oop- yeah, infact cetitian prob is the best benefitter of this since it gets in for free and can get extra bulk ready for a Belly Drum Sweep lmfaoYou forgot Cetitan
oop- yeah, infact cetitian prob is the best benefitter of this since it gets in for free and can get extra bulk ready for a Belly Drum Sweep lmfaoYou forgot Cetitan
Strong agreement, but It seems like this isnt a popular idea on smogon. Ive never understand why more metagames dont fork out into multiple paths. A terra ladder and a non terra ladder for OU seems very obvious as a solution. Let the player base decide which one they want to play and enjoy more in the long run. I find it quite sad that a fun and fascinating mechanic is going to be thrown in the garbage with a quickban before most people can even play with it.I have no ball in the game, but curious about the response.
Since Tera and non-Tera metagames would shape up very differently and especially considering bans, maybe running both simultaneously could be an option? It'd be a shame to miss out on how either would develop with or without Tera, both look quite interesting to me.
Of course it'd be extra work and a hassle working out how that would impact other tiers and how that should be handled.
I've had the same thoughts on say a XY/ORAS split when the latter released, for the same reasons.
Garganacl is the best Anti-Stall Mon probably top 10 in OU rnPeople are sleeping hard on Garganacl. Probably my favorite mon of the generation so far, ability plus signature move are both super strong. Feels like it will be solidly OU without being broken. Honestly the signature move is pretty broken. This is the set I've been using:
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Salt Cure
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Recover
Tera type is flexible but I like fighting for STAB body press.
Here is an example of what it can do:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1715324836
I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.![]()
coming soon to a thread near you
I think Revival Blessing should be on the radar as well. I’m aware it hasn’t been coded yet, but it’s meta-defining even in principle, and with Leppa Berry and two users, you can get up to four revivals per match (and in the unlikely event that Smeargle gets added in future DLC, six). I also know deep down that there’s definitely some obscure way to force an endless battle with it.I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.
The most glaring example here is Cyclizar. He is not the only shed tail user, Orthworm can use it too, and after this mon will be gone, ppl will just start using Orthworm. I think both mons are not ban worthy: it's the move itself that is broken, not the mons. This is why i would love to see less mon bans and more bans on moves or items, bc just banning the mons will not resolve the real problem.
Another example (this is true only in some cases tho) are the paradox mons, which at least in my opinion go over the edge and start becoming ban worthy only thanks to the new item booster energy. It's basically a much better terrain seed, and it even works like a choice item with boosting moves, also it gives too much freedom of sets to too many paradox mons. It is this that makes the mons broken, not the mons in itself.
A glaring example of this is Iron Valiant, which i don't think it's broken on his own, but becomes susceptible to ban when booster energy enters the equation. This is true for a lot of paradox mons, and when these will get banned, some other paradox mon with the same booster energy will become broken too, bc it's the item itself that is broken.
Houndstone is here in the list, let's be honest, just bc of the move "last respect". It's the move that is completely broken, and it's what needs to be banned, not the mon. When Home will be active, we also won't need to ban a mon for almost no reasons. As it is, Hounstone without last respect is defo not broken.
I also want to add that the ban we need the most now is terastal bc it is completely broken, and should truly be the first thing we ban.
To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
A final though.
This new generation is very different compared to the last one, so we should change our prospective towards bans too. Changing the way we go about bans may also promove the differentation between teams and bring more variety to the meta.
I agree. Thanks for reminding me of that! When it's in the game, it will defo be broken. And the move it self should be banned, not the mons.I think Revival Blessing should be on the radar as well. I’m aware it hasn’t been coded yet, but it’s meta-defining even in principle, and with Leppa Berry and two users, you can get up to four revivals per match. I also know deep down that there’s definitely some obscure way to force an endless battle with it.
Yeah, facts I agreeTo summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
I agree that booster energy should be the first thing quick banned - would be interested in evaluating all of the paradox mons without it in the game. I say keep terastal in the game a bit longer, it is quite possibly too strong but it is a very interesting mechanic that totally changes how the game is played - give players at least a couple weeks to adapt to it. I often find a +spe booster energy flutter mane is more broken than whatever non-paradox mon I terastal.To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
Wdym?Any utility in using Quaquaval when Palafin is still around?
I think rn not. Jet Punch is what Aqua step want to beAny utility in using Quaquaval when Palafin is still around?
i honestly, think that there is not point in maintaining terastal, it's simply too broken and unpredictable at this moment, free adaptabilty boost or changing type on whim is too strong to remain in the tier. but i do agree that booster energy must go away, some other user made a really good post explaying why tera is broken.I agree that booster energy should be the first thing quick banned - would be interested in evaluating all of the paradox mons without it in the game. I say keep terastal in the game a bit longer, it is quite possibly too strong but it is a very interesting mechanic that totally changes how the game is played - give players at least a couple weeks to adapt to it. I often find a +spe booster energy flutter mane is more broken than whatever non-paradox mon I terastal.
