Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion [ SEE POST #5886 — mechanics update ]

Terrastalizing has been a bit underwhelming to me. Its not the automatic KO machine it was being hyped up as going in, and honestly reading the entire thread I feel like theres a solid group of people who want it gone because its different and creates a new metagame. Its normal for most games to have radical gameplay shifts if not entire genre shifts but for some reason pokemon needs to be the same for 20 years and forever. Most likely gen10 gamefreak dumps terra themselves and makes a new mechanic entirely, so why not just play something different for a change?

I have no ball in the game, but curious about the response.
Since Tera and non-Tera metagames would shape up very differently and especially considering bans, maybe running both simultaneously could be an option? It'd be a shame to miss out on how either would develop with or without Tera, both look quite interesting to me.
Of course it'd be extra work and a hassle working out how that would impact other tiers and how that should be handled.
I've had the same thoughts on say a XY/ORAS split when the latter released, for the same reasons.
Strong agreement, but It seems like this isnt a popular idea on smogon. Ive never understand why more metagames dont fork out into multiple paths. A terra ladder and a non terra ladder for OU seems very obvious as a solution. Let the player base decide which one they want to play and enjoy more in the long run. I find it quite sad that a fun and fascinating mechanic is going to be thrown in the garbage with a quickban before most people can even play with it.

Edit: Should mention I appreciate finch's take that the most blatant offenders get banned and then see if its still generally a problem. Flutter Mane would be OP in any metagame for instance. I feel like Terra when used by 'normal' pokes that are not obviously broken is both manageable and very fun.
 
People are sleeping hard on Garganacl. Probably my favorite mon of the generation so far, ability plus signature move are both super strong. Feels like it will be solidly OU without being broken. Honestly the signature move is pretty broken. This is the set I've been using:

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover

Tera type is flexible but I like fighting for STAB body press.

Here is an example of what it can do:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1715324836
 
People are sleeping hard on Garganacl. Probably my favorite mon of the generation so far, ability plus signature move are both super strong. Feels like it will be solidly OU without being broken. Honestly the signature move is pretty broken. This is the set I've been using:

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover

Tera type is flexible but I like fighting for STAB body press.

Here is an example of what it can do:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1715324836
Garganacl is the best Anti-Stall Mon probably top 10 in OU rn
 

:blobthinking: coming soon to a thread near you
I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.

The most glaring example here is Cyclizar. He is not the only shed tail user, Orthworm can use it too, and after this mon will be gone, ppl will just start using Orthworm. I think both mons are not ban worthy: it's the move itself that is broken, not the mons. This is why i would love to see less mon bans and more bans on moves or items, bc just banning the mons will not resolve the real problem.

Another example (this is true only in some cases tho) are the paradox mons, which at least in my opinion go over the edge and start becoming ban worthy only thanks to the new item booster energy. It's basically a much better terrain seed, and it even works like a choice item with boosting moves, also it gives too much freedom of sets to too many paradox mons. It is this that makes the mons broken, not the mons in itself.
A glaring example of this is Iron Valiant, which i don't think it's broken on his own, but becomes susceptible to ban when booster energy enters the equation. This is true for a lot of paradox mons, and when these will get banned, some other paradox mon with the same booster energy will become broken too, bc it's the item itself that is broken.

Houndstone is here in the list, let's be honest, just bc of the move "last respect". It's the move that is completely broken, and it's what needs to be banned, not the mon. When Home will be active, we also won't need to ban a mon for almost no reasons. As it is, Hounstone without last respect is defo not broken.

I also want to add that the ban we need the most now is terastal bc it is completely broken, and should truly be the first thing we ban.


To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.

A final though.
This new generation is very different compared to the last one, so we should change our prospective towards bans too. Changing the way we go about bans may also promove the differentation between teams and bring more variety to the meta.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.

