Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Alternator]

And will also be a new tera abuser to boot, and can pass wishes around. Will probably help a little bit with the not very fun meta but a tera test soon after the dlc drops is definitely warranted at this point.

Also on the topic of drops from ubers, I expect Volc and maybe a shaymin-sky quicktest. (on the merit that covert cloakwill make it easier to deal with, even if it ends up going back to ubers like it probably will.) I don't expect anything else to come back until either dlc 2 or if tera gets banned

Clef really likes being a Fairy type, and there's not a ton of steel or poison moves being thrown around as coverage right now so staying a fairy is pretty safe. While it can certainly make use of tera in specific matchups, what makes you think it'd be a team's preferred abuser?

Also, Shaymin-Sky is staying Ubers as long as it has Serene Grace. Seed Flare is disgusting, and there's two OU proper mons that can outspeed it naturally: Dragapult and Zamazenta. The only OU-viable mon in lower tiers that outspeeds is Barraskewda, who can't revenge kill a healthy Shaymin-S.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky in Rain: 277-327 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf and Booster Energy mons can outspeed, but then they're risking a -2 SpD on the switch in, forcing them right back out if Shaymin-S switches out for another special attacker. Covert Cloak users need to deal with 120 SpA and 120 BP on Seed Flare, and you can't out-bulk Seed Flare because Seed Flare + Serene Grass is a fair and balanced combination, so even Eviolite Chansey needs to pack a grass-resistant tera type to avoid a 2HKO at -6 SpD.

Shaymin-S isn't a great Uber because 100/75/75 is bad bulk by Ubers standards, but in OU that's a bit better than Dragapult, so the pixie can stay gone.

(All of that is without going into Air Slash flinch hax, so even if you think you have a counter, you don't.)

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Also, Shaymin-Sky is staying Ubers as long as it has Serene Grace. Seed Flare is disgusting, and there's two OU proper mons that can outspeed it naturally: Dragapult and Zamazenta. The only OU-viable mon in lower tiers that outspeeds is Barraskewda, who can't revenge kill a healthy Shaymin-S.

I totally agree with your point. I do just want to point out a kinda fun calc.

252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 564-668 (165.3 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Outspeeds in rain :) )

So it can revenge kill, I just don't actually think ice fang is that good otherwise and Skewda in general isn't super great w/out flip turn (which I hope it gets back in DLC).

Stinkpost Sunday: Skewda should get strong jaw as another ability. I mean, look at that design!

 

[taziathegreat]

Don’t get me wrong, it probably gets quick banned back into Uber but the whole skymin is so broken it’ll never touch ou talk is a little over stated. Even if it keeps earthpower it’s coverage is extremely dependent on Tera or seed flare BS. While fucking terrifying Seed Flare has 85% accuracy and 8 PP so it’ll always be better in practice than it’ll be in person.

Don’t get me wrong I as long as Tera is an option it’s no way he’s unbanned, but I don’t think he’s so far from competitive that he can’t be tested even for a day.

 

[Moyashi]

Don’t get me wrong, it probably gets quick banned back into Uber but the whole skymin is so broken it’ll never touch ou talk is a little over stated. Even if it keeps earthpower it’s coverage is extremely dependent on Tera or seed flare BS.

Enjoy having your whole team subseeded and air slash flinched to death with little to no recourse.

There's a reason why this is the only Pokemon to ever get 100% ban votes in a suspect for OU. It's a bullshit, unfair and overpowered Pokemon.

 

[taziathegreat]

Enjoy having your whole team subseeded and air slash flinched to death with little to no recourse.

There's a reason why this is the only Pokemon to ever get 100% ban votes in a suspect for OU. It's a bullshit, unfair and overpowered Pokemon.

Dude it did that almost two decades ago.

Like I’m not even saying it’s not broken, cause I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t make it 48 hours, it’s the idea that a mon that is entirely reliant on an 8pp move and a 70% chance happening (hitting and the sp def drop) to even have a chance at beating some of its shakiest checks with an offensive set should never be tested cause of something it did 15 years ago.

And I 100% think it wouldn’t land in ou, 120/127 offensive stats is certainly good but it isn’t impressive anymore, but the external meta game factors like grassy terrain sun being good and Tera, and the admitted X factor in the Subseed set Likely push it over the edge.

 

[Moyashi]

Dude it did that almost two decades ago.

