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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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kingambit had been seen as problematic by many people prior to home, lol. it was clearly warping the metagame, and had many viable sets to out-do its supposed, very limited, checks (with the aid of tera, of course). this is just bad faith. supreme overlord is also one of the most vile abilities in terms of design the game has ever seen. it created crazy double-binds often if you were on the receiving end of a team featuring gambit, which was a very substantial portion of them, especially at the end of the meta.
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i am begging and screaming for anti-tera people to make arguments that aren’t tangential to tera itself, rather than attacking the mechanic.
saying stuff like “how many mons need to be banned before you realise tera is the problem” is, in no way, an argument for banning tera. it is not going to convince anyone on the opposing side, at all. they can just gigachad it up & post valid (albeit not sound) arguments in response, such as “tera is fine, it is simply these pokemon that abuse the mechanic to an overbearing degree”.
Well shit i fully expected shifu but not really volc
Volcarona should be suspect tested.
This Pokémon has already been part of the tier since day 1, and regardless of whether or not it's actually overpowered, it shouldn't have been quickbanned this far in just because we're quickbanning the Pokémon that just got dropped in to break the meta in half.
It's a fantastic abuser of Terastallization, obviously, but it's been a fantastic abuser of the mechanic for the entire generation thus far. It shouldn't be on the same chopping block as Ursh-Rapid/Regieleki/both Zamazenta forms just because they specifically walked in and wrecked shop - especially since many have been voicing concerns for months that Terastallization itself should be revisited.
Surprised to not see Zama-Hero go in its place, too - that guy feels way more oppressive than even Rapid-Strike right now. It can't run the IDBP set as effectively as Crowned Shield but the item slot is super helpful for the AoA sets. Hope some kind of tiering action finds it soon.
This Pokémon has already been part of the tier since day 1, and regardless of whether or not it's actually overpowered, it shouldn't have been quickbanned this far in just because we're quickbanning the Pokémon that just got dropped in to break the meta in half.
It's a fantastic abuser of Terastallization, obviously, but it's been a fantastic abuser of the mechanic for the entire generation thus far. It shouldn't be on the same chopping block as Ursh-Rapid/Regieleki/both Zamazenta forms just because they specifically walked in and wrecked shop - especially since many have been voicing concerns for months that Terastallization itself should be revisited.
Surprised to not see Zama-Hero go in its place, too - that guy feels way more oppressive than even Rapid-Strike right now. It can't run the IDBP set as effectively as Crowned Shield but the item slot is super helpful for the AoA sets. Hope some kind of tiering action finds it soon.
I think this is the root of the issue. I think a Volcarona suspect would be less... spicy? I guess? than a quick ban on a day one Pokémon facing a quick ban.
Also I elect Safety Dance for its song.
I am not opposed to an eventual retest because of this fact, but I think looking into Tera may be the real play here, which would naturally free Volc after
Sure, this is a fair criticism, but my main argument was that Volc has to Tera basically every match because every decent team will carry one of these counters. A mon that eats your Tera is a pretty big downside imo. Also:
+1 252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Volc can’t break Unaware Clod at all, no matter Tera it is. You want to cover all your bases, just run this thing.
I think you‘re overstating Volc‘s set diversity as well, since every set has QD+Fiery Dance. Realistically it’s then 1-2 coverage moves, one of which is usually ground Tera Blast, and then Roost on bulky sets. That’s not much diversity compared to Tusk or even something like Zapdos. What 5 viable Tera types? I count 3, Ground, Water and Grass.
Still though, the main point I was trying to make is that Volc eats your Tera.
Spice isn't really my concern though, and I am biased towards the idea that OU cannot have a healthy existence with both Volcarona and Terastallization. My issue is that Volcarona is being lumped in with Pokémon that should be quickbanned as the meta settles and progresses post-transfers and I think suspecting Volcarona rather than quickbanning it would have been the right call.
Of course, it's just the principle of the thing for me since Volcarona's already been here so my belief was that Volc should have been suspected rather than quickbanned. I don't deny that it's probably broken lol, just doesn't sit fully right with me personally.
