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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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try by relearning moves... or changing Rotom back to normal and putting on Washtom again
Yeah I definitely wasn't joking at all. Can't wait to use gen 2 Snorlax and make it a Fairy type.
The chances of Tera actually being banned are slim, but not none.
I don't think we should accept how poorly this meta is being rated by it's most active players and we should explore all possibilities.
1) Literally anything that doesn't let mons change typing at will. It feels like an Other Meta like Hackmons or STABmons. It doesn't feel real.
2) Tran was just an example. Tera is actively making you worse at mons, not better. Instead of being forced to play smarter and position yourself better, you can skip that step and just click a button. It's not going to add anything to your skill level if you're interested in playing the next generation and beyond.
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Also, just for the record, anything that gives a player an unearned free turn in Singles is broken.
I don't share the same nostalgia for terrible aspects of previous metas that literally take the game down a notch when it comes to being a competitive game. Gen 6 is an amazing gen held back by terrible para mechanics.
Sleep, Frz, Para and Confusion should be removed from the game, but I obviously see what that's asking a lot.
I mean, I don't really, since the entire "You have to be able to recreate it on cart" goes out the window when you think for 2 seconds about the sleep clause.
If 2 ppl are playing by Smogon 6v6 Singles OU rules, and someone accidentally puts a 2nd mon to sleep, either by ability, move, or forgetfulness, then that game is no longer valid in any sense.
No official Smogon tour takes place on cart and those games would not count.
Our dogmatic adherence to the "must be recreated on cart" rule is actively making this more of a kid's game than a good game.
But that's another conversation lol.
Im making a team with Zamazenta - C before it gets banned, what mons go well with Zamazenta? I havent ever used it and would appreciate some advice
somethingsomething SQSA
Pairs well with Screens (so screens setting pult, volc, goltres, other sweepers) or can be used on balance with wish support (stail pex other defensive mons)
I never have been a fan of the "well we have always done it this way so lets continue to stick to it" mentality. It's clear GF is going to continue to make broken signature moves, and this one in particular in uncompetitive. As we all learned the scientific method, why dont we manipulate the independent variable, take away Dire Claw, and see if the mon is still broken. It is obviously RNG-based and every other comment under Finch's tweets are basically begging to ban Dire Claw instead if it comes down to banning Sneasler. Not sure how banning the sole pokemon that has an uncompetitive move is the most reasonable here.
Zama-C? Anything except hard stall.
That's not sarcasm, it's a really self-contained mon that can fit onto most teams. If you want to build around it, rather than just include it, anything that buys it free turns to set up is ideal, so either screens or teammates with pivoting abilities.
Funny how you actually explain why you think tera is broken while these guys just say tera is fun stall bad! (Unfortunately for them fat-stall is still quite good in gen 9) And laugh react you while calling you salty, who is the real salty one out here LOL
When a guy is calling for four different status conditions to be banned outright, he's actively looking for Haha emotes.
Once more Garance comes after the war but I wrote it and wanted to share my thoughts.
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
I answered 7 because even if the metagame is a bit broken, I'm enjoying playing new toys, playing the Zamas, trying to find counters to some broken mons, the meta still needs a lot of changes BUT I feel it enjoyable now without Eleki and Mag.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
I answred 6 because the metagame is quite unstable now and some pokemon seems overwhelming even if I think time will help us see if some pokemon can emmerge as great counters of the actual big threats.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Chien-Pao?
Pao is clearly too much to handle for the tier, so I gave a 4. I didn't gave the 5 because of Urshifu, Tauros and the Zamas. I feel like we have more answers now than before, but at the same time, as some of the council leaders have mentionned before, we now have a lot of SD+Tera and this is unpredictable. If you have Sacred Sword, Zama-Crowned is destroyed, if you have Tera (Flying, Psychic, Fairy, whatever you want) you will destroy Urshifu/Tauros and Zama-H on switch too.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Zamazenta-Hero?
I voted 4 once more. Since this is just the better Zama imo (things may have been different since Mag ban), faster and able to carry an item, I think this one is really overwhelming too.