And nothing has changed to make it remotely any more tolerable.

Like I’m not even saying it’s not broken, cause I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t make it 48 hours, it’s the idea that a mon that is entirely reliant on an 8pp move and a 70% chance happening (hitting and the sp def drop) to even have a chance at beating some of its shakiest checks with an offensive set should never be tested cause of something it did 15 years ago.

It's not entirely reliant on seed flare. It abuses all of its traits, but especially its ability and air slash to hax through the few would be defensive checks. All while enjoying the leech seed recovery to further cripple Pokemon.

120/127 offensive stats is certainly good but it isn’t impressive anymore,

but the external meta game factors like grassy terrain sun being good and Tera, and the admitted X factor in the Subseed set Likely push it over the edge.

I'm sorry but... you joking? I don't mean that rudely, but trying to argue that 120/127 offenses aren't impressive anymore is just silly. People seriously overblow the notion that statistical powercreep has gone so far. It would get banned off its bullshit ability to beat any would be check with flinch and subseed bullshit. Not external factors.

 

[taziathegreat]

I should of been more clear, that’s my mistake 120/127 with low base power coverage off common resisted types and no reliable boosting options isn’t that impressive anymore. The stats alone are impressive. But I wouldn’t say it’s offensive skill set is superior to some of the Pokémon currently in ou. Which was my point.

And saying NOTHING has changed or that whatever has changed is that insignificant is kinda a reach tbh. Dragapult alone is a huge change. Not to mention gholdengo or covert cloak ( I know it’s treated like a meme at this point) loaded dice consistently breaking subs, the straight up grass immunities now the fairy type existing thus making poison a decent defensive typing etc etc
Again I think it gets banned, mainly from the sub seed set and external factors I said early but I don’t see how it’s a no question asked never test mon. Especially when the seed flare earth power air slash set isn’t as good as it was in the past, and that’s banking on it retaining earth power.

 

[A_Wild_Noob_Appeared!]

Even if/when the game has gotten powercrept to the point that Skymin not able to consistently perform well, it'll still remain a massive net negative to the tier. It has a far higher probability of haxing through checks than most competitive players would tolerate. Seed Flare drop -> Air Slash flinch -> <finishing move> beats a lot of things from full (including 252 HP Zapdos and Gholdengo), and the chance of that working out is ~30%. Even if it somehow does not end up with a good winrate, it's still not really a competitive Pokemon, and I don't think it'll be seen as tolerable anytime soon.

Unless the game gets so powercrept that in the future everything has 130+ Spe and pseudo-legend level bulk to avoid being worn down on the switch. Which I guess isn't completely out of the realm of possibility given recent trends.

 

[Cheryl.]

Where are my fellow Covert Cloakers we need to defend Serene Grace it has counterplay now!!!

 

[taziathegreat]

Even if/when the game has gotten powercrept to the point that Skymin not able to consistently perform well, it'll still remain a massive net negative to the tier. It has a far higher probability of haxing through checks than most competitive players would tolerate. Seed Flare drop -> Air Slash flinch -> <finishing move> beats a lot of things from full (including 252 HP Zapdos and Gholdengo), and the chance of that working out is ~30%. Even if it somehow does not end up with a good winrate, it's still not really a competitive Pokemon, and I don't think it'll be seen as tolerable anytime soon.

Unless the game gets so powercrept that in the future everything has 130+ Spe and pseudo-legend level bulk to avoid being worn down on the switch. Which I guess isn't completely out of the realm of possibility given recent trends.

I agree 100% I think we’re at the point the conversation’s of unbanning it should be had, and then tabled cause it’s not surviving whatever test it’s given anyway. For the offensive set offensive counter play is fine plenty things can survive a seed flare outspeed and immediately check it. Defense counter is pretty much immunities and 4 times resist which while some good Pokémon fall under that isnt alot.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

Also on the topic of drops from ubers, I expect Volc and maybe a shaymin-sky quicktest. (on the merit that covert cloakwill make it easier to deal with, even if it ends up going back to ubers like it probably will.)

