Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Throwing in my opinion here as a player who has been here since the dinosaur age, but only recently active on the forum. I think tera overall is a pretty interesting mechanic.

It is less all in than Dynamax as it persists. It is also less ridiculous than Dynamax was with the automatic double bulk and moves with great secondary effects. Compared to Z moves, there is a higher level of unpredictability in that any mon could be the designated user. With Z moves, you could reasonably predict who the Z user was based on team comp and with some scouting in game. There is a bit more ambiguity with tera as many mons can viably run multiple teratypes. At least when I have been building teams, I have been doing so with the option of multiple mons being my tera candidate depending on the game or game state.

Tera certainly feels like a more balanced mechanic than Dynamax was. While it is more unpredictable than Z, I do not see this as a bad thing. It reminds me a bit of the pre-team preview age where you had to be careful before committing mons in case your opponent had a hard counter in the back.

There are currently some mons that need to be addressed before any decisions on tera can be made. While there are some mons that would probably be better in a non-tera vs the current meta, it feels like the most broken mons in the tera meta would be pretty strong without it as well.

Two other things I want to comment on:

1. Any type of complex solution that involves learning what mon has what tera type in team preview should not be implemented. We should be as cartridge accurate as possible when doing so does not significantly break the game (ie. no Acid Rain in DPP). If I am battling you on cart, I should only have the same information before the match as that scenario.

2. If Tera is an issue, I am not sure Terablast is a problem. It is not a move that I run into that often. While there are some cases where it provides some nice additional coverage (Fire Zone, Fighting Gengar) etc, the move does not seem to be as gamebreaking as some suggest. I am not sure banning just tera blast is a solution.
 
I don't think this is true. The scariest thing about Tera is all the bonus multipliers some pokemon can apply to priority now. This favors same type Tera. Breloom, Scizor, Talonflame, Chien-Pao, and several Aqua Jet pokemon are examples of this. But even if you just wanted to go with some fast, hyper offensive set without priority spam, Dragapult and Palafin are hardly the only pokemon that can do this.



You can still switch in and out of battle and keep the bonuses. The surprise factor may be gone, but not the functionality. I'm not trying to take you out of context with your point on Roaring Moon, but I just want to point out how that big a deal that is in general.

Z moves were a one turn limit. You used it once and that was it. Dynamax was a 3 turn limit. You activated it once and that was it. And while they limited the ways you could forcibly phase it out, if you did switch out with a Dynamax pokemon, it didn't just come back for the rest of the match in OP giant form. When you terrastallize, you change that way for the rest of the battle. There is no limits on turns or switching out.
Z-crystals were boring. Rather have a format with tera. Dynamax was obv no fun. If tera is fun, keep it fun. Gen 8 was stale. Gen 9 has flavor. Tera should stay imo.
 
Z-crystals were boring. Rather have a format with tera. Dynamax was obv no fun. If tera is fun, keep it fun. Gen 8 was stale. Gen 9 has flavor. Tera should stay imo.
Something being "fun" and having "flavor" means literally nothing when it isn't balanced and has obviously created a schism in the community. Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the general consensus on Gen 8's meta that it was one of the better OU metas we've had for a while once it settled down?
 
Ban Tera omg

It just allows so many things to get away with poor matchups and turn the games into their favor in just one click - very reminiscent of Dynamax, albeit in a different, less on-the-nose kind of way. Tera creates and encourages a a metagame with so many unknowns, one where basically every Pokemon has the ability to lure you, and this forces you to center your decisions around avoiding any "misplay" caused by a surprise Terastalizing instead of making skillful plays based on knowledge of the field that is being presented to you. It turns every matchup into some sort of guessing game where, in the back of each player's head, they know there's something in the opponent's team that could ruin their otherwise amazing game plan. The rewards of a free setup turn because of a surprise resist can be HUGE, and while you could argue that it still takes skill to pull off a successful Tera sweep, the risk-reward ratio almost always skewed to the person with the better Tera matchup regardless of whether or not he/she is playing the game more skillfully.

I don't know how much of my opinion was formed by losing to Tera Electric/Steel Scizor or Tera Flying/Dark/Steel/Fairy Roaring Moon too many times, but I don't think that Tera as a whole is a fun nor a healthy way to play the game.
 
