Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[pika pal]

"Gholdengo is the reason Great Tusk is at 50% usage on ladder and over 80% in tournaments"

Did you misspell King Gambit?

Kingambit is where he'll get the other 50%

Its most definitely a volc suspect test cause it is a controversial ban and the only closure the council will get is whether they prove themselves right via the test failing to unban, or via volc getting unbanned and them proving they listened to us by letting us have a vote ourselves.

Only way I can see it not being volc is if we do tera first (preferred personally, cause volc is a definite unban on one of the outcomes of that anyways and its an inevitable test we need to stop procrastinating on.)

The only thing I'm wary of is that given Volcarona's controversial ban, the approach might raise some questions unless the Supermajority is a particularly high shut out, since "Uber dropping" vs "OU leaving" would change which side needs the 60% vote to get their desired result, which is DEFINITELY going to raise some hell if it ends up staying Uber with a 58% "Unban" vote

 

[carbonlifeform]

So, I'm an inherently streaky player. 'Mons is a major ADHD outlet for me, so I almost exclusively run calcs in the builder but rarely when I'm actually playing, I love weird sets and YOLO plays, and I'm prone to over-predicting if I play for too long in a sitting. But, man, SV and the constant Tera tech chasing makes the streakiness feel even more extreme, since it seems like the shelf-life on a given team is shorter than ever.

Case in point, I peaked top 100 with the latest version of the Tera Fairy Roaring Moon team I've plugged a couple times. Then I took, like, a week to mess around with some silly sets that I never expected to pan out, and now I can't even manage to reliably stay top 500 with that same team, mostly because of micro-adaptations in the meta. Like, I don't think I saw a single Tera Steel Great Tusk in 6 months only to run into 4 of them the other day. Why? Beats the hell outa me, but apparently it's a trend now, and it's yet another variable to consider match-by-match.

But if you're a relatively casual player (i.e. not tuned into the Discord or YouTube or whatever scenes) and running a team that isn't on an extreme of HO (which minimizes variance by reducing the number of turns and thus the number of opportunities for hax or an unexpected play to upend the result) or Semi-Stall (which seeks to minimize the importance of any individual play through redundancies and universally safe choices), it's nearly impossible to just pop in and out of the scene and expect anything close to stable performance. And that's exhausting.

It means I spend way more time in the builder, which means less time to play matches, which is frustrating when I spend my time building in order to actually play. It's why I took a two month break after Walking Wake dropped, and it's why I'll probably take another one soon, at least until we hit a stretch without any Suspects in sight and possibly all the way until both DLCs are out.

Anybody else having this experience?

 

[Karxrida]

LoseToRU? please shut the fuck up. You are providing nothing positive to the Tera circlejerk and are only feeding your own biases by constantly ad homing pro Tera people into being antagonistic, making it difficult (if not impossible) for actual discussion to take place.

Also, petitioning a moratorium on Tera as a topic so we can talk about literally anything else. It hasn't been going anywhere and won't until another test happens.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Random post, but imma run a Hisuian Avalugg calc real quick
4 Atk Strong Jaw Avalugg-Hisui Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Avalugg-Hisui Mountain Gale vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 276-326 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
A 2% power difference in exchange for a lesser flinch chance, more accuracy, more PP, a small freeze chance

And no Sturdy. Personally I like Sturdy more than Strong Jaw, but it can definitely work. also I cooked Hisuian Avalugg the day it dropped WAAAAAY before Morkoal's post about it but who cares It's actually a really good wall with having 127 attack making it a decent enough attacker. Ice Fang/Mountain Gale, Earthquake, Crunch and Body Press all handle the main physical sweepers in the tier, and Sturdy + Mirror Coat is an option against things like Gholdengo and other non Dark-type special attackers (though this is a risky 1-for-1 trade).

I'm taking a break from OU to play Freedom Cup (the better OU) and Hisuian Avalugg is amazing as always. It should 100% get some more recognition because its not terrible at all.

That's all I got to say. Forum posts are based with your image and badges determining how many reacts you get. BUUUUUT I'm not being salty at all

I'll take what I can get I suppose, but it could be better

I got nothing else to say. I'll see yall after the Freedom Cup hype is gone or if it gets removed. With all that being said, goodbye

 

[ant4456]

I have a lot of Haha reacts but that's because I am like, the biggest shitposter in this forum

Yeah I get hahas that are negative, but I also just have some of the biggest shitpost bangers in the thread

actually kinda surprising how few Angries I've gotten. 1 in 225 of my reacts are Angry. Feel free to get that ratio up.

On a serious note, have y'all been trying to get Hoodra to work? I feel likeI can't because it either needs AV and gets fucked up by hazards, or it needs Boots and with the main Spatkers right now being Fairy/Fighting and a Fairy Type with Earth Power, it isn't as bulky as I'd want for a Pokemon with zero recovery.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

Freedom Cup showdown me the way of the item clause and I think Smogon made a mistake not doing it for +15 years.

I wonder if people ever considered it?

Also for Anti-Tera I have my only stance against Tera being banned: Would it really change Team structures and Pokemon choices that much? I am certain that it will not change that much and it is only done so we have a repeat of Gen 8.

