You're giving up your whole argument again lol. How is teambuilding more variable if I need to account for surprise teras I can lose to? It's limiting.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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It’s at the point where you see a lot of the viable teams stack mass offense presence, because the player has 6 options to surprise you with a Tera, maybe 5 if they’re running a suicide lead
one wrong switchin, or one crit, or flinch, or you miss, or whatever.
and the game is a runaway.
its why you see all the pure stats and power at the top of the ladder, whether it’s rain spam, suicide + 5 strong threats, triangle setup sweepers, etc.
these teams don’t need a backbone lol, they can just throw bodies at the other side until something clicks and they get runaway.
one wrong switchin, or one crit, or flinch, or you miss, or whatever.
and the game is a runaway.
its why you see all the pure stats and power at the top of the ladder, whether it’s rain spam, suicide + 5 strong threats, triangle setup sweepers, etc.
these teams don’t need a backbone lol, they can just throw bodies at the other side until something clicks and they get runaway.
There are many things outside of tera types that one team cannot account for that will surprise you and result in a loss. I do not understand how saying that I have been swept by a suprise Tera is somehow undermining my POV that Defensive tera give you an option against team archetypes that would normally require 1/2 dedicated defensive switch ins. This game is about creating high probability win conditions, of course you cant build around every single Gambit Tera option, but i think that could be addressed by looking at Gambit itself before Tera?
In my experience it feels way worse to lose at team preview when you match up against a team archetype that you do not have viable means to answer. My team I posted earlier is an example of a team without a hard water check that can still carve out defensive positions against Water spam with the help of an early defensive tera.
I think it is a little short-sited to list Gambit and Valiant as two example of oppressive Tera abusers, I think everyone would agree these pokemon would remain incredibly threatening and viable with a Tera Ban.
Gambit has a combination of insane bulk, strong typing, a busted ability, and access to one of the most over-tuned priority moves in the game.
Valiant can run 5+ viable sets plus booster Speed. Scouting which you are playing against still can cost one or more pokemon even when your opponent has blown tera.
I am strongly of the opinion that we SHOULD try and preserve Tera in Gen 9 as a means to keep this period in competitive mons distinct and fresh compared to what it felt like in Gen 8.
Literally not how this works. More options to pick from does not cleanly translate to actually having more widely varied teams and sets. You're arguing that these two are the same thing or having one inherently means you have the other, when they're two distinct things. The need to account for combinations that you cannot reasonably predict that span so many different types and mons means that you actually have a great strain during teambuilding. There is pressure to counter things you can't know exist just because they can exist, and if they do, you will fold to them.
I think that idea that no matter how great at teambuilding you are, you will always leave yourself open to many Tera combinations that are generally effective, is kinda bad. Like I said above, Tera's power as a mechanic is mostly in how you don't know about it during the match until it's used. I think the amount of information that Tera allows you to withhold from your opponent is a bad thing.
Regardless of your teambuilding skill you are supposed to lose some matchups in this game, whether it's a predictable loss or sometimes you get blindsided by a set even without Tera you cant handle (Losing to Jaw Lock Roaring Moon when you 100% didn't expect it comes to mind). But losing at team preview bc your team does not have a dedicated hard answer to various specific matchups ends up feeling like rock paper scissors, whereas a W against a team you are unprepared for besides playing from a defensive tera angle is rewarding. That team i posted earlier loses to rain a lot still, but I can get a skillful win every now and then because I have Tera water option.
Saying smth like this in regards to Tera should honestly disqualify someone's post from the beginning. This is like saying that DPP and BW are anywhere similar because the relevant moves are generally similar and Dragon types are overpowered. Some stuff like Tusk resembles mons from older metas, but there aren't many things equivalent to many of the Paradoxes, Hisui mons, Kingambit, Garganacl, Gholdengo, the number of viable unaware mons, etc. Even once the meta balances out and some mons get their moves back in DLCs (which will also probably introduce unprecedented threats) SV will still be a very unique generation Tera or no Tera.
Idk, without tera and a possible wide scald distribution again return sounds like the worst possible outcome for the gen.
Specs could see some use, specs battle bond gren definitely seems nasty to switch into with a +1 boost
Okay they may not be the same but they do correlate. We’re also looking at this from a different perspectives . You’re looking at it as tera creating situations where you cant counter things you dont know about.
Im looking at it from the perspective as a player putting tera to my advantage and using it at opportistic moments to beat the opponent. This requires skill both in-game and the teambuilder. Its all perspective based and I see terastillization as a very skill intensive mechanic.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, nor was I arguing against it. What I said was, "I think the amount of information that Tera allows you to withhold from your opponent is a bad thing." This is a game about limited information and making good decisions both in the builder and the match based on stuff you don't know. On that, we agree. Where we disagree is that I think Tera lets you hide too much information for decisions made in the builder, to where you literally cannot account for being blindsided by at least a good chunk of all Tera options. If I lose to Roaring Moon Jaw Lock, I'd probably go "Damn, that was cool, I forgot he had that move, but the loss is fair because I could have reasonably expected him to use it." If I lose to Roaring Moon because out of nowhere it went Tera Electric and beat my defensive H-Samurott, I'd probably go "Wow, how was I supposed to have predicted that one based on the information available to me, that felt unfair." And don't say that's an unreasonable example, weirder replays have been posted here.
Is it not doing that though? Yeah, we're probably viewing this from two different perspectives, but Tera literally does create situations with counters I don't know about and might not be able to reasonably predict. It's also doing what you said, where you can use your own Tera to preemptively create those moments yourself, which is what creates the reaction in the first place. I don't think that's a good thing.
