Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[furyofyuriy]

Dynamax significantly enhancing the viability of lower-tier Pokemon with Flying-type moves has no bearing on whether Terastal is broken because the mechanics are different. What they share in common is giving Pokemon enhanced power and allowing them to break through what should have been checks.

You are correct in that they are different, however that is exactly the point. OU affects every tier below it and is the threshold for what is truly within the broken camp, Ubers. If Tera as a whole isn't placing a stranglehold on the lower tiers, than it isn't the mechanic, it's the mons in the tier. Mega's and Z Crystals could be broken up between the tiers fairly because weaker mons would fall off into said tiers, limiting said mechanics. Dynamax was universally broken in every tier, which Tera has not demonstrated in this case, which is why I brought it up.

There is no rule that states that lower-tier Pokemon from previous generations must be viable to point to Terastal being also broken like Dynamax was, although Articuno-Galar being usable in OU 'cause of Terastal does show that that happens, albeit to a lesser extent.

Correct, however there IS a rule in place that states that there is a trickle down effect in terms of bans. Mega stones, Light clay, aurora veil, and other such cases have been demonstrated to be banned in lower tiers in the past even if they didn't have a good abuser in the tier. This is because, if something in a higher tier is considered broken, it clearly cannot be used in a lower tier. Tera, from what I and many others have seen when playing lower tiers, has not been the case because the problem mons get sent higher up and typically never reach OU viability and have reached a stable plateau. Therefore, that speaks to the current power level of OU mons. Dynamax universally was viewed as broken in every tier, Tera has not demonstrated that point.

I maintain that Espathra, Palafin, Chien-Pao, Regieleki, Volcarona, and perhaps Urshifu-Rapid Strike, were all broken because of Terastal although you can make the argument that Urshifu-Rapid Strike may have been broken without Tera due to the big buffs it received this generation.

Regieleki I will absolutely agree with and Volc I will begrudgingly agree with. The rest, I can't at all. Esparthra had all the utility moves it could want. If not for Lumina Crash, it would be a bit more manageable even without Tera Blast. Palafin was just ability-less Slaking with wannabe ESpeed STAB. 650 Base stats just for switching out? No thanks. And you already highlighted Urshifu, which was def not broken due to Tera but can be considered a questionable ban as of now, which I could see being oppressive for your highlighted reasons.

Thoughts on individual decisions

• community is about 50/50 split between action vs no action. Of course many will have changed their minds, and a restriction approach is still an option. But this is clearly an issue within the community, and if we're using "write in mentions" as a metric to justify bans now.... it's weird that Tera was ignored whilst Volcarona was banned. Why isn't the middle ground of suspect testing being considered?

I think in large part it has to do with the fact that Tera made it through the initial survey about it while also coupling the fact that a ton of new mons were added to the tier. I agree with your point about Volc/Tera write ins, however I also understand the councils decision on it. As Finch said, if Tera is the problem then Volcarona is most likely free and clear. It is much easier to free one or two mons from Ubers than it is a mechanic that affects 1000+ mons (even if they aren't in the game.) Given the transparency about suspecting Tera in the future, there is no need for immediate action on the mechanic. While I don't like the idea of tournaments having any amount of sway over tiering philosophy as a whole, quick action on Tera as opposed to a single outlier has major ramifications for every tier.

 

[coral fan]

I think in large part it has to do with the fact that Tera made it through the initial survey about it while also coupling the fact that a ton of new mons were added to the tier. I agree with your point about Volc/Tera write ins, however I also understand the councils decision on it. As Finch said, if Tera is the problem then Volcarona is most likely free and clear. It is much easier to free one or two mons from Ubers than it is a mechanic that affects 1000+ mons (even if they aren't in the game.) Given the transparency about suspecting Tera in the future, there is no need for immediate action on the mechanic. While I don't like the idea of tournaments having any amount of sway over tiering philosophy as a whole, quick action on Tera as opposed to a single outlier has major ramifications for every tier.

This is why in an ideal world, Tera should have been on the survey, would probably have recieved a high amount of support, and could have been suspect tested with Volcarona still in the meta. Volcarona really isn't on the same level as something like Regieleki, it isn't that much of a priority.

