Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Lectrys]

Rocky Helmet


0 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 150-177 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 96-113 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
(And 0 Spa.Att. invest Heatrans aren't that common anyways, this is the best case scenario)
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-167 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO

Samurott SUCKS! It just gets thrown once on the field and dies.
Please stop using him and leave Hatterena and balance teams alone!!!

OK, I messed up with the Slowking-G Sludge Bomb (all but one of them I encountered used Chilly Reception immediately every time). I guess we could say that switching it into Slowking-G is about as dangerous as switching it into Gholdengo. Note that I already said that "although Samurott-H actually might not survive two switch-ins into Scarf Make It Rain", which covers your calc above.

Heatran basically cannot 2HKO Samu-H with an offensive non-Specs set without Teraing unless it uses Body Press or goes Modest:
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 139-164 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 115-136 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage

This is one of the worst-case no-Tera Heatran scenarios and Heatran basically cannot even scrape a 2HKO. My favourite Samu-H set has Expert Belt to guaranteed OHKO Offensive Heatran back with Razor Shell while increasing Sucker Punch damage against Scarf Gholdengo. Samurott-H preys on Heatran.

I actually think Samu-H has power problems compared to Kingambit, but partnering really well with Enamorus and OK with Iron Valiant is one heck of a niche. Note that Kingambit has problems dealing with Heatran and therefore does not partner with offensive Fairies quite as well.

 

[Goodstyle]

Ever since the volc and water shifu bans I've been of the opinion that gambit is warping the meta around it.

Here's a pretty high level ladder replay of tera gambit nearly pulling off a crazy comeback against me.

What's particularly egregious here is that gambit sets up on my tauros-aqua (which I started using SPECIFICALLY for gambit) while I am at 70% and have it intimidated.

Furthermore, I correctly predict the tera and hit him with two rain-boosted Raging Bulls (which even after a layer of spikes he survives).

I then have to win another 50-50 to get the roost of with my physically defensive Zapdos (which I also use in part because of gambit) and after that am barely able to kill him.

All of this after I carefully positioned myself the final ~8 ish turns to make sure gambit didn't get a free turn to set up and that I would get the intimidate off with Tauros.

And what's funny is if he was Black Glasses > Lum Berry he probably would've won anyway

This replay shows the opposite of what you were arguing. Kingambit is very manageable, even in the end game. This guy made a lot of correct guesses and still lost because he could not breakthrough the Tauros. The fact that you can Roost in his face and he has to make an unfavorable guess each time is telling.

What happened here is Gambit did nothing all game, showed up at the end and then only managed to kill a very weakened Samurott with sucker punch because he guessed right. You could have immediately switched into Tauros and might not have lost even one mon.

Gambit is balanced because he's incredibly slow, reliant on Tera, and has an unreliable priority move. He gets checked by the most popular Pokemon in the tier, is especially weak to Will-o-Wisp, and has to give up an item or use a Tera that doesn't remove his ground weakness to fight that.

Volcorona is different because there's no universal answer to it thanks to the way Tera works. You can always beat Gambit with certain mons with certain moves. For example, there is no Gambit set up that beats curse Dondozo. Same can't be said about Volc.

EDIT: On top of all that, the only reason it came down to luck at all, instead of you just 2 shutting it outright was luck.

 

[Tree69420]

It gets 2hko by every single mon you listed.
He can't check anything, just a pawn you throw out to die.
I think the reason why he is so obnoxious despite how garbage he is lies within his versatility: you never know if your opponent has knock off, sacred sword, grass knot, a priority (which one?), taunt, hydro pump, ice beam, etc. And you're never safe switching a mon to check him or make progress.

try AV, its goated
survives a zap volt and then gets max spikes on dengo

 

[UnusualBoy]

Same here. it's kinda sad that gamefreak are so obssessed with the gen 1 shit like DragoUgly and neglect the pokemon from later gens. They didn't even give Garchomp fucking dragon dance for fuck's sake. Personally, I'm not gonna quit just yet even if ol Chompy boi drops to uu because we're still in the Home metagame which will get fucked up once the dlcs come around, if they ever get released that is. If Chompy doesn't get any new shit in the dlcs, fuck pokemon. I'm gonna sell my soul to Satan and have him curse gamefreak

Not just Garchomp but even stuff like Salamence, Metagross, Haxorus, Hydreigon, or many others don't even get new tools, or rather, the tools they need. Like how Garchomp needs dragon dance or something to reliably boost its speed, Hydreigon needs a poison move or the others need some sort of buff to keep them relevant in ou

Honestly though, power creep in this generation is on a whole new level of insanity. We got mons with stupidly insane abilities like Garganacl or Gholdengo. Then there's the paradox mons who are just their base forms but on steroids. Gamefreak was obviously high on meth when they made the paradox mons because they couldn't even come up with actual names for them. And when you consider how much bugs SV had when it was released, it makes one wonder if gamefreak was indeed high on meth when they were developing this game

Not Dragonite catching strays when the only buff he got was back in gen v with multiscale while Garchomp got a mega form in gen VI and got new useful moves gens later in scale shot and spike... Dnite asks to be excluded from this privilege narrative.

