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I personally think if we're allowing tera in the meta then we should also accept that using tera to counter certain mons (esp if your tera is a commonly used tera) is a legitimate argument against and for their viability (not talking about bundle in this statement just in general). I just don't like the argument of "if you're forced into using tera to beat something then that pokemon is broken" as no, that is not true, that is just the counter measure that you chose while you were building your team that were amongst the other counter measures that exist in the format. Which in no surprise to anyone is the most flexible counter measure as all 6 of your pokemon can use it to beat what you need to beat.
I think thats fair, and definitely is important to consider tera in the builder as a way to beat team threats. I just think the issue is that if tera is one of the only reliable ways to counter a mon that that outspeeds the entire metagame, then it might not be the most healthy. Granted, I'm not 100% on if this mon is broken, but it is definitely a lot better in practice than in the builder.
I think consistency does play a part in a pokemons viability, if corviknight (one of the most common pokemon right now) comes in healthy on your bundle and you need to weaken it for something else to come in and 20% of the time you made NO PROGRESS thats a free u-turn or a free defog or a free body press, and corv will still come in later and do over 50% with press, it gets 1v1d.
Not only that but every time bundle comes in you are taking 25% so you can't also say no priority takes care of it, kingambit easily comes in to revenge kill or even setup, weakened enough palafin jet punch even resisted can do over 25%, sucker punch from Chien-pao does over half, bulky scizor literally comes in and 1v1's it and does 45 with BP. And running boots also just opens you up to getting outsped by the scarf/EB pokemon. Bundle is not coming in and 6-0ing teams its coming in taking maybe 1 kill and weakening another MAXIMUM in its good matchups, at worst it could very well just do nothing due to its limited movepool, or have a shit matchup and get chip.
Counterplay is not hoping something will miss. You always play and build teams assuming X move will hit. As for Corv your whole argument hinges on it being always healthy to check Bundle. Which is not reliable given all else Corv is tasked with handling.
252 SpA Iron Bundle Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 180-213 (45 - 53.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Corv is forced to roost after any attack from Bundle lest it be too weak to switch in later. Ice beam is a 3HKO with boots set alone. Rocks guarantee it. The rest you listed...
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 139-165 (54.9 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Chien-Pao Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 129-153 (50.9 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 97-115 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All of these cannot 1v1 Bundle. And Bulky Scizor has no longevity and absurd hazard weakness. Bundle has a plethora of sets that make dealing with it highly restrictive. They all need significant chip. And they all fail to keep Bundle in check if its HDB which is difficult to wear down.
Garganacl honorable mention feels very out of left field. I haven't seen anyone discuss the mon so I'm curious what makes it so difficult to kill compared to the other giant rock types that have come before it. Honestly just thought it was another Gigalith but I guess status immune + ghost resist + recover could make it pretty fat.
Garganacl honorable mention feels very out of left field. I haven't seen anyone discuss the mon so I'm curious what makes it so difficult to kill compared to the other giant rock types that have come before it. Honestly just thought it was another Gigalith but I guess status immune + ghost resist + recover could make it pretty fat.
From what I understood from the OU Discord, Garganacl is hard to kill after Terastralizing into a Flying or Ghost type. On top of that, Salt Cure is really hard to deal with because it has a persistent 1/8th HP chip damage (1/4th for Water and Steel) after initial damage, which forces a lot of switches
OH BOY ON THE RADAR 2 IS ON
Okay so, i havent played the meta like at all since the flutter mane ban because theres this big university project in 3 days that i should take all my attention into, but my brain wants to talk about Delibird x Doom crossover so lets do that instead
and havent tried them, but everyone agrees that is broken, and also Chesnaught no longer walls it (im still salty about that guy who took my lunch money) BAN
:Cereal mascot weavile with broken ability: is broken, has no defensive utility but he doesnt need it, literally give him psiquic terrain and all your problems are g o n e BAN
Iron Bundle? yeah, Iron Bundle deez nuts, BAN (also no, the booster energy """""""""""nerf"""""""""""" is not really an issue like at all)
so this is what i initialy said about him
is basically another one trick pony, one thing ive been experimenting is instead of making him just the suicide shed scarfer, making a bit bulkier so that i can have more options to set up in the course of a longer battle, and it helps alot, his move pool is not either, i was using acrobatics with sitrus berry but changed to power whip with leftovers to surprise pick Azu, the clods and the sires and its cool, also despite sounding laughable, if your not in a healthy enough posicion to use shed tail, use U-turn, to still have some offensive momentum, some chip, and you basically regen, its a bit cheesy but try it, its fun. As for broken material, its kinda frustrating since your basically allowing the monsters of the tier to run rampid, one mistake of yours and now that Moon is with 2DDs, behind a sub, and screens, i dont think he is broken by himself but if every Set up sweeper can just use him as a romantic partner to sweep, perhaps i would be better to just let him go
Can somebody tell me how the romantic relationships beetween him and set up sweepers is doing? that could give us the clue
my opinion is the same, he is insane only because he takes perfect advantage of the crazy insane metagame right now