As much as Pao is in the tier, this thing is a great addition, if Pao leaves, then this need to leave too. While the Crowned always have the same set, like Iron Defense, BP, Crunch and a last random move, Zama-hero is quite unpredictable and really threatening.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Zamazenta-Crowned
Ok don't hate me for that but I voted 3 (because 3.5 is not possible lol). Zama-C is not "completely fine" but he is fine imo. The steel type is appreciated, but you really lack of power sometimes, and you need to set-up to be threatening. Yes, this can sweep all non-prepared teams... but like Volcarona, Iron Valliant or Roaring Moon...
This mon is an awesome addition to the tier and should stay at least for a moment to see how he is doing in a stable metagame.
I saw some scarf landos using Sandsear Storm and Earthquake, to be able to hit Zama even when he is full boosted in Def. There is a lot of Corviknight Rocky Helmet and with Teras Fairy/Ghost, a lot of people are being original to beat this. It can seems too much for some of you and I understand but I really want more time to think about this one.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Sneasler?
If I could I would have voted 4.5, but I can't so I decided to vote 5. This mon is one of the best addition at the same time he is one of the worst nightmare GF have ever created.
A lot of Fake Out + Toxic Touch sets are played, but the real nightmare is the Unburden + Terrain set, with Tera Fly Acrobatics. This set is monstruous and is so good. Some mons like Gholdengo, Corviknight etc are seen more than ever because of him, but the truth is, this mon would have been totally fine without Dire Claw.
The problem is Dire Claw. Should we ban this instead of the mon ? No. Unlike Last Respects, this is a signature move, totally broken but completely associated to Sneasler.
This thing can burn, paralyse or put asleep someone, and some evil people are playing this with Toxic Touch to be sure to hit one of the 4 statuts. The amount of games I won by clicking this on pokemon resisting to this move is insane.
As long as Dire Claw will be a broken brainless move, this thing should be banned.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Urshifu-Rapid-Strike?
I voted 2, this thing is good but totally fine. Most of the time, it can't hit Water Absorb Clodsire, Amoonguss, Azumarill, Toxapex, Slowbrothers... a lot of mons like Corviknight are Rocky Helmet, there are faster mons who can RK him...
This thing is awesome but not as broken as all the others mons listed before. We should not focus him atm.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ursaluna?
I voted 4 because I think this thing is overwelming. It's so bulky, make Trick Room a good thing, can OHKO almost everything he wants and force Air Balloon Gholdengos. But even with that, people are anticipating, clicking Fire Punch and Bye Bye Gholdengo.
Yes, the loss of Magearna hits him, but Cress/Hatterene + Ursaluna is pretty insane. Even without TR, this thing is monstruous and will make 1 KO or 2 minimum even if you are playing badly.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Light Clay?
I voted 1. Screens are good since so many time now, it's sometimes too hard to handle for lower tiers, but in OU ? Meh. Using Klefki or Grimmsnarl just for good, Dragapult with Screens never have been a problem against me, I feel like it's completely fine without Mag and Eleki.
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?
We value your input, so please do not hesitate to let us know here!
Retesting Tera as it seems to be one of the most controversial thing atm. People are complaining, so why not making them decide once more. After 2 suspects, it's like after 5 surveys where people were not voting to suspect Garganacl, they can't talk and complain anymore.
I may have bad opinions but don't hurt me please.
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
I answered 7 because even if the metagame is a bit broken, I'm enjoying playing new toys, playing the Zamas, trying to find counters to some broken mons, the meta still needs a lot of changes BUT I feel it enjoyable now without Eleki and Mag.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame?
I answred 6 because the metagame is quite unstable now and some pokemon seems overwhelming even if I think time will help us see if some pokemon can emmerge as great counters of the actual big threats.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Chien-Pao?
Pao is clearly too much to handle for the tier, so I gave a 4. I didn't gave the 5 because of Urshifu, Tauros and the Zamas. I feel like we have more answers now than before, but at the same time, as some of the council leaders have mentionned before, we now have a lot of SD+Tera and this is unpredictable. If you have Sacred Sword, Zama-Crowned is destroyed, if you have Tera (Flying, Psychic, Fairy, whatever you want) you will destroy Urshifu/Tauros and Zama-H on switch too.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Zamazenta-Hero?