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Ban Tera omg

It just allows so many things to get away with poor matchups and turn the games into their favor in just one click - very reminiscent of Dynamax, albeit in a different, less on-the-nose kind of way. Tera creates and encourages a a metagame with so many unknowns, and where basically every Pokemon has the ability to lure you, and this forces you to center your decisions around avoiding any "misplay" caused by a surprise Terastilizing instead of making skillful plays based on knowledge of the field that is being presented to you. It turns every matchup into some sort of guessing game where, in the back of each player's head, they know there's something in the opponent's team that could ruin their otherwise amazing game plan. The rewards of a free setup turn because of a surprise resist can be HUGE, and while you could argue that it still takes skill to pull off a successful Tera sweep, the risk-reward ratio almost always skewed to the person with the better Tera matchup regardless of whether or not he/she is playing the game more skillfully.

I don't know how much of my opinion was formed by losing to Tera Electric/Steel Scizor or Tera Flying/Dark/Steel/Fairy Roaring Moon too many times, but I don't think that Tera as a whole is a fun nor a healthy way to play the game.
Z-crystals was unknown =\
 
1. Any type of complex solution that involves learning what mon has what tera type in team preview should not be implemented. We should be as cartridge accurate as possible when doing so does not significantly break the game (ie. no Acid Rain in DPP). If I am battling you on cart, I should only have the same information before the match as that scenario.
How is sharing your Tera types not cartridge accurate? As mentioned before, team sheets have been things in tournaments since forever, and this is a similar compromise. Obeying that rule is as cartridge accurate as both players agreeing not to use Baton Pass, not to bring Zacian, Species Clause, etc. It's also comparable to HP% information sharing, which Showdown already does automatically, while on cartridge you would require your opponent to make the calc for you and tell you that info, lol.

Completely agree with your take regarding balance, though. The mechanic feels fresh and balanced as of now, and there are more pressing matters to be assessed first.
 
Something being "fun" and having "flavor" means literally nothing when it isn't balanced and has obviously created a schism in the community. Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the general consensus on Gen 8's meta that it was one of the better OU metas we've had for a while once it settled down?
Gen 8 was meh. Mega evolutions was best format imo
 
Z-crystals was unknown =\
Z-Crystals were unknown but they would largely be on moves that had STAB or coverage that was already expected. On top of that, they take up an item slot. Acting like Z-Moves are anywhere near as bad as Tera is disingenuous at best. I get that Tera is a fun mechanic and you're obviously very passionate about how much you enjoy it, but we can't just keep things that are detrimental to the meta on the basis of them being fun, that's what AG is for.
 
Z-crystals was unknown =\
Yes, but 1) you have to dedicate an entire team and item slot for a Z-move user whilst everyone can Tera and 2) Z crystals were only an offensive option, Terastalizing can be used defensively and offensively and the STAB boosts lasts the entire game. The benefits of a successful Tera is far, far greater as Tera is far more flexible, unpredictable, and powerful than Z moves were.
 

TheRealBigC

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Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception
- Future Sight

Tera Water Slowking is an amazing BO mon right now is probably one of the only mons that can make the playstyle viable. Tera Water lets you remove your psychic typing, allowing you to check Gholdengo, Chi Yu, Dragapult and others while pivoting around Iron Bundle (Timid Freeze Dry does 45 or so, so you can chilly water out or go hard into your scarf resist). FS + Chilly Reception gives you the Gen 8 FuturePort combo, allowing to break stall and otherwise probelmatic cores.
I really don't think Slowking is it right now considering it's a special tank that gets destroyed by one of the most common sets of the tier's premier special attacker:

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 224-266 (56.8 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course it checks Timid Booster Energy variants, but if you're just switching into a non-Booster Energy variant you're not going to know if it's Specs until it's too late. Any Tera Ice variant wrecks you as well. If you're going to use your Tera on Slowking I think you're better off going for Steel and dropping Surf for Thunder Wave to ruin sweepers. That being said I don't think Slowking achieves that much in general rn considering the amount of mons floating around who absolutely destroy it, although I haven't tried it with Tera admittedly
 
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Z-crystals were boring. Rather have a format with tera. Dynamax was obv no fun. If tera is fun, keep it fun. Gen 8 was stale. Gen 9 has flavor. Tera should stay imo.
This claim of what is and isn't fun is entirely subjective. I personally happened to favor Z crystals the most out of all the generational gimmicks. I also like Dynamax even though I felt it was very dumb. But none of this is really relevant to the issue of balance.

And for the record, I'm not in favor of rushing to ban it. I would love if there was a way to not have to. Objectively speaking, though, it's clearly the most broken mechanic yet and it's not close. If they can ban Dynamax for being OP, they can and should ban Terastallizing for being even more OP.
 