The most glaring example here is Cyclizar. He is not the only shed tail user, Orthworm can use it too, and after this mon will be gone, ppl will just start using Orthworm. I think both mons are not ban worthy: it's the move itself that is broken, not the mons. This is why i would love to see less mon bans and more bans on moves or items, bc just banning the mons will not resolve the real problem.

Another example (this is true only in some cases tho) are the paradox mons, which at least in my opinion go over the edge and start becoming ban worthy only thanks to the new item booster energy. It's basically a much better terrain seed, and it even works like a choice item with boosting moves, also it gives too much freedom of sets to too many paradox mons. It is this that makes the mons broken, not the mons in itself.
A glaring example of this is Iron Valiant, which i don't think it's broken on his own, but becomes susceptible to ban when booster energy enters the equation. This is true for a lot of paradox mons, and when these will get banned, some other paradox mon with the same booster energy will become broken too, bc it's the item itself that is broken.

Houndstone is here in the list, let's be honest, just bc of the move "last respect". It's the move that is completely broken, and it's what needs to be banned, not the mon. When Home will be active, we also won't need to ban a mon for almost no reasons. As it is, Hounstone without last respect is defo not broken.

I also want to add that the ban we need the most now is terastal bc it is completely broken, and should truly be the first thing we ban.


To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.

A final though.
This new generation is very different compared to the last one, so we should change our prospective towards bans too. Changing the way we go about bans may also promove the differentation between teams and bring more variety to the meta.
I think Revival Blessing should be on the radar as well. I’m aware it hasn’t been coded yet, but it’s meta-defining even in principle, and with Leppa Berry and two users, you can get up to four revivals per match (and in the unlikely event that Smeargle gets added in future DLC, six). I also know deep down that there’s definitely some obscure way to force an endless battle with it.
 
I think Revival Blessing should be on the radar as well. I’m aware it hasn’t been coded yet, but it’s meta-defining even in principle, and with Leppa Berry and two users, you can get up to four revivals per match. I also know deep down that there’s definitely some obscure way to force an endless battle with it.
I agree. Thanks for reminding me of that! When it's in the game, it will defo be broken. And the move it self should be banned, not the mons.
 
I agree that Revival Blessing should be looked up, but I don't think it's automatically broken.
After all, the revived Mons are revived at 50%, which, depending on the situation and the match-up, might not be enough for them to make an impact again in the match.
Furthermore, the 2 users of the Move are not the Top Meta Mons.
Pawmot is strong and definitely will see usage, but its frail too and has lots of weaknesses. Revival Blessing takes a slot too and if it's Leppa Berry, it's an opportunity cost as well, since Pawmot would rather run another item.
From Theorymon perspective, Rabska looks trash, and would almost exclusively be used for Revival Blessing, balancing somewhat the move.

Again, this is all theorymoning and I do agree this move should be looked up and probably suspected. However, it doesn't scream Quickban for me, Suspect Test looks much better to handle the situation.
 
To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
Yeah, facts I agree
 
To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
I agree that booster energy should be the first thing quick banned - would be interested in evaluating all of the paradox mons without it in the game. I say keep terastal in the game a bit longer, it is quite possibly too strong but it is a very interesting mechanic that totally changes how the game is played - give players at least a couple weeks to adapt to it. I often find a +spe booster energy flutter mane is more broken than whatever non-paradox mon I terastal.
 
Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Foul Play

Probably my favorite defensive mon in the tier right now; this thing is so bulky that it can live a STAB super effective Moonblast from a fully invested Flutter Mane. Its ability also acts as a pseudo-Defense buff by lowering the opponent's attack, essentially allowing it to live massive hits on both sides of the spectrum. There are other options in its movepool, but this is the set I've been having the best luck with.

Tera Type is Steel because, once certain threats are eliminated, it can gain pure Steel typing for defensive purposes.
 
