I also forgot the mention that I think Urshifu-RS, which I DO think is broken, should be freed from Ubers with a suspect test.On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
8, Mons is fun
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
7 (but it's a light 7.5), Not convinced that Zama-H isn't broken but I guess people disagree and nothing else is obviously broken like Bundle or Leki for example, whatever is left is suspect test worthy at best.
Do you feel any tiering action at all (ban or restriction) is needed on the topic of Terastallization?
Yes - I'm not convinced it actually is broken but I voted yes to this as it needs suspect testing if only because of how much crying there is constantly. It'd be nice to have the thread not polluted with Tera talk 247.
Do you feel any tiering action at all is warranted on the item Quick Claw?
No, it's a stupid gimmick that's worse than TR, Delibird Heart's team is more of an example of how strong screens are and how many good bulky breakers we have as apposed to this item being bullshit, will fade away soon once the hype fades.
Do you feel that a retest of Volcarona is warranted in the current metagame?
5, But let's not even bother with a suspect test and just reverse the QB, it wasn't broken and the vote to ban it was a mistake imo.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Kingambit?
3, Makes end games scary for sure but there are so many good physically bulky mons keeping it in check that often all the terrifying reverse sweeps occur due to the opponent playing poorly and losing or letting their physical mons gets chipped down too much.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Garganacl?
4, This shit makes progress way too easily and gets too many free turns thanks to SC to Curse or ID up becoming an un-killable monster that sweeps super easily.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Iron Valiant?
3, lots of scary sets makes it hard to scout and scouting it is usually the only turn it needs against you to be set up and GG, bringing back the moth balances out this mon a fair bit.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Sneasler?
I want to say I voted 2 for this but I can't remember now, it's a 2 or a 3. I find the crying about Dire Claw to be a bit silly as Dire Claw is NOT what makes this mon potentially broken, poison is a crap offensive type and Sneasler rarely wants to click it let alone it being a spam able move, the truly scary set is unburden acro CC SD coverage.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Baxcalibur?
1, Scary breaker for sure but this isn't even half as broken as what's already come before in this survey, or things not even on the survey like Ursaluna, Pult and Enamorus.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Samurott-Hisui?
1, lol why is this here?
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?
Mentioned Pult, Ursaluna and forgot to mention Enamorus. Ursa as it really cripples Stall/Balance and we banned Ape for similar things so why not this? (FREE THE APE!). Pult and Enamorus are the same story as Valiant with all the scary threats but scouting is less painful against these 2 than Valiant imo.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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if you’re willing to give up an item slot for quick claw I say go for it. It is dumb RNG that might give you an “unfair” advantage over something reliable but we’re never gonna ban stuff like Zap Cannon, Scope Lens, or Fire Blast because much like Quick Claw, there’s drawbacks. If that 20% chance of moving first is too random than honestly this may not be the game series for you. Sometimes the RNG wants you dead and that’s that.
Sneasler is in consideration for a ban. Also, +1 Speed easily outspeeds and K.O’s Sneasler (unless you’re running scarf)
What you saying bro
Kingambit may not be too broken, but its play style is the opposite of fun. At least the sinful RNG can be fun, when countered or when used successfully. This can’t be said for Kingambit, the shitMon Tera abuser.
luckie
unluckiest player
Quick Claw
If there was an abstain or no opinion, I would probably vote that, but from what I've seen, while "fun" to use and very much a spectacle to watch, is inherently uncompetitive.
Terastallization (Preview or Ban)
I wouldn't be opposed to either, but I think something absolutely must be done about terastallization. Being completely honest, I have zero preference, partly because I'll play regardless of the outcome of it being preview or banned (which I'm somewhat confident preview will garner a lot more support), but I do think people are too dismissive about it being gone because of preconceived notions they have about a gimmickless meta. Again, Preview is something I really wouldn't mind, and am 50/50 on voting for in the eventual suspect, but if it got banned, saying "it would be Gen 8 again snooze" is kinda wild to me.
(2)
The dreaded MU Moth. While it's presence brought a very nice defensive niche to the tier, I don't think it's very healthy though, solely because of Tera and it being so wildly unpredictable. It being hard to predict isn't something that makes it banworthy, but Tera accentuates that strength in versatility tenfold with potentially very little drawback, depending on your team and the opposing, hence the moniker MU Moth. I wouldn't be against a suspect test, but I would definitely try to get votes to keep it banned, assuming it gets tested before Tera, which I don't think should happen.
(3)
Another volatile user of Tera. I wouldn't mind a suspect test, but I definitely think Tera should be looked at before this.
(3)
Being completely honest, I don't like this thing. I will say, I'm not sure whether it's due to a skill issue or if it's completely broken under circumstances, but I would definitely welcome a suspect test. However, same deal as Gambit and Volcarona, which Tera should be looked at before this creature.
(1)
I really like Iron Valiant, and I think it's a very welcome addition to the tier. Great user of Tera imo. Enchances what it does but not to an obscenely obnoxious degree. Has many really good sets and some are better than others, but you're realistically going to have a check to it somewhere on a well constructed team because each set loses out on something crucial. Healthy addition to the tier.
(2)
I really do not like Dire Claw. At all. I don't think Sneasler is necessarily unhealthy or should be prioritized over anything above at all though, bar Iron Valiant if everything gets checked off. Unburden is dangerous as hell though, and admittedly fun, I just have a personal grudge against Dire Claw as a move.