But since neither of them were on the survey, I feel that taking immediate action on either would be irresponsible, which is why I disagree with the Volcarona quickban and would instead request a second survey to gauge people's thoughts on Volc and Tera instead of relying on estimates based on the number of write-ins. I understand banning/restricting Tera is a much more complex issue than targeting a couple of specific mons, but I think we should prioritise bans not by complexity but instead by community feedback - the absence of Tera and Volcarona on the previous survey was a mistake, but it's one that can be easily fixed - with another survey.

 

[MegaScizor32]

This type of message gets posted by someone salty at least once a week so just want to say that no this is not what happened and you can go check YouTube yourself. I posted a video called "Should Terastallize be banned in Pokemon Scarlet and Violet?" featuring me and my 3 buddies who all got reqs and have been playing tournament for 10 years to great success. That vid got 46k views and a lot of people cried and said that its why tera didn't get banned. But I'm sure you have no problem with freezai posting a video called ""Why Terastalization Should Be Banned" which got 144k views and is a literal direct call to action. "Telling randos to go vote pro-tera? It always goes back to this type of statement. Randos that started playing this morning don't vote in suspect tests. You have to battle and get reqs and show a certain level of competence. I know you want to phrase this as "im very smart and anti-tera and those who like tera are stupid" but I promise you that this is not the way. I know bro, you're extremely smart and able to resist my and joey's mind control which the other impressionable fools just cant seem to do. I won't go back and forth so absorb my post and move on.

Damn
Damn this man just owned LoseToRU? . Bro is right you not convincing anyone from the Pro-tera side to change their minds especially with how you come across all your posts. It comes off very bitter and salty

 

[furyofyuriy]

This is why in an ideal world, Tera should have been on the survey, would probably have recieved a high amount of support, and could have been suspect tested with Volcarona still in the meta. Volcarona really isn't on the same level as something like Regieleki, it isn't that much of a priority.

But since neither of them were on the survey, I feel that taking immediate action on either would be irresponsible, which is why I disagree with the Volcarona quickban and would instead request a second survey to gauge people's thoughts on Volc and Tera instead of relying on estimates based on the number of write-ins. I understand banning/restricting Tera is a much more complex issue than targeting a couple of specific mons, but I think we should prioritise bans not by complexity but instead by community feedback - the absence of Tera and Volcarona on the previous survey was a mistake, but it's one that can be easily fixed - with another survey.

As stated, as much as I hate the moth I agree with your comment. One or both should go through the proper suspect testing. While I think Volcarona deserved the kick to Ubers after its decade long stay in OU, it should have been through the proper channels give it's long stint in the SV meta game prior to Home.
Edit: But I'm not gonna pretend I am sad the Moth from hell is gone.

 

[The Funky Reason]

"Norms Bro"
Just want to say a few things, especially about council people like Finchinator who are constantly reminding everyone of norms. CONSTANTLY. I think that's a good thing, rulings should be consistent. Finch doesn't believe in this though whenever it gets in the way of anything he wants to ban.

Light Clay: We are constantly told "Items have a very high bar to be banned". Okay, no issue. Then we remember King's Rock. Banned because of Cloyster and kind of Weavile. Broken on literally 2 mons is enough for that item to be gone. I don't even like King's Rock, it's dumb cheese, but "Items have a very high standard to be banned". I ask, do 2 mons being broken with an item clear that threshold? I doubt most people would say yes. Granted, rock is cheese, so most people really didn't care norms were broken and were happy to see it gone. However, we are breaking norms here.

Volcarona: We are constantly told: "Quick bans are for especially broken Pokemon where suspects would be a waste of time." Then a survey comes out and volc doesn't appear and is mentioned significantly less than tera. Quickbanned. Not nearly enough support in the community to do this. We break norms again.

I wouldn't care if you guys at the council just said "Fuck it, we don't care about your opinion at all. We know the game better than you, and we will balance it as we see fit". Pretending this is some democratic system with norms that are important when we through out the norms as soon as they get in the way of our agenda is pretty gross. I think people would be mad if you were mask off about it instead of pretending you are following any sort of standard or anything.

"The Council is Transparent"

The council has been incredibly transparent throughout the generation. That is awesome. However, it doesn't matter if they are transparently breaking norms. Who cares if they all spoke of their distaste for volc? It is justified, and they can do that. Turning that into a quick ban though is ridiculous without nearly enough public support. They are being very transparent with the surveys. I love the surveys. But it doesn't matter if they give them out and then just do whatever the fuck they want regardless of the results. What is the point of even having them if the results only matter when they justify shit you already wanted to be done anyway? That's not how democracy works.

