Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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So I'm looking at Mabosstiff, and I'm curoius on what it could do. Guard Dog is basically an anti-Intimidate ability that's also mixed with Suction Cups, plus it bears a solid base 120 Atk and a respectable speed of 85. Doesn't really pack any coverage outside of Fire Fang for Bug types but it does have Crunch to cripple the enemy's Defense, and Comeuppance sounds like a nuke like a Dark type Counter

EDIT: I rechecked and it has Play Rough for Fighting Types, which is already better in terms of coverage
There is surprisingly practically no intimidators running around right now. Just Gyarados, Salamence and Arcanine that nobody is using? The ability will be more relevant when lord Landorus returns, and perhaps Incineroar in VGC that would be throwing intimidates left and right.
Wonder what lower tier pokemon with intimidate could be countered by Masbosstiff...
 
The only consistent answer to it is a surprise tera trick, since even the dedicated conventional answers end up losing to the taunt set. It's a bulky sweeper/priority revenge killer in one, and it has the potential to absolutely mix you with surprise band sets. It's way, way too strong for a conventional meta, has an answer for all of its checks, survives everything, wall breaks like no one's business, and is always bulky enough to survive faster priority.
Palafin is literally what Chien-Pao is trying to be but can't. Its strong, its priority isn't hinge on any of your opponents actions unlike sucker punch. It can tank virtually any unboosted hit in the tier from full and KO back. It has a recovery move (granted its reliant on its damage output but its attack stat is insane)

And to top it all off, its one of THE MOST prevalent tera users to beat its counters or to secure a sweep with tera water. In an offensive meta-game I am unsure if 1 free turn for your opponent by switching it out that is also very telegraphed that they are switching makes it less broken but we'll see once we can get some stats on the ladder.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
the year is 2022, and lando is unviable in OU, it cannot check anything in the tier and it wonders when is it gonna see a use
Honestly, speaking of Lando, i think with almost no utility moves in his arsenal, he is no longer the solution to all problems, but i think theres still a place for it with some sets
Choice Scarf Lando with taunt
Choice Band Lando
Bulky Uturn Spam with rocks
Suicide Lead with rocks

with no longer access to defog, knock off and toxic, he needs to take on a more offensive role, and this is gonna make him a bit more predictable, also, if tera is still by that time, you can be ceratin terra blast ice will be seen just to scare him

EDIT: I ALSO FORGOT, DO NOT RELEASE LANDO-I TO OU, NOTHING HAS CHANGED, HE IS STILL BROKEN, THIS HAS BEEN HAPPENING SINCE GEN 5, PLEASE NOT AGAIN
 

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
want to add a bit of info about the tera types roaring moon uses and why
1. moon uses tera flying because it resists bug (first impression) AND body press from corviknight/mach punch from breloom while boosting the power of acro to grab kos more easily, but keeps it weak to ice
2. tera steel moon exists and is the main competition with flying because it resists bug just like it but it also resists fairy, steel, ice, and dragon
3. overall very minor relatively post-flutter ban but tera poison moon compresses the fairy resist, fighting resist, and bug resist while making it only neutral to ice, steel, and dragon
 
its SO slept on bro it has an amazing speed tier, bulk, typing, volt switch, good enough power (64 evs in SpA and a life orb let thunder ko through defensive corv's leftovers), as well as bountiful options as a teralyzer.

also on another note: nothing this meta could throw at us could prepare us for whats coming

prepare yourselves

for him
View attachment 467635
Man's gonna be banned to quadruple ubers faster than Flutter Mane could ever dream of.
 
There is surprisingly practically no intimidators running around right now. Just Gyarados, Salamence and Arcanine that nobody is using? The ability will be more relevant when lord Landorus returns, and perhaps Incineroar in VGC that would be throwing intimidates left and right.
Wonder what lower tier pokemon with intimidate could be countered by Masbosstiff...
I’ve actually had a good bit of success running Gyarados with Sub/DD/Waterfall/EQ and Tera Ground! It’s not perfect, but it’s wayyyy better than last gen.
 
Palafin is NOT fine, people saying otherwise are trying to sell you something. That mon was the most unbalanced addition from day one.