It hopefully won't come as much of a surprise to you that the suspect order is determined by the council
To be honest, from my personal point of view, this was almost the exact opposite of what would I have done,
1) Zama should have gotten qb because he fucking walls your entire tier for free, and you literally can't do shit against him, with plenty mons to set up and winning
2) Suspect urshifu because SD + Tera + Pads/Punching Glove is a really great upgrade, but not too overbearing imo
3) volc no action because It's basically just cheese and shit
So uh, since nothing went according to plan, ill just leave this video of a cute happy bunny I found on YouTube
1) Zama should have gotten qb because he fucking walls your entire tier for free, and you literally can't do shit against him, with plenty mons to set up and winning
2) Suspect urshifu because SD + Tera + Pads/Punching Glove is a really great upgrade, but not too overbearing imo
3) volc no action because It's basically just cheese and shit
So uh, since nothing went according to plan, ill just leave this video of a cute happy bunny I found on YouTube
none of those pokémon you listed are even counters, as they all lose to some form of viable volcarona set. furthermore, the issue you fail to address is the necessary resource dedication in terms of mons one would have to engage in to actually cover all of volcarona’s sets.
i mean, you’re barely avoiding a 2hko with leftovers in a spikes-infested metagame in that calc, & sub tera grass sits on clod & stalls out its recovery. very far from “covering all your bases” when one layer of the easiest hazard to get up ever ruins the matchup, and volc has a viable set that uses clod as set-up bait. even if this argument WAS sound, “just use clod” doesn’t seem at all problematic to you?
sub+tera grass, bulky morning sun+2 attacks, bulky morning sun+wisp, offensive qd+3 attacks.
rock, water, grass, ground, ghost.
i’d say “eating your tera” when the only time you will tera volc if is it wins on the spot is nowhere near the “drawback” you make it out to be.
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Thank you for banning the moth who has been sweeping my teams for 10 years straight
It seems like you maybe aren't aware of just how many tera types Volc is capable of wielding which gives it ridiculous versatility and possibilities. And thanks for this, it was more capable than nearly anything of picking and choosing what checks it beats. As far as Clod goes, yeah it can wall it, but sets like sub tera grass Volc are able to PP stall it.
I also don't like this "forced to eat tera" argument that gets used for lots of dominant pokemon that comes up, when the result of that tera usage is more often than not highly game changing or majorly impactful. In Volc's case it doesn't matter. The upside is far bigger than any downside.
I am just going to say this rn. Comments like this are why these toxic ass arguments from both sides start. We get it, you want tera to be banned (even I don't believe it's unproblematic. While I do like Tera, if it needs to go, it needs to go). However, this has crossed over to blatantly being a fucking douchebag for no reason. You want people to have respectful disagreements, yet this is one of the first things you post in response to Volc being banned. There is not going to be any discussion when you're already coming in rude and arrogant. This is a constant reason to why these discussions never go well. Someone on either side has to be snarky and stir the pot in order to support their side. You want a healthy metagame, start by trying to have a healthy discussion.
TL;DR, being rude shockingly doesn't help in trying to have a level headed and productive discussion.
I do not see any wide-reaching support for banning Volcarona. It definitely should have been suspect tested before the quickban. And considering some of the previous statements from certain members of the OU council cough Finch cough, this quickban FEELS heavily biased. Definitely not a fan.
Volcarona had survey support prior to HOME and then despite not being included in the post-HOME survey (was only for emergency bans), it got an unprecedented amount of write-in support.
Four council members made lengthy posts about their stance on it prior to the vote and a fifth has since. Accusing me of being corrupt when I literally just held the vote and voted with my metagame thoughts is ridiculous.
You can disagree with the ban as many have, but this is not it.
Again, how is saying ppl that like tera can't say anything about a mon being banned due to tera "toxic, rude" etc?
If I asked you yesterday, would you rather ban Tera or Volc you would have said Volc.
So... idgi...
Am I wrong by assuming this of any pro-tera player?