"I Love Finch But..."

Read back on this thread people. Is it not frightening to anyone that we've had a culture so scared of criticizing the council that everyone prefaces their criticisms with "Finch is awesome but"? Is it not concerning that they are so worried he will randomly take offense to something and lock the thread? Sometimes Finch gets upset about silly internet beef, but he has his thumb on all the buttons and is ready to flex his power if he wants to. Absolutely disgraceful that people are scared to give any criticism of the council and pad it with compliments.

What now?

I hope the council recognizes how deeply unpopular this decision is. Not just because a funny Pokemon should be in OU still, but because any time they give surveys or talk about norms, people now know they are totally bullshitting you and actually just let "the process" happen when it suits them. In a normal democracy, someone just primaries an unpopular candidate and they lose their job. This isn't a democracy here, nobody votes for these people. So, one of two things needs to happen:

1. We get some sort of apology, get volc back in OU, and have an agreement that if there are ever norms broken again, we get to replace the council.

2. The council can just come out and say that their purpose isn't to represent the player base and that they don't care about or need to follow norms. At least they are being honest and consistent that way.

3. Have people willing to break norms barred from being on the council, wipe it, and get a new one.

Prob a post that is going to be deleted so read it while you can. I love Finch though.

 

[Finchinator]

"I Love Finch But..."

Read back on this thread people. Is it not frightening to anyone that we've had a culture so scared of criticizing the council that everyone prefaces their criticisms with "Finch is awesome but"? Is it not concerning that they are so worried he will randomly take offense to something and lock the thread or delete your post? Sometimes Finch gets upset about silly internet beef, but he has his thumb on all the buttons and is ready to flex his power if he wants to. Absolutely disgraceful that people are scared to give any criticism of the council and pad it with compliments.

I have not deleted any posts with content in them all generation. The only people I have banned have been spambots for months. This thread has been very loosely moderated (if at all at times).

You can feel how you want about other stuff -- and I will address that tomorrow, but this is just misinformation.

 

[mothra_moth]

Volc was a high written in response to the last survey and a month ago people demanding he get tested and nothing has changed in regards to his game. We have this Meta for 3 months do we really want to waste a month of it testing volc.

We shouldn't! But instead we're going to waste a month of it testing something even more blatantly broken!

I am probably the worst person to like, talk about Volcarona because I'm of course carrying a bias, it's a favorite of mine, and a part of me is extremely proud to see it grace Ubers, even if it's in the same boat as some others in waiting for a tera suspect test to happen.

But man, this really should've been a suspect test, the Council has had since November to tackle Volcarona, and barely anything has changed outside of even more additions that can steal it's tera slot. It's just mind boggling to see Zama-H crawl away with only a suspect test announcement and see something that has both very good ban and no-ban arguments be banned when public input has said that's not the path they wanted, especially because a Pokémon with that had even more support than it on the radar (Garg), was said to "not warrant immediate action" with higher scores than what Volc got.

Shifu was a deserved ban, it was never going to last long with SD added, but it's sad to see the fate of a Day 1 Pokémon decided thru a QB vote.

Even worse to see the defenses on Twitter going as far to say "Volcarona has suddenly become everyone's favorite", when, of course it's been everyone's favorite! It's been one of the most popular Unova Pokémon right next to Zoroark and Chandelure!

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I have not deleted any posts with content in them all generation. The only people I have banned have been spambots for months. This thread has been very loosely moderated (if at all at times).

You can feel how you want about other stuff -- and I will address that tomorrow, but this is just misinformation.

I don't read him as accusing you of it but more of a warning cause we're on a very thin line lately that never would've been tolerated before, we're glad you're letting us discuss and stay open about things.

But when you say stuff on twitter like:

It almost feels like a threat that we can only compliment or you would stop being transparent. I don't believe you should be getting personally attacked (and IMO its dumb to cause you're not running the show on your own) but it definitely shows an ego 'high horse'.

 

[artificialdeath]

I have not deleted any posts with content in them all generation. The only people I have banned have been spambots for months. This thread has been very loosely moderated (if at all at times).

You can feel how you want about other stuff -- and I will address that tomorrow, but this is just misinformation.

