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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
A certain single Pokemon had received an overwhelming amount of support throughout the thread and the survey to the point that we are conducting an emergency vote on it.
Multiple other Pokemon are receiving noteworthy amounts of support as well and we will continue to monitor those developments in hopes of proceeding with a standard council vote (non-emergency) in the coming days.
Multiple other Pokemon are receiving noteworthy amounts of support as well and we will continue to monitor those developments in hopes of proceeding with a standard council vote (non-emergency) in the coming days.
bye bax D:
it must be dipplin, i know it
OHHHH NOOOO
THEY SAY HE'S GOTTA GO!
GO GO GODZILLA
OHHH NOOO
THERE GOES TOKYO!
GO GO GODZILLA!!!!
The reason I'm not that impressed with these calcs is because I could post the same thing except with Gengar instead, which isn't even ranked on the viability ranking thread.
Like literally, Gengar has 5 less sp atk, and could run Nasty Plot, Shadow Ball (over Dark Pulse), Focus Blast, and Psychic/Sludge Wave. You even get STAB on Sludge Wave.
I concede that 125 speed vs. 110 is significant, and that 70/90/90 bulk is a bit better than 60/60/75, (albeit Life Orb recoil makes the modest bulk increase less significant). I suppose you could make the case Dark Pulse is more spammable than Shadow Ball due to lack of immunities, but those moves are still pretty comparable.
Like I said before, I don't like theorymonning, but considering Gengar isn't considered viable, it seems wild to me that people think Darkrai is so laughably broken it doesn't even deserve to be tested.
Edit: fwiw Gengar even gets Knock Off like you mentioned for Darkrai too
We reached a verdict, but I have some things to do for the Jewish new year and we are still waiting on a few votes. I’ll post tonight.
my top 5 is
- Has a bunch of sets and works on many archetypes. Probably suspect worthy
- Hard to judge at the moment but the mask boost seems insanely strong. Requires hazard control and won't outspeed everything but it's definitely strong and also probably suspect worthy
- Assuming Finch is alluding to a Bax QB, Veil teams will be weaker but still, it's a great support that redefines non-hstack HO teams
- Insane Tera abuser that fits on the aforementioned Veil teams. Very nice matchups into a bunch of common mons too
- Very strong glue and hazard setter that outclasses defensive Landorus and enables stall and balance teams
damn that was fast
On another topic, how are you guys checking/countering ogerpon fire?
will not say i'm cooking with this one, because the mere presence of u-turn and/or any other form of ogerpon ruins this
Serizawa about to activate the Oxygen Destroyer.
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I’d support a Darkrai retest just to quash the “it hasn’t been tried since Gen 5” line of reasoning and people actually will have to see it in action with recent proof for/against it.
Godchilla on his way out, make way for the Ogre Lady
Ogerpon masked formes' passive damage buff is officially live on PS as of this post.
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blaziken Flame Wheel (manually set to 100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 147-174 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Mold Breaker Ogerpon-Hearthflame Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Blaziken Flame Wheel (manually set to 100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Mandibuzz: 147-174 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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Enjoyment - 5/10
Egregious issues before are still around, and its cope to say the meta feels skilled when you just setup screens and unga bunga. Its definitely starting to feel like I'm facing the samey teams with little room for innovation. There's so few narrow checks for each threat.
Balance - 5/10
Again, same thing, game doesn't feel skilled rn. Bax is broken, screens are annoying as fuck, tera test can't wait.
- 5 Feels like an obvious one to go next, QB won't be controversal at all seeing how no one can defend this thing. The only 'defending' is that its ninetales pushing it over the edge, but it was over the edge pre-DLC anyways and likely the next suspect.
- 3 I don't know, haven't seen enough of it and the ones I seen didn't put in the work. I'm giving it a split middle rating cause on paper I see how its broken, but in practice I'm not seeing it and feel silly giving it a 1 without more experience.
- 1 lol he sucks
- 3 Leaning on needing a suspect, but again like Manaphy I don't have enough experience with or against this thing, I'm always optimistic when it comes to just "wow big numbers" cause I'm used to getting one shot by the current shit anyways.