 

[Ctann]

This replay shows the opposite of what you were arguing. Kingambit is very manageable, even in the end game. This guy made a lot of correct guesses and still lost because he could not breakthrough the Tauros. The fact that you can Roost in his face and he has to make an unfavorable guess each time is telling.

What happened here is Gambit did nothing all game, showed up at the end and then only managed to kill a very weakened Samurott with sucker punch because he guessed right. You could have immediately switched into Tauros and might not have lost even one mon.

Gambit is balanced because he's incredibly slow, reliant on Tera, and has an unreliable priority move. He gets checked by the most popular Pokemon in the tier, is especially weak to Will-o-Wisp, and has to give up an item or use a Tera that doesn't remove his ground weakness to fight that.

Volcorona is different because there's no universal answer to it thanks to the way Tera works. You can always beat Gambit with certain mons with certain moves. For example, there is no Gambit set up that beats curse Dondozo. Same can't be said about Volc.

EDIT: On top of all that, the only reason it came down to luck at all, instead of you just 2 shutting it outright was luck.

I honestly read this as sarcastic and was waiting for the gotcha at the end.

please explain each argument logically.

Virgin volcarona, a Pokémon were the only 50/50 was whether it would Tera or not, and the only guess was what Tera and what coverage it had. You have to research 15 different matchups for MU moth and delicately craft your team. Only to be read like a book and have your team dissected by an experienced player. Relied on surprise. Verse a player once and they’re unlikely to lose to the volc again unless you have a distinct MU advantage.

vs.


Chad kingambit, pick your (optional) coverage type, pick your Tera, pick your item. Rotate it if you like over a few games (very relevant in a small pool of players in higher ELO). Win games despite the opponent “being checked by the most popular Pokémon in the tier, and hating status like will-o-wisp”. Only relies on 50/50s at most to completely turn a game on its head.

-

Volcarona ban was a knee jerk reaction ban. It’s not even in the same conversation as kingambit. Kingambit is/was only suppressed by all the high power threats that were introduced into OU. It’ll get worse, not better. Volcarona conveniently MU’d against the best threats, so it was getting better with each ban, not worse.

Volcarona’s impact on the meta was on team building at most. Volcarona relied on matchup, hence the nickname “matchup moth”.

Kingambit impact on the meta is entire playstyles, you’re walking on egg shells against it. Whilst the meta doesn’t revolve around gambit like it did around eleki and magearna, you have the viability of Pokémon and Tera types directly correlated with their resistance to sucker punch.

“no universal answer to Volcarona”. By Volcarona using specific sets like substitute and Tera grass to beat clodsire, it sacrifices against 1000 other matchups. If it uses some weird shot to bear blissey, it loses to 99% of teams. Tera fairy with will-o-wisp to matchup against dragonite? Trolled by a Tera fire kingambit.

If kingambit decides to run something less common like tera water to perform against rain, it will still retain a lot of its matchup strength against anything else

in short; you have the mother of all Tera options, coverage options and item options. They’re onterchangeable whilst barely affecting your team. Having gambit forces the opponent into a specific playstyle. The only downside? If you can call it a downside… is that kingambit receives the lion share of your Tera’s, so that playstyle can become predictable in a way, and you can kinda try and force out a Tera earlier on something else to make it possible to actually deal with the endgame checkmate.

bad matchup against volc? Sure you walk on eggshells but with ideal positioning , it’s still possible to win.

But matchup affects more than volc, look at dragapult, garganacl, and other high viability threats.

bad matchup against a team with kingamboy? then it’s likely the gambit will sweep you. if the opponent has a matchup advantage they are usually able to save the Tera for the kingambit and dunk in the end game.

volc: Tera reliant to break most of its checks, needed surprise
Gambit: best Tera receiver in OU, you Tera to steal a game back if required.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I honestly read this as sarcastic and was waiting for the gotcha at the end.

please explain each argument logically.

Virgin volcarona, a Pokémon were the only 50/50 was whether it would Tera or not, and the only guess was what Tera and what coverage it had. You have to research 15 different matchups for MU moth and delicately craft your team. Only to be read like a book and have your team dissected by an experienced player. Relied on surprise

vs.


Chad kingambit, pick your (optional) coverage type, pick your Tera, pick your item. Rotate it if you like over a few games (very relevant in a small pool of players in higher ELO). Win games despite the opponent “being checked by the most popular Pokémon in the tier, and hating status like will-o-wisp”. Only relies on 50/50s at most to completely turn a game on its head.

-

Volcarona ban was a knee jerk reaction ban. It’s not even in the same conversation as kingambit. Kingambit is/was only suppressed by all the high power threats that were introduced into OU. It’ll get worse, not better

I never lost to Gambit pre-Home with bulk up Tusk (the best pre-home set, it is a fact, sorry to scarf tusk fans) not matter what tera it had other stuff like ID corv, Loom, Dozo also checked it, now it has to worry stuff like Zama, Zapdos and other few checks. Gambit is good but has a lot of good counterplay so I believe it is balanced.