 

[Alternator]

Here is the problem with tera preview, it does not fix the problem of variance since you can still fuck with your opponent since you can use it at any time as long as you haven't used it. Its super easy to do that in singles even with tera preview, and it wouldn't be the same as in doubles in practice since the opportunity cost is way bigger in doubles to tera something since its easier to play around an unpredicted tera there

I genuinely fail to see how this is a problem. How is this fundamentally different from the opponent knowing you have Sucker Punch and needing to predict whether you're going to use it - or to go back to older gens, Pursuit if your mon can survive if it stays in?

You get the same prediction requirements from mons like Iron Valiant or Dragapult that can run completely different sets, or even the fourth move slot on something like Great Tusk - Ice Spinners vs. Knock Off really changes what can switch in and force him out.

 

[MegaScizor32]

Thoughts on people’s opinion on what should be done with Tera in OU? This is from Finch’s twitter.

 

[Srn]

Also for Anti-Tera I have my only stance against Tera being banned: Would it really change Team structures and Pokemon choices that much? I am certain that it will not change that much and it is only done so we have a repeat of Gen 8.

(June 23, 12:32 pm)

Gen 9 will be distinct and fresh regardless of whether tera remains or not. Less knock off, less toxic, less scald (for now ), less recovery pp, no defog, stronger hazard setters, and booster energy+paradox pokemon are HUGE differences that will not change. People who fearmonger over SV becoming SS are extremely paranoid. The very fact that Tornadus-T is MID tells us everything: we wont go back bros dw.

(June 22, 8:16 pm)

Time is a circle

(So that this isn't a one-liner let me address the rest of that) I think team structures would change a bit, and it's actually a little self evident in our recent exciting tera discussion. Dudebones recently showed us a team that hit 2k+ where the Walking Wake answer is to tera water the sdef lando-t. This kind of counterplay vanishes if tera gets banned, and you'll need to pack sturdier resists rather than just accept you'll use tera to shore up a MU you choose to be weak to. WW is just one pokemon whose counterplay often involves tera, Roaring Moon is another one (tera normal espeed dnite, tera fairy garg, tera steel great tusk, and more). These dragons (baxcalibur too) may grow to be too strong in a meta with few viable fairies+no tera fairy, but this is just speculation on my end. I think lots will change if tera is banned.

 

[Narmy]

I have a lot of Haha reacts but that's because I am like, the biggest shitposter in this forum

Yeah I get hahas that are negative, but I also just have some of the biggest shitpost bangers in the thread

Wait hahas can be percieved negatively?
Gulp

 

[Karxrida]

Thoughts on people’s opinion on what should be done with Tera in OU? This is from Finch’s twitter.


View attachment 528515

Like I'm pro Tera and all, but I don't think a random Twitter poll where any random schmuck (including people who don't play Singles and hate us) can vote is truly indicative of the community's opinion.

 

[awyp]

Thoughts on people’s opinion on what should be done with Tera in OU? This is from Finch’s twitter.


View attachment 528515

Casuals

 

[1LDK]

Again, this would be "appeal to popularity" logical fallacy, but I guess I'll take the bait.

Fun fact, I have more hahas than loves, wows, sads, and angrys combined


So uh, to now make this an illegal one-liner, what have you guys been using, I have been using and catching stuff off guard in low ladder, aside from that, I'm doing some heat with AV volcanion, which sounds weird but Its cool because you never die to one shot, unless is a discharge crit from offensive zapdos

 

[Narmy]

Ive been using Slither Wing a lot since the Volc ban (You can take my moth but you can't take my other moth!) You'd be surprised how many Hoopa Unbounds i ran into try challenging it not knowing first impression has priority.

 

[LoseToRU?]

So, I'm an inherently streaky player. 'Mons is a major ADHD outlet for me, so I almost exclusively run calcs in the builder but rarely when I'm actually playing, I love weird sets and YOLO plays, and I'm prone to over-predicting if I play for too long in a sitting. But, man, SV and the constant Tera tech chasing makes the streakiness feel even more extreme, since it seems like the shelf-life on a given team is shorter than ever.

Case in point, I peaked top 100 with the latest version of the Tera Fairy Roaring Moon team I've plugged a couple times. Then I took, like, a week to mess around with some silly sets that I never expected to pan out, and now I can't even manage to reliably stay top 500 with that same team, mostly because of micro-adaptations in the meta. Like, I don't think I saw a single Tera Steel Great Tusk in 6 months only to run into 4 of them the other day. Why? Beats the hell outa me, but apparently it's a trend now, and it's yet another variable to consider match-by-match.

But if you're a relatively casual player (i.e. not tuned into the Discord or YouTube or whatever scenes) and running a team that isn't on an extreme of HO (which minimizes variance by reducing the number of turns and thus the number of opportunities for hax or an unexpected play to upend the result) or Semi-Stall (which seeks to minimize the importance of any individual play through redundancies and universally safe choices), it's nearly impossible to just pop in and out of the scene and expect anything close to stable performance. And that's exhausting.