Covert Cloak will never be used against Shaymin-Sky, as it is currently never used against Garganacl. No suspect, direct Uber

 

[Eeveeto]

Shaymin-S without an ability isn,t an Uber Mon for me. However, using Covert Cloak just for it its too much. Like, ok, you can use Covert Cloak on one Mon, but Shaymin will be outspeeding at least 4 in your team (unless hard HO or weather) and will be wearing down your one switch-in (who will be taking hazard damage, cause Covert Cloak means no Boots) with the high Special Attack it has.
Shaymin-S has good defensive checks, but those checks require both no taking hazards damage and Serene Grance not activating, which is not realistic. This all is without even considering Tera for Shaymin user. No point in checking this Mon until GF decides to change the ability.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

If there was enough that could outspeed and one shot it sure, but I don't think we've gotten to that point yet (especially with the dex cut).

Its the fact most offensive mons can be cheesed before they get the hit in, I don't buy that its because "it can cheese zapdos", that's pretending togekiss and jirachi didn't either, otherwise its just any fast offensive mon with a slower "fuck me gently" way killing targets compared to say, a kartana that 2HKO's you without hax.

Its not as impossible to see in OU, its pretty overstated how brain damage proof it is, but I don't see any answers in the meta to fill the niche of keeping shaymin-s under control that wouldn't just make the entire game revolve around it. There just isn't enough that can outspeed and murk it, like running speed boosting iron moth every game sounds more of a reason to keep it away.

 

[Rootb]

Serene Grace Air Slash means, on average, you will not be able to attack when you're slower than the mon attacking you. It is the definition of uncompetitive.

Given competitive pokemon's age, it feels weird to describe it as "maturing", but attitudes on actual unfun gameplay have definitely shifted over the years. It always amazes me what people were willing to put up with in the early generations, and contrasting that with Gen 9's willingness to let Espathra stay banned on vibes alone really kinda brings a warm feeling to my heart.

 

[Harmless]

I often see people randomly bring up how we should suspect whatever uber for ou like giratina-a or now skymin, but I must ask what we as a society would gain from this. You know what ou needs right now. Fucking skymin to flinch and subseed us to death. Even if (gigantic if) it somehow ends up being not broken, it wouldn't provide anything of value to the tier, it'd just be an annoying shithead.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

is this really the mon we're talking about this week? how far have we fallen as a society that someone was able to seriously, with a straight face, bring up the idea of testing shaymin-sky and wasn't immediately laughed out of the forum? why are we bothering to discuss this idea and give it a platform?

 

[Eeveeto]

is this really the mon we're talking about this week? how far have we fallen as a society that someone was able to seriously, with a straight face, bring up the idea of testing shaymin-sky and wasn't immediately laughed out of the forum? why are we bothering to discuss this idea and give it a platform?

(Almost) every opinion should be respected. We should welcome people thinking outside the box and new interesting ideas to improve the meta. Of course, with the freedom of speech, there is also freedom to disagree with such proposals. As things are, it's pretty clear Shaymin-S doesn't belong to OU, but it was still a respectable topic to talk about, very rarely things are 100% decided before debate even begins.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

is this really the mon we're talking about this week? how far have we fallen as a society that someone was able to seriously, with a straight face, bring up the idea of testing shaymin-sky and wasn't immediately laughed out of the forum? why are we bothering to discuss this idea and give it a platform?

When you keep things 100% close minded you can never know when the time is right to bring it up.

See; zamazenta, gen 5 latios, gen 4 latias (which is now unbanned), etc.

That said, yeah Shaymin-s obviously isn't ready for OU but a lot of the reasonings are so close minded that its questionable just how accurate those specific reasons are. Sure, seed flare, air slash, serene grace, but is that really the most impossible thing to beat when generations have been power crept to hell and back, over the years, speed creep makes shaymin look average speed with how many speed boosters and viable scarfers there are, etc. If it was a time where dexit didn't exist and chien-pao was free, I don't think its unreasonable to at least discuss about it, especially with all the dumber shit others have talked about this gen.

Again, I agree its ubers and should stay there for now, but its better to look at it and analyze why and answer counter arguments instead of "are you fucking high?", alternator made a good post explaining how it still has the upper hand in most situations.

Btw in response to all those that think Arceus-Bug has any chance to exist outside its prison of ubers, are you fucking high? 120/120/120/120/120/120 monotype is ridiculous let alone with that movepool.

 

[Bakugames]

is this really the mon we're talking about this week? how far have we fallen as a society that someone was able to seriously, with a straight face, bring up the idea of testing shaymin-sky and wasn't immediately laughed out of the forum? why are we bothering to discuss this idea and give it a platform?