I voted 4 once more. Since this is just the better Zama imo (things may have been different since Mag ban), faster and able to carry an item, I think this one is really overwhelming too.
As much as Pao is in the tier, this thing is a great addition, if Pao leaves, then this need to leave too. While the Crowned always have the same set, like Iron Defense, BP, Crunch and a last random move, Zama-hero is quite unpredictable and really threatening.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Zamazenta-Crowned
Ok don't hate me for that but I voted 3 (because 3.5 is not possible lol). Zama-C is not "completely fine" but he is fine imo. The steel type is appreciated, but you really lack of power sometimes, and you need to set-up to be threatening. Yes, this can sweep all non-prepared teams... but like Volcarona, Iron Valliant or Roaring Moon...
This mon is an awesome addition to the tier and should stay at least for a moment to see how he is doing in a stable metagame.
I saw some scarf landos using Sandsear Storm and Earthquake, to be able to hit Zama even when he is full boosted in Def. There is a lot of Corviknight Rocky Helmet and with Teras Fairy/Ghost, a lot of people are being original to beat this. It can seems too much for some of you and I understand but I really want more time to think about this one.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Sneasler?
If I could I would have voted 4.5, but I can't so I decided to vote 5. This mon is one of the best addition at the same time he is one of the worst nightmare GF have ever created.
A lot of Fake Out + Toxic Touch sets are played, but the real nightmare is the Unburden + Terrain set, with Tera Fly Acrobatics. This set is monstruous and is so good. Some mons like Gholdengo, Corviknight etc are seen more than ever because of him, but the truth is, this mon would have been totally fine without Dire Claw.
The problem is Dire Claw. Should we ban this instead of the mon ? No. Unlike Last Respects, this is a signature move, totally broken but completely associated to Sneasler.
This thing can burn, paralyse or put asleep someone, and some evil people are playing this with Toxic Touch to be sure to hit one of the 4 statuts. The amount of games I won by clicking this on pokemon resisting to this move is insane.
As long as Dire Claw will be a broken brainless move, this thing should be banned.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Urshifu-Rapid-Strike?
I voted 2, this thing is good but totally fine. Most of the time, it can't hit Water Absorb Clodsire, Amoonguss, Azumarill, Toxapex, Slowbrothers... a lot of mons like Corviknight are Rocky Helmet, there are faster mons who can RK him...
This thing is awesome but not as broken as all the others mons listed before. We should not focus him atm.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Ursaluna?
I voted 4 because I think this thing is overwelming. It's so bulky, make Trick Room a good thing, can OHKO almost everything he wants and force Air Balloon Gholdengos. But even with that, people are anticipating, clicking Fire Punch and Bye Bye Gholdengo.
Yes, the loss of Magearna hits him, but Cress/Hatterene + Ursaluna is pretty insane. Even without TR, this thing is monstruous and will make 1 KO or 2 minimum even if you are playing badly.
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Light Clay?
I voted 1. Screens are good since so many time now, it's sometimes too hard to handle for lower tiers, but in OU ? Meh. Using Klefki or Grimmsnarl just for good, Dragapult with Screens never have been a problem against me, I feel like it's completely fine without Mag and Eleki.
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?
We value your input, so please do not hesitate to let us know here!
Retesting Tera as it seems to be one of the most controversial thing atm. People are complaining, so why not making them decide once more. After 2 suspects, it's like after 5 surveys where people were not voting to suspect Garganacl, they can't talk and complain anymore.
I may have bad opinions but don't hurt me please.
tera is based because it means I can beat stall easier. still not as based as z moves tho
Even on hard stall it blocks trick which isn't useless, alomomola can wish pass it to keep healthy, has insane bulk and resistances.
See, the thing is, a meta is an ever evolving state. To your points.
1) If it doesn't feel real to you and feels like something else, that's because it is. The formula changed, just like it has for the last 3 generations, The difference is that it's the first meta game/meta coming off a mechanic ban that has never happened in the history of smogon prior. Part of a meta is adapting to changes that were made. It doesn't feel real because its new and different.
