Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Turtleye_]

I've gotten some games in now vs Bundle and it seems that the best answers are simply just defensive terastalizing. Specifically, I swapped my Clodsire from Unaware to Water Absorb with Normal Tera (For now - this might change depending on which attackers start appearing) and it's handled Bundle pretty well so far. You do have to get it in without eating a Freeze Dry to the face but with some decent prediction or double switches you can pull this off pretty handily.

I've tried other water immunities like Gastro or Vaporeon, but they are a tier below Clodsire.

Clodsire stonks at an all-time high tbh.

That aside, I've been running Boots Encore / Hydro / Freeze Dry / Flipt Turn Bundle on the same team and it's been a real nice disruptor, being able to lock opposing mons into redundant status moves. Especially recovery moves are great, nabbing an extra PP off those can be pivotal depending on the rest of the team.

Also, CB scizor slaps ngl.

 

[MasterPlayer]

I don't understand how Sylveon lost Mystical Fire when some sites like Serebii says that it can still learn the move

 

[1LDK]

IF YA SMEEEELLL
WHAT THE MODS
ARE COOKING

 

[Finchinator]

How come hazard stacking + spin blocker was fine back in gens 2-5 but one pokemon being able to block defog is enough to potentially get it on the radar?

It's literally not on the radar in the post directly above yours. Just getting discussion.

And also, that comparison is nonsense. Only one layer of Spikes in generation 2, Pursuit trapped Spinblockers in each generation, and horribly limited distribution of Spikes. All of these drastically warp the dynamic you are alleging to be comparable.

This is complete apples-to-oranges.

 

[Pabloaram]

It's literally not on the radar in the post directly above yours. Just getting discussion.

Gholdengo player eating good rn

 

[MasterPlayer]

It's a shame that Excadrill was removed from the Paldea dex, because it would have probably been the only spinner (should it somehow have Rapid Spin as well) that can actually threaten Gholdengo if it tries to come in to spinblock

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Welp it seems we know which two caught the eyes of the council. Yeah iron bundle and Palafin-H are probably gone soon if I had to guess.

 

[Bold School]

It's a shame that Excadrill was removed from the Paldea dex, because it would have probably been the only spinner (should it somehow have Rapid Spin as well) that can actually threaten Gholdengo if it tries to come in to spinblock

Literally Great Tusk and Iron Treads?

 

[LordHelix]

It's literally not on the radar in the post directly above yours. Just getting discussion.

Im not saying its on the radar i was just responding in general abt people complaining that gholdengos ability to block defog makes it suspect worthy.

Which is bizarre, the meta is more than well equipped to deal with hazards + gholdengo.

We have much better rapid spinners, heavy duty boots invalidating hazards + coupled with the point that knock off distribution is severely limited, we lost almost all out pivots and offensive threats with knock making boots much more free

And also, that comparison is nonsense. Only one layer of Spikes in generation 2, Pursuit trapped Spinblockers in each generation, and horribly limited distribution of Spikes. All of these drastically warp the dynamic you are alleging to be comparable.

This is complete apples-to-oranges.

Ik many factors were different but effective hazard stacking teams did exist, especially in gen 4/5. And my point was that you werent able to spin freely either and it wasnt broken

Edit: Ill stop focusing on this comparison since its irrelevant to curren meta anyways

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Literally Great Tusk and Iron Treads?

Yeah treads is a really great answer to Goldengo. Slept on mon that can answer Goldengo quite well since its basically excadrill at home with a better speed stat.

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

I think bundle is a very good mon in the tier but not over centralizing at all.


Its choice sets get beat by common defensive cores that can switch around it or just outright beat it if it clicks anything than pump which can miss since it doesn't get any other good water stab. Seen some people run tera blast water just to have a reliable stab but committing your entire tera type just for that when you can tera into something that can beat its other counters or just use it on a better pokemon is restricting on your own team, also goes without saying when you're choiced your switch ins are very limited without proper support.

