In my experience any good BP neutral STAB on Roaring Moon tends to take it out pretty quick, especially physical moves, so outside of Breloom being more common I feel like Steel is typically the safest tera type to run, but Poison also seems pretty good if only because I've rarely seen anyone try to use Ice, Dragon, or Steel up against the thing.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I dunno, Game Freak seems to give a good amount of love to the types you mentioned too. Grass got Wo-Chien and Meowscarada, Bug got Slither Wing and Lokix (though the latter is certainly overhyped), Poison got Glimmora and Clodsire, and Ice got Baxcalibur and Iron Bundle (and finally got +1 Defense in
I think weak armor is a better ability for this guy, as it patches up its speed. You die to sucker either way, but at least with weak armor you outspeed Mega Weavile so can play some sucker punch mind games. Sucker fails when you're faster than it and use shadow sneak.there will be Ubers and AG
Editing this post with a bit about ceruledge:
Ceruledge @ Spell Tag
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Bitter Blade
- Close Combat
It has lots of stats in attack and decent SpD and Spe, so naturally I tried a swords dance set. It performs quite well, the spell tag is due to the extreme offence everywhere, it lets you get KOs you otherwise wouldn’t without a boost.
It’s nice to see a viable offensive ghost type that’s a physical attacker for a change!
close combat and Tera fighting is excellent coverage, and importantly, denies revenging opportunities.
ceruledge loves preying on corviknight and can’t be walked by standard clodsire sets, as it 2hkos the unaware variants with bitter blade on the switch.
defensive Pokémon in the current meta hate fire/fighting/ghost, or if they’re sloebro, what are they gonna do? Burn it? Flash fire gives it more power..
Not to be devil's advocate but Wo-Chien is also like, the most niche of the 4 legendaries just based on the current meta from what I can gather (I think Ting-Lu might be worse?) and just to speculate for a bit I feel like if we get the legendaries back for DLC, base Kyurem is definitely going to outclass Baxcalibur but I'm also pretty sure Kyurem-base has been Ubers outside of NatDex since it was released lol. The idea that these types aren't getting anything is definitely silly though.
After gathering my thoughts for a few days I have come around to the conclusion that Tera is fun but completely bs and I’ll be happy to see it go. Many mons have been banned for their ability to be uncheckable at team preview but now the entire tier is Gen 6 Greninja at all times. The mechanic could have been so much more interesting if mons were locked to a specific Tera type so you could at least formulate some sort of game plan looking at your opponent’s team, but as it exists I feel like I’m playing fiesta slayer in Halo. The element of complete and utter luck/randomness when your check just dies definitely doesn’t feel good and I’m confident much better players than myself will articulate this in excruciating detail in the coming weeks.
Better than z-crystal format imo
Right now iron bundle is the only reliable answer to roaring moon, so if iron bundle gets banned the roaring moon's ban should follow imediately.
As for palafin hero I think that this pokemon is fine.
The 650 total stat may sound scary and ban-worthy but then if you look at the distribution you realize that the only reason they are this high is mostly because a portion of them is wasted on special attack.
I don't that there are that many players who run mixed sets.
Its defences are good but not great.
As for its attack may I remind you that in gen 8 kartana was both stronger faster AND had the beast boost ability yet it was not banned?
As for palafin hero I think that this pokemon is fine.
The 650 total stat may sound scary and ban-worthy but then if you look at the distribution you realize that the only reason they are this high is mostly because a portion of them is wasted on special attack.
I don't that there are that many players who run mixed sets.
Its defences are good but not great.
As for its attack may I remind you that in gen 8 kartana was both stronger faster AND had the beast boost ability yet it was not banned?
gen 8 kartana also had 2 DLCs worth of extra checks.
Keep in mind we're only slightly above hoenn numbers to work with rn in terms of options, so anything crazy is going to stand out like a soul dew latios.
That being said I still think teams are either over prepared for tera or cant be prepared enough because of the options and brute force it provides. Checks lose their ability to really check if tera turns most 3hko's into 2hko's while offering defensive typing.