 

[Ctann]

Yes noted about the counterplay

i too, have tricked a choice scarf onto a kingambit.

I too, have done weird shot like substitute on iron moth

Spoiler

It’s Unlike the current ban candidate Zamazenta which somewhat warps the meta and makes stacking too many physical attackers unviable, but at least can be easily read and played around, because it don’t change too much ..

Spoiler

The MU a 50/50 in the endgame (at best). And we all know a big part of tusk being so dominant was it’s MU against the #2 in OU. Even in Ubers, yveltal was used more than ghost horse rider. Yveltal had other features that made it #1, but ghost rider was a big contributing factor.

 

[Narmy]

If it is unbalanced then well, get rid of the mechanic tbh.

Hellllll no
Attract is my favorite niche strategy no one is ever prepared for

 

[RaichuBestMon]

Man you were bitching about it less than a page ago. (Also lol Glowking is scared to death of Hamu)



At least try to be consistent. Hamurott generates high pressure thanks to unblockable spikes, in a meta with very limited anti hazard options. The typing is very flexible too giving it ways of getting in and being useful. Even just one layer of spikes+rocks is tough to deal with.

Sticky web teams are awful, yet it can ruin some HO teams. Samurott is the same thing with me, he sucks in every metric but he always finds a way to ruin my balance teams.
Btw some people that are far better than me shared their thoughts and even if I still can't see it they are most likely right in their jugement.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Yes noted about the counterplay

i too, have tricked a choice scarf onto a kingambit.

Spoiler

The MU a 50/50 in the endgame (at best). And we all know a big part of tusk being so dominant was it’s MU against the #2 in OU. Even in Ubers, yveltal was used more than ghost horse rider. Yveltal had other features that made it #1, but ghost rider was a big contributing factor.

Yveltal has been top tier on ubers since its debut, amazing stats and movepool against a huge portion of the tier since most of the uber mons are weak to dark.
Besides trick, I also like to use encore on Gambit, not makes the 50-50 more risky for the gambit player but also lets you to punish sd while you can set up or do whatever you want in those free turns. Encore Dragonite is very good rn, lets you to punish a lot of strats like ID zama.
About Zama, will post my thoughts on the other thread if I can get reqs (my team has some issues and crappy internet is making me lose a lot). But I personally consider Hero to be better than the other, will explain it when I can.

 

[Magcargo]

I never lost to Gambit pre-Home with bulk up Tusk (the best pre-home set, it is a fact, sorry to scarf tusk fans) not matter what tera it had other stuff like ID corv, Loom, Dozo also checked it, now it has to worry stuff like Zama, Zapdos and other few checks. Gambit is good but has a lot of good counterplay so I believe it is balanced.

I've been seeing a lot of Tera Blast Flying Gambit running around during Urshifu meta to goob that & Tusk

Gambit certainly has the houndstone factor - moreso than you expect because all its moves are getting buffed instead of one + it's entire kit is much better than Houndstone (stats, typing, movepool). I've certainly gotten a lot of reverse sweeps with Gambit, but dealing with an opposing end-gamw gambit sweep is centered around forcing certain 50/50s via moves like Substitute, Wisp, etc, in addition to other tools like Intimidate. It is somewhat similar to Volcarona in that Health Management & Tera Management are critical for it to get the perfect sweep. This is why Leftovers is so powerful on it; it lets it recover health even if it gets the 50/50 wrong which it can abuse with its bulk.There have been many games where Gambits leftovers recovery was the deciding factor in it sweeping or not. HDB is also strong since it makes it more resilient in the face of hazards, which are constantly chipping it down.

Ironically, one of the best Pokemon at stopping an end games gambit sweep is your own Gambit. If you position yourself to send it out last, you will likely have an advantage in the 1v1 since the enemy Gambit is chipped down. In a neutral exchange, the gambit with a higher Supreme overlord boost has the advantage (which has been an important deciding factor for me in many games).

What can be annoying about Gambit is that Tera isn't as useful in checking it because it hits so hard & it's STAB is unresisted. Most Pokemon become worse checks to it when they Tera like Ting-Lu and Tusk. With other Pokemon, you can argue Tera at least can put them in a bad position like Tera Fire Gambit vs Volc or Tera Ghost Gambit vs Zama.

 

[Ctann]

Yveltal has been top tier on ubers since its debut, amazing stats and movepool against a huge portion of the tier since most of the uber mons are weak to dark.
Besides trick, I also like to use encore on Gambit, not makes the 50-50 more risky for the gambit player but also lets you to punish sd while you can set up or do whatever you want in those free turns. Encore Dragonite is very good rn, lets you to punish a lot of strats like ID zama.

noted on the encore. It’s pretty cool the first time when you surprise a kingambit with protect + encore screamtail. If you lose something to sucker punch, encore it the next turn and pp steal it

the best counterplay was actually breloom. Since you could keep it for the end game and just always spore kingambit, except for grass type gambit. Iron hands is also reliable and beats most sets.

keep in mind anyone who’s seen an encore dragonite before will not do a second ID once your dragonite switches in. Stone edge is more common now too. The best zam checks are the special hitters like the slow twins , dragapult, gholdengo, etc.