How is sharing your Tera types not cartridge accurate? As mentioned before, team sheets have been things in tournaments since forever, and this is a similar compromise. Obeying that rule is as cartridge accurate as both players agreeing not to use Baton Pass, not to bring Zacian, Species Clause, etc. It's also comparable to HP% information sharing, which Showdown already does automatically, while on cartridge you would require your opponent to make the calc for you and tell you that info, lol.

Completely agree with your take regarding balance, though. The mechanic feels fresh and balanced as of now, and there are more pressing matters to be assessed first.
Hmm, that is a good point. I am thinking of matching up with someone on ladder to be the 6v6 singles equivalent of VGC ladder. If there is information not present in that team battle screen, I don't think it should be present in our team preview either. This is why for example, you can't tell which Urshifu or Silvally form you are playing into based on team preview. It depends on what you think we are simulating I guess, without getting too existential about it.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Terastalyzation only happens after you lock in a move, so you cannot switch on the same turn that you terastalyze if that's what you meant
Honestly, now that im thinking about it, you can potentially create a scenario where mag will tera to burn your ass into ashes, so now have to decide "is my steel type (in the current position of the match) worth enough to tera and save it from mag? or should i just sack it" this would mean that you could save the steell mon and maybe even checking another mon, but then you get into the connundrom of wasting your (1) tera into fucking magnezone

meanwhile :Gholdengo: be like: Oh boy a cool and interesting mindgame beetween 2 players of high iq? nah man, coudnt be me lmao
 
I really don't think Slowking is it right now considering it's a special tank that gets destroyed by one of the most common sets of the tier's premier special attacker:

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 224-266 (56.8 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course it checks Timid Booster Energy variants, but if you're just switching into a non-Booster Energy variant you're not going to know if it's Specs until it's too late. Any Tera Ice variant wrecks you as well. If you're going to use your Tera on Slowking I think you're better off going for Steel and dropping Surf for Thunder Wave to ruin sweepers. That being said I don't think Slowking achieves that much in general rn considering the amount of mons floating around who absolutely destroy it, although I haven't tried it with Tera admittedly
If it's specs bundle it's a lot easier to deal with in general because you regen off that 60% and go into an ice resist, also specs bundle is taking rocks damage. Heavy Duty Boots is the biggest menace because from full health it's so hard to kill. Tera Ice is a huge threat for sure, but there's a reason why it's probably days away from getting banned. Water Slowking still is able to handle all the other threats I listed.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
We should be as cartridge accurate as possible when doing so does not significantly break the game (ie. no Acid Rain in DPP). If I am battling you on cart, I should only have the same information before the match as that scenario.
I don’t really think this argument holds water. If we were “as cartridge accurate as possible”, we wouldn’t have a cancel button or HP shown in percentages. We wouldn’t be able to see our own stats, boosts, volatile status conditions, or what hazards are on the field without going into separate menus. We wouldn’t be able to see the opponent’s Speed range. Battles would last 15 minutes at minimum and there would be a 20-minute timer. You should be celebrating that Showdown isn’t cartridge-accurate, especially since Scarlet and Violet run like a Shuckle holding an Iron Ball.
 
Something being "fun" and having "flavor" means literally nothing when it isn't balanced and has obviously created a schism in the community. Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the general consensus on Gen 8's meta that it was one of the better OU metas we've had for a while once it settled down?
The general consensus was that Gen 8 OU was the worst meta since probably ADV. Boots, regenerator, knock off and scald spam. The entire meta in a nutshell.
 

TheRealBigC

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If it's specs bundle it's a lot easier to deal with in general because you regen off that 60% and go into an ice resist, also specs bundle is taking rocks damage. Heavy Duty Boots is the biggest menace because from full health it's so hard to kill. Tera Ice is a huge threat for sure, but there's a reason why it's probably days away from getting banned. Water Slowking still is able to handle all the other threats I listed.
The only good Freeze Dry resists in the tier are Gholdengo, Kingambit and maybe Orthworm (Chien-Pao and Ceititan count too but they don't exactly want to eat a Specs Iron Bundle Freeze Dry). Bulky stuff like AV Iron Hands and Blissey check Specs Bundle too but they're rare in my experience. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Specs Iron Bundle is somehow easier to deal with because if you don't have an answer to it you basically have to sack something every time it gets in
 
The general consensus was that Gen 8 OU was the worst meta since probably ADV. Boots, regenerator, knock off and scald spam. The entire meta in a nutshell.
Scald spam is probably the only part of the Gen 8 OU meta I actually remember disliking (thank god it got limited distribution this gen) so I guess I might be in the minority. Outside of early gens the only meta I'd call actually unfun is Gen 5 OU tbh lmao
 
Something being "fun" and having "flavor" means literally nothing when it isn't balanced and has obviously created a schism in the community. Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the general consensus on Gen 8's meta that it was one of the better OU metas we've had for a while once it settled down?
Gen 8 was a well balanced OU all in all, but despite that I still think it was by far the worst modern OU. This is because it was simply horrifically boring for extremely long stretches of time. I am absolutely not alone in this take. Yes balance comes first, but there really does need to be a happy medium and I’m pretty sure the council does realize this now.