The only consistent answer to it is a surprise tera trick, since even the dedicated conventional answers end up losing to the taunt set. It's a bulky sweeper/priority revenge killer in one, and it has the potential to absolutely mix you with surprise band sets. It's way, way too strong for a conventional meta, has an answer for all of its checks, survives everything, wall breaks like no one's business, and is always bulky enough to survive faster priority.

The only good thing about it is it keeps a the Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao from completely overruning the meta, and I strongly suspect they'll end up having to be voted out at some point in the future after this degenerate goes. But ya, get this dolphin out ASAP before things get worse.

As for Iron Bundle... that thing would have been fair if it didn't have Freeze-Dry and have as much physical bulk as it did. That + that insane speed/spa makes it plainly too strong.
Not the dolphin. He is fine. I feel like if all keep for bans, we won’t have enough toys to play with by the end of the year. Wait a month before rash decisions are made. It’s been less than a week :(
 
want to add a bit of info about the tera types roaring moon uses and why
1. moon uses tera flying because it resists bug (first impression) AND body press from corviknight/mach punch from breloom while boosting the power of acro to grab kos more easily, but keeps it weak to ice
2. tera steel moon exists and is the main competition with flying because it resists bug just like it but it also resists fairy, steel, ice, and dragon
3. overall very minor relatively post-flutter ban but tera poison moon compresses the fairy resist, fighting resist, and bug resist while making it only neutral to ice, steel, and dragon
Having a Sunny Day setter removes the need of holding a Booster Energy.
 
Honestly, I'd have thought that Dragapult being essentially freed thanks to Flutter Mane no longer competing with it for team slots would drop Palafin's viability or at the very least force it between some real teambuilding dilemmas.

We'll assume that Bulk Up Palafin-Hero manages to get in for essentially free and use a Bulk Up while you're switching in a very ordinary Specs Dragapult.

Bulk Up Palafin better be using Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt or be forced to Tera or it's getting 2HKOd, and honestly, a little chip means that non-Tera non-bulky Palafin-Hero is getting OHKOd by a bog-standard Draco Meteor (the Thunderbolt calcs are actually worse than the Draco Meteor calcs):

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 297-349 (73.5 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 445-524 (110.1 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 362-428 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 193-228 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 213-251 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 109-129 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 119-141 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 119-141 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 120-141 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 120-141 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 131-155 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 131-155 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 146-172 (45.9 - 54%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 146-172 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 159-188 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 160-189 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By the way, the Punching Glove boost is assumed to be 1.1x according to https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-data-mechanics.3709515/page-342#post-9398941. (The portion of that post that assumes that the Punching Glove stacks with Iron Fist is incorrect, though.)

Bulk Up Palafin-Hero loses quite a bit of its ability to stomp on multiple members of stall teams in the same game if it opts for Ice Punch instead of the Toxic-warding Taunt. ...And it loses its ability to anti-lead against Sticky Web and Trick Room leads, too.

Jolly Choice Band Palafin similarly OHKOs Dragapult back with Ice Punch (although Dragapult will likely be a coward and not switch into Palafin-Hero), but let's see how well Wave Crash does:

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 217-256 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.7 - 20.9% recoil damage)

...huh, Pult can't really switch into Palafin-Hero anyway.
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
Not the dolphin. He is fine. I feel like if all keep for bans, we won’t have enough toys to play with by the end of the year. Wait a month before rash decisions are made. It’s been less than a week :(
It has base 160 Attack and has both Speed and bulk to back it up. The damn thing literally has an Ubers stat spread and a 60-power STAB priority move and people are pretending like it’s fine because there are two things that sometimes beat it. I’m sick and tired of people defending blatantly broken shit because they personally like the design of the mon. It happened with Genesect, it happened with Mega Metagross, and now it’s happening here.
 
Honestly, I'd have thought that Dragapult being essentially freed thanks to Flutter Mane no longer competing with it for team slots would drop Palafin's viability or at the very least force it between some real teambuilding dilemmas.

We'll assume that Bulk Up Palafin-Hero manages to get in for essentially free and use a Bulk Up while you're switching in a very ordinary Specs Dragapult.

