Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Bax- 3

idk guys if there was a guy with a chainsaw running around, would you ban the chainsaw (bax) or the guy wielding the chainsaw (a-tales)? ban tales and see if bax can sustain itself without its free screens and defense boost. i def see a future where he follows a-tales to ubers after she gets banned
OH NOOOOO
THERE GOES TOKYO
GO GO GODZILLA

manaphy-3
i think its pretty nasty on paper but it doesn't feel TOO effective? maybe i havent seen it in the right hands yet

a-tales- 5
enables way too much brainless HO currently with bax being enabled by it, manaphy enabled by it, people using a-slash and frosmoth to abuse the snow more. this has to go before we can talk about what it enables. i want to see bax and manaphy without this thing bailing them out from taking full damage

ogerpon-spicy gal- 4

its nasty, nasty in sun, nasty with the trailblaze and SD set, just a nasty pokemon and the more discoveries we made how its ability worked made it more nasty.

ursaluna blood moon- 2
its whatever, it's slow and can be killed by most special attackers worth a damn pretty easily.

darkrai- 4
but only after we clean house of everything else, mostly for the experience of it being in OU before it's banned

shifu single strike-1
why are we even talking about this being balanced here.

shifu rapid strike-1
why are we even talking about this being balanced here.
 
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`ShadowTwo said:
Just a little news passed unnoticed :

Darkrai lost Thunderbolt in Gen 9, he has just Thunder now
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On the flip side, he has Blizzard. Do you know what that means?

You are right, Tera Ice Nasty Plot is another Snow sweeper that now lives crazy shit under Veil + Snow:

252 Atk Protosynthesis Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Darkrai in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 186-220 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Not a serious post. No, no need to ban Ninetales, I want my Sandslash, Weavile and Frosmoth to be good. And no, no need to test Darkrai with Tera allowed).
 
I frankly think we lose very little from letting Darkrai roam the tier for at least a week. Worst comes to worst we just banish it again. MX42 is right in that it at least deserves to be tried out between the nerfs and lack of attempts to test in over a decade.

Also reminder that the arguably better Iron Valiant is seen as fine and a bunch of random shit got Vacuum Wave to revenge.
 
Karxrida said:
I frankly think we lose very little from letting Darkrai roam the tier for at least a week. Worst comes to worst we just banish it again. MX42 is right in that it at least deserves to be tried out between the nerfs and lack of attempts to test in over a decade.

Also reminder that the arguably better Iron Valiant is seen as fine and a bunch of random shit got Vacuum Wave to revenge.
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You know what yeah hopefully Darkrai does get dropped so it will shut up the crowd that wants to drop every broken Uber back into OU. I really wonder what will happen if we drop something with stats comparable to Mane/Bundle, one of the best attacking types in the game, sleep + setup opportunities, and coverage that it can make full use of Tera with. I disagree with the person who said that it'll be balanced because of how offense heavy the tier is - unlike things like Hoopa, it has 125 speed, so while it may be hard to get in sometimes, it can still put a lot of pressure on offense considering just how much of the tier it outspeeds (not even factoring in how it can Tera into types like Fairy or Poison to deal with the checks that would exist like booster val, pult, or zama)

Even on the off chance it is somehow balanced, do we really need another setup sweeper with base 120-140 offenses/speed in the tier? Slightly more defensive counterplay has been added, but Valiant was kinda stupid all throughout pre-HOME and HOME, and it really wouldn't have been much of a loss if it was banned tbh
 
I would like to know why you only included Ninetales-A in the survey, and not also Light Clay or Aurora Veil. It would have been much more relevant than, uh, Urshifu-Single Strike (Why? No one asked that)
 
Survey Responses:

:baxcalibur: 5 Broken af. Once it gets a scale shot off at +2 it's over. You can't kill it before it sets up because veil+snow makes it hilariously bulky, the counterplay just doesn't exist.

:manaphy: 4 this thing hits ridiculously hard with tail glow, add tera and veil into the mix and it becomes unwallable. It isn't that fast and vulnerable to being revenge killed though.

:ninetales-alola: 2 Alolatales isn't really broken, but it enables things that are. I'd like to see how it does after bax and manaphy are banned. Super vulnerable to bullet punch, super vulnerable to taunt, etc.

