat with the support Ice provides and the suspect ended up being close and in the end, it stayed. In the second DLC, it's being suspected because of the other type it was on. Dragon has noticeably become the #1 type and the many matchups it can strongly cover across the board makes it an overwhelming threat in the teambuilder. It's fair to say that Dragon's influence has been a hot topic since the start of SV Monotype's DLC 2 metagame and with good reason too, and Bax being the second Pokemon to be suspected in a row because of the type fleshes this out.

Personally I never felt that this suspect was ever about whether or not Bax is checkable in the teambuilder. It's an incredibly strong Swords Dance user that has priority, and the fact that it is indeed possible to check it through various means does not discount the polarizing effect it has on the type and the metagame as a consequence. I posted my thoughts in the Gouging Fire suspect thread regarding this issue but Bax is another example of a Pokemon that does not necessarily 6-0 matchups at preview but is still unhealthy for the metagame because of the team structure it provides for Dragon. In my eyes the thing to keep in mind regarding Bax this suspect is that Dragon's team support is overwhelmingly strong. Bax is just the straw that broke the donkey's back when it comes to the amount of good Pokemon Dragon has access to. But for example, Dragon has no issue checking things like Dondozo, Skarmory, and others that try to beat Baxcalibur. While Bax does lose to these Pokemon, bringing in these Pokemon gives Dragon a momentum boost into another Pokemon like Dragapult that can easily abuse them with Bax being still a looming threat in the back. This is what makes Dragon so powerful, the fact that it can cover its rough edges so well in the builder and in game simultaneously. Yes, there are times when you get a favorable matchup against a Dragon team in the builder or in game through certain ways such as outbuilding and outplaying, but for the most part, it doesn't takeaway from the fact that it is the most polarizing type in the metagame.

Pokemon being banned due to its synergy with team support isn't uncommon at all by looking at the past bans we've had in Monotype. As someone who was formerly council, I feel like it's way easier to look at something like Genesect + Kartana + Magearna on Steel and be like "damn this type is hella stacked" and axe all three of them in a swift quickban compared to Bax in this point of the metagame where it has survived for a huge amount of time with a lot of ups and downs despite them being one of the main causes for Dragon being broken (the other being arguably Gouging Fire or another Pokemon). I wanted to flesh this point out because it highlights that when tiering the metagame, team support alongside the current state of the metagame is everything. Bax being broken on Dragon at this point in the metagame is no different than Magearna / Genesect / Kartana being broken in early SM/SS despite them being tiered in different times, and it should be handled as such. The three Pokemon I mentioned beforehand on Steel would probably not be broken if they were on way worse types that could not unlock their potential as well as the support Steel gives to really make them the metagame defining threat, drawing a strong comparison to Bax's combined with the rest of Dragon right now.

Which brings me to the last point I wanted to say about Bax's tiering in that compiling a list of checks and counters isn't going to go anywhere in terms of deciding whether or not this metagame should have Bax in it. Baxcalibur's influence on the metagame goes way beyond what Pokemon do or don't lose to it in the sense that its domination is strongly tied to how good Dragon is at the moment. There are going to be some games where you lose with Baxcalibur, and some games where you annihilate with it, but at the end of the day it's important to look at the bigger picture when thinking about its fate in this suspect instead of looking at the smaller interactions. Remember that a Pokemon being checkable does not necessarily mean it should belong in this metagame. There are a lot of checkable Pokemon that are banned, in fact I would argue that pretty much all of the Pokemon that have been removed from the metagame are checkable to an extent one way or another, but that does not mean they are healthy for the tier. If you use that logic, Magearna is checkable by specially defensive Toxapex and Heatran, as well as various other Fire-type Pokemon, but it is in no way a healthy Pokemon that should be reintroduced into the tier due to the influence it has when combined with Steel and Fairy's team support.

If I get voting requirements I'm going to be banning Baxcalibur since I feel it would greatly decrease Dragon's domination in the tier and in return, cause good metagame growth by opening up more building and playing flexibility. SV Monotype is playable and decently competitive right now, but with Baxcalibur being out of the tier and Dragon's influence diminished it can be so much better and enjoyable.

It's hard for me to take arguments about dragon's so-called "dominance" and "over-centralization" seriously when we've had other types dominate metagames even harder than dragon in the past and we did nothing.