2) "Tera is actively making you worse at mons" is perhaps one of the most horrendous takes I have ever heard regards to anything in the game. It requires an entirely new skillset compared to Mega's or Z moves as you actually have to think before you commit to it. Mega's and Z moves required hard commits to the mechanic during the match, while Tera is something else entirely. It adds extra depth to team building to either bolster further power or potentially stave off major weakness, depending on what your team needs rather than the individual mon. The entire concept of tera forces you to pay smarter, IMO, because you have to factor in a type change.
"It's not going to add anything to your skill level if you're interested in playing the next generation and beyond." My guy, the series could end with this generation for all you know, so thats just a ludicrous statement. Metagames 1-8 are still played and enjoyed by those across the entirety of the community to some point or another. As stated before, the generational gimmick changed the way the game is played the last 3 gens. To me this sounds not of someone who is salty about tera, but someone who simply doesn't want things to change from what many would consider a stagnant generation prior.
Your free to NOT like tera or aspects of this generation, I want to point that out. But to claim that it doesn't require skill and forces inherently uninformed that doesn't require thought both during a game and prior in the teambuilder is absolutely, blatantly, false.
LOL
In all seriousness, it's hard to reconcile with the idea that cart mechanics are making the game (you know, the simulator for the game with the cart mechanics) worse. This may have been said for dramatic effect but it's hard to say for sure based on the leading argument. The problem with all of this is that Tera should only be removed from the metagame if we think it fundamentally prevents the metagame from being balanced. Saying that the metagame will be more balanced right away if we ban it isn't really relevant. If we have to ban additional Pokemon to retain the mechanic then we should. If we demonstrate the mechanic continues to be unbalanced regardless of these bans, then we should ban the mechanic. It was inevitable for Dmax. I don't think things are as clear cut here.
You sound mad. Tera takes skill to use well and a bad player will just click the button and lose whatever mon they're running. Like I play offensive teams and I have the things I actually plan on teraing regularly, but there are times where I have to tera my lead (meowscarada pre-home and h-samurott post home) in order to keep spikes or tera something else to apply pressure. Tera isn't just a matchup cheese button, though it definitely can be that, it's a genuinely interesting mechanic that can change the tide of battles if used well or change nothing if used poorly.
I think Zamazenta has overtaken Chien Pao as the pokemon I want banned the most.
Is ChienPao better, less healthy and more broken, I think so yes.
But at least with ChienPao I know what I'm fighting
Note I did not specify which I wanted gone, I just want at least one of them gone as the counterplay is wildly different between the two, and so it heavily interferes with your planning ahead at preview. Ideally both go, along with Chien and maybe Sneasler, but it just feels like an artificial irritant which is there for no reason. (yes I'm aware its cart accurate. its stupid there too).
Is ChienPao better, less healthy and more broken, I think so yes.
But at least with ChienPao I know what I'm fighting
Note I did not specify which I wanted gone, I just want at least one of them gone as the counterplay is wildly different between the two, and so it heavily interferes with your planning ahead at preview. Ideally both go, along with Chien and maybe Sneasler, but it just feels like an artificial irritant which is there for no reason. (yes I'm aware its cart accurate. its stupid there too).
Some thoughts on SV OU. Not directly related to the metagame, but from a higher-level "competitive games" perspective.
1) Light Clay is a red herring. When you have multiple broken Pokemon running around in a tier, your best "profit-maximizing" strategy it to run Screens. When you remove oppressive Pokemon in the metagame, defensive archetypes have more room from a teambuilding perspective. A good recent example is with Grimm Screens pre-Home. Screens seems pretty broken when you have CM + Booster Flutter, SD Chien Pao, and NP Chi-Yu on the same team. As broken stuff, including Shed Tail, got banned, Screens just got worse and worse (regardless if you had Grimm or Pult as your Screens setter). Advocating for a Light Clay ban is myopic and nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction. Would you ban Regenerator to nerf Stall as a playstyle? Both playstyles are at the ass-ends of the playstyle bell curve, and they are frustrating (not impossible) to play against because how infrequent they are.