Ppl are going to come here to complain about a QB on a mon that they did not ask for survey feedback, nor had a suspect.
So before they get in here to complain, they should know that if they're pro-tera, this is just the logical conclusion of a tera meta.
Trying to disingenuously paint this logic as toxic and getting upset about it doesn't change the fact most, if not all, pro tera players will always pick losing mons over losing tera.
If you want to complain about the situation surrounding the ban fine, but it wouldn't have passed a suspect anyway because tera breaks it.
Just because I said something you don't like, doesn't inherently mean its toxic. You gotta learn that sooner or later.
sure it can... if its tera grass + sub ur hitting a brick wall with it since you do not do enough damage to even dent the sub and giga drain just stalls you out of earthquake PP since you do such minimal damage to it... you just lose.. also a tera psychic high role really does nuke clodsire so you dont cover everything esp if u arent running boots or have taken some chip damage then its not really reliable. You can just pair it with smth such as hatt, slowking,
It’s toxic statements like this that prevents healthy discussion and causes more people to lurk. I myself am on the side of wanting Tera to either be banned or at minimum have some form of restriction, but in no way do I want my opposition to feel hesitant to speak their mind. This ain’t right.
I’d like to see a Tera suspect soon, not just to see the playerbase’s general opinion on the mechanic, but for this toxic discourse to just end already. It’s tiring to sift through, ngl
there is, in my eyes, no sound argument against the banning of volcarona. what we are talking about here is a pokémon that is conventionally overpowered, as in, offers too great of an advantage to the user compared to the opponent, & the metagame as a whole being unable to account for it; whilst also being uncompetitive due to its insane set variety, all of which have varying answers, which would require such dedication in the builder as to make it infeasible to reasonably & in a proportionate manner prepare in the builder for them, & in-battle determine which one it is, & respond appropriately.
there are no scarfers that can revenge kill its sets reliably, there are no defensive measures that can counter it reliably, & there are no means of preventing setup reliably, and once it is setup, the aforementioned factors make it broken. these are all the trademarks of previously overwhelming/uncompetitive elements we have seen (think mega salamence, or king’s rock, etc.,).
yes, at the root of this, in my opinion, is tera, but this is currently what we have to work with.
there are no scarfers that can revenge kill its sets reliably, there are no defensive measures that can counter it reliably, & there are no means of preventing setup reliably, and once it is setup, the aforementioned factors make it broken. these are all the trademarks of previously overwhelming/uncompetitive elements we have seen (think mega salamence, or king’s rock, etc.,).
yes, at the root of this, in my opinion, is tera, but this is currently what we have to work with.
While I'm still shocked that Zamazenta Hero remains, I totally agree with Volcarona being banned in a Tera metagame, considering that the Tera situation won't change any time soon, despite the vast support. I still consider another round of radar before suspects, due many QBs were from things that shouldn't even have gone back to OU.
But following the precedent of the last round of QB, it would be interesting to lock this topic for 12-24h to avoid posts full of impulsiveness.
But following the precedent of the last round of QB, it would be interesting to lock this topic for 12-24h to avoid posts full of impulsiveness.
I didn't say you were corrupt. I'm just saying it seems quite strange that between the previous suspect test vote on Volc going from 0-9 no action to a 7-2 quickban, your publicly well-known disaproval for Volcarona, as well as my own personal searches through the community, I don't see many people agreeing with this decision. I don't think it's "Corruption" as you stated; I just think it sets a poor precedent for the OU council's reflection of the community as a whole. Since Volcarona did get an "unprecedented amount of write-in support," wouldn't it be better for it to be included on a survey or suspect test? Quickbanning Volcarona due to "Write-Ins" when it was not included on the survey feels like jumping the gun on the process.
I’d love to have had time to include Volc in a survey, but over the last two weeks we had a sudden release into a marathon that included four votes, two radars, personnel changes, hundreds of posts, and dozens of hours spent that meant fitting anything further in impossible.
I even made a PR thread today about improving processes around sudden releases, since that’s what’s really unprecedented here.
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