To quote Trich:

"We also bring up Dragon's usage in MWP (35.6% usage rate, 57.14% winrate), but fail to see similar trends from previous metagames, such as Flying's usage in MPL IX: 36.1% usage rate, 67.44% winrate. If we weren't calling for nerfs back then to Flying, why are we so obsessed with them now for Dragon?

TLDR: Dragon's prevalence is not unprecedented (i.e., Flying in SM-SVDLC1, Psychic in BW-ORAS) and overly exaggerated (experiment with out-of-the-box solutions)"

Anyways-- my thoughts on the suspect. I am probably going to vote DNB.

Most people want Bax suspected/banned over the following set on Dragon:

Baxcalibur @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake/Glaive Rush

My issue with banning Bax over such a set is 3 things:

1. This set struggles against the vast majority of offense

Bax is relatively slow and has a shitty defensive typing; as such, it's not surprising that its SD set struggles against offense in general.

The set is generally awful against fighting teams as it's usually just outsped and killed (and it's countered by both Zamazenta and Urshifu); the same is true against Fairy except the MU is even worse as Bax has to deal with screens and doesn't have a way to hit Azumarill or Primarina regardless. It also isn't good against Bug (Scizor/Forre shit on it), isn't great against Fire as many things (Infernape, Cinderace, various Fire mons in sun) naturally outspeed it and easily tank a boosted ice shard; this set doesn't do well against Ghost as it's usually checked by the common Air Balloon or Scarf Gholdengo and Focus Sash Ceruledge (and also can't really switch into anything remotely offensive on ghost); against Psychic it gets forced out by Jirachi and Metagross and doesn't really want to come in on anything since a lot of Psychic has Fairy/Fighting/Steel STAB and/or expanding force; against Dark it's walled by Kingambit if it isn't carrying EQ and doesn't make it past Sableye without Glaive Rush, not to mention it has problems coming in against Dark and is easily revenge killed by Chien-Pao regardless.

Even against offensive teams where Bax should do work on Type-Matchup alone, the mon still has problems. Against Ground, for example, Bax is checked well enough by both Great Tusk, Excadrill, Quagsire, and Mamoswine that Ground generally wins the MU against dragon; Against Dragon, Bax has problems getting in (since everything could be carrying dragon STAB...) and has to predict well as Arch comes in on Ice Shard for free thanks to the steel typing + Stamina.

2. This set's capabilities against bulky teams are overstated

At least one person has described Bax as "a bane to bulky builds", and I can't say I agree with this characterization. In fact, Bax does not do well against bulky builds in general--it notably can struggle vs Balanced/stall Water (doesn't break Quag without Glaive rush or hax, and whether it carries EQ or not it struggles to break Prim; is hopelessly walled by Dondozo without Glaive rush and walled by Empoleon without EQ; also gets punished by Specs Keldeo and CB Urshifu-rapid-strike which Dragon doesn't have good switchins for), doesn't have a good matchup against Steel, and struggles to break P2 on normal without a boost (which you'd really rather not do thanks to Foul play on P2 and ditto making dragon's life miserable)

It's true that Bax has an excellent matchup against some bulky builds--namely, Poison, Flying, and Grass. However, Poison and Flying are both capable of adapting to Bax--Flying often runs IronPress Skarm, which can switch into Bax as it SDs and beat it 1-on-1, and Poison has options like Toxic GWeezing, Scarf Doge, and Sneasler. Grass on the other hand is just a terrible type at the moment, Bax isn't at fault here. Overall having a good (but not team-preview winning) matchup against 3/6 bulky types is not enough to qualify for a ban, especially when Bax's SD set struggles against offense as much as it does.

3. An offensive metagame is good for the tier

I understand this last point is a bit subjective, but when most causal players are looking to learn a tier or jump into competitive Pokemon, they generally build Offense, because Offense is fun. Imagine you're playing your first game of Monotype and your first game is loading up gen6/7/8 Fire against Ebola stall, lasting 150 turns to get 6-0ed. I don't know, I think I'd probably move to a different tier after that. Having an offensive metagame makes the tier more appealing to new players as well as causal ones, and this is important for the long-term health of the playerbase. Banning slow, strong wallbreakers like Bax makes the metagame more Balance/Stall centric instead of Offensive, which is bad in the long-term IMO.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

This post seems overly cynical. Obviously dragon is a top type that must be prepped for, but there are way more than "4-5 types or builds" that are fun and viable atm. I got reqs by spamming hazardless HO dark with lead sash Hypnosis Darkrai, which is not only an uncommon dark build, but also according to starfire's tier list a build of the 8th best type in the metagame, suggesting there are at least 8 different types where you can run relatively creative builds and still get reqs. Overall I believe there is still a lot of room for both creativity and innovation.