If there was an abstain or no opinion, I would probably vote that, but from what I've seen, while "fun" to use and very much a spectacle to watch, is inherently uncompetitive.
Terastallization (Preview or Ban)
I wouldn't be opposed to either, but I think something absolutely must be done about terastallization. Being completely honest, I have zero preference, partly because I'll play regardless of the outcome of it being preview or banned (which I'm somewhat confident preview will garner a lot more support), but I do think people are too dismissive about it being gone because of preconceived notions they have about a gimmickless meta. Again, Preview is something I really wouldn't mind, and am 50/50 on voting for in the eventual suspect, but if it got banned, saying "it would be Gen 8 again snooze" is kinda wild to me.
(2)The dreaded MU Moth. While it's presence brought a very nice defensive niche to the tier, I don't think it's very healthy though, solely because of Tera and it being so wildly unpredictable. It being hard to predict isn't something that makes it banworthy, but Tera accentuates that strength in versatility tenfold with potentially very little drawback, depending on your team and the opposing, hence the moniker MU Moth. I wouldn't be against a suspect test, but I would definitely try to get votes to keep it banned, assuming it gets tested before Tera, which I don't think should happen.
(3)Another volatile user of Tera. I wouldn't mind a suspect test, but I definitely think Tera should be looked at before this.
(3)Being completely honest, I don't like this thing. I will say, I'm not sure whether it's due to a skill issue or if it's completely broken under circumstances, but I would definitely welcome a suspect test. However, same deal as Gambit and Volcarona, which Tera should be looked at before this creature.
(1)I really like Iron Valiant, and I think it's a very welcome addition to the tier. Great user of Tera imo. Enchances what it does but not to an obscenely obnoxious degree. Has many really good sets and some are better than others, but you're realistically going to have a check to it somewhere on a well constructed team because each set loses out on something crucial. Healthy addition to the tier.
(2)I really do not like Dire Claw. At all. I don't think Sneasler is necessarily unhealthy or should be prioritized over anything above at all though, bar Iron Valiant if everything gets checked off. Unburden is dangerous as hell though, and admittedly fun, I just have a personal grudge against Dire Claw as a move.
Kingambit I think is getting the short end of the stick right now is it really good mon absolutely and it abuses offensive Teras as well as defensive Teras very well. People bring up the point that it’s main reason it would get a ban is the inability to assume Tera and it getting a free SD up which is a solid point BUT:
I think it doesn’t even need Tera end game with Supreme Overlord on 5 mons dead. Just put Air Balloon and you’re threatening a lot of sweepers and setting up in their face with Sucker Punch sweeps.
I might be in the minority but I would probably vote no ban if suspect testing came about before tera redux. I would especially vote no ban if somehow we get a Volc retest before we decide on Gambit. I think Kingambit is extremely healthy in the meta game to be quite honest there’s a lot of easy checks and counters (excluding Tera blast bullshit).
I can elaborate more but I’m on my phone.
I think it doesn’t even need Tera end game with Supreme Overlord on 5 mons dead. Just put Air Balloon and you’re threatening a lot of sweepers and setting up in their face with Sucker Punch sweeps.
I might be in the minority but I would probably vote no ban if suspect testing came about before tera redux. I would especially vote no ban if somehow we get a Volc retest before we decide on Gambit. I think Kingambit is extremely healthy in the meta game to be quite honest there’s a lot of easy checks and counters (excluding Tera blast bullshit).
I can elaborate more but I’m on my phone.
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Personal casual opinion
Meta enjoyment: 7 - There is only one 10/10 metagame and thats dpp lc.
Balanced meta: 7 - Couple centralizing things but meta is okay despite crying by others.
Tera - I just put no. Not that I actually care if Tera goes or the insanely toxic discourse that comes with saying the T word. I would only like the idea of banning tera so we can stop justifying non broken mons like Volcarona being banned. Brings Regeleki back as a spinner.
Quick Claw - Its a trend sure, but it should be banned because if we’re banning things because it may affect a tour like Volc was banned for wcop, we should be banning it so it doesnt plague OLT.
Volc - 5 for retest shouldn’t have been banned, borderline at best. Tier needs real fairy resists that isnt Gholdengo.
Kingambit- I put 3 even if Kingambit imo is the best mon practically in the tier. I think banning it and or Gholdengo would make this format sort of fall apart and become an awful shitshow, which I believed in pre-home but even more so now. Kingambit is also a Tera issue if thats even an issue in the first place.
Gargaclown- 4, Salt Cure is lame even if I feel like people just need to go back to preparing for it more. Unlike Gambit I think banning this mon would benefit the format.
Valiant - I put 2, very strong mon but not broken
Sneasler - 1
Bax- 1 I wouldve gave this a 0 if I could because outside a minority this has to be a troll.
SamuH - 1, perfectly fine only the Ban Spikes crowd hates this mon.
I didnt put anything additional need to be looked at right now granted my opinion can change next week. Think the council is doing a good job even if a majority feels at times otherwise.
Meta enjoyment: 7 - There is only one 10/10 metagame and thats dpp lc.
Balanced meta: 7 - Couple centralizing things but meta is okay despite crying by others.
Tera - I just put no. Not that I actually care if Tera goes or the insanely toxic discourse that comes with saying the T word. I would only like the idea of banning tera so we can stop justifying non broken mons like Volcarona being banned. Brings Regeleki back as a spinner.