Yeah I'm not a fan of what he described either but idt it's really fair to say that this is the council members' fault, not even the most inflammatory posts have been removed. It's usually been other members of the forum who jump to the defense of the council and say shit like this

 

[The Funky Reason]

I have not deleted any posts with content in them all generation. The only people I have banned have been spambots for months. This thread has been very loosely moderated (if at all at times).

You can feel how you want about other stuff -- and I will address that tomorrow, but this is just misinformation.

I was referring to King's Rock discussion from the last gen. I have no idea about this gen. Once it happens even once I have no idea how much you delete because it's deleted.

Finch edit: this was not even me deleting the post back then, sir. I am not the only moderator.

Me edit: Alright sorry, I will fix my post.

 

[Finchinator]

I don't read him as accusing you of it but more of a warning cause we're on a very thin line lately that never would've been tolerated before, we're glad you're letting us discuss and stay open about things.

But when you say stuff on twitter like:

View attachment 525339

It almost feels like a threat that we can only compliment or you would stop being transparent.

He accused me of doing things that I have never done. All I did was clear the air.

I am a person who is allowed to have feelings. Am I not allowed to have feelings? I have never censored anyone.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

 

[tigers jaw]

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

everyone needs to Log Off

either go to sleep’s or touch grass, depending on your time zone

 

[Finchinator]

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

No, we're not locking it. Let people get out their frustrations; the council is reading.

I will personally respond tomorrow. There is a lot of misinformation out there, even in some of the most popular posts, but I do think it is important to let people voice their opinions. There are also some well-thought out points.

The main thing that is annoying is hours prior to a lot of these posts, certain badged users had access to a feedback thread to post constructively in as any policy change goes through there (and this goes beyond OU/OU council) and instead ignored it to post here. But it is what it is.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

If there's personal attacks, which seems like everyone is getting close to fine, but reality is this is OU discussion and the precedent on what is QB worthy has been shook.

This is a ban that will affect future decisions a lot, for better or for worse, and one everyone is going to be constantly bringing up citing as a reason to hit tera or other things.

Zama-H suspect is going to be a disaster... between everyone bitching about wasting time suspecting it over quickban, suspecting it over tera/retesting volc, etc.

Its not an easy thing to end discussion and move on from, a 24 hour lock will just continue it or force a drastic decision by the council (which they've already made on volc to begin with).

 

[KamenOH]

I don't read him as accusing you of it but more of a warning cause we're on a very thin line lately that never would've been tolerated before, we're glad you're letting us discuss and stay open about things.

But when you say stuff on twitter like:

View attachment 525339

It almost feels like a threat that we can only compliment or you would stop being transparent. I don't believe you should be getting personally attacked (and IMO its dumb to cause you're not running the show on your own) but it definitely shows an ego 'high horse'.

Yeah, that twitter is rife with salt over the community reaction to the volc quickban.

He accused me of doing things that I have never done. All I did was clear the air.

I am a person who is allowed to have feelings. Am I not allowed to have feelings? I have never censored anyone.

You are allowed to have feelings, but when an obvious defensive front occurs, it seems as though these feelings are getting ahead of reason.

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

And so i dont double post, this is an encapsulation of RoyalDispenser 's and The Funky Reason 's posts, where any naysay is met with the thread being shut down for a while. How is a community supposed to express disapproval if that expression is met with a refusal to listen, a refusal to even allow said disapproval?

EDIT:

The main thing that is annoying is hours prior to a lot of these posts, certain badged users had access to a feedback thread to post constructively in as any policy change goes through there (and this goes beyond OU/OU council) and instead ignored it to post here. But it is what it is.

Youre joking.
A thread where only certain users could even access, is supposed to be the main hub for feedback? I wonder why yall even bother with pretenses of democracy and transparency. Its clear that there is a disdain for the average player and/or forum poster, and I can see why people are rightfully upset with how recent events and the reactions to such have occured the way they have.
But anyways, this wasn't a personal attack, and peacefully logging off is probably best for everyone involved.

 

[TCTphantom]

I feel like this thread just needs to be locked. Too much back and fourth arguing about tiering action and all that

I tried reading through everything since the bans but it was just way too toxic to go through.