Chien-pao in particular I can't tell if its broken or not because it can do the 1 thing any ice type wished it could, fucking get a new typing, and it functions really well with its crazy offenses (nothing new) and methods of changing what priority moves can stop it. Shed tail kinda enables it as well and I think people are sleeping on this thing in snow/veil with how much bulk that provides. I could see it being banned later on post tera, but I can't see tera staying let alone testing things before it.
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Ah yes, VGC, because 4v4 Doubles at level 50 totally has the same interesting traits as 6v6 level 100 Singles. The meta where the most interesting win to ever happen was with a Pachirisu, so GameFreak set about allowing cover legendaries of all stripes and as such hyper-centralized the game and made anything outside those and specific utility Pokemon useless in any half-serious strategy. And the meta that has certainly been around forever, without three generations of games where without bans Pokemon like Mewtwo or Kyogre would just be unstoppable and have, without them, evolved in interesting and varied ways over the long-term course decades of play.
Get out of the thread if you have nothing legitimately interesting to say, and all you have is "BANS BAD!". There's reasons Ubers and AG exist.
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Pluim
formerly goodra4thewin
I don't thnk Palafin should be compared to Kartana.
Could Kartana use Tera moves to completely counter the only mons that could beat it? No, Kart had to face teams that were much more prepped for defence, got walled by Corviknight, and didn't have priority that is 60 BP and STAB. Palafin combined with its bulk up set, and potential variants with tera make it incredibly difficult to overcome in a meta with far less checks and counters partly due to the recover nerf and less usage of defensive pokemons. Not to mention the ton of pokemon that could switch in such as Corvi, Celesteela, defensive Landorous T, and others such as Clefable if Kartana isn't banded.
Reliance on Choice Band, lack of priority, more and better checks and counters as well as a worse offensive typing made Kartana balanced.
kartana also didn’t have a technician boosted bullet punch (jet punch) to mow down offensive checks, with optional wood hammer (wave crash), drain punch and close combat for covering the switch ins.
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
I honestly don’t know why people are sleeping on Ting-Lu so much. It’s slightly physically bulkier than Melmetal, Vessel of Ruin makes it specially bulkier than Cresselia, it has two immunities, and it can set Spikes. The thing has to have some use, right?
I'd assume it does but I never see it at all. Maybe something I just don't realize makes it not that great or something.
My thoughts on what’s controversial and broken and what’s flying under the radar.
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Iron Bundle: Beyond broken. Godly speed tier, unboosted. Free boosts. Hydro + Freeze Dry slices through this meta. Nothing can switch into it besides Sylveon, which is quite good, and then unviable shit like the two pink blobs, who it can still already with via Taunt/Encore, and random stuff like Cyrogonal and random AV boys, or otherwise Defensive Tera on something bulky like Clodsire. Slowking or Amoongus. I’ve seen very little talk of the utter bullshit it can pull on rain or snow teams, either giving a free boost to Hydro Pump or making it virtually immune to priority with the defense boost. Where’s the debate here? Quick ban, please.
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Palafin: Less broken than Bad Santa, but still very, very hard to beat from both a defensive and offensive perspective. Defensive checks *checks notes, disregards Tera* there’s the Slowtwins. And funnily enough, it’s kinda food for Azurmarril to bop it with Play Rough. But that’s about it.
Toxpaex and WA Clodsire and Amoongus falter to any of Taunt, Sub and/or Zen Headbutt. Dragons - Ice Punch. Offense? Jet Punch will cleave through frail boys. I am less likely to support a quick ban here, but a suspect test will undoubtedly find it broken regardless. So I guess you could do a sus test on the dolphin in good faith to queltch all the bitching, but in all fairness, just save the time and quick ban the Florida Man and move on.
If it’s not broken now it def will be without Iron Bundle, as that is its best offensive check outside Chlorophyll mons and sun.
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Roaring Moon: The reason this is so strong is that it’s probably the best user of Tera in the meta, given its stats, Booster Energy, Sun compatibility and most importantly movepool. I think the biggest issue for moms who like to Tera is if they need to dedicate a move slot to Tera Blast for coverage they wouldn’t normally have, then that slot is useless if they do not Tera.