Quick Claw - Its a trend sure, but it should be banned because if we’re banning things because it may affect a tour like Volc was banned for wcop, we should be banning it so it doesnt plague OLT.
Volc - 5 for retest shouldn’t have been banned, borderline at best. Tier needs real fairy resists that isnt Gholdengo.
Kingambit- I put 3 even if Kingambit imo is the best mon practically in the tier. I think banning it and or Gholdengo would make this format sort of fall apart and become an awful shitshow, which I believed in pre-home but even more so now. Kingambit is also a Tera issue if thats even an issue in the first place.
Gargaclown- 4, Salt Cure is lame even if I feel like people just need to go back to preparing for it more. Unlike Gambit I think banning this mon would benefit the format.
Valiant - I put 2, very strong mon but not broken
Sneasler - 1
Bax- 1 I wouldve gave this a 0 if I could because outside a minority this has to be a troll.
SamuH - 1, perfectly fine only the Ban Spikes crowd hates this mon.
I didnt put anything additional need to be looked at right now granted my opinion can change next week. Think the council is doing a good job even if a majority feels at times otherwise.
Tera: No - this mechanic is balanced and is the only thing that makes me even remotely want to play this gen
Quick Claw: No - bad gimmick is bad. just use goodstuff instead.
Volcarona: 1 - don't care either way really but don't see a huge amount of point retesting it + don't really see it getting unbanned if we do
Kingambit: 1 - balanced
Gargancl: 1 - blatantly balanced; storm in a teacup lol
Sneasler: 2 - balanced but Dire Claw is weird; don't even care about Dire Claw much other than for its weird interaction with the current sleep clause implementation
Iron Valliant: 1 - balanced
Baxcalibur: 1 - im not fully convinced ppl who take issue with this mon are real
Samurott-H: 1 - let hazards rock
Quick Claw: No - bad gimmick is bad. just use goodstuff instead.
Volcarona: 1 - don't care either way really but don't see a huge amount of point retesting it + don't really see it getting unbanned if we do
Kingambit: 1 - balanced
Gargancl: 1 - blatantly balanced; storm in a teacup lol
Sneasler: 2 - balanced but Dire Claw is weird; don't even care about Dire Claw much other than for its weird interaction with the current sleep clause implementation
Iron Valliant: 1 - balanced
Baxcalibur: 1 - im not fully convinced ppl who take issue with this mon are real
Samurott-H: 1 - let hazards rock
Okay so uh
Enjoy: 7, it's all fun
Comp: 7 is decent
Tera: No action, yes that's right, no action, no ban, when the inevitable second test comes, I'm just gonna do some blog posting and be done
No, it's just cheese Hollywood meme of the week bullshit, it will die
5, retest it baby, I feel like it has become somewhat harder to built with this not around, due to the special attackers
3, its a necessary evil that checks the ghosts in the tier for offensive teams, while not being weak to dragon, fairy, water, grass, bug, and stuff, but man, this thing is scary
100, I think I have talked about this one a lot, but on the plus side, I'm glad it only took a 70% wcop win rate to figure that one out
1, Bro just use 
, or better yet, just attack the valiant, bitch dies in 2 hits of anything not named dark, don't let it scare you, besides, most of the time it's switching in on an emergency moment, gets forced out, and then the whole thing is neutralized against offense
2, your opinion on sneasler depends on your overall luck, but at the end of the day, its luck, and zapdos is a thing, good thing that people haven't adapted with rock slide yet, oh man imagine if this new tech got out
2, I'm not sure if it is truly broken but holy shit this thing hits like your parents divorcing on your birthday. Wcup has started to show some new variants with sub, but as far as I have watched, they don't do that much, but I can see that being a problem
2, one-trick pony, its a Ponzi scheme trick tho
Anything else?
you guys underrate how this guy preserves the hazards, if this thing was banned, Corviknight would be decent, because no, Corviknight It's not only a shit deffoger, it's a shit mon in general, so with that out of the way, Corv can sit on samu forever, tusk doesn't like samu but at least can tank a straight hit and do a test of whose dick is bigger, Ghold is not broken by itself, but its ability has done too much damage to the meta
Any opponent wanna see in Fight nights? Somebody who has the right mind for this business and does meme teams that makes everyone wild
Enjoy: 7, it's all fun
Comp: 7 is decent
Tera: No action, yes that's right, no action, no ban, when the inevitable second test comes, I'm just gonna do some blog posting and be done
No, it's just cheese Hollywood meme of the week bullshit, it will die 5, retest it baby, I feel like it has become somewhat harder to built with this not around, due to the special attackers 3, its a necessary evil that checks the ghosts in the tier for offensive teams, while not being weak to dragon, fairy, water, grass, bug, and stuff, but man, this thing is scary 100, I think I have talked about this one a lot, but on the plus side, I'm glad it only took a 70% wcop win rate to figure that one out 1, Bro just use , or better yet, just attack the valiant, bitch dies in 2 hits of anything not named dark, don't let it scare you, besides, most of the time it's switching in on an emergency moment, gets forced out, and then the whole thing is neutralized against offense 2, your opinion on sneasler depends on your overall luck, but at the end of the day, its luck, and zapdos is a thing, good thing that people haven't adapted with rock slide yet, oh man imagine if this new tech got out 2, I'm not sure if it is truly broken but holy shit this thing hits like your parents divorcing on your birthday. Wcup has started to show some new variants with sub, but as far as I have watched, they don't do that much, but I can see that being a problem 2, one-trick pony, its a Ponzi scheme trick thoAnything else?
you guys underrate how this guy preserves the hazards, if this thing was banned, Corviknight would be decent, because no, Corviknight It's not only a shit deffoger, it's a shit mon in general, so with that out of the way, Corv can sit on samu forever, tusk doesn't like samu but at least can tank a straight hit and do a test of whose dick is bigger, Ghold is not broken by itself, but its ability has done too much damage to the metaAny opponent wanna see in Fight nights? Somebody who has the right mind for this business and does meme teams that makes everyone wild
Fun - (8)
Honestly this is a fun metagame and leagues better than Pre-Home due to the new options we have.