- 2 or 3, I can't remember which I put, and I do think ninetales is some bullshit but I don't think its QB worthy bullshit atm either. IMO screens are the problem, ninetales is just there and a good applier of them, and having a good snow setter is more beneficial so I stop seeing you uncreative fucks copy and pasting the same king/tusk/valiant comps every game for an occasional snow team. The issue is everyone is running it for veil anyways so I'd rather see Aurora Veil isolated as the problem than Ninetales.
- 1, Nah I can't see it, would it be funny to start DLC2 with it? Maybe, but 50 or 60% chance to succeed with the sleep move sounds less balanced than OHKO moves... Sure venomoth sleep powder doesn't rule OU because hitting that sleep doesn't mean it 6-0's you cause its fucking venomoth, but Darkrai can single handedly close games off that 60% chance of hypnosis hitting... if skymin is unrealistic for being able to potentially flinch hax through teams, darkrai doesn't sound less unrealistic with land hypnosis - > nasty plot - > sweep.
Woah Royaldispenser talking about Volc crazy! I put volc as my mention since tera was already mentioned to be getting some treatment soon, and the recent council vote was 5/10, which is a very controversial and inconclusive vote given that whether you worded it to "unban volc" or "keep volc ban" it would literally amount to nothing, even if volc was still in the tier currently and this vote happened, it wouldn't result in a ban, in general it doesn't lay to rest that volc deserves to stay banned just that its better to suspect test it rather than drop it immediately in the tier. I definitely wish I could see the reasonings of each voter, as its clear some do want to give it a chance but others are too wary about simply releasing it. The only bad thing about the timing RN is Veil would make volc significantly easier to setup with.
I didn't mention this in the survey, and I don't think it should drop, but I wanted to ask what exactly makes more illegal than 
? This is more of an argument to fucking kill that wish pixy, cause even Shaymin doesn't get T-wave while being much more frail and worse typing. Considering we're even suggesting darkrai comes down with its 60% chance to win the game, this deserves a mention even if its unrealistic. I don't see why King's Rock is banned but jirachi who's entire concept is flinch cheesing is allowed, and if it is, then I don't see why Skymin and King's Rock aren't allowed then.
Why yes I was just flinched 8 times in a row by a jirachi, how can you tell?
Egregious issues before are still around, and its cope to say the meta feels skilled when you just setup screens and unga bunga. Its definitely starting to feel like I'm facing the samey teams with little room for innovation. There's so few narrow checks for each threat.
Balance - 5/10
Again, same thing, game doesn't feel skilled rn. Bax is broken, screens are annoying as fuck, tera test can't wait.
- 5 Feels like an obvious one to go next, QB won't be controversal at all seeing how no one can defend this thing. The only 'defending' is that its ninetales pushing it over the edge, but it was over the edge pre-DLC anyways and likely the next suspect. - 3 I don't know, haven't seen enough of it and the ones I seen didn't put in the work. I'm giving it a split middle rating cause on paper I see how its broken, but in practice I'm not seeing it and feel silly giving it a 1 without more experience. - 1 lol he sucks - 3 Leaning on needing a suspect, but again like Manaphy I don't have enough experience with or against this thing, I'm always optimistic when it comes to just "wow big numbers" cause I'm used to getting one shot by the current shit anyways. - 2 or 3, I can't remember which I put, and I do think ninetales is some bullshit but I don't think its QB worthy bullshit atm either. IMO screens are the problem, ninetales is just there and a good applier of them, and having a good snow setter is more beneficial so I stop seeing you uncreative fucks copy and pasting the same king/tusk/valiant comps every game for an occasional snow team. The issue is everyone is running it for veil anyways so I'd rather see Aurora Veil isolated as the problem than Ninetales. - 1, Nah I can't see it, would it be funny to start DLC2 with it? Maybe, but 50 or 60% chance to succeed with the sleep move sounds less balanced than OHKO moves... Sure venomoth sleep powder doesn't rule OU because hitting that sleep doesn't mean it 6-0's you cause its fucking venomoth, but Darkrai can single handedly close games off that 60% chance of hypnosis hitting... if skymin is unrealistic for being able to potentially flinch hax through teams, darkrai doesn't sound less unrealistic with land hypnosis - > nasty plot - > sweep. Woah Royaldispenser talking about Volc crazy! I put volc as my mention since tera was already mentioned to be getting some treatment soon, and the recent council vote was 5/10, which is a very controversial and inconclusive vote given that whether you worded it to "unban volc" or "keep volc ban" it would literally amount to nothing, even if volc was still in the tier currently and this vote happened, it wouldn't result in a ban, in general it doesn't lay to rest that volc deserves to stay banned just that its better to suspect test it rather than drop it immediately in the tier. I definitely wish I could see the reasonings of each voter, as its clear some do want to give it a chance but others are too wary about simply releasing it. The only bad thing about the timing RN is Veil would make volc significantly easier to setup with. I didn't mention this in the survey, and I don't think it should drop, but I wanted to ask what exactly makes more illegal than ? This is more of an argument to fucking kill that wish pixy, cause even Shaymin doesn't get T-wave while being much more frail and worse typing. Considering we're even suggesting darkrai comes down with its 60% chance to win the game, this deserves a mention even if its unrealistic. I don't see why King's Rock is banned but jirachi who's entire concept is flinch cheesing is allowed, and if it is, then I don't see why Skymin and King's Rock aren't allowed then.Why yes I was just flinched 8 times in a row by a jirachi, how can you tell?