I agree that booster energy should be the first thing quick banned - would be interested in evaluating all of the paradox mons without it in the game. I say keep terastal in the game a bit longer, it is quite possibly too strong but it is a very interesting mechanic that totally changes how the game is played - give players at least a couple weeks to adapt to it. I often find a +spe booster energy flutter mane is more broken than whatever non-paradox mon I terastal.
i honestly, think that there is not point in maintaining terastal, it's simply too broken and unpredictable at this moment, free adaptabilty boost or changing type on whim is too strong to remain in the tier. but i do agree that booster energy must go away, some other user made a really good post explaying why tera is broken.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I agree that Revival Blessing should be looked up, but I don't think it's automatically broken.
After all, the revived Mons are revived at 50%, which, depending on the situation and the match-up, might not be enough for them to make an impact again in the match.
Furthermore, the 2 users of the Move are not the Top Meta Mons.
Pawmot is strong and definitely will see usage, but its frail too and has lots of weaknesses. Revival Blessing takes a slot too and if it's Leppa Berry, it's an opportunity cost as well, since Pawmot would rather run another item.
From Theorymon perspective, Rabska looks trash, and would almost exclusively be used for Revival Blessing, balancing somewhat the move.

Again, this is all theorymoning and I do agree this move should be looked up and probably suspected. However, it doesn't scream Quickban for me, Suspect Test looks much better to handle the situation.
I think a quickban would be better because it’s already effectively banned by merit of not being coded. It’s a preventative measure, like boarding up your windows before a storm rather than resigning yourself to cleaning up the broken glass afterwards. Implementing it now would completely destabilize an already very unstable meta—you think Chien-Pao is oppressive now, wait till you can revive it after removing its few checks.
 
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I was laddering all night yesterday and got on a pretty hot win streak with my boy…….Paldean. Tauros.

Tauros-Paldea-Water @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Bulk Up
- Wave Crash
- Body Press
- Bulk Up

This guy has no problems dealing with Chien-Pao and Kingambit barring any tera cheese, but even then, you can tera to mono water and at least kill one of them back. He also can help check Palafin barring zen headbutt (if you’re not pure water) or bulk up, but that’s why you have bulk up to set up back on him. I think this guy is a beast and you guys should try it out.
 

Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.

The most glaring example here is Cyclizar. He is not the only shed tail user, Orthworm can use it too, and after this mon will be gone, ppl will just start using Orthworm. I think both mons are not ban worthy: it's the move itself that is broken, not the mons. This is why i would love to see less mon bans and more bans on moves or items, bc just banning the mons will not resolve the real problem.

Another example (this is true only in some cases tho) are the paradox mons, which at least in my opinion go over the edge and start becoming ban worthy only thanks to the new item booster energy. It's basically a much better terrain seed, and it even works like a choice item with boosting moves, also it gives too much freedom of sets to too many paradox mons. It is this that makes the mons broken, not the mons in itself.
A glaring example of this is Iron Valiant, which i don't think it's broken on his own, but becomes susceptible to ban when booster energy enters the equation. This is true for a lot of paradox mons, and when these will get banned, some other paradox mon with the same booster energy will become broken too, bc it's the item itself that is broken.

Houndstone is here in the list, let's be honest, just bc of the move "last respect". It's the move that is completely broken, and it's what needs to be banned, not the mon. When Home will be active, we also won't need to ban a mon for almost no reasons. As it is, Hounstone without last respect is defo not broken.

I also want to add that the ban we need the most now is terastal bc it is completely broken, and should truly be the first thing we ban.


To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.

A final though.
This new generation is very different compared to the last one, so we should change our prospective towards bans too. Changing the way we go about bans may also promove the differentation between teams and bring more variety to the meta.
Nobody ever said that banning moves or abilities are off the table. In fact, in my post I even strongly alluded to the options of Last Respects (as opposed to Houndstone) or Shed Tail (instead of Cyclizar). This can extend to Booster Energy or Protosynthesis, but as widespread abilities, we simply would need more convincing and longstanding evidence due to their nature.

This does not require some blatant shift in philosophy either as there is precedent for banning abilities and moves. I just want to say that it is only day one and to ban these moves or abilities, the Pokemon with them would have to prove it, so with there being so much data, naturally they fall on the radar to begin. We will likely vote on Pokemon, too, but we can always shift course later on.