2) Part of Pokemon's gameplay (and what I think is lost on a lot of newer players) is risk management, even with the most unexpected. Many aspects of our game (% status, % stat boost, %usage, accuracy) is made known to the player, and it's our job as the player to chart the best course given this information, both in teambuilding and during the battle. It feels like Dire Claw is one of those moves: we over-fixate on the numbers, make a Twitlonger about it, and then realize it wasn't that big of a deal as the metagame progressed. Just like Walking Wake pre-Home and now Ursaluna post-Home.
3) I always feel like the general vibe in modern Smogon is "chasing that ultimate balanced metagame". A balanced metagame is Street Fighter 1: perfectly balanced, but boring as fuck to play. Don't try to put every Pokemon under the "guilty until proven innocent" lens. Play with what you got, and innovate within that space. The broken stuff will make itself obvious in time. Make sure that your daily # games played on PS! > daily # posts made in this thread.
1) Light Clay is a red herring. When you have multiple broken Pokemon running around in a tier, your best "profit-maximizing" strategy it to run Screens. When you remove oppressive Pokemon in the metagame, defensive archetypes have more room from a teambuilding perspective. A good recent example is with Grimm Screens pre-Home. Screens seems pretty broken when you have CM + Booster Flutter, SD Chien Pao, and NP Chi-Yu on the same team. As broken stuff, including Shed Tail, got banned, Screens just got worse and worse (regardless if you had Grimm or Pult as your Screens setter). Advocating for a Light Clay ban is myopic and nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction. Would you ban Regenerator to nerf Stall as a playstyle? Both playstyles are at the ass-ends of the playstyle bell curve, and they are frustrating (not impossible) to play against because how infrequent they are.
2) Part of Pokemon's gameplay (and what I think is lost on a lot of newer players) is risk management, even with the most unexpected. Many aspects of our game (% status, % stat boost, %usage, accuracy) is made known to the player, and it's our job as the player to chart the best course given this information, both in teambuilding and during the battle. It feels like Dire Claw is one of those moves: we over-fixate on the numbers, make a Twitlonger about it, and then realize it wasn't that big of a deal as the metagame progressed. Just like Walking Wake pre-Home and now Ursaluna post-Home.
3) I always feel like the general vibe in modern Smogon is "chasing that ultimate balanced metagame". A balanced metagame is Street Fighter 1: perfectly balanced, but boring as fuck to play. Don't try to put every Pokemon under the "guilty until proven innocent" lens. Play with what you got, and innovate within that space. The broken stuff will make itself obvious in time. Make sure that your daily # games played on PS! > daily # posts made in this thread.
I learned Smogon forums and PS! are different things lol.
Every staff member in OU chat on PS! are anti-tera and actively talk shit on it every day.
Most of the chat is actively and openly anti-tera.
The stuff I'm saying here pales to what the people who actually play this game are saying lol.
Fun and Balance scores at 5 is crazy.
Idt a lot of forum lurkers ladder much.
And yes, Tera actually makes stall better lol
I know you love to downplay current bad mechanics by reminiscing about the good old days of iron head flinch and gen 5 scald burns but that doesn't mean you can't think outside the box as well.
I still play mons but it's in spite of these mechanics, in fact one of my fave teams rn abuses yellow magic.
I'm saying there's a conversation to be had about trying to optimize the game.
I don't know what some player's love affair with literal luck deciding games instead of skill, but that's just me.
At some point, there were ppl laugh reacting posts about banning evasion.
Just take a step back and ask yourself what's wrong with wanting to elevate the game?
Even if just hypothetical discussion, on a forum dedicated to pokemon, why is your response so hostile towards just thinking about what things could look like without some of these mechanics.
Just weird vibes all around ngl.
Yeah the highest grossing media franchise of all time is going to stop making games. I guess we're even for hot takes king.
I know I sound mad and anti-fun. You like Tera, I like games like this where Tera wasn't a factor.
My opp didn't Tera, and my Tera flying Gold didn't really matter.
Just a good game. Just a peek of what gen 9 could look like.
If the meta is worse than it is now w no Tera I will literally be the first one saying I was wrong.
It's just weird that we may never get to see, but I'm not like angry lol. I'm still gonna play at the end of the day.
A lot of the fun of posting is seeing how weirdly upset a core group of forum lurkers get when you say a single negative thing about Tera.