Moonman does not have that issue - Iron Head and Acrobatics are moves it would like to have anyway, as they complement its normal STABs. This thing doesn’t need Tera Blast, except for Fire, but you’re likely going to see that run with Sun, so it’s at least more predictable in theory. In practice it’s still boosted Fire STAB in sun + Dragon, good luck with that shit with no Heatran.
In general priority checks it, but if you guess that Tera type wrong - whoopsie daisy it’s GG! Still, analyzing the team at preview really does help predict what you think it’s going to turn into, but this guy is undoubtedly the king of 50/50s. Unlike the first two, I would say there is decent offensively and defensive counterplay. Ultimately, I would strongly support a suspect test, because it can do a lot of bullshit.
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Tera, in general: It has been argued how Terastilization favors offense and to be fair that’s true, but come on. Defensive teams are struggling in this meta in general. Look at these over powered Paradox freaks. There’s the bigger issue for stall and balance.
Defensive Tera plays can be utterly gutteral too. Have you ever used a Fire Type Breloom to beat Volcorona 1v1 with Rock Tomb? Because I have. Is it fun having Spore with a fire move to beat grass types trying to absorb it? You better believe it. That’s the type of creative team building and skillful plays Tera enables. I feel like it needs to be explored way more. What about running Fairy Ice Body Avualug in snow for the ultimate physical wall, or Dark type Slowking, for a really friggin sturdy ghost + dark check. We stand at the edge of an unexplored frontier! Frankly it is astonishing the cowardice that sees that and goes, nah, this mechanic favors offense. Let’s ban it so we can have the same-ish meta as the last 3 gens.
This is a cool mechanic that merits limitless exploration and innovation, both offensively and defensively. Does it create 50/50? Why yes it does. Welcome to competitive Pokémon, it’s always been that way. Tera is not immediately overbearing like the garbage mechanic Dynamaxing was, and it can work defensively as well as offensively. I do not support a suspect. If you’re complaining defense is struggling, ban the offensive juggernauts running this meta, and then we’ll talk.
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Shed Tail: We’re actually seeing some counter play here, and I’m enjoying the dance. Infiltrator Dragapult (who will get even more common after a Bundle ban), sound move users like Skeleridge, Sylveon, Unaware mons, phasing + hazard stack, and just generally outspeeding and hitting Cylizar. I’ve yet to see Orthworm do much work at all. All in all, it’s a good playstyle, not inherently broken as there’s counterplay. I’d support a suspect test at least.
Chien-Pao: Maybe it’s just me, but I simply have never struggled against this thing. I find I always have ample counter play to it. It’ll doubtedly do better in this meta if these broke ass water types get the boot. Suspect test someday perhaps. Not now.
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And now, my hottest take:
Espathra: You know how Demon Mew is good against noobs but also kinda sucks in general? Yeah, Espathra is like that but actually kinda good.
The set is Speed Boost, Calm Mind, Protect, Stored Power/Lumina Crash, Lum Berry and your choice of either Tera Fairy with Dazzling Gleam or Tera Fighting + Tera Blast to vex Sucker Punch.
It’s definitely overshadowed by the Paradox mons and Palafin, but The Quickster is no joke. It effortlessly acquires Speed Boosts with Protect letting it blitz through offense, while also powering up Stored Power, and with Calm Mind it is essentially getting Quiver Dances off. SP is better with screens and Shed Tail support as you can accrue more boosted, but Lumina Crash is a really dope move for quicker power that drops the opponent’s Sp Def by 2, so nothing is living another hit. Either way, it effortlessly breaks through Unaware mons, specifically with a Lum Berry so it can take a Toxic from Clodsire as it boosts or Twave from Blissey.
It falls to priority but still, it trivializes fat. If we’re aiming to make fat viable, this birds gotta go. Not the biggest broken threat here but still, I think it will need a suspect.