Yeah there are some fun builds, sure, that doesn't equate it being a fun meta though let's see things straight for a second. It's not cynical to say people aren't having the best time with the current meta when the tiering survey quite literally shows the lowest rating yet for general enjoyment of the meta. To follow that, saying you ran a creative dark build so there must be at least 8 different types where you can run creative builds is not by any means a logical way to represent the state of the meta. Tons of types end up pigeonholed in the builder, largely just to hold any competitive edge. Dark is a type with tons of extremely viable options, and is a far more versatile type than many others imo. I'll also say that my mentality with building at this point is to completely forget about covering every threat, and instead hyper focusing on making certain players/types cry. Sob. Weep for mercy. Why? Cause I have more than enough opportunity to make certain matchups unplayable, and like it or not there are multiple types which simply can't keep up with every threat, so when I'm trying to have fun I just hop on ladder with the sure relief knowing that some matchups I can hardwin, and at the same time I can gladly go into bad matchups knowing I'll lose cause I accepted those losses beforehand. Does this apply to Bax? Yup. You know 1000% that I use "creative out of the box solutions" solely to make Bax more than unplayable for it's bad matchups.

It's hard for me to take arguments about dragon's so-called "dominance" and "over-centralization" seriously when we've had other types dominate metagames even harder than dragon in the past and we did nothing.

To quote Trich:

"We also bring up Dragon's usage in MWP (35.6% usage rate, 57.14% winrate), but fail to see similar trends from previous metagames, such as Flying's usage in MPL IX: 36.1% usage rate, 67.44% winrate. If we weren't calling for nerfs back then to Flying, why are we so obsessed with them now for Dragon?

TLDR: Dragon's prevalence is not unprecedented (i.e., Flying in SM-SVDLC1, Psychic in BW-ORAS) and overly exaggerated (experiment with out-of-the-box solutions)"

Anyways-- my thoughts on the suspect. I am probably going to vote DNB.

Most people want Bax suspected/banned over the following set on Dragon:

Baxcalibur @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Thermal Exchange
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake/Glaive Rush

My issue with banning Bax over such a set is 3 things:

I agree that Dragon shouldn't be why Bax is suspected. I still stand on the belief that Bax is not in fact being suspected "because dragon is busted". It was suspect worthy before people even figured it out when Dragon was B tier, and it's definitely suspect/ban worthy now.

1. This set struggles against the vast majority of offense

Bax is relatively slow and has a shitty defensive typing; as such, it's not surprising that its SD set struggles against offense in general.

The set is generally awful against fighting teams as it's usually just outsped and killed (and it's countered by both Zamazenta and Urshifu); the same is true against Fairy except the MU is even worse as Bax has to deal with screens and doesn't have a way to hit Azumarill or Primarina regardless. It also isn't good against Bug (Scizor/Forre shit on it), isn't great against Fire as many things (Infernape, Cinderace, various Fire mons in sun) naturally outspeed it and easily tank a boosted ice shard; this set doesn't do well against Ghost as it's usually checked by the common Air Balloon or Scarf Gholdengo and Focus Sash Ceruledge (and also can't really switch into anything remotely offensive on ghost); against Psychic it gets forced out by Jirachi and Metagross and doesn't really want to come in on anything since a lot of Psychic has Fairy/Fighting/Steel STAB and/or expanding force; against Dark it's walled by Kingambit if it isn't carrying EQ and doesn't make it past Sableye without Glaive Rush, not to mention it has problems coming in against Dark and is easily revenge killed by Chien-Pao regardless.

Even against offensive teams where Bax should do work on Type-Matchup alone, the mon still has problems. Against Ground, for example, Bax is checked well enough by both Great Tusk, Excadrill, Quagsire, and Mamoswine that Ground generally wins the MU against dragon; Against Dragon, Bax has problems getting in (since everything could be carrying dragon STAB...) and has to predict well as Arch comes in on Ice Shard for free thanks to the steel typing + Stamina.