I think a quickban would be better because it’s already effectively banned by merit of not being coded. It’s a preventative measure, like boarding up your windows before a storm rather than resigning yourself to cleaning up the broken glass afterwards. Implementing it now would completely destabilize an already very unstable meta—you think Chien-Pao is oppressive now, wait till you can revive it after removing its few checks.I agree that Revival Blessing should be looked up, but I don't think it's automatically broken.
After all, the revived Mons are revived at 50%, which, depending on the situation and the match-up, might not be enough for them to make an impact again in the match.
Furthermore, the 2 users of the Move are not the Top Meta Mons.
Pawmot is strong and definitely will see usage, but its frail too and has lots of weaknesses. Revival Blessing takes a slot too and if it's Leppa Berry, it's an opportunity cost as well, since Pawmot would rather run another item.
From Theorymon perspective, Rabska looks trash, and would almost exclusively be used for Revival Blessing, balancing somewhat the move.
Again, this is all theorymoning and I do agree this move should be looked up and probably suspected. However, it doesn't scream Quickban for me, Suspect Test looks much better to handle the situation.
Nobody ever said that banning moves or abilities are off the table. In fact, in my post I even strongly alluded to the options of Last Respects (as opposed to Houndstone) or Shed Tail (instead of Cyclizar). This can extend to Booster Energy or Protosynthesis, but as widespread abilities, we simply would need more convincing and longstanding evidence due to their nature.I wanted to express my opinion on the mons that will get potentially banned in the future, but before i wanted to explain why (at least to me) this list of mons mostly misses the point. I want to promote a more flexible approach on bans, bc i think even if we ban these mons the meta will still probably be unbalanced.
The most glaring example here is Cyclizar. He is not the only shed tail user, Orthworm can use it too, and after this mon will be gone, ppl will just start using Orthworm. I think both mons are not ban worthy: it's the move itself that is broken, not the mons. This is why i would love to see less mon bans and more bans on moves or items, bc just banning the mons will not resolve the real problem.
Another example (this is true only in some cases tho) are the paradox mons, which at least in my opinion go over the edge and start becoming ban worthy only thanks to the new item booster energy. It's basically a much better terrain seed, and it even works like a choice item with boosting moves, also it gives too much freedom of sets to too many paradox mons. It is this that makes the mons broken, not the mons in itself.
A glaring example of this is Iron Valiant, which i don't think it's broken on his own, but becomes susceptible to ban when booster energy enters the equation. This is true for a lot of paradox mons, and when these will get banned, some other paradox mon with the same booster energy will become broken too, bc it's the item itself that is broken.
Houndstone is here in the list, let's be honest, just bc of the move "last respect". It's the move that is completely broken, and it's what needs to be banned, not the mon. When Home will be active, we also won't need to ban a mon for almost no reasons. As it is, Hounstone without last respect is defo not broken.
I also want to add that the ban we need the most now is terastal bc it is completely broken, and should truly be the first thing we ban.
To summarize, the way i would do things is this:
Quick ban: terastal, shed tail, booster energy, and last respect.
Suspect: chien-pao, palafin.
After doing these quick bans, if even after these the mons are still broken then they should be banned. I do think that roaring moon ecc might still be broken, but we should still ban booster energy before that, as that is a much bigger problem that involves more mons. After doing these bans, we can see if they are still broken and react accordigly.
A final though.
This new generation is very different compared to the last one, so we should change our prospective towards bans too. Changing the way we go about bans may also promove the differentation between teams and bring more variety to the meta.
I actually agree with you on this one. Tera isn’t like Dynamax where it was enabling a bunch of broken nonsense and there was brief talk of banning Gyarados, Excadrill, and even Ditto based on Dmax alone. Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, etc. are broken independently of Tera and I can’t think of a single Pokémon that Tera makes broken specifically—all the Ghost-types and Flying-types that finally get real physical STAB thanks to Tera Blast also lose their valuable second typings (and they all lose to Chien-Pao anyway). It’s also turned out to be a lot less unpredictable than I presumed, weirdly.I think you are setting a very unrealistic standard and expectation in saying to ban Tera already (would not even get approved if I tried) or Booster Energy before the Pokemon with it on day two. Just gotta be a bit more patient and understand the multidimensional nature of our tiering.
I mean, Chien Pau from what I have been hearing looks to be likely to be banned regardless of the move.I think a quickban would be better because it’s already effectively banned by merit of not being coded. Implementing it now would completely destabilize an already very unstable meta—you think Chien-Po is oppressive now, wait till you can revive it after removing its few checks.