to me, valiant its still not broken, i haven tried goldilocks here but i wanna have some fun with choice specs because me loves damage, but i think people will eventually just start baiting him and having to prepare for him the same way spinners prepared for spinblockers in the old age, and i havent tried average leage of legends player but everyone says that is both an insane stall killer and a extremly good partner for them
Now, my post will probably be ignored by every single human on earth so i need to post a spice controversial opinion about the most trendy thing on the planet because i need attention, and that is teralizing! I honestly think that the council should NOT take action against it yet, why? because I feel like this mechanic is too 50/50 on the public appeal, sure people are starting to form their opinions, and even offering some solutions to keep it in some way, beetween the insane pokemonds flying around, the new abilitys and booster energy, the ability to either save the match by changing type or losing the game because your enemy changed type is both a blessing and a curse, but from what im seeing, theres not that much of fiercy disscussion, Dinamax? trash, Z moves? trash but stayed idk why, Megas? balanced around items so was easy to moderate. I think this OU tournament going on will be the deciding factor in deciding if this mechanic should go or not, i sadly wont be participating (because of Uni work, and even if I entered, i would get destroyed first round because i have no idea what im doing) but i think everyone should keep a close eye to this tournament tbh
As soon as im done, im gonna try Choice Ban Great Tusk, its literally Rypherior but is a Donphan, i theorize that this could go well on stall teams that would like some big boy damage and a good bulk to have a friendly pace on, i honestly think he has 4MSS, has Stabs, rock head/Stone Edge/Iron Head/Ice Spinner/Elemental Fangs, Knock Off, Megahorn, Play Rough, taunt, Zen Headbutt, Rapid Spin, Sub, body press/Heavy slam, Bulk Up, terra blast, fucking Smart Strike for some reason, look at this movepool, he is so cool
OH BOY ON THE RADAR 2 IS ON
Okay so, i havent played the meta like at all since the flutter mane ban because theres this big university project in 3 days that i should take all my attention into, but my brain wants to talk about Delibird x Doom crossover so lets do that instead
and havent tried them, but everyone agrees that is broken, and also Chesnaught no longer walls it (im still salty about that guy who took my lunch money) BAN
:Cereal mascot weavile with broken ability: is broken, has no defensive utility but he doesnt need it, literally give him psiquic terrain and all your problems are g o n e BAN
Iron Bundle? yeah, Iron Bundle deez nuts, BAN (also no, the booster energy """""""""""nerf"""""""""""" is not really an issue like at all)
so this is what i initialy said about him
is basically another one trick pony, one thing ive been experimenting is instead of making him just the suicide shed scarfer, making a bit bulkier so that i can have more options to set up in the course of a longer battle, and it helps alot, his move pool is not either, i was using acrobatics with sitrus berry but changed to power whip with leftovers to surprise pick Azu, the clods and the sires and its cool, also despite sounding laughable, if your not in a healthy enough posicion to use shed tail, use U-turn, to still have some offensive momentum, some chip, and you basically regen, its a bit cheesy but try it, its fun. As for broken material, its kinda frustrating since your basically allowing the monsters of the tier to run rampid, one mistake of yours and now that Moon is with 2DDs, behind a sub, and screens, i dont think he is broken by himself but if every Set up sweeper can just use him as a romantic partner to sweep, perhaps i would be better to just let him go
Can somebody tell me how the romantic relationships beetween him and set up sweepers is doing? that could give us the clue
my opinion is the same, he is insane only because he takes perfect advantage of the crazy insane metagame right now
to me, valiant its still not broken, i haven tried goldilocks here but i wanna have some fun with choice specs because me loves damage, but i think people will eventually just start baiting him and having to prepare for him the same way spinners prepared for spinblockers in the old age, and i havent tried average leage of legends player but everyone says that is both an insane stall killer and a extremly good partner for them
Now, my post will probably be ignored by every single human on earth so i need to post a spice controversial opinion about the most trendy thing on the planet because i need attention, and that is teralizing! I honestly think that the council should NOT take action against it yet, why? because I feel like this mechanic is too 50/50 on the public appeal, sure people are starting to form their opinions, and even offering some solutions to keep it in some way, beetween the insane pokemonds flying around, the new abilitys and booster energy, the ability to either save the match by changing type or losing the game because your enemy changed type is both a blessing and a curse, but from what im seeing, theres not that much of fiercy disscussion, Dinamax? trash, Z moves? trash but stayed idk why, Megas? balanced around items so was easy to moderate. I think this OU tournament going on will be the deciding factor in deciding if this mechanic should go or not, i sadly wont be participating (because of Uni work, and even if I entered, i would get destroyed first round because i have no idea what im doing) but i think everyone should keep a close eye to this tournament tbh
As soon as im done, im gonna try Choice Ban Great Tusk, its literally Rypherior but is a Donphan, i theorize that this could go well on stall teams that would like some big boy damage and a good bulk to have a friendly pace on, i honestly think he has 4MSS, has Stabs, rock head/Stone Edge/Iron Head/Ice Spinner/Elemental Fangs, Knock Off, Megahorn, Play Rough, taunt, Zen Headbutt, Rapid Spin, Sub, body press/Heavy slam, Bulk Up, terra blast, fucking Smart Strike for some reason, look at this movepool, he is so cool
terastilizing is cool for like ten seconds til you see this happen
it could’ve been a balanced mechanic if GameFreak didn’t decide to implement a universal 80 bp stab with adaptability boosts combined with power creep that makes last gen OU look like UU in comparison.