I know people are going to laugh at me for this, but if Bug is not considered a competitive type worth mentioning in the Gouging Fire suspect, then it's not a competitive type worth mentioning here either. That is to say that if Gouging Fire has zero counterplay by Bug is not worth pointing out in the GF suspect, then Bug having counters to Bax is also not worth mentioning.

Part of the problem with Bax, as pointed out in previous comments, is that there isn't just one set. I still run into Dragon Dance, and on Ice Loaded Dice DD is more common as well. I recognize that you're posting problems with 1 set in particular, but it's worth mentioning that the entirety of a dnb argument shouldn't revolve around 1 set, especially when some of the types you mentioned as problematic and mons you named as checks aren't consistent across the board.

2. This set's capabilities against bulky teams are overstated

At least one person has described Bax as "a bane to bulky builds", and I can't say I agree with this characterization. In fact, Bax does not do well against bulky builds in general--it notably can struggle vs Balanced/stall Water (doesn't break Quag without Glaive rush or hax, and whether it carries EQ or not it struggles to break Prim; is hopelessly walled by Dondozo without Glaive rush and walled by Empoleon without EQ; also gets punished by Specs Keldeo and CB Urshifu-rapid-strike which Dragon doesn't have good switchins for), doesn't have a good matchup against Steel, and struggles to break P2 on normal without a boost (which you'd really rather not do thanks to Foul play on P2 and ditto making dragon's life miserable)

It's true that Bax has an excellent matchup against some bulky builds--namely, Poison, Flying, and Grass. However, Poison and Flying are both capable of adapting to Bax--Flying often runs IronPress Skarm, which can switch into Bax as it SDs and beat it 1-on-1, and Poison has options like Toxic GWeezing, Scarf Doge, and Sneasler. Grass on the other hand is just a terrible type at the moment, Bax isn't at fault here. Overall having a good (but not team-preview winning) matchup against 3/6 bulky types is not enough to qualify for a ban, especially when Bax's SD set struggles against offense as much as it does.

By your argument, Bax not only doesn't do well against offensive builds, but also doesn't do well against bulky builds, while also struggling vs. some balance builds. I don't see this as an argument in good faith whatsoever.

As for those "adaptations to Bax", they don't even fully cover already existing Bax sets. What I run on Ice looks something like this, I have some with max 252 speed evs, others with different variations of bulk, been using something like it on Ice since Home.

Baxcalibur @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Scale Shot
- Icicle Spear
- Substitute

The ID Skarm you pointed out, isn't a counter to Loaded Dice Bax for 1: +2 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 228-268 (68.2 - 80.2%) -- approx. 2HKO

Here's the calc vs. Quag, a common answer from Ground.
252+ Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 160-192 (40.6 - 48.7%) -- approx. 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'll also point out one of the other variations of this spread has something like 208 Special Defense EVs. At that point, not only does Bax block your out of the box Geezing answer with subbing in front of toxic, but behind screens Geezing isn't even capable of breaking sub with Play Rough or Strange Steam.

Your argument so far comes on the basis that there is only 1 set, as opposed to at least 4 more than viable ones that I'd seen used by competitive players. All the while you approached this only in answer to it's usage on Dragon, whereas the majority of ban arguments so far came on the basis that Dragon being overpowered is not the basis of the suspect.

3. An offensive metagame is good for the tier

I understand this last point is a bit subjective, but when most causal players are looking to learn a tier or jump into competitive Pokemon, they generally build Offense, because Offense is fun. Imagine you're playing your first game of Monotype and your first game is loading up gen6/7/8 Fire against Ebola stall, lasting 150 turns to get 6-0ed. I don't know, I think I'd probably move to a different tier after that. Having an offensive metagame makes the tier more appealing to new players as well as causal ones, and this is important for the long-term health of the playerbase. Banning slow, strong wallbreakers like Bax makes the metagame more Balance/Stall centric instead of Offensive, which is bad in the long-term IMO.