I think you are setting a very unrealistic standard and expectation in saying to ban Tera already (would not even get approved if I tried) or Booster Energy before the Pokemon with it on day two. Just gotta be a bit more patient and understand the multidimensional nature of our tiering.
 
I really don't get the fuss around Tera. Every game I've used it in it's made an impact, but not nearly as much as Z-Moves did. Removing mons dual typings for another type honestly hurts it more than it helps. Very special exceptions like Fairy Poison Heal Breloom which I've had a ton of fun with, but even then, it isn't broken, just better than before. I really like the way Tera is actually shaping up, and it could make some really cool combos, and itself has saved Stall as a playstyle in my opinion.

Last Respects on the other hand is just Dracovish 2.0, and Shed Tail is so ridiculously broken it has to go.
 
I really adore Klefki right now. It does so much and makes balance teams more approachable. I run this set a lot lately:
Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Foul Play
- Play Rough

it stops or threatens out the fast offensive threats like Iron Valiant, Flutter mane etc. i might also tend to go spdef but Chien Pao is always scary to me.
Besides taking hits and spreading status, it also lays spikes for even more preasure especially if paired with lead Glimmora. I think hazard stacking can be really powerfull in this state of this meta.

It looks like a good antimeta pick. I want to know what you think about this mon.
 
Leppa berry revival seems like a gimmick. One revival blessing is reasonable to do because you can use it without it being a gimmick, but I don't see much of a way to get two off unless your opponent is really passive, and there's no guarantee doing so will actually be useful. You're best off trying to run Pawmot as a reasonably powerful mon and treating Revival Blessing as a way to put pressure on the opponent not to give you an opening, rather than fully dedicating a teamslot to it that you could just use on a full HP mon.

I also think we should wait for Revival Blessing to be put in before action is taken on Terastal -- Revival Blessing could work as a way to recover if you lose a critical Pokemon to a surprise Terastal, allowing you to redeploy it without worrying about being caught by surprise a second time.
 
Arboliva.png

Been having a tremendous amount of fun using this Harvest Arboliva set on ladder with Torkoal sun support. With the Protosynthesis users available there's a lot of Sun around, and harvest-cycling Custap Berries to get priority on every move makes up for Arboliva's abysmal speed perfectly. Fire Tera type gives Arboliva a STAB Weather Ball, which in Sun has 100BP + 50% damage bonus. With Arboliva's 125 base SpA hits like a truck. With priority from Custap it outspeeds and I believe it (nearly) OHKO's Flutter Mane depending on its set. Definitely OHKO's after Stealth Rock damage.

Tera Fire into Earth Power is a great response to enemies using Fire types to try and kill Arboliva pre-tera, especially since the sun might bait them into switching to fire types. Fire-Grass-Ground gives enough coverage to hit pretty much everything for at least full damage, and the majority of Pokemon for super effective damage.

If you want to go all in on the sun you can use Solar Beam, but having two sun-dependent moves might be a bit greedy.

Arboliva @ Custap Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Energy Ball/Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Earth Power

Espathra.png

Another fun one I've been playing around with is Setup Sweeper Espathra with Calm Mind and Speed Boost. Getting a calm mind essentially functions like Quiver Dance because of the Speed Boost bonus, and protecting the second turn triggers it again giving you enough speed to get to almost 500 even without investing in speed (which is why I invested in HP to survive the initial hit). At worst then gives you a 100BP stored power on the following turn with the SpA boost, which already does some work. If you can manage to get yourself into a position to use Calm Mind+Protect again and you're in really fun territory, allowing you another protect and get up to 3x speed and 2x SpA/SpD, giving you a Stored Power that hits for 180 Base Power. Dazzling Gleam is good coverage against ghost types, and Tera Fairy allows you to prevent Sucker Punch from messing up your plans.