Shed Tail needs to go. Literally baton pass but with a substitute in this metagame where defense has been nerfed, and threats can sweep with just one opportunity.
Palafin is fine. OU has no shortage of water resists. Treat it like Watershifu with higher atk/speed. Though it also doesn’t have a secondary type, so most water resists in the tier should work fine, especially the Slowtwins, Pex, Dondozo, etc. Also GF introducing a new incredible water immune in Clodsire.
Bundle has 124 spa with water/ice stab that hits everything neutrally or super effectively. Along with its Mega Lopunny speed tier, it seems like a great addition to the tier that may or may not be broken down the line. Once the meta settles down, we may see more special walls that can nautrally take its hits neutrally, also it needing boots to not get hit with rocks in this hazard heavy meta.
Imagine going back in time to when people were calling Weavile broken and then showing them Chien-Pao. The ability is broken and then in classic Game Freak fashion, they gave it a busted speed tier. May or may not be broken later down the line.
Even after we all found out booster energy only boosts all stats by 30% except speed, I feel Roaring Moon might still be broken. 139 atk with 119 speed and decent bulk. DD + booster energy has too much power. Especially when you see how limited our pool of fairies is this gen. Iron Valiant I am not sure about yet. Most of the paradoxes funny enough seem perfectly fine for standard play.
The Donphan paradoxes are our life saviors this gen. Great Tusk beats nearly every spinblocker making it the most reliable mon for hazard control. The egregiously high attacking power is also well appreciated. Iron Threads has a great speed tier for its role, Knock, spin, rocks, and Volt Switch gives it nice utility. Definitely gonna be the best mons in the tier later down the line.
I think people forgot Slowking still has FS + port, but this time with a different pivoting move, Chilling Reception. Pair this with Valiant or Chien-Pao and you get rebranded Gen 8 OU.
terastilizing is cool for like ten seconds til you see this happen View attachment 467628
it could’ve been a balanced mechanic if GameFreak didn’t decide to implement a universal 80 bp stab with adaptability boosts combined with power creep that makes last gen OU look like UU in comparison.
Shed Tail needs to go. Literally baton pass but with a substitute in this metagame where defense has been nerfed, and threats can sweep with just one opportunity.
Palafin is fine. OU has no shortage of water resists. Treat it like Watershifu with higher atk/speed. Though it also doesn’t have a secondary type, so most water resists in the tier should work fine, especially the Slowtwins, Pex, Dondozo, etc. Also GF introducing a new incredible water immune in Clodsire.
Bundle has 124 spa with water/ice stab that hits everything neutrally or super effectively. Along with its Mega Lopunny speed tier, it seems like a great addition to the tier that may or may not be broken down the line. Once the meta settles down, we may see more special walls that can nautrally take its hits neutrally, also it needing boots to not get hit with rocks in this hazard heavy meta.
Imagine going back in time to when people were calling Weavile broken and then showing them Chien-Pao. The ability is broken and then in classic Game Freak fashion, they gave it a busted speed tier. May or may not be broken later down the line.
Even after we all found out booster energy only boosts all stats by 30% except speed, I feel Roaring Moon might still be broken. 139 atk with 119 speed and decent bulk. DD + booster energy has too much power. Especially when you see how limited our pool of fairies is this gen. Iron Valiant I am not sure about yet. Most of the paradoxes funny enough seem perfectly fine for standard play.
The Donphan paradoxes are our life saviors this gen. Great Tusk beats nearly every spinblocker making it the most reliable mon for hazard control. The egregiously high attacking power is also well appreciated. Iron Threads has a great speed tier for its role, Knock, spin, rocks, and Volt Switch gives it nice utility. Definitely gonna be the best mons in the tier later down the line.