Balanced - (4)
However it is not a balanced one. There are a few outliers, which I will get to soon.
Tera - (4)
This mechanic perfectly describes my feelings towards the metagame. Its fun but it needs to be restricted/banned if we strive for a balanced SV OU meta. It makes Pokemon like Volc, Espa, and Eleki utterly ridiculous for competitive play, and skews games in unnatural ways. I love the mindgames, but I can’t say its an indicator that the mechanic is healthy.
- (4)
I have mixed feelings about Gambit. On one hand it puts a strain on teambuilding, and mows through its would be checks with Tera or Balloon. On the other hand it is a keystone mon to scave off Ghosts and offense while being an amazing poke itself. Despite voting 4, I would rather see Tera suspected first before honing in on the chess piece.
BAX - (2)
Might be a little sus with Tera but I think the meta has adapted well to Iced asf Zilla. Zama, Ghold, and Gambit are good checks to it and without Boots it has the obvious SR weakness.
- (3)
Suspect Tera first and then we’ll talk.
- (2)
SV OU is much better equipped to handle Garg now. Home brought us a Regen pivot not weak to Salt Cure in Glowking who can bring in offensive threats safely vs Garg so they don’t have to eat chip from Salt Cure. We also have more offensive powerhouses like Sneasler, Enamorus, Lando, Tran, etc. Obviously it can Tera to make their lives worse but there is still a price to pay. Tera Water has the opportunity cost of losing to Zapdos. Tera Fairy still leaves it vulnerable to Sneasler.
There are also ways of luring Garg such as Tbolt Covert Cloak Ghold, Tera Grass G-Knot Torn, and ofc Substitute. Using its WCOP winrate is a justifiable argument, but I believe it is cause Garg was slept on a bit until now due to New Toy Syndrome, players are only now starting to prep for it again. Garg is an amazing poke who’s presence is reminiscent of Gen 7-8 Pex.
- (3)
SD Balloon is ridiculous. Add in the RNG with Dire Claw and Tera Ground or Ghost, you’ve got a pain in the ass. Though I wouldn’t call it banworthy atm. It gets outsped by Torn who can threaten it or Zapdos which can Static it or kill with Hurricane. Tusk can still check it if it isn’t carrying Acro, and if it does have Acro then Ghold checks it just nicely. I think its just another case of Tera pushing certain Pokes over the edge like with Volc and Gambit.
- (2)
Valiant is a mon that seems broken on paper with a whole stack of coverage options and utility moves, but suffers from 4MSS. It wants CC, Moonblast, CM, Tbolt, Knock Off, Sball, Encore, SD, Destiny Bond, Spirit Break, Aura Sphere, and all these other moves but it just can’t fit them. If anything, Valiant is better for the metagame. Threatens opposing offense while also having the potential to lure would-be checks for its teammates. Its strong, and customizable, I am glad is on a mon that looks as badass as Valiant.
- (1)
I seriously doubt there is a person out there who legit wants this boi banned.
- (1)
Honestly I got no opinion on this. I see it as a meme. A viable meme, but a meme nonetheless.
Honestly my only problems with the meta rn are Gambit and Tera, with the former only being a problem because of the latter.
Enamorus is a strong breaker but not overbearing like I thought. Its SR weaknesses means its non HDB sets are high maintenance.
Ursaluna is overrated asf. It was hyped up a shitton when Home came out, close to a month later and Ursa is showing alot of weaknesses. Like Conk, its held back by its speed and Flame Orb wearing ot down, limiting the amount of teams it can fit on besides TR or Screens. Its STABs both have immunities meaning more mindgames for cocaine bear, and Ursa is not a mon that can afford too many misplays. A high risk high reward Poke.
Honestly this is a fun metagame and leagues better than Pre-Home due to the new options we have.
Balanced - (4)
However it is not a balanced one. There are a few outliers, which I will get to soon.
Tera - (4)
This mechanic perfectly describes my feelings towards the metagame. Its fun but it needs to be restricted/banned if we strive for a balanced SV OU meta. It makes Pokemon like Volc, Espa, and Eleki utterly ridiculous for competitive play, and skews games in unnatural ways. I love the mindgames, but I can’t say its an indicator that the mechanic is healthy.
I have mixed feelings about Gambit. On one hand it puts a strain on teambuilding, and mows through its would be checks with Tera or Balloon. On the other hand it is a keystone mon to scave off Ghosts and offense while being an amazing poke itself. Despite voting 4, I would rather see Tera suspected first before honing in on the chess piece.
