Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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bro lost suspect reqs to stored power articuno and came to complain

Actual analysis: Stored Power is useless on 75% of the mons it's on, and fringe at best for another 15-20%. Seriously, go look at the mons that have it; it's a surprising amount because you never see it on most of them. It's been around since Gen 5 and has always been a gimmick, maybe a fringe strategy with it here and there, until this gen. Even then, still only good on, what, 3-4 mons? I wonder what could be allowing those Pokémon to get one more boost this gen :blobthinking:

It's not an inherently broken move like Last Respects or Shed Tail. The idea of banning it is honestly laughable.

Also just run a dark type 5head
What if we gave LR or shed tail to a bunch of shitmons tho. Would that make it less banworthy.
 
For everyone who wants tera preview or restrictions, here's my opinions on this matter. Ill also go over tera as a whole right now and my views as a pro-tera (im bored of laddering so enjoy this wall of text)
I'm sure my opinion will immediately be discounted here, as I am anti-Tera and therefore hate fun and am biased and only ever seeing the negative, and I'm not really addressing your entire post here, but I just don't think the example you've provided here proves your point. It basically goes "If I can see Kingambit is Tera Flying, then I have a 50/50 coin flip on whether I need to click Earthquake or Ice Spinner" if I have it right. Couple things with that.

1. This 50/50 coin flip always exists. It exists right now. Preview or no preview, if your opponent has not burned Tera and they send in Kingambit against Great Tusk, you're still taking that chance. After all, it could still be Tera Flying even if they don't tell you. All Tera Preview would do is confirm if that's really what's happening or if it's like Tera Fire or something else. You're saying that Tera Preview would create this 50/50, presumably unaware of the fact that this 50/50 is something that already exists and is a fundamental part of Tera, and that Tera Preview would (only sometimes) get rid of it.

2. You are demonstrating the point that Tera is volatile and makes games into guessing matches based on information you can't know. Congratulations! Welcome to the team! But seriously, you are just admitting here that this matchup is purely a coin flip based on playing chicken with your resistances because of Tera. It's a pretty specific example to be sure, but this is just the effect Tera has on matches. And...

3. You are demonstrating the point that Tera Preview would do nothing to curb this volatility innate to Tera. Right? Because with Tera Preview, this 50/50 exists, and I've shown that it still exists without it even though you can't see it. All Tera Preview would do (I think) is discourage niche Tera types meant to lure and punish checks, and reduce the mechanic to these coin flips based around whether you think the opponent is going to flip their resistances this turn or another.

If you can make it make sense to me in another way, I invite you to correct me, but you aren't swaying me like this.
 
What if we gave LR or shed tail to a bunch of shitmons tho. Would that make it less banworthy.
potentially! those two moves were banned because all users were oppressive in OU, so if something like, say, Cursola got Last Respects, or Arbok Shed Tail, and they proved to be balanced, the move could stay and the broken users could get banned. Or maybe not, and the moves go anyways, if it's still deemed to be fundamentally broken

that said, there's a lot of nuance between a near-signature move being given to very viable users of it, and a very well distributed move being given to a wide range of users in viability.

also, of the two pokémon to get banned (partially) for stored power stuff, Mage would gotten the hammer even without it, and Espathra would've been a large matchup fish that was debatably balanced but definitely at least somewhat uncompetitive
 
Can we get Stored Power on the next survey?
Given it's not broken, I don't see why we would. Really has bad potential for ripple effect down the tiering rung too.

What if we gave LR or shed tail to a bunch of shitmons tho. Would that make it less banworthy.
Last Respects being an offensive move I would say has the potential to be reasonable with certain abusers. For instance if they have some combination of horrible attack stats, bad coverage, low speed, etc. Shed Tail has pretty demonstrable potential to create broken game conditions that I don't think would be specific to any one abuser. Similar to how Arena Trap, Baton Pass, Shadow Tag, Evasion moves can create uncompetitive conditions across many users/abusers. None of these moves are remotely comparable to Stored Power though.
 
Bro Zama and Zac are literally sisters. Zac does something stupid (getting banned from Ubers last gen) and they both have to pay the price (now Zama’s OU)

They got nerfed cause Zacian-Crowned dominated later sword & shield VGC series and later BSS seasons once it got allowed, it getting banned from Smogon Ubers has nothing to do with it.

Anyways, i'm really gonna be interested in the next survey cause there's a lot of polarizing mons and opinions what to do next after Zamazenta-Hero stays in OU (deservedly imo). My personal feelings say that Tera should be revisited first before any potential suspects of mons (even tho Gambit could very well be overpowered even without Tera) since it keeps being the most polarizing element of this generation when it comes to competitive singles and the first suspect over half a year ago was controversial as is the way it was done. Really would like to see tho what the general communitys opinions are on what to do next or if we should do nothing for awhile (unlikely).
 