I think people lose the plot a bit with these suspects, and mistake what they believe is the ideal metagame for what the community thinks, what people consider fun, and what accurately represents the state of the metagame. When I get reqs, I talk to andies on the ladder, asking what they believe would benefit the metagame, what they think of Bax, and even try to get them involved. The people who have no perspective of these forums all say the same thing, that Gouging Fire is unwinnable for some types, that they'd wish to see the meta without many of our common problem mons like Flutter or Pao. When I chat with people in the monotype room, the common joke and perspective is that we'll just have another year of banning nothing, saying wait till after mpl, and just in general losing faith that any meaningful change will come. The want for tiering action comes from everyone, and it's worth remembering this suspect comes not only from the tiering survey listing it as the #2 most problematic mon in the eyes of the community, but top players as well.

The point of these suspects isn't to try and shape the tier for one's subjective definition of "fun", just as the point of these suspects isn't to establish a tier seen as technically competitive and only playable by the monotype sweats who can get reqs to begin with. We do what's in the best interest of this tier as a whole, to help establish it as ultimately healthy, fun, and competitive. You compare Gen 9 to old gens as far putting into perspective whether or not Dragon truly is busted. The fact that our community as a whole sees the tier as less competitive, fun, and more limiting in comparison to those gens is enough in my opinion to verify that whether or not the stats themselves show it, there are underlying problems that we need to address and I believe Banning Bax furthers that cause.

 

[schwipper]

I was first trying to keep out of this, but with the current trend in the discussion, i would just like to chime in with a few words of my own:

First off, i will most likely be voting Ban, given that i see Bax as one of the strongest mons in the current meta game, that should not be around to begin with. Shoutout to Chien Pao for taking the top spot on this btw, but let's keep it on Bax.
Bax Suspect Test was started shortly after Gouging Fire was suspected. This obviously led to people saying that it's only to hit dragon and make it less centralized of a Type in the current Metagame. While it is true that Dragon is overcentralizing, holding a 20%+ Usagerate on ladder and a 30+% in Tournaments, that is not the sole Reason Bax is being suspected to begin with. It just adds to the feeling that players get, that Bax in Dragon right now is in an unhealthy state. I believe that Bax is Unhealthy by Design even before it's high usage on Dragon now. The last suspect Test mainly focused on it's usage in Ice Teams and i believe the Design of Bax was already unhealthy at that point. As a hyper powerfull, burn immune, physical Wallkbreaker, it is hard to stop bax when it get's going. SD Bax vs SD Bax in dragon mirrors often end up deciding the Game on the Speedtie, given that Iceshard kills everything faster and EQ/glaiverush finishes off the easily chipped neutrals like Archaludon or Goodra-H, given that both have no way o recover their hp reliably. Alot of other types become invalidated by Bax usage of Iceshard and Crash combined with either EQ or Glaiverush, given that a single SD turn can end up solo winning vs Flying, Grass, Ground, the earlier mentioned Dragon, Poison, Normal after Ditto is heavily chipped or dead, against dark if you are EQ > Glaive, More defensive Water teams. I believe Bax just lines up very well against a plethora of Types and Archtypes, which limits Teambuilding and forces to to run specific Answers or specific Archtypes just to not get run over by Bax. Not to mention, this is just for one set, there is Dragondance icycle spears as an option, SD with Scalshot and Spears, Choice Band for imidiate breaking power. I believe the Flexibility that Bax shows is hard to answer for defense and offense alike.
I will skip over the "every type CAN answer Bax in these situations" cause that does not TRUELY reflect the essence of Pokemon. Bax alone will not 1 v 6 every single type, the matter of the fact is no mon does. But, it only needs little support to start deleting teams, which makes monst answers limited. For example Glaive rush sets get handled by steel types, but most of these have no reliable Recovery, take a lot of damage from EQ or Crash if they are flying types and Dragon can easily switch to Gouging Fire and laugh about any steel move you might have used to get the SE hit off. With Bax high HP stat of 115 and decent Defense and Spd, it also is able to survive a hit or two from faster mons and is able to kill them frequently thanks to it's absurd 145 attack. THIS is the reason Bax gets suspected. It's not just to hit Dragon, it is cause Bax is inherently unhealthy to the Metagame, given that it is highly limiting in the Builder. Of course Bax will lose games, of course there are theoratical answers and ways to beat it, but the fact stands that you require very specific Teams or Archtype within the Team to handle Bax without major losses. Not to mention that Flinches of Crash can invalidate your answer out of nowhere.
To what Pikachu said about offensive Metagames: This is not what the Suspect Test is for. No one went in here saying we hate offense and let's ban all offensive Pokemon. If we want to appeal to a wider audience, we would just unban everything cause casual players also enjoy highly over the top pokemon like Koraidon, BECAUSE they are that strong. I personally believe offense is fine to have, but there shouldn't be a metagame where offense is nearly the only viable thing you can play. Right now defensive or more balanced teams frequently get destroyed by Bax and a few other mons (one i mentioned earlier already), which means you are FORCED to run a more offensive Team or a very specific set of stall that allows you to answer all the mons with specific answers. All of these facts limit building, limit the enjoyment of the tier because you are forced into specific team ideas, it makes tournaments frequently centered around the same few types and it takes the creativity out of the communitys hand. When i want to build something creative but realize that Bax can just remove the Team nearly by itself, i can not run the novel ideas i have in mind.
With all this out of the way, as i said i am heavily leaning towards Ban and so far no point that was raised is truely supporting a no ban here, the points given are merely pointing out that it is not, in all cases, a 1 v 6 mon, which should hardly be the requirement for a mon to be banned.