BAX - (2)
Might be a little sus with Tera but I think the meta has adapted well to Iced asf Zilla. Zama, Ghold, and Gambit are good checks to it and without Boots it has the obvious SR weakness.
Suspect Tera first and then we’ll talk.
SV OU is much better equipped to handle Garg now. Home brought us a Regen pivot not weak to Salt Cure in Glowking who can bring in offensive threats safely vs Garg so they don’t have to eat chip from Salt Cure. We also have more offensive powerhouses like Sneasler, Enamorus, Lando, Tran, etc. Obviously it can Tera to make their lives worse but there is still a price to pay. Tera Water has the opportunity cost of losing to Zapdos. Tera Fairy still leaves it vulnerable to Sneasler.
There are also ways of luring Garg such as Tbolt Covert Cloak Ghold, Tera Grass G-Knot Torn, and ofc Substitute. Using its WCOP winrate is a justifiable argument, but I believe it is cause Garg was slept on a bit until now due to New Toy Syndrome, players are only now starting to prep for it again. Garg is an amazing poke who’s presence is reminiscent of Gen 7-8 Pex.
SD Balloon is ridiculous. Add in the RNG with Dire Claw and Tera Ground or Ghost, you’ve got a pain in the ass. Though I wouldn’t call it banworthy atm. It gets outsped by Torn who can threaten it or Zapdos which can Static it or kill with Hurricane. Tusk can still check it if it isn’t carrying Acro, and if it does have Acro then Ghold checks it just nicely. I think its just another case of Tera pushing certain Pokes over the edge like with Volc and Gambit.
Valiant is a mon that seems broken on paper with a whole stack of coverage options and utility moves, but suffers from 4MSS. It wants CC, Moonblast, CM, Tbolt, Knock Off, Sball, Encore, SD, Destiny Bond, Spirit Break, Aura Sphere, and all these other moves but it just can’t fit them. If anything, Valiant is better for the metagame. Threatens opposing offense while also having the potential to lure would-be checks for its teammates. Its strong, and customizable, I am glad is on a mon that looks as badass as Valiant.
I seriously doubt there is a person out there who legit wants this boi banned.
Honestly I got no opinion on this. I see it as a meme. A viable meme, but a meme nonetheless.
Honestly my only problems with the meta rn are Gambit and Tera, with the former only being a problem because of the latter.
Enamorus is a strong breaker but not overbearing like I thought. Its SR weaknesses means its non HDB sets are high maintenance.
Ursaluna is overrated asf. It was hyped up a shitton when Home came out, close to a month later and Ursa is showing alot of weaknesses. Like Conk, its held back by its speed and Flame Orb wearing ot down, limiting the amount of teams it can fit on besides TR or Screens. Its STABs both have immunities meaning more mindgames for cocaine bear, and Ursa is not a mon that can afford too many misplays. A high risk high reward Poke.
Oh boy, it’s time for some hot takes. Keep in mind I still barely follow this tier’s development, as Scarlet & Violet’s offensive focus seems a little too fast-paced for my liking. The problem as I see it with offensive Pokémon isn’t just power creep, see. It’s the fact that cores of several controversial offensive threats can team up to overwhelm their checks throughout the course of a game, leading to the development of the controversial “broken checks broken” argument.
Whether or not I actually support that argument is very situation-dependent, but I did want to bring it up because I do think it’s nice to have strong Pokémon remain in the tier on both offense and defense. Originally I was just as annoyed with Garganacl as many of you, for example, but now I see these kinds of “stall mons” as a necessary evil that help maintain the pace of the game.
Aaaand then we have this guy.
Hisuian Samurott being on the tiering survey really caught my attention, because I would hardly consider the Pokémon itself to be the problem. Instead, I’m looking at this similar to the Sneasler/Dire Claw debate (minus the RNG factor) where the Pokémon’s signature move might be the issue instead. Entry hazards are in a tough spot right now where the disparity between Great Tusk and other hazard removers continues to grow while the hazards themselves maintain their strong setters. Ceaseless Edge is notable for being the only way to set up Spikes against opposing Gholdengo, which in itself wouldn’t be a problem if Hisuian Samurott didn’t match up so well against some of the Pokémon most commonly seen on opposing hazard stacking offense teams Gholdengo often finds itself on.
It’s because of the metagame’s extreme polarization around the entry hazard war that many of the best offensive threats in the metagame can feel overwhelming. As a result, players will try and find the best matchups against those threats, which is where you’ll have your runs of dominance from Pokémon like Garganacl or the Unaware trio, who are chosen specifically to keep offense in check. But if you keep them in the tier, you’ll have people complaining to ban them for something they didn’t do because Garganacl or whoever else feels like an unkillable stall machine.
This might be a bit tricky to follow, but here’s my frame of logic. Testing Ceaseless Edge instead of Hisuian Samurott itself would allow the Pokémon to still exist in the tier and utilize its matchups against Pokémon that frequently pair on opposing offensive teams. This in turn can lead to lower Great Tusk usage as the parity between it and other hazard clearers increases because of Great Tusk’s incredible role compression, which in turn leads to less people utilizing Garganacl Stall because the archetypes Garganacl matches up well against rely on Great Tusk’s flexibility in the entry hazard war, which- you guessed it- is only made more problematic by Ceaseless Edge being able to attack and set Spikes on the same turn. A nerfed but not banned Hisuian Samurott may also provide extra parity in the opposing Great Tusk matchup since the Great Tusk player no longer has to choose between trying to Rapid Spin or trying to use a Fighting-Type STAB while Hisuian Samurott attempts to win the hazard war by killing Great Tusk with a Water-Type attack.