I think its non choice sets with taunt are more problematic for certain teamstyles. But even then those sets are not strong enough to 1v1 healthy offensive pokemon without energy booster but then you're weak to rocks. Most likely have to hit multiple pumps in a row to have a chance at breaking vs defensive teams (alot of offensive teams too) otherwise corviknight, spdef garg, gholdengo or literally anything tera'd into ice resist or literally anything coming in on freeze-dry just come in and beats it.

What I like most about this mon is that it limits people using palafin recklessly. But a good player can still play around it and setup their palafin to beat it with tera steel because non choiced bundle cannot beat a healthy palafin-steel and a choiced bundle has to predict the steel tera to beat it AND HIT PUMP.

Great pokemon, has glaring issues that are easy to solve in teambuilder as you can prepare for multiple of its sets with just hazards and common defensive pokemon, or terastilizing.

I disagree. I've found it to be very restrictive teambuilding wise, forcing tons of priority or bulk lest you be run down by the silly bird. on the gholdengo note i feel like its just too slow to actually be a threat, and considering the best removers are ones that have answers to it (great tusk/iron treads can kill it and corv can tank a move and u-turn) i think its completely fine for now (especially because of how hard it is to switch into great tusk especially, and iron treads can just volt switch)

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

I am not a fan of splitting such a young metagame in half, splitting playerbase and all.

I am down with the concept of revealing tera type for sake of more farrer, if less accurate to cartridge metagame. Accuracy, like in the past, can bend for sake, I am not sure what in this case, but I also can picture this leading into many, and I many, slippery slopes.

 

[Taka]

Literally Great Tusk and Iron Treads?

iron treads probably does it even better than drill could, and can pivot out unlike drill. Tusk on the other hand cannot risk a specs make it rain, but it also does ohko back

 

[MasterPlayer]

Literally Great Tusk and Iron Treads?

Wait I forgot Iron Threads is just Excadrill 2.0. Still would've liked to see an old mon that can be used as a reliable spinner in this odd generation

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

Yeah treads is a really great answer to Goldengo. Slept on mon that can answer Goldengo quite well since its basically excadrill at home with a better speed stat.

its SO slept on bro it has an amazing speed tier, bulk, typing, volt switch, good enough power (64 evs in SpA and a life orb let thunder ko through defensive corv's leftovers), as well as bountiful options as a teralyzer.

also on another note: nothing this meta could throw at us could prepare us for whats coming

prepare yourselves

for him

 

[BeeOrSomething]

 

[Moyashi]

Most likely have to hit multiple pumps in a row to have a chance at breaking vs defensive teams (alot of offensive teams too) otherwise corviknight, spdef garg, gholdengo or literally anything tera'd into ice resist or literally anything coming in on freeze-dry just come in and beats it.

Accuracy should never be part of an argument for a mon being balanced. Past that, many offensive mons fall into KO range with just a little chip, which can easily be achieved with hazard support. And remember Iron Bundle is the second fasted unboosted mon in OU right now. As for supposed defensive checks, Corv has to run high spdef investment to avoid a hydro pump 2HKO with rocks up and loses to choice sets, Gholdengo is vulnerable to scarf (and without lefties is prone to being put into 2HKO pump range). Garg is 2HKOd by freeze dry into hydro pump on any non choice set and dies to specs pump. As for using tera into ice resist, being forced to use the mechanic to not be so pressured by it (and thus limiting options) is actually a great case for Iron Bundle being over centralizing.

While it has some defensive answers like AV Iron Hands or Blissey/Chansey, the latter two are almost unseen right now and the former still has to deal with no recovery outside drain punch, and it gets worn down by spikes quickly. The biggest offender, imo, to Bundle being possibly (probably) overbearing is its much lesser vulnerability to priority. Nothing except CB Breloom Mach Punch gets it from full, making the list of offensive tools to handle it much shorter than it should be.