Was this the outcome I wanted? No, I’d prefer nothing was banned, we suspect one Pokémon, then suspect Tera after wcop. But my god, people are being super toxic. I can see why finch and the rest of the council is annoyed. This thread was just as toxic if not moreso when Mag was the only thing banned last weekend. I get people are frustrated, but the vitriol I’ve seen in this thread is just unsettling.

Pokémon is just a game. Smogon is a site run by volunteers. Chill out everyone.

 

[Ctann]

Haha this thread is an outlet

are people actually feeling strong emotions about things?

Finchinator in your long post tomorrow please answer the most pressing questions around “how things are done”.

Because sometimes it’s said that things have to be consistent, like items having a high burden of proof to be broken.

and other times, these consistencies are broken. Like kings rock being hastily banned instead of cloyster. At the time it was after a tournament where cloyster broke past Melmetal.

sometimes the community doesn’t mind the hasty breaks of the norm, see: espathra, kings rock, etc. and sometimes they do, see: blindsiding Volcarona QB

-

Obviously the Volcarona quick ban is a super big example of doing things against the norm.

sometimes norms are being broken.

to protect tournaments just do tournaments using “the most recent stable meta”. It avoids situations like now.

 

[Leman123]

While I'm not entirely in agreement with the decisions (Ban Tera, Ban Zama), I think people who are complaining are stupid (and getting way too heated, it's Pokemon, touch grass). I'm very, very pleased with the pace of bans and the decisiveness of the council in this generation. We don't need to meticulously test and verify every single ban when its so obvious. If we were handling tiering like we used to back in the day (like some of you people seem to want it to be handled), we'd be starting our Landorus-I test around now, but instead, we're already on the cusp of completing all our bans less than a month in. This is excellent. I hope this style of bans, the speed and decisiveness continues as the DLCs drop and the lower tiers take note and emulate this.

 

[BobbyHill]

"Norms Bro"
Just want to say a few things, especially about council people like Finchinator who are constantly reminding everyone of norms. CONSTANTLY. I think that's a good thing, rulings should be consistent. Finch doesn't believe in this though whenever it gets in the way of anything he wants to ban.

Light Clay: We are constantly told "Items have a very high bar to be banned". Okay, no issue. Then we remember King's Rock. Banned because of Cloyster and kind of Weavile. Broken on literally 2 mons is enough for that item to be gone. I don't even like King's Rock, it's dumb cheese, but "Items have a very high standard to be banned". I ask, do 2 mons being broken with an item clear that threshold? I doubt most people would say yes. Granted, rock is cheese, so most people really didn't care norms were broken and were happy to see it gone. However, we are breaking norms here.

Volcarona: We are constantly told: "Quick bans are for especially broken Pokemon where suspects would be a waste of time." Then a survey comes out and volc doesn't appear and is mentioned significantly less than tera. Quickbanned. Not nearly enough support in the community to do this. We break norms again.

I wouldn't care if you guys at the council just said "Fuck it, we don't care about your opinion at all. We know the game better than you, and we will balance it as we see fit". Pretending this is some democratic system with norms that are important when we through out the norms as soon as they get in the way of our agenda is pretty gross. I think people would be mad if you were mask off about it instead of pretending you are following any sort of standard or anything.

"The Council is Transparent"

The council has been incredibly transparent throughout the generation. That is awesome. However, it doesn't matter if they are transparently breaking norms. Who cares if they all spoke of their distaste for volc? It is justified, and they can do that. Turning that into a quick ban though is ridiculous without nearly enough public support. They are being very transparent with the surveys. I love the surveys. But it doesn't matter if they give them out and then just do whatever the fuck they want regardless of the results. What is the point of even having them if the results only matter when they justify shit you already wanted to be done anyway? That's not how democracy works.

"I Love Finch But..."

Read back on this thread people. Is it not frightening to anyone that we've had a culture so scared of criticizing the council that everyone prefaces their criticisms with "Finch is awesome but"? Is it not concerning that they are so worried he will randomly take offense to something and lock the thread? Sometimes Finch gets upset about silly internet beef, but he has his thumb on all the buttons and is ready to flex his power if he wants to. Absolutely disgraceful that people are scared to give any criticism of the council and pad it with compliments.

What now?