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Iron Bundle: Beyond broken. Godly speed tier, unboosted. Free boosts. Hydro + Freeze Dry slices through this meta. Nothing can switch into it besides Sylveon, which is quite good, and then unviable shit like the two pink blobs, who it can still already with via Taunt/Encore, and random stuff like Cyrogonal and random AV boys, or otherwise Defensive Tera on something bulky like Clodsire. Slowking or Amoongus. I’ve seen very little talk of the utter bullshit it can pull on rain or snow teams, either giving a free boost to Hydro Pump or making it virtually immune to priority with the defense boost. Where’s the debate here? Quick ban, please.
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Palafin: Less broken than Bad Santa, but still very, very hard to beat from both a defensive and offensive perspective. Defensive checks *checks notes, disregards Tera* there’s the Slowtwins. And funnily enough, it’s kinda food for Azurmarril to bop it with Play Rough. But that’s about it.
Toxpaex and WA Clodsire and Amoongus falter to any of Taunt, Sub and/or Zen Headbutt. Dragons - Ice Punch. Offense? Jet Punch will cleave through frail boys. I am less likely to support a quick ban here, but a suspect test will undoubtedly find it broken regardless. So I guess you could do a sus test on the dolphin in good faith to queltch all the bitching, but in all fairness, just save the time and quick ban the Florida Man and move on.
If it’s not broken now it def will be without Iron Bundle, as that is its best offensive check outside Chlorophyll mons and sun.
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Roaring Moon: The reason this is so strong is that it’s probably the best user of Tera in the meta, given its stats, Booster Energy, Sun compatibility and most importantly movepool. I think the biggest issue for moms who like to Tera is if they need to dedicate a move slot to Tera Blast for coverage they wouldn’t normally have, then that slot is useless if they do not Tera.
Moonman does not have that issue - Iron Head and Acrobatics are moves it would like to have anyway, as they complement its normal STABs. This thing doesn’t need Tera Blast, except for Fire, but you’re likely going to see that run with Sun, so it’s at least more predictable in theory. In practice it’s still boosted Fire STAB in sun + Dragon, good luck with that shit with no Heatran.
In general priority checks it, but if you guess that Tera type wrong - whoopsie daisy it’s GG! Still, analyzing the team at preview really does help predict what you think it’s going to turn into, but this guy is undoubtedly the king of 50/50s. Unlike the first two, I would say there is decent offensively and defensive counterplay. Ultimately, I would strongly support a suspect test, because it can do a lot of bullshit.
—————
Tera, in general: It has been argued how Terastilization favors offense and to be fair that’s true, but come on. Defensive teams are struggling in this meta in general. Look at these over powered Paradox freaks. There’s the bigger issue for stall and balance.
Defensive Tera plays can be utterly gutteral too. Have you ever used a Fire Type Breloom to beat Volcorona 1v1 with Rock Tomb? Because I have. Is it fun having Spore with a fire move to beat grass types trying to absorb it? You better believe it. That’s the type of creative team building and skillful plays Tera enables. I feel like it needs to be explored way more. What about running Fairy Ice Body Avualug in snow for the ultimate physical wall, or Dark type Slowking, for a really friggin sturdy ghost + dark check. We stand at the edge of an unexplored frontier! Frankly it is astonishing the cowardice that sees that and goes, nah, this mechanic favors offense. Let’s ban it so we can have the same-ish meta as the last 3 gens.
This is a cool mechanic that merits limitless exploration and innovation, both offensively and defensively. Does it create 50/50? Why yes it does. Welcome to competitive Pokémon, it’s always been that way. Tera is not immediately overbearing like the garbage mechanic Dynamaxing was, and it can work defensively as well as offensively. I do not support a suspect. If you’re complaining defense is struggling, ban the offensive juggernauts running this meta, and then we’ll talk.
————-
Shed Tail: We’re actually seeing some counter play here, and I’m enjoying the dance. Infiltrator Dragapult (who will get even more common after a Bundle ban), sound move users like Skeleridge, Sylveon, Unaware mons, phasing + hazard stack, and just generally outspeeding and hitting Cylizar. I’ve yet to see Orthworm do much work at all. All in all, it’s a good playstyle, not inherently broken as there’s counterplay. I’d support a suspect test at least.