Ppl talked all kinds of shit on Z moves back in gen 7, and I loved Z moves, but I never like, took it any sort of personal way, or went out of my way to negative react their comments, or like.. care, really at all lmao.
Weird vibes on here sometimes.
I put Chien-Pao at 5 and everything else a fair bit lower on the survey. I don't think the Zamas are super crazy, but they're obnoxious and I wouldn't mind if they left. Everything else feels like a non-issue for now.
Have been using screens a lot to get a feel for light clay and have laddered up to top 10 with them now. They're pretty good; I don't think they're busted enough to ban light clay on the basis of it being overpowered, but I wouldn't really mind if it left either. It's kind of a low collateral ban that helps stabilise the meta, but without Magearna I think screens are gonna slowly fall off. Here's the team I used: https://pokepast.es/842fad960e411a71
Some stuff I wanted to talk about; Roaring Moon is nowhere to be found but it's extremely good, does the Acro sweeper thing much better than Sneasler. Very underrated rn. Speaking of Sneasler, I don't think it's all that, really. Dire Claw isn't even very good on it imo, it just doesn't hit hard enough and Sneasler isn't the type of mon that gets enough chances to fish. It can be nice against Lando, but generally I found Gunk Shot to be better. Sneasler is really good but it's a far cry from broken - especially the SD sets. CB might be interesting. I liked Scarf a lot.
Hisuian Samurott has been pretty unimpressive. It doesn't feel like it does much other than get spikes up and die. Not that that isn't decently valuable, mind you; it just doesn't feel like enough to save an otherwise pretty middling mon. It's also mega weak. Kleavor seems pretty bad for the same reasons. Scarf Enamorus is more threatening than expected, esp. with Tera Ground; super fast Fairy/Ground nuke is definitely a challenge for offense to handle. Specs is very scary too, but easier to take advantage of once it locks ime. Galarian Slowking is a good example of a solid check and is also one of the best returning mons imo, it's not as hard to switch into as before but giving that thing a pivot move was a mistake.
I saw people talking about how Zapdos shouldn't be running bulky sets because it lost utility moves. Couldn't be further from the truth imo - fat 3atks Zap is really obnoxious. Completely trashes Tusk, Lando, Zama, Sneasler (w/o Gunk - another reason I don't like Claw), and is a pretty decent Shifu check esp. with Tera Water. I ran a fair bit of SpDef on it too, you can EV it to live 2 non-Tera hits from Specs Pult without much issue, which also helps with Scarf Enamorus among other things. Super solid pivot in general.
I think the meta is a fun little pit of chaos. There's a lot going on and it's hard to adjust after being used to pre-home for so long but it's interesting to see all the new stuff people are coming up with. Shame to see stuff like Breloom and Ceruledge disappear entirely but that's just how it is sometimes I suppose. Either way I hope everyone's having as much fun as I am :D
Have been using screens a lot to get a feel for light clay and have laddered up to top 10 with them now. They're pretty good; I don't think they're busted enough to ban light clay on the basis of it being overpowered, but I wouldn't really mind if it left either. It's kind of a low collateral ban that helps stabilise the meta, but without Magearna I think screens are gonna slowly fall off. Here's the team I used: https://pokepast.es/842fad960e411a71
Some stuff I wanted to talk about; Roaring Moon is nowhere to be found but it's extremely good, does the Acro sweeper thing much better than Sneasler. Very underrated rn. Speaking of Sneasler, I don't think it's all that, really. Dire Claw isn't even very good on it imo, it just doesn't hit hard enough and Sneasler isn't the type of mon that gets enough chances to fish. It can be nice against Lando, but generally I found Gunk Shot to be better. Sneasler is really good but it's a far cry from broken - especially the SD sets. CB might be interesting. I liked Scarf a lot.
Hisuian Samurott has been pretty unimpressive. It doesn't feel like it does much other than get spikes up and die. Not that that isn't decently valuable, mind you; it just doesn't feel like enough to save an otherwise pretty middling mon. It's also mega weak. Kleavor seems pretty bad for the same reasons. Scarf Enamorus is more threatening than expected, esp. with Tera Ground; super fast Fairy/Ground nuke is definitely a challenge for offense to handle. Specs is very scary too, but easier to take advantage of once it locks ime. Galarian Slowking is a good example of a solid check and is also one of the best returning mons imo, it's not as hard to switch into as before but giving that thing a pivot move was a mistake.