 

[Magcargo]

noted on the encore. It’s pretty cool the first time when you surprise a kingambit with protect + encore screamtail.

the best counterplay was actually breloom. Since you could keep it for the end game and just always spore kingambit, except for grass type gambit. Iron hands is also reliable and beats most sets.

keep in mind anyone who’s seen an encore dragonite before will not do a second ID once your dragonite switches in.

IDK about Encore actually. There was one game were I was able to finess my way around it lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1884332713-1odyzchh27fjtfvdccj2cpvjhintd0zpw

TBF though, the opponent messed up by going for Encore again instead of using Fire Spin.

 

[Mega Breloom]

noted on the encore. It’s pretty cool the first time when you surprise a kingambit with protect + encore screamtail.

the best counterplay was actually breloom. Since you could keep it for the end game and just always spore kingambit, except for grass type gambit. Iron hands is also reliable and beats most sets.

keep in mind anyone who’s seen an encore dragonite before will not do a second ID once your dragonite switches in.

Usually the Zamas come in to answer your Dragonite expecting to wall it with ID (same with ID Corvs) so you already boosted your speed and can punish the ID with encore, it just find cool that you it can flip the MU against the most potent physical walls rn.

I've been seeing a lot of Tera Blast Flying Gambit running around during Urshifu meta to good that & Tusk

Gambit certainly has the houndstone factor (moreo than you expect because all its moves are getting buffed instead of one + it's entire kit is much better than Houndstone (stats, typing, movepool). I've certainly gotten a lot of reverse sweeps with Gambit, but dealing with an opposing end-gamw gambit sweep is centered around forcing certain 50/50s via moves like Substitute, Wisp, etc, in addition to other tools like Intimidate. It is somewhat similar to Volcarona in that Health Management & Tera Management are critical for it to get the perfect sweep. This is why Leftovers is so powerful on it; it lets it recover health even if it gets the 50/50 wrong which it can abuse with its bulk.There have been many games where Gambits leftovers recovery was the deciding factor in it sweeping or not. HDB is also strong since it makes it more resilient in the face of hazards, which are constantly chipping it down.

Ironically, one of the best Pokemon at stopping an end games gambit sweep is your own Gambit. If you position yourself to send it out last, you will likely have an advantage in the 1v1 since the enemy Gambit is chipped down. In a neutral exchange, the gambit with a higher Supreme overlord boost has the advantage (which has been an important deciding factor for me in many games).

What can be annoying about Gambit is that Tera isn't as useful in checking it because it hits so hard & it's STAB is unresisted. Most Pokemon become worse checks to it when they Tera like Ting-Lu and Tusk. With other Pokemon, you can argue Tera at least can put them in a bad position like Tera Fire Gambit vs Volc or Tera Ghost Gambit vs Zama.

Agree with that about tera not being able do much defensively outside some scenarios where you can ko back and survive the SP thanks to it. I feel like the best way to deal with gambit is status moves like encore, trick, Destiny bond, burning or sleeping it when the endgame starts, I feel like every team should have something like that but it is another topic to discuss.

 

[Ctann]

I've been seeing a lot of Tera Blast Flying Gambit running around during Urshifu meta to good that & Tusk

Gambit certainly has the houndstone factor (moreo than you expect because all its moves are getting buffed instead of one + it's entire kit is much better than Houndstone (stats, typing, movepool). I've certainly gotten a lot of reverse sweeps with Gambit, but dealing with an opposing end-gamw gambit sweep is centered around forcing certain 50/50s via moves like Substitute, Wisp, etc, in addition to other tools like Intimidate. It is somewhat similar to Volcarona in that Health Management & Tera Management are critical for it to get the perfect sweep. This is why Leftovers is so powerful on it; it lets it recover health even if it gets the 50/50 wrong which it can abuse with its bulk.There have been many games where Gambits leftovers recovery was the deciding factor in it sweeping or not. HDB is also strong since it makes it more resilient in the face of hazards, which are constantly chipping it down.

Ironically, one of the best Pokemon at stopping an end games gambit sweep is your own Gambit. If you position yourself to send it out last, you will likely have an advantage in the 1v1 since the enemy Gambit is chipped down. In a neutral exchange, the gambit with a higher Supreme overlord boost has the advantage (which has been an important deciding factor for me in many games).

What can be annoying about Gambit is that Tera isn't as useful in checking it because it hits so hard & it's STAB is unresisted. Most Pokemon become worse checks to it when they Tera like Ting-Lu and Tusk. With other Pokemon, you can argue Tera at least can put them in a bad position like Tera Fire Gambit vs Volc or Tera Ghost Gambit vs Zama.

you’re playing a Volcarona: you position things perfectly, you predict a few plays, you win. And breathe a sigh of relief.

you’re playing a kingambit: you have dondozo, tusk and zamazenta on your team, you also have encore, trick and substitute on your other 3 Pokémon. One of them is iron valiant with a booster energy and a x4 sucker resist. You position things perfectly, you predict a few plays, you should win. Kingambit is last one standing, and wins anyway on a 50/50

haha .. it’s hyperbole of course you won’t lose to a gambit with that team unless the other team overall was better. But it’s a funny and simple way of explaining it.