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Damn, I guess tidy up furret is too much for OU
Sharing my own survey responses:
Metagame enjoyability: 5/10
I like the new stuff, but I have a lot of issues with the current meta (as is always the case with a brand new meta). I'll elaborate on this regarding individual mons.
Metagame balance: 2/10
This meta is an absolute mess right now, but it's not the Council's fault or anything. A new meta's always gonna be a bit of a mess for a little while. When the Veil problem is dealt with in some way, this'll inevitably go up.
Baxcalibur: 4/5
This thing was already an absolute demon pre-DLC1, but I think Scale Shot makes it a fair bit more infuriating. Loaded Dice makes it easy to wear down in a vacuum, but since it's such an automatic fit on Veil squads it becomes an unstoppable force after one turn of setup. I'm not opposed to this thing getting yeeted out of the tier overnight, but I think it's the biggest symptom of a large problem (which I'll discuss when we get to that section).
Manaphy: 3/5
Really scary mon, but I feel like it's struggling to get work done against some offensive squads right now. I think RestTalk with Take Heart or a simple Take Heart+Acid Armor with 2 attacks is scary, but I also think Tail Glow is vile into bulkier archetypes. It's inevitably gonna get better as the metagame slows down a tad.
Blood Moon: 1/5
It's good (I sold this thing short earlier) but it's VERY linear. I don't think this mon is problematic, at least right now.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 4/5 or 3/5 (I have horrible short-term memory)
Yeeeah, this thing's a demon now that we know how its masks work. I don't think there's any really safe defensive counterplay against it, it's strong on many of these HO squads (including Veil), and it's extremely good into the slower balanced/defensive teams that might eventually pop up after the Veil problem is addressed.
Alolan Ninetales: 5/5
I don't think Light Clay, Dual Screens, Aurora Veil, and/or Snow Warning are the problems. I think an Ice-type mon with base 109 Speed getting all of these tools, plus Encore, is the problem. I think Alolan Ninetales is the grand facilitator of everything broken about this metagame right now; this is the mon that makes Bax completely unkillable, this is the mon that can facilitate Manaphy and Ogerpon-H unlike anything else, this is the mon that makes Frosmoth not just a fringe-viable pick but a legitimately terrific setup sweeper in and of itself, and I don't think our Screens+bulky setup sweeper problem will be fixed if we get rid of Baxcalibur, or Manaphy, or Ogerpon-H, or any number of setup sweepers since this thing can facilitate them all. At that point, if we're banning numerous mons that abuse the support Alolan Ninetales specifically is capable of providing, why not just address the Alolan Ninetales problem?
I specifically think this mon is the problem because we've had numerous Screens setters, and a Veil+Snow Warning, setter in the past that weren't problematic in the slightest long-term. Dragapult was never broken as a Screens setter, and neither was Grimmsnarl; similarly, Abomasnow was only really just a fringe-viable pick to enable Frosmoth, and not a problematic mon in and of itself. Yes, there were points in time where Light Clay was up for discussion, but I feel like those problems fixed themselves since it was only really a handful of mons that were abusing Screens so well. In this case, there are several mons that are specifically abusing the things Alolan Ninetales facilitates.