Ogerpon Hamburger Helper 3 Getting +1 attack just by clicking tera is pretty fucking scary, grass/fire is a very good stab combination and it has knock off. I'd jold off on banning it though, its sets are very predictable.

Ursaluna Blood Moon 1 Haven't really seen much of this, but when I did it was pretty manageable. It has recovery which is cool, but it's slow and no guts means its damage output isn't quite as high as regular ursa's.

:darkrai: 1 Darkrai actually loses to focus punch charmander, I know this because I played mystery dungeon. But seriously, get rid of the broken shit before we start talking about retesting. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it later for shits and giggles

:Urshifu: 1 fuck urshifu all my homies hate urshifu
 
`ShadowTwo said:
I would like to know why you only included Ninetales-A in the survey, and not also Light Clay or Aurora Veil. It would have been much more relevant than, uh, Urshifu-Single Strike (Why? No one asked that)
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Probably because most of the discussion has been around A-tales' capacity to enable this stuff, as Abomasnow Veil teams were more of a gimmick than anything (despite a number of broken setup sweepers existing before DLC1). ATales has a pretty good speed tier, even for Gen 9, it gets Encore, and Ice/Fairy is a much better typing for threatening things offensively. While I wouldn't be complaining if Light Clay/Veil were gone altogether, I think the consensus people have reached is that those are only as broken as a) the setup sweepers and b) the enablers that make use of them.
 
SwaggySammy44 said:
:darkrai: 1 Darkrai actually loses to focus punch charmander, I know this because I played mystery dungeon. But seriously, get rid of the broken shit before we start talking about retesting. I wouldn't be opposed to trying it later for shits and giggles
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If we get to a meta where tera is gone darkrai could potentially be fine, but right now i'd rather not test Darkrai. If tera goes I would say go for it though.

Still voted a 5 though as I think its been long enough to where its worth testing again.
 
The2009Zapdos said:
I feel like I need to talk about this specifically.

Terastallization is perhaps THE MOST controversial aspect of this deteriorating generation of pokemon (ironic since it's the generational gimmick). But gimmick or no gimmick, it's so incredibly powerful it got Volcarona banned. And Volcarona in the past was a really hit or miss pokemon -- it can sweep, but it wasn't going to a lot. Between Tera Grass and Ground buffing Giga Drain and Tera Blast respectively, it just lead to it being outright banned. And the single fastest quickban in OU history also came from tera which even more ironically enough, was from the fastest pokemon in the game: Regieleki. To put it lightly, Regieleki with max speed and a boosting nature outspeeds Booster Energy Iron Valiant naturally. Now you might be thinking: Wow. So it's fast. But what did it do with that speed? The answer: gain hella momentum and sweep lategame. Last gen Regieleki was barely a UU pokemon only hanging on because the generation ended. This was because the fact that any ground type just... walled it. But this gen the fact that it can essentially Volt Switch for free chip on a lot of things for solid damage, equipped with a new Tera Ice Tera Blast (or Water for Iron Treads who did in fact gain traction during the 1 day this was legal) to handle those everso relentless Ground types, it became better at late game cleaning than arguably Kingambit. So it was rightfully banned alongside Volcarona in the category of "Ubers because Terastallization".

The OU council has many a reason for why it didn't act on tera so long. Maybe it's because they want to preserve the generational gimmick. Maybe they wanted to not have a repeat of generation 8 and actually wanted to keep a generational gimmick. Maybe they feel like they didn't actually need to act on it. But whatever the case is, they've seen the damage it caused themselves -- hence the bannings of Volcarona and Regieleki. Hell even right now at the moment this was posted, Volcarona is still in Ubers -- which should say how strong it actually is with terastallization in the picture.

Now is the time to act. Terastallization needs a new suspect test. It has caused genuine damage to the player base in a very negative way. Whatever your side of the argument is for protecting tera, after this whole "Baxcalibur is broken" craze is done, tera needs to get looked at. And as much as I love the thing, it needs to be banned soon.