 

[Goodstyle]

I honestly read this as sarcastic and was waiting for the gotcha at the end.

please explain each argument logically.

Virgin volcarona, a Pokémon were the only 50/50 was whether it would Tera or not, and the only guess was what Tera and what coverage it had. You have to research 15 different matchups for MU moth and delicately craft your team. Only to be read like a book and have your team dissected by an experienced player. Relied on surprise. Verse a player once and they’re unlikely to lose to the volc again unless you have a distinct MU advantage.

vs.


Chad kingambit, pick your (optional) coverage type, pick your Tera, pick your item. Rotate it if you like over a few games (very relevant in a small pool of players in higher ELO). Win games despite the opponent “being checked by the most popular Pokémon in the tier, and hating status like will-o-wisp”. Only relies on 50/50s at most to completely turn a game on its head.

-

Volcarona ban was a knee jerk reaction ban. It’s not even in the same conversation as kingambit. Kingambit is/was only suppressed by all the high power threats that were introduced into OU. It’ll get worse, not better. Volcarona conveniently MU’d against the best threats, so it was getting better with each ban, not worse.

Volcarona’s impact on the meta was on team building at most. Volcarona relied on matchup, hence the nickname “matchup moth”.

Kingambit impact on the meta is entire playstyles, you’re walking on egg shells against it. Whilst the meta doesn’t revolve around gambit like it did around eleki and magearna, you have the viability of Pokémon and Tera types directly correlated with their resistance to sucker punch.

“no universal answer to Volcarona”. By Volcarona using specific sets like substitute and Tera grass to beat clodsire, it sacrifices against 1000 other matchups. If it uses some weird shot to bear blissey, it loses to 99% of teams. Tera fairy with will-o-wisp to matchup against dragonite? Trolled by a Tera fire kingambit.

If kingambit decides to run something less common like tera water to perform against rain, it will still retain a lot of its matchup strength against anything else

in short; you have the mother of all Tera options, coverage options and item options. They’re onterchangeable whilst barely affecting your team. Having gambit forces the opponent into a specific playstyle. The only downside? If you can call it a downside… is that kingambit receives the lion share of your Tera’s, so that playstyle can become predictable in a way, and you can kinda try and force out a Tera earlier on something else to make it possible to actually deal with the endgame checkmate.

bad matchup against volc? Sure you walk on eggshells but with ideal positioning , it’s still possible to win.

But matchup affects more than volc, look at dragapult, garganacl, and other high viability threats.

bad matchup against a team with kingamboy? then it’s likely the gambit will sweep you. if the opponent has a matchup advantage they are usually able to save the Tera for the kingambit and dunk in the end game.

volc: Tera reliant to break most of its checks, needed surprise
Gambit: best Tera receiver in OU, you Tera to steal a game back if required.

The thing with Volc, is that it's way more than a guessing game, it was a win condition. It just beats its checks if it has the right Tera, there is no viable version of Kingambit that beats Dondozo, Bulk Up Great Tusk (or even Ice Spinner Tusk), Tauros, or most bulky mon with Wisp. You guess wrong one time against Volc, that could be the whole game, meanwhile Kingambit has to repeatedly make the right predictions with Sucker Punch or else you just got hit with a massive debuff.

Look at Dragapult, a mon Kingambit SHOULD beat. If it has fire blast, or Kingambit is at low enough HP, you have to guess, or you're screwed. This is a mon with wisp AND substitute, the other bane of Kingambit's existence (don't even get me started on encore). Kingambit might lose to the stuff it should counter, meanwhile Volcs can sometimes outlast Toxapex.

There is no similar counterplay to Volc. You let it set up, and it has the right tera, and its over. You can't out play a boosted Volcorona, you lose the game if you don't have the specific counter to that set variant. And it's not exactly hard to set up either since Quiver raises its special bulk, it has Wisp, flame body, and it has recovery moves in the form of morning sun and giga drain.

With Gambit, you always have Dozo, and for now, Zam. Hell, you can tera Garg and use Iron Defence or Curse to shut out Gambit. You can reverse Tera into a fighting type as Gholdengo and hit him with Focus Blast or Make it Rain if he tera'd. There is no reverse Tera answer to Volcorona when it's set up, because it gains bulk and it's just too strong.

I'm not pretending that Volc was easy to play, or powerful out of the box like Gambit. I just see its ceiling as much higher than Gambit's mostly due to its speed and game swinging potential.

 

[agslash23]

Not Dragonite catching strays when the only buff he got was back in gen v with multiscale while Garchomp got a mega form in gen VI and got new useful moves gens later in scale shot and spike... Dnite asks to be excluded from this privilege narrative.

