Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Lectrys said:
On Enamorus being completely budget Iron Valiant, you're underestimating how valuable a Ground immunity is to both teambuilding and switching Enamorus in:

252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Enamorus: 236-278 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You mispredict on pivoting Enamorus in, at least she survives stuff from Ground-types.

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Enamorus: 264-312 (91.3 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

This is the riskier Ground-type to switch into, but at least you can make Lando-T quake a little.


Which is why you don't lead with Samurott-H unless you really think the single layer of Spikes matters. And man have Spikes never felt weaker in OU right now. Samurott-H has a great defensive typing when it comes to partnering with Fairies or at least Enamorus, and I take advantage of that by having Samurott-H switch in on lured-in opportunities like Heatran, Slowking-G, Skeledirge, and Gholdengo. Unless Gholdengo is packing Focus Blast (or Thunderbolt) and getting the predict right, Samurott-H survives at least one hit from all of them and forces them out or blows them up (Heatran forces the Razor Shell). Unlike Greninja, Samurott-H gets actual strong priority and role compresses laying convenient entry hazards and forcing out Ghosts at the same time. I actually don't miss having a Stealth Rock setter when I have Samurott-H.


Let's see if it does so we can try Electric resists instead of immunities against Regieleki (note that Transistor uses the old multiplier and Electric Terrain simulates new Transistor):

:Baxcalibur:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 170-201 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur in Electric Terrain: 148-174 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 186-219 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

Baxcalibur was a decent Regieleki check, but this is starting to get into switch-in-twice territory.

:Goodra-Hisui:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 106-126 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 38.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui in Electric Terrain: 92-108 (25.3 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

OK, this one was terrible for Regieleki from the start. Goodra-H is even neutral to or resists all kinds of Tera Blasts to boot!

:Dragonite:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 151-178 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Electric Terrain: 131-154 (40.5 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now consider Dragonite slipping out of OHKO range when Multiscale is chipped off.

:Roaring Moon:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon: 149-176 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon in Electric Terrain: 129-153 (36.7 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The Roaring Moon switch-in margins get more comfortable.

:Hydreigon:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 165-194 (50.7 - 59.6%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Electric Terrain: 142-168 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(252 SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Regieleki: 332-392 (110.2 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Hydreigon can now switch in just that little bit more often.

:Kingambit:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 346-408 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit in Electric Terrain: 300-354 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 313-370 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
(252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Regieleki: 322-381 (106.9 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

I don't like needing 4 KOed allies to OHKO Regieleki with Sucker Punch without Black Glasses, but dodging the OHKO entirely exactly once with the new Transistor is clutch.

...It's definitely looking possible that the nerf to Transistor reduces the need to switch in a Ground-type into Regieleki just enough.
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I still say keep Regieleki out of OU for at least the time being, especially since most of those mons are weak to Ice so they're a mispredict away from death, but this is excellent analysis and a sign that it's at least worth a (brief) look once things settle down.

---

What I'd ban: Magearna, and keep a very close eye on Chien-Pao. The rest of the 'broken' mons are exploiting the meta that Magearna creates (and Ursaluna exploits Magearna's ability to set Trick Room), and without that, might lose just enough to be manageable.

What I expect: Magearna, Chien-Pao, Zama-C, with a close eye kept on Zama-H and Ursaluna.
 
Neosonic97 said:
But then Zamazenta can just slot in Stone Edge, which will mean any sort of chip (i.e. Entry Hazards, which you're taking damage from because you're giving up HDB to run Covert Cloak) will let Zamazenta beat Skeledirge (and if rocks are up Skeledirge can occasionally lose to Crunch Zamazenta anyway). And it's honestly not that bad a move on Zamazenta- yes, you lose hard to Gholdengo, but Gholdengo is widely used to check a slew of other threats isn't it?
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Personally, I prefer Sub + Lefties on my Dirge over Slack + HDB. But that's because I'm running a custom Sub 3 Attacks set instead of the typical Slack Off, Wisp Hex set.
 
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Me waiting for the bans
 
The2009Zapdos said:
BRUUUH
a 0.2x decrease in power makes it an -ate ability with a different name. How did that affect Mega Salamence eh?
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To be fair, the 1.3 —> 1.2 areilate nerf was a pretty sizable nerf to salamemce, and it’s similar to the regieleki nerf I’m terms of power loss

1.3*1.5 =0.866
1.2/1.3 = 0.92
 
ant4456 said:
I think older heads in the community take for granted the idea that everyone agrees with the core tenants of Smogon's old policy. I think over time more and more people are questioning it, and I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next generation or two, there is an even bigger divide in how Smogon should be managed.

There are definitely people who agree with a lot of what Smogon stands for, and just parts of it they think are pretty poor decisions being held up. Smogon Policy is often presented in a "Because I said so" Mom way to people who don't agree with things. Some are experienced, probably a lot are new to the game, no doubt, but I've seen more and more of it each year in my experience.

If you think Dire Claw should be banned and not Sneasler, being told "Because Policy Says So" is going to frustrate, because as more people who weren't there during the original debates start playing the game, growing up with it, and follow it; they aren't all going to see it as valid.

"Well, why can't we just do that? Why would we use this old notion and apply it rigidly?"

From a younger player's perspective, and honestly in some cases in the last few years, my perspective, is that a lot of people will aggressively advocate for an actively worse game in order to stay in line with what people that they've never met said makes sense. Indefensible, mind you. Many would say I argue for a worse game with Tera, but that is debatable; there are things that honestly are not that debatable.