Espathra @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
- Stored Power
 
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alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
I think you are setting a very unrealistic standard and expectation in saying to ban Tera already (would not even get approved if I tried) or Booster Energy before the Pokemon with it on day two. Just gotta be a bit more patient and understand the multidimensional nature of our tiering.
I actually agree with you on this one. Tera isn’t like Dynamax where it was enabling a bunch of broken nonsense and there was brief talk of banning Gyarados, Excadrill, and even Ditto based on Dmax alone. Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, etc. are broken independently of Tera and I can’t think of a single Pokémon that Tera makes broken specifically—all the Ghost-types and Flying-types that finally get real physical STAB thanks to Tera Blast also lose their valuable second typings (and they all lose to Chien-Pao anyway). It’s also turned out to be a lot less unpredictable than I presumed, weirdly.
 
I think a quickban would be better because it’s already effectively banned by merit of not being coded. Implementing it now would completely destabilize an already very unstable meta—you think Chien-Po is oppressive now, wait till you can revive it after removing its few checks.
I mean, Chien Pau from what I have been hearing looks to be likely to be banned regardless of the move.
And the main point is, how often the following combination will happen in actual matches:
1. Broken Mon dies before removing his checks. (If he doesn't, he just sweeps and Revival Blessing isn't a factor in his brokeness).
2. His checks are removed or weakened by its partners.
3. After that is done, Revival Blessing Mon savely goes in and uses the move.
4. Broken Mon comes savely back at half health and cleans.

Take into account the opponent of Broken Mon + Revival Blessing won't be just sitting, he will be trying to prevent those things to happen.

I mean, it might end up being too much, but from theory point of view it's not a brainless or uncompetitive move, it has strategy and it's balanced by the fact it has just 1 PP, only reviving 50% and having a very low (and mediocre if we look at Rabska specifically) distribution. In my opinion it has to be given a chance and not Quickbanned.

I will take advantage of this post and speak about Shed Tail too, again from Theorymoning (will be using this world a lot during next 2 weeks, lol) . In this case, the move has also 2 Users, but both of them are very different and follow different strategies:
-Cyclizar is fast and has Regenerator, he will have a lot of chances to use the move, but due to being fast, his Subs are more prone to be broken by the opponent. However, since it's fast, the Cyclizar user can select the Sub receiver before being hit, so there is a chance that the receiver is immune or resistant x4 to the incoming attack, keeping the Sub this way. This fact, coupled with more oportunities to use Shed Tail might mean that the combination of Shed Tail and Cyclizar might be broken or uncompetitive.
-Orthworm is slow and bulky, with a good Steel typing and 2 immunities (one of them due to the abilities). Being slow means that when he does use Shed Tail, the receiver will have the Sub intact, being a higher reward than the one offered by Cyclizar. However, being slow and without Regenerator means that in 95% of the matches Orthworm will be using the move just once. It might even be 0 if enough offensive pressure is applied, so Orthworm has to choose the moment to use Shed Tail very carefully, since it will only have one chance at most. I think this fact balances the Orthworm+Shed Tail combination and rewards skillfull plays and strategic long-term thinking.

For all this, my verdict (still Theorymoning here) is the following one:
It should be analyzed how broken is Shed Tail on both users. If it's only broken in one of them, it's the user (most likely Cyclizar) the one that should be banned, regardless of the benefits to the meta it could offer without the move. Only if both Cyclizar and Orthworm (who as I already mentioned play very differently one from each other) are found to be broken or uncompetitive is when the move and not the Mons is what should be banned.

Hopefully Finchinator and the rest of the council read this post and the rest of the discussion before taking reckless tiering actions.
 

Finchinator

no longer Harry’s house
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
It's literally been one day and we said we are open to every option numerous times.

I spent my entire day yesterday getting up a post being transparent as to what we have discussed and what the community has discussed. I am very glad there are people with different opinions and they are posting them, too. But going out of your way to claim we are being "reckless" when we have done nothing and just been transparent is ridiculous, Eeveeto, especially when you yourself admit you have yet to even play the tier yet.
 

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