 

[Pengairxan]

I would also like to Slap on one more thing to this.

It's true that Bax has an excellent matchup against some bulky builds--namely, Poison, Flying, and Grass. However, Poison and Flying are both capable of adapting to Bax--Flying often runs IronPress Skarm, which can switch into Bax as it SDs and beat it 1-on-1, and Poison has options like Toxic GWeezing, Scarf Doge, and Sneasler. Grass on the other hand is just a terrible type at the moment, Bax isn't at fault here. Overall having a good (but not team-preview winning) matchup against 3/6 bulky types is not enough to qualify for a ban, especially when Bax's SD set struggles against offense as much as it does.

Icicle Crash is Bax's main STAB and Skarm needs to get to +2 (it will lose the 1v1 otherwise as Icicle Crash will 2 hit and Skarm can only 2 hit in response) on a mon that has to hit Icicle Crash 2/3 times depending on how lucky they get with Flinches.
Also if it is SD Icicle Spear, that is a 6.3% chance to OKHO or a measly 75% after Rocks if it gets all 5 hits. (Sure SD Dice is a worse set overall, but you still have to account for it.) And even if it gets 4 hits, its still just auto winning that 1v1 if its Adamant.
With Geezing Toxic, against Dragon we can't use it because we need Geezing as healthy as possible for Gouging Fire to Toxic that and stall it out with Toxapex or Pecharunt by its side.

And all this is implying is that they don't switch in the first place. For three of the 4 mons you have mentioned there is a certain Ghost type that is very promient on Dragon teams called Dragapult that can easily switch into all of these unless I hard read with Okidogi and OKHO with Knock off (In which case, I still have the issue of Bax to deal with because Knock off certainly isn't killing Baxcalibur) And that gets them a ton of momentum because Dragapult has plenty of sets to do stuff with and can just, pivot back into Bax putting me back into square one.
And with Geezing, Hoodra/Arch just hard switch onto it because Steel scary.

 

[juleocesar]

This post seems overly cynical. Obviously dragon is a top type that must be prepped for, but there are way more than "4-5 types or builds" that are fun and viable atm. I got reqs by spamming hazardless HO dark with lead sash Hypnosis Darkrai, which is not only an uncommon dark build, but also according to starfire's tier list a build of the 8th best type in the metagame, suggesting there are at least 8 different types where you can run relatively creative builds and still get reqs. Overall I believe there is still a lot of room for both creativity and innovation.

This isn't about "viable builds to get reqs". I made reqs with a revavroom team, and that doesn't mean it is the most optimal choice for competitive play. When I did this write-up i was mostly considering tournament play, or in the very least high level ladder play. Sure there are other factors that come in to mind, but the very few builds that exist at the moment are either accounting for Dragon every time or Dragon itself. If you have watched the last weeks of current monotype seasonals you will see the same 6 types show up very frequently: Dragon, Water, Ground, Fire, Steel, and Flying. I don't think I have seen as many Darks recently because the forementioned builds almost always have something to deal with them: Archaludon (Dragon), Skarmory / Archaludon + Heatran (Steel), Quaquaval and Primarina (Water), Ground (Ursaluna-BM w/ Vacuum wave), Flying (Enamorus + Skarmory), Fire (Ogerpon-Hearthflame + Cinderace + Gouging Fire). If you account the fact that all these types have to account Baxcalibur on the builder, that significantly reduces the possibilities that they can run. Examples for this includes running restrained builds on Flying (requiring Skarmory to run Iron Defense or defensive Gyarados sets) or Water (requiring at least one of the following: Quaquaval, Primarina or Azumarill). So yes I might have gone harsh when I said "4-5 types" but the point of being heavily restrained on the builder remains.