And listen to the minority who want it fully banned. Nah.
In case you guys didn't realize it, this poster is being sarcastic. He/she is one of the most pro-Tera people around.
For Halloween we should label every tier as gen 8 ou.
They can be Tera's strongest soldier and sarcastically ribbing me all they want, as long as we both say we want it banned.
I kinda found this hard to follow, but I think you are focusing too much on what unique pokemon are being played rather than how it feels to play with them?
No, he is saying that Gen 9 has so much more progress-making options than the past, and the presence of Gholdengo itself means that Gen 9 will never be like Gen 8 since it makes getting rid of hazards much harder. Gholdengo is the reason Great Tusk is at 50% usage on ladder and over 80% in tournaments as the most useful and one of the only effective hazard removers. Tera getting banned won't change this.
"Gholdengo is the reason Great Tusk is at 50% usage on ladder and over 80% in tournaments"
Did you misspell King Gambit?
I don't have much to say regarding how hazards are handled in Gen 9 vs Gen 8, but I will say that hazards as a whole feel semi-healthy now as there are so many different types of options available that aren't just "Corviknight Defog" like Gen 8.
Also, thank you everyone for the kind words about my Avalugg-Hisui post! I'm currently working on Calyrex, Frosmoth, Revavroom, Rabsca and Komala OU posts so I'll likely have an analysis up for Calyrex within the week!
Tera Water Avalugg always interested me and I think Avalugg-Hisui would be able to pull off the role better now thanks to the higher attack + Strong Jaw Crunch feasting on Basculegion
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Avalugg-Hisui in Rain: 101-119 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Strong Jaw Tera Water Avalugg-Hisui Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 300-354 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with just 4 EVs that's an assured 2HKO, OHKO with chip. With even a little smaller investment, Bascu is cooked.
Also, thank you everyone for the kind words about my Avalugg-Hisui post! I'm currently working on Calyrex, Frosmoth, Revavroom, Rabsca and Komala OU posts so I'll likely have an analysis up for Calyrex within the week!
Tera Water Avalugg always interested me and I think Avalugg-Hisui would be able to pull off the role better now thanks to the higher attack + Strong Jaw Crunch feasting on Basculegion
252+ Atk Choice Band Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Avalugg-Hisui in Rain: 101-119 (25.6 - 30.2%) -- 0.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Strong Jaw Tera Water Avalugg-Hisui Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 300-354 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even with just 4 EVs that's an assured 2HKO, OHKO with chip. With even a little smaller investment, Bascu is cooked.
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Kingambit isn't the main reason as Great Tusk's usage was very high even before Kingambit became #2 in usage, and was #1 when Gholdengo was #2 in usage and had 80% usage in tournaments. Hazard removal options being severely restricted is the main reason Great Tusk's usage is so high.
All of those surprises at least come with an opportunity cost. Weird scarfer? That's ok, they're locked into a move with no extra power. Weird resist berry? They essentially have no item until its used, which can really limit overall power/speed.
But weird tera? You can lose on the spot and the opponent loses nothing in matchups where that surprise tera isn't necessary. Tera is thus unhealthy in this regard, in that lures have too low of an opportunity cost.
Both of these things can be true. Your POV is valid, it is just less significant than the breadth of tera threats you need to account for.
I highly doubt kingambit suspect would result in a ban, because it covers so many necessary bases defensively. We lost a single ival/enamorus answer and we really feel it already, even if prepping for volcarona was a higher burden. Kingambit would not be borderline broken without tera.
I can't really deny your experience or feeling, all I can say is this: A MU loss is a MU loss, regardless of whether you lost at team preview or realize you had nothing for x mon with y tera later in the battle. We should try to minimize MU losses as much as possible.
This is speculation, but I think they would both be healthy in the tier and not borderline busted if tera was banned. Gambit actually loses to fighting types? Ival cannot suddenly get an extra turn to set up and get stab on its coverage? Much easier to handle.
Gen 9 will be distinct and fresh regardless of whether tera remains or not. Less knock off, less toxic, less scald (for now
), less recovery pp, no defog, stronger hazard setters, and booster energy+paradox pokemon are HUGE differences that will not change. People who fearmonger over SV becoming SS are extremely paranoid. The very fact that Tornadus-T is MID tells us everything: we wont go back bros dw.I think that a lot of these issues could be solved by implementing the viewing of tera types in team preview - there are definitely precedents set for it, and it could make a lot of sense as it would take a lot of the "guesswork" out of dealing with Tera, making it a little easier to deal with
The idea of a tera-less metagame scares me, but a meta in which we didn't have to guess tera types sounds quite a bit healthier. It's a nice balance between keeping the creativity that tera brings while also balancing it.
Having actually gone back to SS OU after a while of not touching it, I still don't understand how anyone can think gen 9 will look anything like it. With the litany of offensive threats introduced in generation 9 after a while you just... throw things at a wall and hope they stick. That will get you 6-0ed in SS OU, lmao. Tera facilitates this throw things at a wall playstyle yes, but even with it gone the sheer number of dangerous, game running away mons will prevent the game from ever getting to that stalemate point that gen 8 got to. Like there are just more runaway offensive mons than there are good defensive ones.Gen 9 will be distinct and fresh regardless of whether tera remains or not. Less knock off, less toxic, less scald (for now
Now if someone happened to hate USUM OU and worried about SV OU going that direction...
I think the reason Tusk is high usage is bc it has an intrinsic 4x resistance to rocks, can set up rocks and spin them (role compression), checks Gambit, and has strong ground typing
I dont really understand how Ghold makes tusk go up in usage when Tusk cant remove agianst gold ?
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