They got nerfed cause Zacian-Crowned dominated later sword & shield VGC series and later BSS seasons once it got allowed, it getting banned from Smogon Ubers has nothing to do with it.

Anyways, i'm really gonna be interested in the next survey cause there's a lot of polarizing mons and opinions what to do next after Zamazenta-Hero stays in OU (deservedly imo). My personal feelings say that Tera should be revisited first before any potential suspects of mons (even tho Gambit could very well be overpowered even without Tera) since it keeps being the most polarizing element of this generation when it comes to competitive singles and the first suspect over half a year ago was controversial as is the way it was done. Really would like to see tho what the general communitys opinions are on what to do next or if we should do nothing for awhile (unlikely).
Definitely let's look at Tera first. Gambit definitely has a whole lot more reasons it's busted, but that's a pretty big reason and I think it'd be healthier if we can talk about how strong it is without Tera.

And in the interest of not being the guy who only talks about Tera,
it just doesn't stop lol
This is objectively hilarious and I want Quick Claw to stay legal just for this.
 
potentially! those two moves were banned because all users were oppressive in OU, so if something like, say, Cursola got Last Respects, or Arbok Shed Tail, and they proved to be balanced, the move could stay and the broken users could get banned. Or maybe not, and the moves go anyways, if it's still deemed to be fundamentally broken

that said, there's a lot of nuance between a near-signature move being given to very viable users of it, and a very well distributed move being given to a wide range of users in viability.

also, of the two pokémon to get banned (partially) for stored power stuff, Mage would gotten the hammer even without it, and Espathra would've been a large matchup fish that was debatably balanced but definitely at least somewhat uncompetitive
There are 0 mons outside of unbelievably shitmons that aren't viable even in un-tiered that Shed Tail wouldn't be broken on and it's absurd that it lasted in the meta as long as it did.
 
There are 0 mons outside of unbelievably shitmons that aren't viable even in un-tiered that Shed Tail wouldn't be broken on and it's absurd that it lasted in the meta as long as it did.
There are 0 mons outside of some mons. That’s basically what you said.
 
Look, this Terastal discussion will always be just an absolute shitshow. I personally like it and think it adds a lot of creativity to the metagame, but at the same time, I can see how it could be considered a fun but poorly executed mechanic (kind of like Gen 9 itself). I personally despise the idea of banning generational mechanics just because we can (to me it's like trying to ban the blank tile in Scrabble), and would rather deal with the abusers. If anyone wants to defend Kingambit, Ursaluna or Garganacl in a hypothetical meta without Tera, speak now or forever hold your peace.

And as for trying to save Garchomp from UU... guys, just give up. At this point you might as well just add another lower tier.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
 
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
I also want Sneasler on there. Quick Claw, I honestly don't care, I don't see this being an actual thing that sticks around. Tera of course as well. And honestly it's about time we had an actual vote about Kingambit.
 
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
Whether Volc should be dropped back to OU, not in a suspect test, but just straight dropped by undoing the quick ban. Volc has a good matchup into some of the best OU mons and can check many of the (potentially) problematic ones.
 
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
Particularly I won't mind them, but if dire/quick claw get into it then static and flame body should be there just for consistency on the discourse about the "getting rid of the rng fish" elements.
 
Particularly I won't mind them, but if dire/quick claw get into it then static and flame body should be there just for consistency on the discourse about the "getting rid of the rng fish" elements.
Could you please explain what's consistent about lumping in Flame Body and Static with Dire Claw and Quick Claw? If it's just because they're all percent chance procs, you need to include way more than those two Abilities.
 
Particularly I won't mind them, but if dire/quick claw get into it then static and flame body should be there just for consistency on the discourse about the "getting rid of the rng fish" elements.
Static and Flame Body at least stay consistent and stick to Paralysis and Burn, respectively, so you know what you're getting yourself into when clicking a contact move vs them. Dire Claw not only has a much higher chance to proc something when factoring in the move's 50% effect chance on top of the 30% Poison Touch chance, but it's a dice roll whether the target is getting poisoned, paralyzed, or slept.

I agree with Return to Zero. If Static and Flame Body are gonna get included with Dire / Quick Claw, gotta go against other mechanics, too. Effect Spore, Serene Grace, Poison Point, and the plethora of other moves that have a chance to do something like Lava Plume, Thunder, etc. I'd rather discuss Dire Claw since it can choose 3 status conditions that the opponent has minimal counter-play against. It can be bringing in a Steel-type that could be hit with a Fighting-type move (unless you're Gholdengo), bringing in someone with Covert Cloak, or bringing in the bussin' Shield Dust mons.
 
So to change the subject a bit, what would you guys like to see being asked in the next community survey?