The basic idea I want to encourage here is that suspecting Ceaseless Edge specifically would start a large domino effect that may take a while to fall into place, but would ultimately help provide as much parity between metagame threats as possible while helping out in the Garganacl Stall conundrum as an added bonus. This is all just my own opinion though, so I wanna know what you guys think.
Whether or not I actually support that argument is very situation-dependent, but I did want to bring it up because I do think it’s nice to have strong Pokémon remain in the tier on both offense and defense. Originally I was just as annoyed with Garganacl as many of you, for example, but now I see these kinds of “stall mons” as a necessary evil that help maintain the pace of the game.
Aaaand then we have this guy.
Hisuian Samurott being on the tiering survey really caught my attention, because I would hardly consider the Pokémon itself to be the problem. Instead, I’m looking at this similar to the Sneasler/Dire Claw debate (minus the RNG factor) where the Pokémon’s signature move might be the issue instead. Entry hazards are in a tough spot right now where the disparity between Great Tusk and other hazard removers continues to grow while the hazards themselves maintain their strong setters. Ceaseless Edge is notable for being the only way to set up Spikes against opposing Gholdengo, which in itself wouldn’t be a problem if Hisuian Samurott didn’t match up so well against some of the Pokémon most commonly seen on opposing hazard stacking offense teams Gholdengo often finds itself on.
It’s because of the metagame’s extreme polarization around the entry hazard war that many of the best offensive threats in the metagame can feel overwhelming. As a result, players will try and find the best matchups against those threats, which is where you’ll have your runs of dominance from Pokémon like Garganacl or the Unaware trio, who are chosen specifically to keep offense in check. But if you keep them in the tier, you’ll have people complaining to ban them for something they didn’t do because Garganacl or whoever else feels like an unkillable stall machine.
This might be a bit tricky to follow, but here’s my frame of logic. Testing Ceaseless Edge instead of Hisuian Samurott itself would allow the Pokémon to still exist in the tier and utilize its matchups against Pokémon that frequently pair on opposing offensive teams. This in turn can lead to lower Great Tusk usage as the parity between it and other hazard clearers increases because of Great Tusk’s incredible role compression, which in turn leads to less people utilizing Garganacl Stall because the archetypes Garganacl matches up well against rely on Great Tusk’s flexibility in the entry hazard war, which- you guessed it- is only made more problematic by Ceaseless Edge being able to attack and set Spikes on the same turn. A nerfed but not banned Hisuian Samurott may also provide extra parity in the opposing Great Tusk matchup since the Great Tusk player no longer has to choose between trying to Rapid Spin or trying to use a Fighting-Type STAB while Hisuian Samurott attempts to win the hazard war by killing Great Tusk with a Water-Type attack.
The basic idea I want to encourage here is that suspecting Ceaseless Edge specifically would start a large domino effect that may take a while to fall into place, but would ultimately help provide as much parity between metagame threats as possible while helping out in the Garganacl Stall conundrum as an added bonus. This is all just my own opinion though, so I wanna know what you guys think.
Unburden Sneasler is far faster than +1 Moon.
Fun has nothing to do with what's broken or uncompetitive.
216 EV Sneasler Speed after Unburden boost: 660
252+ EV Roaring Moon Speed at +1 (can be done via Dragon Dance, Choice Scarf, or Protosynthesis): 535
Just in case anyone wanted exact numbers
Enjoyment: 6, it might be 8 or 9 with no gambit
Tera: I voted yes ban, at the start of gen 9 I thought it was the best, most balanced mechanic ever designed but every ban makes it more apparent that this may be even worse than dynamax. please d e l e t e Tera. Especially if we get Megas back.
Volc: I voted 4, volc isn’t the balanced little baby people are making it out to be, but I’d like to see it return, especially if Tera gets the boot.
Tera: I voted yes ban, at the start of gen 9 I thought it was the best, most balanced mechanic ever designed but every ban makes it more apparent that this may be even worse than dynamax. please d e l e t e Tera. Especially if we get Megas back.
Volc: I voted 4, volc isn’t the balanced little baby people are making it out to be, but I’d like to see it return, especially if Tera gets the boot.
Yes. Hell yes. We need more people who see the bigger picture. I doubt the council would do this, since ceaseless edge is only on one mon, but I wish they would.Oh boy, it’s time for some hot takes. Keep in mind I still barely follow this tier’s development, as Scarlet & Violet’s offensive focus seems a little too fast-paced for my liking. The problem as I see it with offensive Pokémon isn’t just power creep, see. It’s the fact that cores of several controversial offensive threats can team up to overwhelm their checks throughout the course of a game, leading to the development of the controversial “broken checks broken” argument.
Whether or not I actually support that argument is very situation-dependent, but I did want to bring it up because I do think it’s nice to have strong Pokémon remain in the tier on both offense and defense. Originally I was just as annoyed with Garganacl as many of you, for example, but now I see these kinds of “stall mons” as a necessary evil that help maintain the pace of the game.
Aaaand then we have this guy.