Now for the answers that these types have for Baxcalibur, most of them hinder the team's momentum and can sometimes can be overthrown by hax or long-term gameplay. For example, as Dragon vs Flying if your Skarmory gets Icicle Crash flinched or maybe just even weakened slightly, your check options for Baxcalibur are gone and your chances of winning are practically ended. Baxcalibur can also take 1-2 hits most of the time from eventual checks such as Play Rough Ogerpon, Sacred Sword Chien-Pao and a couple of others which can be commonly seen as dragon answers from forementioned types. So even if you prepare against it you can still find yourself in a rough spot, and shows why players can still run Dragon without much fear, especially given the team support it has (archaludon, hwish latias, dragapult).

tldr: So while there is counterplay, that doesn't mean it is a healthy Pokemon, especially competitive-wise.

It's hard for me to take arguments about dragon's so-called "dominance" and "over-centralization" seriously when we've had other types dominate metagames even harder than dragon in the past and we did nothing.

To quote Trich:

"We also bring up Dragon's usage in MWP (35.6% usage rate, 57.14% winrate), but fail to see similar trends from previous metagames, such as Flying's usage in MPL IX: 36.1% usage rate, 67.44% winrate. If we weren't calling for nerfs back then to Flying, why are we so obsessed with them now for Dragon?

TLDR: Dragon's prevalence is not unprecedented (i.e., Flying in SM-SVDLC1, Psychic in BW-ORAS) and overly exaggerated (experiment with out-of-the-box solutions)"

I don't find it logical to relate this very suspect with the few other cases that we have had in the past. Keep in mind MPL-IX happened prior to DLC1. I can't speak for the council but players had the awareness that the DLCs would come shortly after MPL, so maybe a desire for change was less needed back then. Furthermore, while winrate/usage are very important, they are not the only data that matters. The numbers are high but the metagame didn't look as very restrictive in options, at least not in a way that required immediate action. As for the present, the metagame is expected to be "stable" throughout this year so it is the perfect time to make decisions until new Pokemon or new mechanics are possibly (if they will ever be) updated. Not going to talk much about the oldgens because the way decisions are made differs from SV, they also had different councils and different takes when they were CGs in their respective times, and a lot was learnt from that experience.

3. An offensive metagame is good for the tier

I understand this last point is a bit subjective, but when most causal players are looking to learn a tier or jump into competitive Pokemon, they generally build Offense, because Offense is fun. Imagine you're playing your first game of Monotype and your first game is loading up gen6/7/8 Fire against Ebola stall, lasting 150 turns to get 6-0ed. I don't know, I think I'd probably move to a different tier after that. Having an offensive metagame makes the tier more appealing to new players as well as causal ones, and this is important for the long-term health of the playerbase. Banning slow, strong wallbreakers like Bax makes the metagame more Balance/Stall centric instead of Offensive, which is bad in the long-term IMO.

This is actually very subjective, but I think that depends a lot on what the tier looks like. Every tier seems to have a characteristic type of metagame, and SV-dlc2 does look very offensive and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem occurs with metagame restrictions, even within that offensive metagame. If you have a Pokemon that can set Swords Dance and KO many offensive threats with Ice Shard in the tier and forcing certain builds to appear, then maybe that is a sign that it is being restrictive. Personally speaking, the metagame has a lot to win if baxcalibur goes given the diversity of builds (regardless of it is offensive or balance) is expected to increase. You can still have an offensive metagame (and more diverse!) without baxcalibur, so assuming that keeping baxcalibur will keep the metagame more offensive (and therefore better) is just wrong. So even if you are a "fan of offensive playstyles", you should be aiming for healthier gameplay and teambuilding.

 

[ken]

Baxcalibur is banned!