I think people forgot Slowking still has FS + port, but this time with a different pivoting move, Chilling Reception. Pair this with Valiant or Chien-Pao and you get rebranded Gen 8 OU.
yep... nice BU palafin counter you have there... u better be runnning a amoonguss (which btw still loses to taunt and depending on its tera) or you better have some shit such as a bulky wisp hex pult
It's pretty hard to kill. Right now, it is firmly in the "let's keep an eye on this, but we're not close to any action at all" territory -- it is a really novel Pokemon that has disturbed a lot of the more flimsy teams that cannot break it off-the-bat, so we just want to make sure it does not spiral out of control. I do not think it is broken right now and I do not think it will get banned anytime soon, but we definitely discussed it a fair amount and I wanted to be transparent about that fact. It is important you guys know we are keeping tabs on the entire metagame and trying to find the best routes forward, even if it means some discussions do not lead to action (most do not!).
I think Garganacl is a solid OU Pokémon but, having used it since the beginning of the gen, I agree that it’s definitely not banworthy or broken as things stand right now. Gholdengo definitely needs to have a close eye kept on it, though—most of its best answers are on the ban radar right now.
Frankly, I don't think anything should be banned until tera gets removed first, and I don't see a reason for it to stick around besides some weird sudden ethnic heart change about preserving new mechanics that break everything.
and yes, i am that guy who was very optimistic and asked for us to not get rid of the fun new mechanic, feel free to call me out on those post... it stopped being fun for me and over time I think it'll stop being fun for a lot more
I'd rather we get rid of tera before looking at anything else because wallbreakers are doing so much unholy damage I don't even feel incentivized to run balance or stall to at least reduce the sheer unga boonga happening during the new toy syndrome phase of SV OU. Shit hurts because everything has perfect coverage or double the stab to muscle anything it pleases.
Palafin I can't tell if its broken or not cause I have no fucking clue if its counters can work if it can tera a type to avoid revenge killing priority or a type to neutrally or SE-ly nuke walls. Same for Chen-pao, roaring moon, and the list continues as we ban shit.. first it was flutter mane now its iron bundle and this just seems like a slippery slope waiting to happen until we eventually realize fuck tera and have to retest everything all over again in a tera-less meta or forget about them.
Right now meta feels super unoptimized cause no one can (or wants to really, why the fuck would I play stall first week lol.) wall the power creep and tera is definitely a major player in it.
And no, tera clause with showing types sounds dumb as fuck, I can't see types vs. some random i ain't in discord with on cartridge, if he teras i know he's playing the same format as me, just like sleep clause if he puts me to sleep more often...
Frankly, I don't think anything should be banned until tera gets removed first, and I don't see a reason for it to stick around besides some weird sudden ethnic heart change about preserving new mechanics that break everything.
We committed to a thread on Tera this week and made it clear the bans prior to this thread were only going to be on very egregious things. There is no "ethnic heart change" so much as just doing our due diligence and following a logical process which we have been transparent about since day one.
I wonder what UU and RU will look like with the Tera mechanic and with Pokemon like Revaroom, Brambleghast, Dachsbun and Mabosstiff, which I've yet to heard as to what kind of sets people can come with
Palafin is NOT fine, people saying otherwise are trying to sell you something. That mon was the most unbalanced addition from day one.
The only consistent answer to it is a surprise tera trick, since even the dedicated conventional answers end up losing to the taunt set. It's a bulky sweeper/priority revenge killer in one, and it has the potential to absolutely mix you with surprise band sets. It's way, way too strong for a conventional meta, has an answer for all of its checks, survives everything, wall breaks like no one's business, and is always bulky enough to survive faster priority.
The only good thing about it is it keeps a the Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao from completely overruning the meta, and I strongly suspect they'll end up having to be voted out at some point in the future after this degenerate goes. But ya, get this dolphin out ASAP before things get worse.
As for Iron Bundle... that thing would have been fair if it didn't have Freeze-Dry and have as much physical bulk as it did. That + that insane speed/spa makes it plainly too strong.
Ah yes, the year is 2022 and the most power crept OU focuses on the broken Delibird clone saving the tier from the broken goofy-whale. All is good in the world.
and 
havent tried them, but everyone agrees that is broken, and also Chesnaught no longer walls it (im still salty about that guy who took my lunch money) BAN
so this is what i initialy said about him
my opinion is the same, he is insane only because he takes perfect advantage of the crazy insane metagame right now
to me, valiant its still not broken, i haven tried goldilocks here but i wanna have some fun with choice specs because me loves damage, but i think people will eventually just start baiting him and having to prepare for him the same way spinners prepared for spinblockers in the old age, and i havent tried average leage of legends player but everyone says that is both an insane stall killer and a extremly good partner for them