Chien-Pao: Maybe it’s just me, but I simply have never struggled against this thing. I find I always have ample counter play to it. It’ll doubtedly do better in this meta if these broke ass water types get the boot. Suspect test someday perhaps. Not now.
—————-
And now, my hottest take:
Espathra: You know how Demon Mew is good against noobs but also kinda sucks in general? Yeah, Espathra is like that but actually kinda good.
The set is Speed Boost, Calm Mind, Protect, Stored Power/Lumina Crash, Lum Berry and your choice of either Tera Fairy with Dazzling Gleam or Tera Fighting + Tera Blast to vex Sucker Punch.
It’s definitely overshadowed by the Paradox mons and Palafin, but The Quickster is no joke. It effortlessly acquires Speed Boosts with Protect letting it blitz through offense, while also powering up Stored Power, and with Calm Mind it is essentially getting Quiver Dances off. SP is better with screens and Shed Tail support as you can accrue more boosted, but Lumina Crash is a really dope move for quicker power that drops the opponent’s Sp Def by 2, so nothing is living another hit. Either way, it effortlessly breaks through Unaware mons, specifically with a Lum Berry so it can take a Toxic from Clodsire as it boosts or Twave from Blissey.
It falls to priority but still, it trivializes fat. If we’re aiming to make fat viable, this birds gotta go. Not the biggest broken threat here but still, I think it will need a suspect.
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Just use tidy up lmfao (It's a joke, maushold sucks but still lmao)
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
My guess is that it probably has something to do with the fact that the best Pokémon in the meta right now are:
- A Water/Ice type that basically only clicks Water or Ice moves
- A Water-type with base 160 Attack
- An Ice-type with an Ability that lowers Defense
- A Fighting/Fairy type
- A physically bulky Ground/Fighting type
- A Dark-type that frequently Teras into Flying
- And they’re all enabled by a Pokémon that can give them Substitute basically for free, so trying to set up hazards is dangerous if it leads
Yessuh!
Okay, even if the comparison isn't that good palafin still isn't good enough to be ban worthy.
It often runs close combat meaning that its defences are less impressive than they look.
Paldean tauros are amazing intumidate users rn aswell to be honest, one the bird and palafin are gone we will prob see em more
Gen 8 kartana had less spd which made it abusable and it didn't have a priority stab like the op dolphin does. Being honest roaring moon has way more counters I feel like ppl just don't think so much because they haven't looked yet and the crazy amount of options available yet, I usually handle it quite well and force to waste tera rly well which doesn't save him of a revenge kill.
What counters does roaring moon have aside from iron bundle?
Also I don't see many people using palafin's priority stab that ofter, are you sure it is an issue?
Pluim
formerly goodra4thewin
The set that mainly is considered broken is the Bulk Up set which usually runs Drain Punch instead of Close Combat. It has other mix ups including close combat and tera as well as non bulk up variants, and tera in particular allows it to smash slow bro (which isn't widely used in this current meta). Ice punch / Taunt can cover for amoonguss (Taunt being on the problematic Bulk Up set) so theres no reliable counter.
Palafins priority stab is it's most used move probably... And besides just beacuse you dont see it doesn't mean its not an issue. I personally see it and use it myself so whats your point.
No offense... That isn't an argument for why it would be balanced. And anyways, i would recommend reading this which talks about developments that several believe have pushed it over the edge, and would help to understand why its in the spotlight.
I've had EQ from 'Mons that have STAB OHKO Roaring Moon incredibly easy, and if you don't use your tera on it (which you really should, it's probably the best abuser of it atm) any fairy type move from a competent attacker or Breloom with Mach Punch gets rid of it pretty easily.
Saying "any fairy type move" does not mean anything since this pokemon's ability lets it get an almost free 50% speed boost.if it kills you before you get the cance to kill it then you will have problems.
And breloom has its issues.
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