Hisuian Samurott being on the tiering survey really caught my attention, because I would hardly consider the Pokémon itself to be the problem. Instead, I’m looking at this similar to the Sneasler/Dire Claw debate (minus the RNG factor) where the Pokémon’s signature move might be the issue instead. Entry hazards are in a tough spot right now where the disparity between Great Tusk and other hazard removers continues to grow while the hazards themselves maintain their strong setters. Ceaseless Edge is notable for being the only way to set up Spikes against opposing Gholdengo, which in itself wouldn’t be a problem if Hisuian Samurott didn’t match up so well against some of the Pokémon most commonly seen on opposing hazard stacking offense teams Gholdengo often finds itself on.
It’s because of the metagame’s extreme polarization around the entry hazard war that many of the best offensive threats in the metagame can feel overwhelming. As a result, players will try and find the best matchups against those threats, which is where you’ll have your runs of dominance from Pokémon like Garganacl or the Unaware trio, who are chosen specifically to keep offense in check. But if you keep them in the tier, you’ll have people complaining to ban them for something they didn’t do because Garganacl or whoever else feels like an unkillable stall machine.
This might be a bit tricky to follow, but here’s my frame of logic. Testing Ceaseless Edge instead of Hisuian Samurott itself would allow the Pokémon to still exist in the tier and utilize its matchups against Pokémon that frequently pair on opposing offensive teams. This in turn can lead to lower Great Tusk usage as the parity between it and other hazard clearers increases because of Great Tusk’s incredible role compression, which in turn leads to less people utilizing Garganacl Stall because the archetypes Garganacl matches up well against rely on Great Tusk’s flexibility in the entry hazard war, which- you guessed it- is only made more problematic by Ceaseless Edge being able to attack and set Spikes on the same turn. A nerfed but not banned Hisuian Samurott may also provide extra parity in the opposing Great Tusk matchup since the Great Tusk player no longer has to choose between trying to Rapid Spin or trying to use a Fighting-Type STAB while Hisuian Samurott attempts to win the hazard war by killing Great Tusk with a Water-Type attack.
The basic idea I want to encourage here is that suspecting Ceaseless Edge specifically would start a large domino effect that may take a while to fall into place, but would ultimately help provide as much parity between metagame threats as possible while helping out in the Garganacl Stall conundrum as an added bonus. This is all just my own opinion though, so I wanna know what you guys think.
Last Respects Houndstone moment
Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
The problem with this is this is just not how things are done. Moves are only banned if multiple mons get it like last respects or shed tail. Ceaseless edge, on the other hand, only one mon gets it so whether we like it or not, if it's too annoying, Samurott's gonna go
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
I just do not like it in the tier so yeah. We do not *need* to ban it, but I think it is dumb and cheesy and it does not really add anything to the tier. Ban it, but I am not foaming at the mouth for a ban.Now onto meatier things
MU moth gets a 3 from me. I think at the end of the day, we should look into Tera first. I know that the community will be pushing hard for this, but I think that testing it before handling Tera is a waste of time. Volc is 100% only a problem in SV because of Tera. If you want to bring Volc back, take on the elephant in the room. I wavered between a 4 or a 3, but I do think its a 3 rn. If you asked me pre home, I would have probably given it a 4. Late game gambit is still the best late game wincon in the tier and its hard to answer outside of a very healthy Tusk or a Zamazenta that has Dauntless Shield intact. The guessing game for its defensive tera is obnoxious and makes dealing with Gambit so hard. Literally it feels like the tier is very centralized around it right now with how good it is at just blowing through teams in the late game.So why isn't it higher? Tera. Tera is the elephant in the room with this mon, and I feel right now it is the best time to revisit it. The tier is relatively stable enough that we can handle Tera. Nothing on this slate rings alarm bells enough to me that we need to get rid of it first. I can soldier through more Gambit games to discuss Tera first. I do think it could be broken even without Tera but right now, I would prefer action be taken on it first.
Another 3. I think Sneasler rn is dumb, but a large part of that is Tera Acro sets imo. I would rather test this after Tera so we can separate the Dire Claw shenanigans from dumb Tera cheese in the back. If you remove Tera from the equation, I think Sneasler is 100% fine. Dire Claw cheese sucks, but its like Jirachi or Gyara Waterfall in old gens. Sometimes your check will be flinched and you lose. Or maybe you get Parad. Sneasler is dumb and haxy, but I think the problem with Sneasler is that it is the second best wincon in the tier rn behind Gambit and that is where the true problem lies. SD Acro sets are so damn good at clearing teams esp when you have to play the Tera guessing game. Garg is fine, 2. I know it does well at WCOP, but it is hugely reliant on Tera to do its job right. I kind of view it like Toxapex as a necessary evil. Yes Garg is a lame fat fat fatty who spreads way too much chip, but he holds a lot back due to its great defensive presence. I also think the hazards meta rn is particularly **** so that makes him harder to deal with. It also is far less of a priority to test than anything with Tera. 2 from me. Its good, don't get me wrong, but I feel like it is easy enough to handle in practice. It is a swiss army knife of a pokemon that can do so much, but it ultimately is not doing it all at once. I feel like in practice, its not that hard to play around valiant if you can scout its set ok from team preview. Tera can be silly and this thing can do so much, but I think it adds to the tier enough for me to say its fine for now. 1. Offensively setting up Spikes is nice, but I think this thing is fine. It is a symptom of the hazards meta being super strong rn rather than the cause of it. 1. Yeah, it cuts through fat teams like butter, but I do not think it is a top priority right now. Other stuff: I mentioned specifically
and . The former I would have put on the survey before Bax or Samurott. I think Pult is super annoying to deal with in builder and its the main reason screens are even on the radar for most people. Even if its not Screens, this thing is so versatile its obnoxious. Specs is still amazing, Sub Disable, Sub Wisp, I feel it is just so annoying to have to prep for. It outspeeds everything in the tier and just ends up doing something silly. It also feels like if you do not see it lead you have to play a huge guessing game on its set, especially since most are on the special side. Even outside of that, Physical Pult isn't a complete joke and can be dumb due to how hard you are conditioned to expect Special pult.