Retesting Darkrai: 3/5* (I explained this in my written section on the tiering survey)
I don't think Darkrai would be so overtly problematic that it has no chance at ever getting tested for OU. That said, this metagame is not the right time for it. I want Darkrai to have an objective, fair chance at dropping rather than it being another in a very long list of Veil abusers that'll inevitably be brought down and quickbanned shortly afterwards. I'm giving it a 3/5 because of a long-term goal for it, but in the context of this meta right now I'd give it a 1/5.
Retesting Urshifu-S: 1/5
Why was this guy, of all things, brought up? I'd much rather see Urshifu-R come back, and I'd probably give that a 1/5 too. Maybe Urshifu-R would be acceptable in a DLC2 metagame, but certainly not this meta. As for Urshifu-S: not in a million years. If DLC2 powercreep is so crazy that Urshifu-S with Swords Dance is somehow not broken in an OU context, I think we'd be seeing a lot more things mentioned on whatever that tiering survey would look like.
So uhh... yeah, no, definitely not Urshifu-S. This mon is oppressive.
Regarding a Volcarona retest (the other thing I brought up in the written feedback section, and something that was brought up after the Council vote):
I want to see Volcarona get a fair chance to get its ass out of OU. I agree with the outcome, but don't entirely agree with the methodology, behind its original quickban. But, as is the case with Darkrai, this is not the right time to do it. Volcarona in a tier infested with Veil+Baxcalibur cores would be even more problematic than Bax is right now; I don't think this mon should be dropped in a meta that would effortlessly let it set up and exploit its Tera diversity to the fullest degree.
Regarding Kingambit (this wasn't something I brought up, but I may as well mention it):
Yeah, this is still an insanely good mon. It somehow feels BETTER in DLC1 even though it explicitly received jack shit as far as movepool additions go, perhaps because mons like Tusk (still an excellent mon btw) have less room to breathe than they used to. That said, I don't think this should be suspected again, at least until after an eventual Tera suspect.
Regarding Terastallization:
I hate this mechanic with a passion, but I don't think DLC1 is the time to address it. Let's see what DLC2 brings (since we're getting a TON of new mons as well as some new Tera shenanigans that aren't limited to just Ogerpon), and address it once we have an idea of what an OU that isn't getting flipped on its head after a couple months looks like.
Metagame enjoyability: 5/10
I like the new stuff, but I have a lot of issues with the current meta (as is always the case with a brand new meta). I'll elaborate on this regarding individual mons.
Metagame balance: 2/10
This meta is an absolute mess right now, but it's not the Council's fault or anything. A new meta's always gonna be a bit of a mess for a little while. When the Veil problem is dealt with in some way, this'll inevitably go up.
Baxcalibur: 4/5
This thing was already an absolute demon pre-DLC1, but I think Scale Shot makes it a fair bit more infuriating. Loaded Dice makes it easy to wear down in a vacuum, but since it's such an automatic fit on Veil squads it becomes an unstoppable force after one turn of setup. I'm not opposed to this thing getting yeeted out of the tier overnight, but I think it's the biggest symptom of a large problem (which I'll discuss when we get to that section).
Manaphy: 3/5
Really scary mon, but I feel like it's struggling to get work done against some offensive squads right now. I think RestTalk with Take Heart or a simple Take Heart+Acid Armor with 2 attacks is scary, but I also think Tail Glow is vile into bulkier archetypes. It's inevitably gonna get better as the metagame slows down a tad.
Blood Moon: 1/5
It's good (I sold this thing short earlier) but it's VERY linear. I don't think this mon is problematic, at least right now.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame: 4/5 or 3/5 (I have horrible short-term memory)
Yeeeah, this thing's a demon now that we know how its masks work. I don't think there's any really safe defensive counterplay against it, it's strong on many of these HO squads (including Veil), and it's extremely good into the slower balanced/defensive teams that might eventually pop up after the Veil problem is addressed.
Alolan Ninetales: 5/5
I don't think Light Clay, Dual Screens, Aurora Veil, and/or Snow Warning are the problems. I think an Ice-type mon with base 109 Speed getting all of these tools, plus Encore, is the problem. I think Alolan Ninetales is the grand facilitator of everything broken about this metagame right now; this is the mon that makes Bax completely unkillable, this is the mon that can facilitate Manaphy and Ogerpon-H unlike anything else, this is the mon that makes Frosmoth not just a fringe-viable pick but a legitimately terrific setup sweeper in and of itself, and I don't think our Screens+bulky setup sweeper problem will be fixed if we get rid of Baxcalibur, or Manaphy, or Ogerpon-H, or any number of setup sweepers since this thing can facilitate them all. At that point, if we're banning numerous mons that abuse the support Alolan Ninetales specifically is capable of providing, why not just address the Alolan Ninetales problem?