Garchomp got a mega that is worse than its base form. It got scale shot in SS, which was the best thing ever, but SV doesn't have that. Spikes are good for sure, until you realize that in the same gen we got million of other grounds which are much bulkier and have much more utility than Chomp

 

[Ast0rga]

How would you feel about getting to live and experience the generation where Garchomp becomes UUBL?

 

[Mega Breloom]

I admit that I don't understand why power creep is a problem.

In things like VGC when the rules of each season are made by Game Freak then it doesn't matter, you simply accept it, however here or any other place where the community can decide what can be allowed or what not then it becomes tricky. Powercreep while it is pretty straight foward and it is evident how it works (anybody can tell that Pao is better than Weavile for example), it is pretty subjetive what stuff within the powercreep is too much or what is fine. Greninja was Ubers in gen 6, but just OU on gen7 even if it got a good buff. Basically tell what powercreep is natural and what not is not as easy to tell, Wake for example looked as an uber mon with all those calcs but on paper isn't as bad.

How would you feel about getting to live and experience the generation where Garchomp becomes UUBL?

Game Freak could solve it at any moment by just giving it DD or a third good ability.

 

[FranziskaSkye]

just started doing my suspect reqs and thought I'd share some thoughts with some mons I've been using post-Urshifu and Volc ban.



I still don't know why this was the one voted to be suspected and not volcarona, but alas. Anyway this mon is very silly indeed and can very easily get carried away. There are limited ways of dealing with this. Examples being Haze , , Curse or infiltrator wisp and your own with a fighting resistant tera type. With most of these, you're just delaying it and forcing it out rather than actually dealing with it permanently, meaning its a constant threat in the back. Even if tera goes, whilst it will have more counterplay, it will still be a bit too nutty for the tier imo. Get this dog off my lawn.



Is there anything this mon can't do? The best set at the moment is almost certainly the no attack screens set. It's so reliable at getting them up that it usually gets screens up at least twice a game. Plus Curse is super nice for forcing out things your team will struggle with, like basically anything that boosts defence.
Although I do want this era of screens offence to stop, so I'd be ok with a light clay ban in outcome, just so can go back to its super offensive ways. Potent as ever, but I want it to change :(


I would adore this mon so much if it weren't for one little 90% accuracy statistic. It is certainly the best hazard setter in the tier right now, and can almost always do some solid damage against whatever the opponent has. Personally I like scarfed the most, although sash definitely has its merits too. But it turns out the edges do in fact cease, and it feels so bad missing, especially when it costs you your spikes. A+ Pokemon, I never want to use it again.


it's good.
what a surprise


This pokemon is next on the suspect list after for sure, either before or after Tera. It's so easy to get +2unburden proc and just sweep once or have been weakened the slightest bit. Also please, stop running Dire Claw on Unburden sets. It's just not good. Shadow Claw helps so much more for against , and with the lack of fairies your poison stab really doesn't do anything. On non-unburden sets its solid though. But I definitely would be content letting this idiot go.


So 's left cousin here can occasionally work. The main problem I find with it is that in so many matches it can just contribute utterly nothing. Your stored power is doing barely anything, even after 1 or 2 set up turns, and unless you've almost guarenteed a sweep with it, tera blast is also a nothing move. Technically functional and threatening, however I wouldn't call it good.


The overshadowed spiker. So sad to see it fall off like this. Between and , it isn't safely getting hazards up on anything. The plethora of strong poisons means that its ability is rarely effective, and it wants too many moves to be functional. Unless you're scared of 90% accuracy (i am) or sick of using as your spinner, I wouldn't use this.


I love this mon so much. Is it good or reliable? Absolutely not. It is however, extremely funny and is one of the few things keeping me sane during my laddering. It's nowhere near bulky enough, and is often not quite strong enough, however it has a 44% chance to make your brain happy, and that is more than worth it. Quite often I look in team preview and go "Oh I just win with if I just keep getting quick draws" and 44% of the time, it works every time. Incredibly funny mon, please use it.

 

[Ctann]

The thing with Volc, is that it's way more than a guessing game, it was a win condition. It just beats its checks if it has the right Tera, there is no viable version of Kingambit that beats Dondozo, Bulk Up Great Tusk (or even Ice Spinner Tusk), Tauros, or most bulky mon with Wisp. You guess wrong one time against Volc, that could be the whole game, meanwhile Kingambit has to repeatedly make the right predictions with Sucker Punch or else you just got hit with a massive debuff.

Look at Dragapult, a mon Kingambit SHOULD beat. If it has fire blast, or Kingambit is at low enough HP, you have to guess, or you're screwed. This is a mon with wisp AND substitute, the other bane of Kingambit's existence (don't even get me started on encore). Kingambit might lose to the stuff it should counter, meanwhile Volcs can sometimes outlast Toxapex.

There is no similar counterplay to Volc. You let it set up, and it has the right tera, and its over. You can't out play a boosted Volcorona, you lose the game if you don't have the specific counter to that set variant. And it's not exactly hard to set up either since Quiver raises its special bulk, it has Wisp, flame body, and it has recovery moves in the form of morning sun and giga drain.