Suspecting shaymin sky would be a waste of time but can you be less of an ass about it. You have said much worse and said stuff that contributed much less in this forum to be like this

 

[artificialdeath]

Suspecting shaymin sky would be a waste of time but can you be less of an ass about it. You have said much worse and said stuff that contributed much less in this forum to be like this

Maybe it was a bit rude, but certain discussions in past gen OUs, mainly the viability rankings, have been blacklisted for a reason. Seriously talking about Giratina, Arceus-Bug, and Shaymin-Sky in OU is on the same level as most of those topics

 

[Bakugames]

Maybe it was a bit rude, but certain discussions in past gen OUs, mainly the viability rankings, have been blacklisted for a reason. Seriously talking about Giratina, Arceus-Bug, and Shaymin-Sky in OU is on the same level as most of those topics

you can shut down a discussion without being an ass about it, and honestly after someone replies once, letting the topic die would be less annoying to everyone else vs just constantly talking about how stupid it is lol

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Maybe it was a bit rude, but certain discussions in past gen OUs, mainly the viability rankings, have been blacklisted for a reason. Seriously talking about Giratina, Arceus-Bug, and Shaymin-Sky in OU is on the same level as most of those topics

Viability rankings is a bit different, you're talking about blacklist shitpost 'glaceon is A tier' vs. discussion on whether something that never graced the tier has the potential to show face again or what would be the requirements for such a possibility. The former is utterly useless, the later is at least education if not a point that could well lead into something serious, there's potential growth or an updated stance on the matter.

Like half of us felt the same way about zama...."no are you fucking high???" and look where we are now. Imagine if it got blacklisted day 1 because its historically never been OU.

 

[BijouMode]

Viability rankings is a bit different, you're talking about blacklist shitpost 'glaceon is A tier' vs. discussion on whether something that never graced the tier has the potential to show face again or what would be the requirements for such a possibility. The former is utterly useless, the later is at least education if not a point that could well lead into something serious, there's potential growth or an updated stance on the matter.

Like half of us felt the same way about zama...."no are you fucking high???" and look where we are now.

I would say I still feel that way about Zama because it's just... a matchup dog. If you have a team to largely relies on physical threats, Zama would be able to pretty much win from team preview, and while it does provide a well-needed check to Gambit (kinda) and Bax, I feel like that comes at the cost of it being overwhelming if your team doesn't run something like Enam, IVal or Zap. Even then, however Zama can still flip the matchup in its favour with a well-timed Tera Steel or Electric.

Nevertheless, I feel like with DLC 1, more counters like Clef and Gliscor will return, making it more balanced, but still...

252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 332-392 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[artificialdeath]

Viability rankings is a bit different, you're talking about blacklist shitpost 'glaceon is A tier' vs. discussion on whether something that never graced the tier has the potential to show face again or what would be the requirements for such a possibility. The former is utterly useless, the later is at least education if not a point that could well lead into something serious, there's potential growth or an updated stance on the matter.

Like half of us felt the same way about zama...."no are you fucking high???" and look where we are now.

With Zama and Kyurem-B, their flaws were apparent to many players from the beginning. People had been calling for a potential Zama unban last gen, because it was clear that Zama was perhaps the weakest box legend designed. Meanwhile, Shaymin-S has consistently been ridiculous for generations, and Giratina and Arceus are up to the standards one would associate with 680-720 BST legends (even the weakest Arceus types still have access to 120 stats across the board + a movepool that rivals Mew's). People have taken those stupid shitposts about power creep too seriously - if you look at most Uber unbans in recent gens, they're usually due to mechanical changes or direct nerfs. In the rare case where it is an issue of power creep, it's usually non-legendaries/mythicals like Blaziken, which have lower stats. Arguing about most of these is about as constructive as arguing for Glaceon or base Calyrex to be put on the VR.

 

[taziathegreat]

is this really the mon we're talking about this week? how far have we fallen as a society that someone was able to seriously, with a straight face, bring up the idea of testing shaymin-sky and wasn't immediately laughed out of the forum? why are we bothering to discuss this idea and give it a platform?

for what it’s worth, most of the convo wasn’t about suspecting skymin. But push back against some users belief that the Pokémon will always be broken and should never be suggested for a potential suspect test