 

[KamenOH]

My main question is,
What is wrong with a meta that has Hyper Offense as its standard, its main form of play? People aren't reporting cancerous levels of ditto, unlike the days of early to mid gen 8 before it got slowed the fuck down, and there are defensive cores that are fuckin viable even.
Now, there are some pokemon that are too much even for this, where their only counterplay is themselves but scarfed, or scarf ditto, and really imo that was just Fluttershy. Everything else, including the dog (but thats old fuckin news at this rate) seems to be defeatable if you actually prepare. The meta is new, so we can't blaze our guns, but we can take note, and adapt like we always have.

 

[Ctann]

I think all of them are too much, it’ll come down to howfast the community wants to get rid of them of course..

there’s also the fire dark that lowers all SpDef, I think it’s a matter of time before it goes too, seeing as it’s 328 speed will actually be good when all these fast threats are gone.

seriously tho.. wouldn’t be surprised if other Pokémon unexpectedly get banned soon, for example goldengo has the same spammable shadow ball that made dragapult OP, and it might not have speed, but it’s signature rain move is better than meteor with the effects, and it has excellent utility when switched into defensive Pokémon.

 

[Turtleye_]

its SO slept on bro it has an amazing speed tier, bulk, typing, volt switch, good enough power (64 evs in SpA and a life orb let thunder ko through defensive corv's leftovers), as well as bountiful options as a teralyzer.

also on another note: nothing this meta could throw at us could prepare us for whats coming

prepare yourselves

for him
View attachment 467635

Nah no way this mon stays for even more than 1 day

 

[iruchii]

I don't get the argument that revealing Tera types is "changing cartridge mechanics". Team sheets have been a thing forever in offline tournaments, this is just a "gentlemen rule" to write your Tera types down, just as much as every other tiering rule, banned moves/abilities, etc, clauses. Worth giving it a try IMO, if Tera is indeed found to be problematic and anti-competitive.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Hol up Lando-Incarnate is gonna shred the entire tier apart with Sheer Force plus it might make Sand Teams a nightmare with Sand Force

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

for him
View attachment 467635

No shot in hell that Nasty Plot Lando-I gets even a day in OU this gen lol. Legitimately the one move that mon didn't need.

I imagine people will try and make a similar set with Lando-T a thing in its stead.

 

[oopsalldeoxys]

Wait I forgot Iron Threads is just Excadrill 2.0. Still would've liked to see an old mon that can be used as a reliable spinner in this odd generation

dont forget donphan was spinnin almost 10 years before exca was even born

 

[akuto]

I don't agree with revealing Tera type on team preview. The goal of a simulator should be to most accurately reflect cartridge mechanics. Such a mechanic is not replicable on cartridge and feels like its more about preserving the gimmick than anything else.

I also don't agree with multiple tiers because the playerbase ends up getting split between the two. Similar things happened in BW with the Dream World tier which never really solidified.

I do believe a tera ban is reasonable for now until the metagame has settled, with the option to retest it later once optimum sets have been created. Right now, I believe tera is adding an extra layer of instability to a tier that is already messy. 1v1 is implementing a similar approach and I think it's a wise one to follow. It feels like it would let the meta breathe which it really needs to do right now in my opinion.

You don't need a preview on cartridge to be able to preview eachothers tera types, it can just be a rule that both players tell eachother their tera types before you send out leads kindof like a gentlemans agreement. If both players agree to the smogon ruleset ingame, then they would be required to tell eachother the tera's before the battle otherwise they can just refuse to play eachother if one player refuses to accept the rule, just like literally any rule that we have.

I also do not think its fair to say a tera ban is reasonable because the meta game just started and its messy, I think quite the opposite logic applies. If we were to ban terraing THEN let the meta game develop without it then retest terraing later that would only cause MORE problems than there are now in regards to stability of the meta. If tera goes it'll likely never come back that way. I think the meta should be developed with tera existing so people can have time to find reliable counter measures to different sets and different team compositions that work well and against and with the mechanic. Then after maybe a few more weeks to a month if people still cannot find reliable ways to work around it, then we can talk about banning it or changing it.