With Gambit, you always have Dozo, and for now, Zam. Hell, you can tera Garg and use Iron Defence or Curse to shut out Gambit. You can reverse Tera into a fighting type as Gholdengo and hit him with Focus Blast or Make it Rain if he tera'd. There is no reverse Tera answer to Volcorona when it's set up, because it gains bulk and it's just too strong.

I'm not pretending that Volc was easy to play, or powerful out of the box like Gambit. I just see its ceiling as much higher than Gambit's mostly due to its speed and game swinging potential.

just some help with showing things:

scenario 1

dragapult just used meteor to OHKO something, you send out volc. Dragapult switched out, “go skeledirge”. All good, Volcarona used quiver dance. Your opponent is a noob 1140 ELO player, and you’ve already Peaked at 1310.

the next turn..

“Volcarona terastalised into the water type”, Volcarona used Terablast. Skeledirge lost 65%, skeledork used torch song, Volcarona lost like 13% of its HP.

now you’re hyped up… you just broke the noob dirge!

the next turn, Volcarona KOs skeledonk. Awesome, she’s at 87%. Game is in your favour.

The next turn, the opponent sends out garchomp, it survives the first hit but can’t KO back, getting you to sub 20%.

Finally the opponent revenges with priority. The stars aligned in your perfect matchup and your Volcarona traded for 2 Pokémon and positioned a setup against this noob 1140 player. Your ELO goes up 15.

scenario 2

Dragapult just used meteor to OHKO something. You’re proud of yourself, up 5-2 now, and you’re all the way at 1400 ELO now, this guys noob asf with his trash 1280 ELO team.

the opponent sends out kingambit, well.. you got a 70% tusk and 70% azumarill in the back and you’ve already seen the leftovers. So you decide to send out your cinderace first to burn it if it’s not Tera fire, and Aqua jet it later if it is.

the first 50/50

thinking that the guy will for sure use Tera if it has it in front of a cinderace. You use will o wisp so it can’t sucker punch you.

“kingambit is burned”, “kingambit used swords dance”.

well it didn’t sucker punch.. but at least it’s burned. But why the bell didn’t it Tera?!!?!? It might do it next turn… well let’s use pyro ball because it ain’t fire type that’s for sure.

The next 50/50

“Kingambit terastyled into a mugger Fucking water type” cinderace used pyro ball, it’s not so effective. Kingambit used swords dance.

the fuck?!? This noob at +4 with a water type gambit. Oh well… let’s u turn out of here.

the next 50/50

kingambit used sucker punch, cinderace lost 70%. Cinderace fainted

okay, time for tusk to revenge. You got bulk up to play the sucker punch game, and your Tera water to resist the iron head, which being a pro, you scouted out earlier. It has sucker and iron head for sure, so for sure the last move is kowtow cleave. Isn’t that what everyone who watches the YouTubers uses?

another 50/50

okay, go tusk of greatness! You scratch your head thinking if it’s worth using Tera water straight away with a bulk up. But then… why go Tera water with bulk up, it won’t sucker a fighting resist! Tho you don’t want to blow your EQ, because you already calculated it doesn’t KO. So you think to Tera water and bulk up.

great tusk Terastyled into a water type! Tusk used bulk up. Kingambit used low kick, tusk lost about 40%.

welp, didn’t expect this one… who the duck uses low kick and iron head!?!?? and now you’ll just EQ right, or do you bulk up again anticipating the sucker punch?!?!?

the next 50/50

well attacking is logical, or so you think, because you can’t risk it predicting your non attack and hitting you with another low kick. Azumaril in the back and can play rough with it now. So you use EQ

“kingambit used sucker punch”, “tusk fainted”

the final 50/50

the azumaril that was supposed to revenge the fire type gambit now has to roll the dice on speed EVs. This noob motherfucker needs to faint, it’s only on 22% and burned. But you can’t aquajet this noob who is somehow using Tera water when all the literature on Tera kingambit suggested flying/fire/fairy/dark/ghost/fighting/grass.

the fuck??! Isn’t Tera water supposed to be what the 2k ELO players use on Volcarona???

Anyway, your rage is high, but at least you’re running 199 speed adamant azumaril. Shame you don’t have encore like all the pros in the forums were suggesting, because you kinda needed ice spinner more for amoonguss.

the next turn begins…

“kingambit used iron head”
Azumaril lost 69% of its HP (yeah 1% left because this scenario is trolling you)
Azumaril flinched.

..

You type gg, close the window to forfeit, and queue for another game.

-

Somehow this noob 50/50’d their way through your team.

 

[Goodstyle]

just some help with showing things:

scenario 1

dragapult just used meteor to OHKO something, you send out volc. Dragapult switched out, “go skeledirge”. All good, Volcarona used quiver dance. Your opponent is a noob 1140 ELO player, and you’ve already Peaked at 1310.

the next turn..