To be honest I would like to see something about Sneasler / Dire Claw and Quick Claw.
Kingambit is my #1, but I would also like to see discussion of Tera Preview, Quick Claw, and -- admittedly, this is a shot in the dark -- the start of a discussion on Hazards.

I don't even know what that might look like, but the current state of removal is absolutely dire, and H. Samurott has only compounded the issue. Unless DLC brings wide-spread hazard removal, Great Tusk seems like he will be (justifiably!) on most of the teams from here until Gen10.

e: And, I mean, that's fine. It's certainly playable. But the 6x HDB solution that stall teams are winding up with feels like a mockery of a healthy tier.
 
Hazards aren't a problem imo, it helps with progress and we've been hazard stacking since gen 2.

Also not convinced Dire Claw is all that big of an issue, Sneasler finds it quite difficult to find opportunities to click it and due to it's frailty it almost never gets to click it more than twice.

I would like to see Valiant, Pult, Garg, Ursa and Gambit on the next survey, not necessarily convinced they're all broken but those 5 are the closest to being broken mons in the tier rn imo.

Also free the match up moth!
 
if we're really going to be banning quick claw, we should also look at scald (if it comes back in a major capacity) and serene grace (if jirachi and/or togekiss return). or are we only going to ban rng stuff that people don't actually use, to pay lip service to the anti-rng crowd while changing virtually nothing at all? is that the gambit?
 
Could you please explain what's consistent about lumping in Flame Body and Static with Dire Claw and Quick Claw? If it's just because they're all percent chance procs, you need to include way more than those two Abilities.
Static and Flame Body at least stay consistent and stick to Paralysis and Burn, respectively, so you know what you're getting yourself into when clicking a contact move vs them. Dire Claw not only has a much higher chance to proc something when factoring in the move's 50% effect chance on top of the 30% Poison Touch chance, but it's a dice roll whether the target is getting poisoned, paralyzed, or slept.

I agree with Return to Zero. If Static and Flame Body are gonna get included with Dire / Quick Claw, gotta go against other mechanics, too. Effect Spore, Serene Grace, Poison Point, and the plethora of other moves that have a chance to do something like Lava Plume, Thunder, etc. I'd rather discuss Dire Claw since it can choose 3 status conditions that the opponent has minimal counter-play against. It can be bringing in a Steel-type that could be hit with a Fighting-type move (unless you're Gholdengo), bringing in someone with Covert Cloak, or bringing in the bussin' Shield Dust mons.
Flame body and static are the same as dire claw but just in the opposite interaction getting hit instead of you hitting the opponent while praying for the proc, there are not skill behind that, just fish for the proc. Personally I don't think those things need to he banned since both have ways to get around them Vengeance already quoted what could be done about dire claw and for the other two is avoiding using contact moves, both options are avaliable for players on teambuilding and during the matches so I don't get why would dire claw be considered uncompetitive but those abilities not. In the end of the day the 50% of dire claw gets reduced to around 34% of rolling a strong status because regular poison sucks, which is almost the same as the other abilities.
 
Kingambit is my #1, but I would also like to see discussion of Tera Preview, Quick Claw, and -- admittedly, this is a shot in the dark -- the start of a discussion on Hazards.

I don't even know what that might look like, but the current state of removal is absolutely dire, and H. Samurott has only compounded the issue. Unless DLC brings wide-spread hazard removal, Great Tusk seems like he will be (justifiably!) on most of the teams from here until Gen10.

e: And, I mean, that's fine. It's certainly playable. But the 6x HDB solution that stall teams are winding up with feels like a mockery of a healthy tier.
Maybe a hot take, but the most expedient solution to hazards (if it is indeed a problem) is nuking Gholdengo. Good As Gold is a stupid Ability that unlike LR and ST was given to a Pokemon with an excellent stat spread, fantastic typing (that also conveniently blocks the new Rapid Spin clone), and deep and abusable movepool. I don't think Gholdengo is itself a problem except when it comes to hazard removal, though.
 
Maybe a hot take, but the most expedient solution to hazards (if it is indeed a problem) is nuking Gholdengo. Good As Gold is a stupid Ability that unlike LR and ST was given to a Pokemon with an excellent stat spread, fantastic typing (that also conveniently blocks the new Rapid Spin clone), and deep and abusable movepool. I don't think Gholdengo is itself a problem except when it comes to hazard removal, though.
In practice the only thing that stops Gholdengo is Corviknight defog, if you remove it the only thing that changes is that and not all the teams can afford to run it, Tusk and other spiners still get blocked by other ghosts in the tier and Corviknight still can't defog infront some setters like Samurrot or Meowscarada who run taunt often. The issue is the distribution of the options, not Gholdengo itself. Most of the Tusks nowadays run jolly and they beat Gholdengo, but that not makes hazards spam less effective.
 
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