As for Gholdengo, I think it is the biggest reason the hazards meta is the way it is right now. Defog sucks rn and there aren't too many amazing spinners that are not Big Daddy Tusk, but it does constrain things in builder and is a bit centralizing. Not a high priority for me, but I think its worth keeping an eye on.
I still need to see what the ban acomplished, there are not changes on teams, other bans have had a clear impact on the meta but that didn't happen with Volc's, which may indicate that it wasn't oppressive at all or else people would run especific stuff to beat it. not only we have a lot of checks on several of the most used mons but we also just allowed a cover legendary with absurb stats that can beat it not matter what, with other stuff like encore, trick, status, Dozo, :Samurrot-Hisui: talking about hazards, it is really a big deal as everyone is making it to be? We have limited options yeah, but if it were nearly as bad as everyone is making it to be people would be using mold breaker Hawlucha to get the defog not matter what or Talonflame would be used more outside stall giving how many hazard teams relly on suicide leads.
If it means getting rid of Ceaseless Edge, that’s fine; I’m just saying this isn’t my preferred option if I had a choice. Again, though, these are just my opinions.
Ghost-Types are pretty amazing in the current metagame, and I think mentioning how they exasterbate the entry hazard metagame is an incredibly good point to make. I wouldn’t be opposed to a test for either of of these guys, but at the same time, I would expect Terastalization to have some say in how good these ghosts really are.Other stuff: I mentioned specifically
The former I would have put on the survey before Bax or Samurott. I think Pult is super annoying to deal with in builder and its the main reason screens are even on the radar for most people. Even if its not Screens, this thing is so versatile its obnoxious. Specs is still amazing, Sub Disable, Sub Wisp, I feel it is just so annoying to have to prep for. It outspeeds everything in the tier and just ends up doing something silly. It also feels like if you do not see it lead you have to play a huge guessing game on its set, especially since most are on the special side. Even outside of that, Physical Pult isn't a complete joke and can be dumb due to how hard you are conditioned to expect Special pult.
As for Gholdengo, I think it is the biggest reason the hazards meta is the way it is right now. Defog sucks rn and there aren't too many amazing spinners that are not Big Daddy Tusk, but it does constrain things in builder and is a bit centralizing. Not a high priority for me, but I think its worth keeping an eye on.
People are probably getting reverse swept by Gambit which is making them salty. I do think it's super strong though and not many mons are more consistent imo.
Chesnaught,and several other things I may be missing then still don't get why this mon still gets so many hate, it is just a very good Pokémon but we have a lot of viable tools to beat it and you may use some of them on any serious team, complaing about Gambit would be complaing about SR just because you made a mono weak to rocks team without boots or a hazard removal.
:Samurrot-Hisui: talking about hazards, it is really a big deal as everyone is making it to be? We have limited options yeah, but if it were nearly as bad as everyone is making it to be people would be using mold breaker Hawlucha to get the defog not matter what or Talonflame would be used more outside stall giving how many hazard teams relly on suicide leads.
It’s less about Hisuian Samurott and more about Ceaseless Edge in my opinion.
nothing is wrong with ceaseless edge lmao, is there something wrong with stone axe too?
Tera: 5
: 5 (Luck items should not exist in a competitive enviroment)
: 4 (Even if its cheesy its not qb levels of broken imo)
: 5 (I feel like ppl are voting lower on this mon bc of tera being a large reason behind how broken it is but that suspect isnt happening for a while i think. Might be a candidate for most skilless mon of all time. Often the biggest thing preventing this mon from reverse sweeping late game is sucker mind games)
: 3 (always thought this mon was unhealthy (aside from during the shed tail orthworm meta) but there's bigger problems atm)
: 3 (Dire Claw is dumb but so are the SD Unburden sets, unsure if its broken but i do think it deserves a test)
: 4 (this mon has many checks, but it also has a billion sets and you cant prepare for all of them)
: 2 (scary dder but not any scarier than other tera setup sweepers imo)
: 1 (banning this does not fix our spikes problem at all)
: 5 (Luck items should not exist in a competitive enviroment): 4 (Even if its cheesy its not qb levels of broken imo): 5 (I feel like ppl are voting lower on this mon bc of tera being a large reason behind how broken it is but that suspect isnt happening for a while i think. Might be a candidate for most skilless mon of all time. Often the biggest thing preventing this mon from reverse sweeping late game is sucker mind games): 3 (always thought this mon was unhealthy (aside from during the shed tail orthworm meta) but there's bigger problems atm): 3 (Dire Claw is dumb but so are the SD Unburden sets, unsure if its broken but i do think it deserves a test): 4 (this mon has many checks, but it also has a billion sets and you cant prepare for all of them): 2 (scary dder but not any scarier than other tera setup sweepers imo): 1 (banning this does not fix our spikes problem at all)
*Basculegion has entered the chat*
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