Smogon's Policy Review threads are full of this IMO. For instance, the recentish thread about Quick Claw in Gen 4 OU. This is an item that actively can only make the game worse, and yet some would criticize the thread's creation at this vague notion of "being too ban happy", and "there will always be luck-based elements."

At a more personal level, I've been disillusioned with Smogon Policy since the King's Rock arguments in SWSH, and similar Veil ability discussions. A lot of why I've stayed silent on this thread and not been playing as much is simply: I find myself agreeing less and less with the core of Smogon philosophy at handling a metagame.

To be clear, none of this is the council's fault. They have to deal with the cards they are given, but I feel that the game is constantly running into walls to get the most obvious changes done due to policy that most people I know don't agree with.

When I've seen people say similar things to the above, I've seen a sentiment of: "Well, if you don't like that, just make competition!" Well, no. 99.99% of people cannot do the things Smogon do. It's old enough, it's famous in the community, no grassroots competition has a chance to succeed. So if your response to someone not liking a core of how Smogon has cemented itself is, "lol, just don't play it;" truth is most people don't really have a choice.

If I want a decent 6v6 metagame using new Pokemon with a website that mandates things. matchmakes for me, and has a lot of other extras; I basically have to play Smogon.

I enjoy the process, generally like the game, and I like the council and the people who play it, mind you. I'm not gonna act like there is a gun to my head forcing me to play Smogon and interact with it, but I just find myself staying quiet as of late because any time I see questioning of these old policies it seems to get a decent bit of ridicule, and I generally agree with said questioning. Appealing to an authority of old nerds on the internet is never going to come across to me as justifying something as good tiering policy, it's just the best tiering policy we can accomplish.

So, uh, to wrap this back around?: Things like this probably aren't going to stop, probably never will, even if the policy changed massively it would only be a baker's dozen years or less until that would be criticized. I love Smogon, but feel that the things that would make it better are simply impossible/out of most people's hands; and importantly, it feels like the council's hands are generally tied more and more as of late. I love the transparency but what that transparency has revealed in my eyes if a bureaucratic nightmare, where any decision outside of a basic "ban this Pokemon" has to go through way too much, even if most people want something done. And that the baked in policy is responsible for a lot of it.
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You wrote (on a Friday afternoon, no less) a passionate essay about an as-of-yet undecided policy matter pertaining to a competitive interpretation of a children's game. Have some self-awareness. We all are nerds here.

SV with its numerous broken moves, significant power creep, and Terastal runs the risk of heading the same way as BW if not managed correctly (that is, to, say, insulated from the whims of what every last person on the internet wants when half of them will just quit when things don't go their way anyway.)

From a younger player's perspective, and honestly in some cases in the last few years, my perspective, is that a lot of people will aggressively advocate for an actively worse game in order to stay in line with what people that they've never met said makes sense.
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And yet you insist on playing with these people because of your claim that it is impossible to establish an alternative. I am sure many if not even most players in this community have some sort of grievance relating to a tiering action or restriction they view(ed) as unjustified. But that's part of community. We come together to play under a broadly accepted set of rules that not everybody (if anybody) likes because they are relatively straightforward even if they are not necessarily the most fun, an approach which has been validated by the failure of countless leagues, private servers, and alternative metas to make it past meme status (e.g. NatDex and AG.) If people are frustrated and feel as if their voices aren't being heard (which I find hard to believe given the amount of engagement Finch does – unthinkable back in BW) they really should consider creating that space for themselves. It's not as if Smogon is/was the only competitive community or Showdown was the first or only simulator. Alternatives have existed and remain possible. You play Smogon today because the decisions that were made in the past helped grow and sustain it so that it would be a viable thing for you to eventually participate in.

Rules, bylines, restrictions, etc. always work better when simple. This isn't a Smogon thing. It's just real life. What this means is that there'll be casualties (e.g. Sneasler, if/when its time does come) and will continue to be so as long as GF continues pumping out overtorqued concepts that break the balance of their own games. FWIW I think OU's been unplayable all generation and don't believe for a second that UU's BW-esque surge in popularity has nothing to do with the futility of managing a Terastal-enabled tier at this power level. My having that opinion does not call for me belittling other people. Get a grip.
 
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G-Luke said:
If Tera is banned even if Transistor is buffed back to 1.5 it's instantly freed lool.
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Kinda like Shedinja. IF it was allowed, it'd probably be OU because a) Shed Tail is banned and b) it lacks things like Secret Power and Poltergeist for Rocky Helmet

At the same time, that's Shedinja. It ain't coming back in gen 9. Tera makes things crazy strong
 
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 444-524 (88 - 103.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 372-440 (73.8 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina: 402-474 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 228-270 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 168-200 (33.3 - 39.7%) -- 21.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

The calcs speak for themselves why does anyone want giratina in OU
 
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why does current ou council want to waste their time so much not banning clearly broken (and in the case of zamazentas and chien pao, self inflicted errors by the council) that theyre going to just ban in a week anyways

what is the point?

and why is a member just outright abstaining on every vote when multiple are potentially swayed by their vote.

come on now
 
Chien-Pao won't last long at this rate. Meanwhile kind of surprised Sneasler is just sort of sitting in the middle of the threshold (regardless of if the mon or move is banned, the move alone is what I emphasize as the "why").

Curious to see how the subsequent Meta goes. Magearna being removed puts Zama and Chien-Pao on nice footing with a major bulky resist to their movesets gone. Wonder how removing a major Steel type will affect the standing of Hero vs Crowned since this makes Z-C the new Bulky-Offensive Steel (by which I mean Bulky and attacker, it's still fast of course), but with a less effective match-up into SS Chien-Pao, so Hero's still preferred if you expect Shield dog to check Sword cat.
 
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