Bulk Up Palafin better be using Ice Punch or Zen Headbutt or be forced to Tera or it's getting 2HKOd, and honestly, a little chip means that non-Tera non-bulky Palafin-Hero is getting OHKOd by a bog-standard Draco Meteor (the Thunderbolt calcs are actually worse than the Draco Meteor calcs):

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 297-349 (87 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 297-349 (73.5 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Palafin-Hero: 445-524 (110.1 - 129.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 362-428 (113.8 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 193-228 (60.6 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 213-251 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 109-129 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 119-141 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 119-141 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 120-141 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 120-141 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 131-155 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Punching Glove Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 131-155 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 146-172 (45.9 - 54%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 146-172 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 159-188 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Tera Water Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 160-189 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

By the way, the Punching Glove boost is assumed to be 1.1x according to https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-data-mechanics.3709515/page-342#post-9398941. (The portion of that post that assumes that the Punching Glove stacks with Iron Fist is incorrect, though.)

Bulk Up Palafin-Hero loses quite a bit of its ability to stomp on multiple members of stall teams in the same game if it opts for Ice Punch instead of the Toxic-warding Taunt. ...And it loses its ability to anti-lead against Sticky Web and Trick Room leads, too.

Jolly Choice Band Palafin similarly OHKOs Dragapult back with Ice Punch (although Dragapult will likely be a coward and not switch into Palafin-Hero), but let's see how well Wave Crash does:

252 Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 217-256 (68.2 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (17.7 - 20.9% recoil damage)

...huh, Pult can't really switch into Palafin-Hero anyway.
wow, Dragapult seems really nice to revenge Bundle and Palafin. And the Spec Draco Metor could be quite strong now, with a minor useful Steel and Fairy type before Home.
 
Hey everybody, I've just hit rank 1 on ladder
1669093905143.png

so I figured I would chime in again on what I'd consider to be strongest right now (which I would assume echoes a lot of the thoughts in this thread, I haven't read everything).

Iron Bundle @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 44 HP / 212 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Freeze-Dry
- Flip Turn
- Encore

Iron Bundle stepped up right into Flutter Mane's place in my opinion. This mon is very strong (this set hits 1 spatk point higher than Flutter Mane did, actually) and its speed outruns everything besides pult even without a boost assuming you are timid. Booster Energy allows it to revenge most boosted threats and maintains the ability to change up your move, while tera ice lets you stay in and usually kill opposing specs Bundles clicking freeze dry. The speed boost with encore also lets you shut down some setup or win vs Chien sucker. I think this is simply just another Flutter Mane problem - it utilizes too many items very well (specs, boots, booster energy, and scarf are all very viable) with an offensive spread that is just too good for most mons to face down. Its physical bulk also lets it eat up most non-super effective priority, namely Palafin jet punch but also boots (and maybe life orb? I think that's a roll) sucker from Chien-Pao. However, I think if Bundle was banned without some other threats (namely Palafin) going along with it, it could continue to push the meta to be even more dominated by physical attackers that Bundle is largely able to keep in check.

Palafin-Hero @ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
- Taunt

I'm pretty sure I've sang this sets praises in a previous post, but it's just too good man. It finishes off probably at least half of my endgames because of how easy it is to pilot into a winning position. Getting its base form in while only taking like 20% is pretty simple even if you do not lead with it (which I recommend against as it is very easy to be on the back foot the entire game if your opponent takes advantage), and from there if your opponent slips up once or even just kills something on your team with an unboosted physical mon the game is typically over. The mon has solid natural bulk (100/97/87), meaning with the bulk up boost its extremely hard to take down. Non-specs Bundles also only do around 70% and give most of Palafin's HP back via drain punch. Plus, even if you do not want to run its best setin bulky taunt, band is also extremely strong and I am sure a punching glove ice punch set could work to take out Clodsire. Plus every tera is available to you if you need to get past a certain answer. So yeah, I think this mon is simply too limiting for the meta and hopefully should go in order to open up room for others to shine.