I saw people talking about how Zapdos shouldn't be running bulky sets because it lost utility moves. Couldn't be further from the truth imo - fat 3atks Zap is really obnoxious. Completely trashes Tusk, Lando, Zama, Sneasler (w/o Gunk - another reason I don't like Claw), and is a pretty decent Shifu check esp. with Tera Water. I ran a fair bit of SpDef on it too, you can EV it to live 2 non-Tera hits from Specs Pult without much issue, which also helps with Scarf Enamorus among other things. Super solid pivot in general.
I think the meta is a fun little pit of chaos. There's a lot going on and it's hard to adjust after being used to pre-home for so long but it's interesting to see all the new stuff people are coming up with. Shame to see stuff like Breloom and Ceruledge disappear entirely but that's just how it is sometimes I suppose. Either way I hope everyone's having as much fun as I am :D
Because at that point, you're not playing Pokemon.
Pokemon was designed to be a child's first RPG, and Japanese RPGs love their luck elements - most even have a Luck stat. Luck is built into the game from the most basic elements: damage ranges, critical hits, miss chance, status effects, moves with secondary effects, abilities like Flame Body and Effect Spore...
Gutting fundamental gameplay elements isn't 'elevating the game', it's changing it to something that simply isn't Pokemon. It's also a slippery slope: if a 25% chance for a full paralysis is too much and needs to be removed, what about 70% accurate moves? 30% chance secondary effects? Do we ban Hurricane twice over, since it's both? How about Hydro Pump, 20% miss chance isn't much less than the full paralysis chance. If we ban that, how about Fire Blast and the 15% miss chance. If not, why is 25% too much but 20% is fine? How about Population Bomb or (the currently dexited) Triple Axle, which repeatedly check a 90% accuracy?
Minimum hits are 85% of the maximum (the random multiplier is 217 to 255), so if 15% is too much RNG, then do we have to change moves to deal fixed damage?
Or maybe we're OK with accuracy, regardless of the numbers. How about Crunch, and its 20% chance to drop the target's defense? That's a 1 in 5 chance to bypass a check by luck. Moonblast is a 30% chance to neuter an offensive check, is that OK? Moves like Icicle Spear, that hit a random number of times? Ancient Power is a bad move, but that's still a 10% chance for an omniboost, does it need to go, or is the low BP enough that it's not a problem?
All of this is genuinely random, and out of the player's control. Competitive Pokemon is all about risk management, to the point that I'll argue it's the single most important skill, even moreso than predicting your opponent. Things get banned when they are nothing except an increase in pure RNG, like Evasion Clause, or when the RNG becomes so overwhelming that skill stops mattering, like Moody and Swagger, but trying to eradicate luck from Pokemon leaves you with something that isn't Pokemon.
Also, I take offense at implying that I support Scald. I have done many terrible things, I have made many huge mistakes, and I have had many bad takes, but I have never - not once - supported Scald.
Uh, I kinda hard disagree, it has U-turn, It's naturally fast and forces switches, It's really fucking easy to go for cheese. On my personal case each time I use Sneasler, I get multiple opportunities (and don't get shit because I'm an unlucky bastard) but one thing doesn't take out the other, and the overall opinion on the community speaks on how frustrating the move is, besides, Gunk Shot has a chance to not even hit, and even if it hits, poison point + gunk shot is 51% poison, which sure it's more than a flip coin, but sleep and paralyzes have their side grades and I don't think I should explain them, even tho they are not supposed to be a guarantee, yet is the main reason why so many people are calling up public execution for this thing. Eventually people are gonna start just abusing it better, by hex spam, hax frustration spam, and overall opening for a good amount of chip damage
I do agree on defensive Zapdos tho, very slept on
I'm interested to hear why some of yall hate stall so much. Personally, i enjoy the occasional stall match. It's a slower paced game where I've essentially got majority of the offensive pressure and I just have to get the call right. There's enough tools now that pressuring the opponent has become really easy too. Doesn't even show up on ladder that much in my experience.
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