I hope the council recognizes how deeply unpopular this decision is. Not just because a funny Pokemon should be in OU still, but because any time they give surveys or talk about norms, people now know they are totally bullshitting you and actually just let "the process" happen when it suits them. In a normal democracy, someone just primaries an unpopular candidate and they lose their job. This isn't a democracy here, nobody votes for these people. So, one of two things needs to happen:

1. We get some sort of apology, get volc back in OU, and have an agreement that if there are ever norms broken again, we get to replace the council.

2. The council can just come out and say that their purpose isn't to represent the player base and that they don't care about or need to follow norms. At least they are being honest and consistent that way.

3. Have people willing to break norms barred from being on the council, wipe it, and get a new one.

Prob a post that is going to be deleted so read it while you can. I love Finch though.

I am newer to competitive so I don’t want to give some long form opinion on if I think the council is right or not as far better players than me have more informed opinions.

However, does smogon not have a sort of constitution that the council has to follow?

While they don’t have to be exacting, I think there should be definitions and minimum guidelines for quickbans, suspects tests, item bans, move bans, etc.

It can be treated like US Case law where it forms precedent, but can be overturned in certain situations.

An example of a guideline is quickbans can happen within 1 week of a new metagame for newly released Pokémon, or Pokémon that score above a 3.5 on a community survey. so in this case Volc didn’t appear on the survey, and therefor could not be subject to a quickban.

Obviously the rules could have more depth, but I think it would help if the council and the community could point to exact precedent and bylaws that back their decisions.

 

[Ctann]

While I'm not entirely in agreement with the decisions (Ban Tera, Ban Zama), I think people who are complaining are stupid (and getting way too heated, it's Pokemon, touch grass). I'm very, very pleased with the pace of bans and the decisiveness of the council in this generation. We don't need to meticulously test and verify every single ban when its so obvious. If we were handling tiering like we used to back in the day (like some of you people seem to want it to be handled), we'd be starting our Landorus-I test around now, but instead, we're already on the cusp of completing all our bans less than a month in. This is excellent. I hope this style of bans, the speed and decisiveness continues as the DLCs drop and the lower tiers take note and emulate this.

Volcarona ban broke precedent.

1. wasnt questionared recently

2. Most recent questionaire didn’t have a significant score for volc, based on previous actions taken on scores

3. Alleged write ins for volc trumped by write ins about tera

4. Tera can allegedly not be discussed for “at least a few months” despite being the hottest topic of broken or not after the disapearance of Chien-Pao and Zam-H and also the hottest topic pre home

6. meanwhile Volcarona can get a sudden quick ban! With less write ins and less concern! Without giving more time for the meta to develop! Such swift and decisive action breaking all precedent!

hopefully this makes everything a bit clearer

Volcarona was the straw that broke the camels back.

this was done before with kings rock, and various other examples, no one batted an eye.

 

[Finchinator]

However, does smogon not have a sort of constitution that the council has to follow?

Everything we did was in-line with the tiering guidelines and approved by the tiering admin beforehand if this is what you mean.

Despite getting this approval, I was still uneasy about the timeline just because of how unprecedented sudden releases are (pre-dating any of these posts), so I went out of my way to make a thread to potentially amend practices here.

Volcarona ban broke precedent.

This is categorically false, by the way. A lot of things got quickbanned without surveys both historically and this generation. I think this needs to change moving forward though, which -- again -- is part of why I made a thread about changing policy.

 

[Ctann]

part of why I made a thread about changing policy.

This would be great

 

[Alternator]

Everything we did was in-line with the tiering guidelines and approved by the tiering admin beforehand if this is what you mean.

Despite getting this approval, I was still uneasy about the timeline just because of how unprecedented sudden releases are (pre-dating any of these posts), so I went out of my way to make a thread to potentially amend practices here.

This is categorically false, by the way. A lot of things got quickbanned without surveys both historically and this generation. I think this needs to change moving forward though, which -- again -- is part of why I made a thread about changing policy.

Given the periodic complaints about how there's not enough time to text XYZ, allowing shorter suspects tests after a new release (by which I mean Home or DLC, not a new raid) may be worth looking at. It'd allow a bit more time between tests for the meta to settle while still allowing the same overall frequency, if needed.

 

[Finchinator]

Given the periodic complaints about how there's not enough time to text XYZ, allowing shorter suspects tests after a new release (by which I mean Home or DLC, not a new raid) may be worth looking at

We already shortened suspect times from 2 weeks to 10 days at times earlier this generation for reasons like this actually!