“Volcarona terastalised into the water type”, Volcarona used Terablast. Skeledirge lost 65%, skeledork used torch song, Volcarona lost like 13% of its HP.

now you’re hyped up… you just broke the noob dirge!

the next turn, Volcarona KOs skeledonk. Awesome, she’s at 87%. Game is in your favour.

The next turn, the opponent sends out garchomp, it survives the first hit but can’t KO back, getting you to sub 20%.

Finally the opponent revenges with priority. The stars aligned in your perfect matchup and your Volcarona traded for 2 Pokémon and positioned a setup against this noob 1140 player. Your ELO goes up 15.

scenario 2

Dragapult just used meteor to OHKO something. You’re proud of yourself, up 5-2 now, and you’re all the way at 1400 ELO now, this guys noob asf with his trash 1280 ELO team.

the opponent sends out kingambit, well.. you got a 70% tusk and 70% azumarill in the back and you’ve already seen the leftovers. So you decide to send out your cinderace first to burn it if it’s not Tera fire, and Aqua jet it later if it is.

the first 50/50

thinking that the guy will for sure use Tera if it has it in front of a cinderace. You use will o wisp so it can’t sucker punch you.

“kingambit is burned”, “kingambit used swords dance”.

well it didn’t sucker punch.. but at least it’s burned. But why the bell didn’t it Tera?!!?!? It might do it next turn… well let’s use pyro ball because it ain’t fire type that’s for sure.

The next 50/50

“Kingambit terastyled into a mugger Fucking water type” cinderace used pyro ball, it’s not so effective. Kingambit used swords dance.

the fuck?!? This noob at +4 with a water type gambit. Oh well… let’s u turn out of here.

the next 50/50

kingambit used sucker punch, cinderace lost 70%. Cinderace fainted

okay, time for tusk to revenge. You got bulk up to play the sucker punch game, and your Tera water to resist the iron head, which being a pro, you scouted out earlier. It has sucker and iron head for sure, so for sure the last move is kowtow cleave. Isn’t that what everyone who watches the YouTubers uses?

another 50/50

okay, go tusk of greatness! You scratch your head thinking if it’s worth using Tera water straight away with a bulk up. But then… why go Tera water with bulk up, it won’t sucker a fighting resist! Tho you don’t want to blow your EQ, because you already calculated it doesn’t KO. So you think to Tera water and bulk up.

great tusk Terastyled into a water type! Tusk used bulk up. Kingambit used low kick, tusk lost about 40%.

welp, didn’t expect this one… who the duck uses low kick and iron head!?!?? and now you’ll just EQ right, or do you bulk up again anticipating the sucker punch?!?!?

the next 50/50

well attacking is logical, or so you think, because you can’t risk it predicting your non attack and hitting you with another low kick. Azumaril in the back and can play rough with it now. So you use EQ

“kingambit used sucker punch”, “tusk fainted”

the final 50/50

the azumaril that was supposed to revenge the fire type gambit now has to roll the dice on speed EVs. This noob motherfucker needs to faint, it’s only on 22% and burned. But you can’t aquajet this noob who is somehow using Tera water when all the literature on Tera kingambit suggested flying/fire/fairy/dark/ghost/fighting/grass.

the fuck??! Isn’t Tera water supposed to be what the 2k ELO players use on Volcarona???

Anyway, your rage is high, but at least you’re running 199 speed adamant azumaril. Shame you don’t have encore like all the pros in the forums were suggesting, because you kinda needed ice spinner more for amoonguss.

the next turn begins…

“kingambit used iron head”
Azumaril lost 69% of its HP (yeah 1% left because this scenario is trolling you)
Azumaril flinched.

..

You type gg, close the window to forfeit, and queue for another game.

-

Somehow this noob 50/50’d their way through your team.

This was a very fun read, and made me laugh, but it also illustrated a very important point that you're not considering: Kingambit is cool and fun. It's very good that Gamefreak designed a final boss pokemon, let's not dismiss their hard work by banning it!

 

[artificialdeath]

This was a very fun read, and made me laugh, but it also illustrated a very important point that you're not considering: Kingambit is cool and fun. It's very good that Gamefreak designed a final boss pokemon, let's not dismiss their hard work by banning it!

...and yet they didn't even bother to make the designated final boss trainer send it out last and use it as a "final boss" pokemon

 

[YubelVT]

only fairy resist on hyper offense that does something, people only started using it mostly after pineco posted his reqs team, personally I disagree with his choice of ceru because I think volc is much better anyways, but ceruledge is very niche and if you aren't ready for it it will cause gaping holes in your team

AV H-oodra goes hard tbh

 

[RoyalDispenser]

...and yet they didn't even bother to make the designated final boss trainer send it out last and use it as a "final boss" pokemon

Champion approaches

"Why DON'T I hear boss music?"

Champion that supposedly kicked everyone's ass is kneeling before you half way through the battle and barely trying

"Is the champion wintrading so they can retire?"

Champion's last and signature mon is the one that lays spikes when hit at the end of the fucking battle

"Guess I'm king of the world now."