It means I spend way more time in the builder, which means less time to play matches, which is frustrating when I spend my time building in order to actually play. It's why I took a two month break after Walking Wake dropped, and it's why I'll probably take another one soon, at least until we hit a stretch without any Suspects in sight and possibly all the way until both DLCs are out.

Anybody else having this experience?

I've wrote about this a lot, but this is my most recent post about how insane it is to have to keep up with tera trends and techs to catch you off guard.

I literally don't build seriously rn, and I love building and I'm pretty good at making some wild HO.

It feels pointless to stare into builder and go ok I need a team that doesn't auto lose and can cover at least 50 different tera sets lol.

Thankfully, ppl are pretty cool about passing teams this gen. Maybe community is getting better, maybe they just don't care cuz they know the team will be dated and off-meta in a literal week, idk but when u get washed by someone u can just ask nicely if they're passing the team or not.

But short answer, yes, a lot of us are feeling the strain of tera on the building aspect of mons. We're all just looking for the most consistent MU fish..

I have a lot of Haha reacts but that's because I am like, the biggest shitposter in this forum

Yeah I get hahas that are negative, but I also just have some of the biggest shitpost bangers in the threadView attachment 528511

actually kinda surprising how few Angries I've gotten. 1 in 225 of my reacts are Angry. Feel free to get that ratio up.

On a serious note, have y'all been trying to get Hoodra to work? I feel likeI can't because it either needs AV and gets fucked up by hazards, or it needs Boots and with the main Spatkers right now being Fairy/Fighting and a Fairy Type with Earth Power, it isn't as bulky as I'd want for a Pokemon with zero recovery.

I don't use Hood even when I'm using my meme alts where I bring silly teams filled w RU mons, so take from that what you will.
It's just too straightforward of a mon to do anything cool with, from my testing.

If it had a sound move Throat Spray would be cool.
If it had a trapping move, something like Acid Spray or setting up Acid Armors could be cool.
If it had mirror coat, AV would be nice.

It's a simple mon, with no real tricks, and it's just outclassed in every way.

If you like the mon then here are some sets you could play with that aren't terrible.
Some need support from your team like the win-con set, but this is all I could come up with.

https://pokepast.es/a9956d2afd47e7af

 

[awyp]

wait let them cook

edit: i think the way you guys should settle this is through a duel, link it up here. lets go im waiting

 

[bigasschungusboi]

In other news, big Kingambit is still tearing up OU. Dearest OU lovers, please band together and help keep Zama-Hero in this tier and keep the horrendous Kingambit in check!

 

[Avira]

There wouldn't be a need for Zamazenta to keep Kingambit in check if Tera were banned. Kingambit is so much stronger in a Tera meta because it can flip its counterplay at any moment its user decides to do so.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm starting to miss the Hazards > Boots > Regen broken cycle from last gen's discussion threads lmao

 

[bigasschungusboi]

I'm starting to miss the Hazards > Boots > Regen broken cycle from last gen's discussion threads lmao

Who's too say we can't discuss this now?

 

[bigasschungusboi]

In all seriousness though boots regen spam might be pretty good in this meta if hazard control remains total dog shit

 

[Ast0rga]

Is it time to ride the Garganacl Ban Train again?

Everybody hop in, Choo Choo! *Train Whistle sounds*

Next Stop: Salt Cure is the most broken form of a "Poison Status" ever seen in Pokémon since it can't miss, it deals damage when hitting, said damage can be boosted by the ATK stat, it can hit SE, between turns damage is high, and between turns damage vs Water/Steel Pokémon is absurdly high-station

 

[MaskedFeraligatr]

This pricesely. We have way too little information to go off of to making surefire assumptions on their typings in general. Plus, making assumptions on mons based on their color has historically never panned out well. Besides, Okidogi honestly comes across as more of a Fighting-type or a Dark-type.

I could actually see them doing a subversion here; rather than dark and fighting which seem more obvious, something like fairy. A gentle giant type deal.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

"I can't experiment because I need something that deals with fire/flying kingambit but also any random teras". The most valued thing realistically is consistency, which with Tera, as is, is weak asf. And with preview more debatable.

I don't think tera will ever comfortably fit in gen 9. Too many changes outside of it like recovery nerf, lack of scald and general power creep made it naturally heavily offensive. As people have already discussed, gen 9 will never be 8. Great Tusk is THE spinner, hazard stack is potentially an issue, and defog is essentially dead, there's no actual comparison between 8 and 9.

 

[MegaScizor32]

Is it time to ride the Garganacl Ban Train again?

Everybody hop in, Choo Choo! *Train Whistle sounds*

Next Stop: Salt Cure is the most broken form of a "Poison Status" ever seen in Pokémon since it can't miss, it deals damage when hitting, said damage can be boosted by the ATK stat, it can hit SE, between turns damage is high, and between turns damage vs Water/Steel Pokémon is absurdly high-station

i dont even think Salt Cure is the problem. Its ability Purifying Salt is. The fact that it is immune to all status makes it harder to beat. Throw on the fact it halves all ghost attack damage and we see why this ability is broken.