What was the solution to fix gen 8 OU though? No goddamn clue but thankfully that’s not my job, but I do hope smogon strikes that balance this time around.
 

TheRealBigC

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Moving away from the endless Tera debate for a minute, what do people think of Iron Treads? I see a lot of hype over Great Tusk and rightfully so, but I feel people are overlooking its counterpart somewhat. I think Tusk is better in a vacuum but Treads can do stuff that Tusk can't like blocking Glimmora leads and beating Clodsire, Gholdengo, the occasional Hatterene and potentially Chien-Pao depending on the sets. Because of that, I find I'm using Treads a lot more than Tusk because it fits on teams easier. Treads obviously does have the massive disadvantage of being beaten by Tusk, but I'm curious as to other people's thoughts on it.
 
The hazard situation is disgusting right now. No defogger can deal with Gholdengo reliably and its sooooooo easy to get up a few layers now. Like 4/6 of your team has to be on HDB or you just get ran over.

gonna lead to a pretty homogenized meta imo
Talonflame can do it. There are also some other niche Defog options that may be possible, but I don't want to speculate on stuff that is so fringe right now. The real issue there is that Defog has a lot less distribution now. On the other hand, there are a lot more spinners. Great Tusk and Iron Treads beat Gholdengo. Torkoal is another option. You can absolutely find hazard clear on your team that can deal with Gholdengo.
 
Currently 19th on the ladder. Here are some thoughts:

:sv/annihilape:
Really good and imo underutilized. I'm using a physically defensive rocks set with Punching Glove and my favorite thing about it is that it can deny spin pretty well on Tusks and Treads. Paired with Gholdengo, while sharing a Ghost weakness, it becomes very difficult to remove hazards.

:sv/scizor:
This thing getting Close Combat was an absolute godsend. It's pretty spammable a lot of the time. A lot of offensive threats in this meta like to Terastallize to avoid being taken out by Bullet Punch, but this is often kind of telegraphed and you can sometimes force them to waste it, or occasionally you can bait the tera-steel and kill them with CC. I'm running Thief so I can actually touch Gholdengo. BU Palafin can just set up on you though so it's kind of a problem.

:sv/ting-lu:
Absolutely the backbone of my team. Having a pocket Tera-poison makes it next to unbreakable. Spike up and block spin and fog with your teammates. Actually checks the Fire fish, Dragapult, and so many other nearly uncheckable threats. It's been absolutely irreplaceable on my squad. Run Whirlwind.

Last thing, please do not laugh at me:

:sv/hawlucha:
I like using dumb shit so I have been using Mold Breaker Hawlucha with Defog and Swords Dance on my team. It fogs on Gholdengo and SDs on Unaware mons. Probably don't use this lol
 
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1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Gen 8 was a well balanced OU all in all, but despite that I still think it was by far the worst modern OU. This is because it was simply horrifically boring for extremely long stretches of time. I am absolutely not alone in this take. Yes balance comes first, but there really does need to be a happy medium and I’m pretty sure the council does realize this now.

What was the solution to fix gen 8 OU though? No goddamn clue but thankfully that’s not my job, but I do hope smogon strikes that balance this time around.
I honestly though balance was good and overall was healthy in gen 8, i wasnt there by gen 6 but seems healthy (at least i think idk), and gen 5 was so bad there are still trying to fix it to this day, gen 7 was so bad the last post in the official thread was a fucking dumpster fire, and even tho yeah, theres this stigma that "smogon only likes stall" is kinda hard to balance when gamefreak is one of the most incompetent companys in the history

but gohldengo hazard stack is gonna be prominent untill Heatran comes back, or a better gameplan to bait goldiboy comes along, so yeah
 
I have used Palafin on every team in the last two days, and I have faced Palafin in almost every game in the last two days. Get this shit outta here, there's too much variance between sets that completely blow away certain counters. Bulk Up shits on everything, Taunt shits on everything else, I've even seem some crazy people running Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, and even Grass Tera Blast to beat specific counters. It's just too powerful and too malleable for said power.
 
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