I specifically think this mon is the problem because we've had numerous Screens setters, and a Veil+Snow Warning, setter in the past that weren't problematic in the slightest long-term. Dragapult was never broken as a Screens setter, and neither was Grimmsnarl; similarly, Abomasnow was only really just a fringe-viable pick to enable Frosmoth, and not a problematic mon in and of itself. Yes, there were points in time where Light Clay was up for discussion, but I feel like those problems fixed themselves since it was only really a handful of mons that were abusing Screens so well. In this case, there are several mons that are specifically abusing the things Alolan Ninetales facilitates.
Retesting Darkrai: 3/5* (I explained this in my written section on the tiering survey)
I don't think Darkrai would be so overtly problematic that it has no chance at ever getting tested for OU. That said, this metagame is not the right time for it. I want Darkrai to have an objective, fair chance at dropping rather than it being another in a very long list of Veil abusers that'll inevitably be brought down and quickbanned shortly afterwards. I'm giving it a 3/5 because of a long-term goal for it, but in the context of this meta right now I'd give it a 1/5.
Retesting Urshifu-S: 1/5
Why was this guy, of all things, brought up? I'd much rather see Urshifu-R come back, and I'd probably give that a 1/5 too. Maybe Urshifu-R would be acceptable in a DLC2 metagame, but certainly not this meta. As for Urshifu-S: not in a million years. If DLC2 powercreep is so crazy that Urshifu-S with Swords Dance is somehow not broken in an OU context, I think we'd be seeing a lot more things mentioned on whatever that tiering survey would look like.
So uhh... yeah, no, definitely not Urshifu-S. This mon is oppressive.
Regarding a Volcarona retest (the other thing I brought up in the written feedback section, and something that was brought up after the Council vote):
I want to see Volcarona get a fair chance to get its ass out of OU. I agree with the outcome, but don't entirely agree with the methodology, behind its original quickban. But, as is the case with Darkrai, this is not the right time to do it. Volcarona in a tier infested with Veil+Baxcalibur cores would be even more problematic than Bax is right now; I don't think this mon should be dropped in a meta that would effortlessly let it set up and exploit its Tera diversity to the fullest degree.
Regarding Kingambit (this wasn't something I brought up, but I may as well mention it):
Yeah, this is still an insanely good mon. It somehow feels BETTER in DLC1 even though it explicitly received jack shit as far as movepool additions go, perhaps because mons like Tusk (still an excellent mon btw) have less room to breathe than they used to. That said, I don't think this should be suspected again, at least until after an eventual Tera suspect.
Regarding Terastallization:
I hate this mechanic with a passion, but I don't think DLC1 is the time to address it. Let's see what DLC2 brings (since we're getting a TON of new mons as well as some new Tera shenanigans that aren't limited to just Ogerpon), and address it once we have an idea of what an OU that isn't getting flipped on its head after a couple months looks like.
Archaludon is DLC2.
Ogerpon learns Low Kick.
Good riddance to Bax; it deserved it during HOME, and DLC has made the decision even clearer. Sure you could argue that it made Ting Lu + Zapdos builds a little less obnoxious, but people rejected this kind of reasoning for Gambit (even if it was not banned) so. Idk how some people fnd it balanced in all honesty, as it's probably the most ridiculous pseudo since Garchomp in its debut gen. Pretty amazing that they decided to give it an ability that nullified the most common method used to cripple overbearing SD/DD sweepers lol.
after the gambit suspect, my faith in the community to make the right decisions has waned considerably, and if we couldn't manage to ban something as blatantly broken as kingambit i certainly don't trust us to keep volcarona where it belongs
These next 2-3 months are gonna be interesting. Chaotic I dare say.
now watch it not actually be bax and finch has jebaited us all
It get's superpower and knock off too! Also I thought that physdef moltres would check it until I saw this
+3 252 Atk Hearthflame Mask Tera Fire Ogerpon-Hearthflame-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres in Sun: 357-421 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
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