Glimmora @ Focus Sash
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Mortal Spin
- Energy Ball
- Stealth Rock

Glimmora is lowkey probably one of the top 10 mons this gen. It is simply able to do so much, whether that be as a suicide lead or as a sash mon to pivot around later in the game. Energy ball and earth power catch the common counterleads, so even if you don't get rocks up, there's a good chance you're coming off the lead with a mon dead and a tspike up on your opponent's side. Its special movepool is pretty wide and I would bet offensive sets or even corrosion toxic would be able to catch many people off guard. I'm a big fan of this mon and I think it pairs ridiculously well with Gholdengo, who is generally able to dissuade removal and take advantage of the mons that Glimmora dislikes. Speaking of Gholdengo:

Gholdengo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 100 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick

Like I said above, Gholdengo pairs ridiculously well with Glimmora on hyper offensive teams in order to keep hazards up and often punch holes in your opponent's team. Its ability completely invalidates some mons, making it extremely easy to come in on Corviknight, Breloom, and Amoonguss, to name a few. Specs is my personal favorite set for the massive amount of punishment it can dish out for slipping up once during the game, plus its ability to 2hko unaware Clodsire and generally beat down even boosted threats (I've noticed this most with Espathra). Ghost/Steel is an excellent typing to nobody's surprise and its natural bulk has allowed it to 1v1 many strong mons in this meta while easily killing back (the most prominent of these are +1 Palafin, Bundle, and Chien-Pao (if you tera fairy)). Like the other mons I have mentioned, it also has some variability in viable sets with scarf, balloon, and leftovers all working well on it. Gholdengo is not something to be banned, but I expect to see it continue to rise in usage and eventually become a mon that is everywhere due to it excelling in everything it is meant to do.

Also shed tail is an uncompetitive mechanic even if I don't think its broken/too strong right now
 
Iron bundle stocks plummet 4000%
Perhaps I was too harsh to you, dear penguin.

(on topic: What do you guys use to answer Great tusk? best I can find is gholdengo with a make it rain nuke, but I've been using rocky helmet corvi and it's pretty decent at scaring it from clicking rapid spin without fearing a headlong rush or eq like ghol)
 

Finchinator

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Let's ban everything we consider too offensive because we cannot think of a metagame that isn't leaning towards a balance playstyle, otherwise the competitive scene will be dead (look at VGC, the most uncompetitive format there is).
We banned two Pokemon that made the game unplayable. If that’s too much for you, then I am sorry, but there’s not much we can do for you.

Also, last generation closed more offensive than balanced, but go off I guess.
 
Gholdengo is not something to be banned
Thanks for an insightful post, tho it’s possible gholdeno will be on the chopping block once the big 5 are gone… immunity to all status and its typing is ridiculous.

It also has optimised stats and can make favourable trades with offensive Pokémon by investing defensively in its EVs. It’s ability to recover health by switching/double switching in on almost any defensive Pokémon and clicking recover will definitely not go unnoticed once the current heavyweights are banned and the meta becomes less offensive.

as usual gamefreak loves giving steel types a lot of love, to no one’s surprise! If only the bloody grasses/bugs and non legendary poisons/ice had remotely as good abilities, stat spreads and move pools
 
Perhaps I was too harsh to you, dear penguin.

(on topic: What do you guys use to answer Great tusk? best I can find is gholdengo with a make it rain nuke, but I've been using rocky helmet corvi and it's pretty decent at scaring it from clicking rapid spin without fearing a headlong rush or eq like ghol)
I really like Tera Ghost Nacl as a spinblocker in general, and it does have a pretty decent matchup into Great Tusk as long as he doesn't have an Atk boost.
 
Let's ban everything we consider too offensive because we cannot think of a metagame that isn't leaning towards a balance playstyle, otherwise the competitive scene will be dead (look at VGC, the most uncompetitive format there is).
there will be Ubers and AG

Editing this post with a bit about ceruledge:

:ceruledge:

Ceruledge @ Spell Tag
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Bitter Blade
- Close Combat

It has lots of stats in attack and decent SpD and Spe, so naturally I tried a swords dance set. It performs quite well, the spell tag is due to the extreme offence everywhere, it lets you get KOs you otherwise wouldn’t without a boost.

It’s nice to see a viable offensive ghost type that’s a physical attacker for a change!

close combat and Tera fighting is excellent coverage, and importantly, denies revenging opportunities.

ceruledge loves preying on corviknight and can’t be walked by standard clodsire sets, as it 2hkos the unaware variants with bitter blade on the switch.

defensive Pokémon in the current meta hate fire/fighting/ghost, or if they’re sloebro, what are they gonna do? Burn it? Flash fire gives it more power..
 
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