I am very aware of this generations developments. Between the start of the gen with Flutter Mane and Last Respects Houndstone, to Garganacl being clamored for a ban, to Chien Pao and Chi-Yu being bonkers powerful, to Walking Wake releasing and being "almost impossible to deal with", and even the HOME metagame with Screens Teams gaining notice and Ursaluna claiming to be banworthy. I've seen it all. It doesn't matter if it's the banning of Palafin, Annihilape, Shed Tail or anything else I didn't mention, I was there. Through thick and thin, both ausma and Finchinator have been active in the forum conversations, and to everyone else being in the forums, voting on wether something should or should not be banned, it has been working so far. We are nearing the end of the general complete Paldean Pokedex -- and you guys have proven to make things right. So please, I know you're working on it, but please save gen 9. I really liked playing this gen before the HOME metagame and been keeping tabs on everything right now. I'm not a member of your council myself so the future of Scarlet and Violet is in your hands. All of your hands. I send all the love in the world to you to make the right choice <3 <3 <3
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To give my own take, I think it was very much the fear of a cultural backlash that is why the OU Council was so wishy-washy surrounding Tera. When the news came out, I saw a lot of Twitter users who only played casually joking about how Smogon was afraid of playing the game in an "interesting" way, implying that they just cheated out of Dynamax because they wanted to stay playing the same game, rather than the mechanic being unbalanced. That's how I see it, anyway.
 
This meta is filled to the brim with overwhelming breakers and set up sweepers. Why in the frick would you wanna introduce another one in a Tera meta no less.

Let’s focus on what is currently in the meta instead of trying to add more to it.
 
5camp said:
I must admit to being baffled at this seemingly universal agreement that Manaphy is busted. How have the surroundings changed so much from gen 7 that it's now busted? It's a stall and balance breaker that struggles against offence and oh would you look at that, offence is king this generation. It's incredible on webs (everyone runs boots) and loves z-moves (lol).

Is it tera? Ah yes, finally it can tera out of its famously awful defensive typing: Pure water.

It's very good on screens. Every setup sweeper is good on screens. It's not like it hasn't existed alongside Alolatails before. If something has changed, it's not Manaphy, it's Alolatails. Snow boosting its defence, the complete lack of defog due to Gholdengo, hail not chipping your own team. If there's a problem, it's with Alolatails
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Tapu Koko was pretty good. Mega Latias was pretty good. Toxapex was pretty good. Ferrothorn was pretty good. Chansey was pretty good. Serperior was pretty good. Mega Venusaur was pretty good. Kyurem-Black was pretty good. Kartana was prett
 
Just reposting my teambuilding guide from the pre-DLC thread, with new mons added around where I expect them to be, plus a few placements were adjusted to account for very notable buffs such as Alomomola and Baxcalibur. A few completely outclassed Pokemon have been removed such as Masquerain. This will need to be updated following any quickbans and will be swayed somewhat by the release of VRs once the council/forum mods get around to that.
TopHOME meta mons (Mostly unchanged)DLC mons
T16 :great-tusk: :kingambit: :iron-valiant: :gholdengo: :dragapult: :zapdos: :enamorus: :ting-lu: :slowking-galar: :samurott-hisui: :cinderace: :garganacl: :landorus-therian: :sneasler: :walking-wake: :zamazenta::ninetales-alola: :manaphy: :gliscor: :ogerpon-hearthflame: :kommo-o:
T32:alomomola: :amoonguss: :heatran: :dragonite: :greninja: :dondozo: :moltres: :corviknight: :hatterene: :glimmora: :roaring-moon: :garchomp: :iron-moth: :rillaboom: :tornadus-therian: :scizor::munkidori: :clefable: :ogerpon-wellspring: :ogerpon-cornerstone: :ursaluna-bloodmoon:
T48:hoopa-unbound: :toxapex: :ursaluna: :torkoal: :rotom-wash: :brute-bonnet: :meowscarada: :sandy-shocks: :cresselia: :clodsire: :pelipper: :basculegion: :basculegion-f: :azumarill: :volcanion: :thundurus-therian::ogerpon: :empoleon: :ribombee: :torterra:
T64:tyranitar: :muk-alola: :skeledirge: :moltres-galar: :iron-treads: :scream-tail: :maushold-four: :blissey: :enamorus-therian: :breloom: :iron-hands: :lilligant-hisui: :grimmsnarl: :pawmot: :slowking: :ceruledge::fezandipiti: :okidogi: :jirachi: :mandibuzz:
T80:hydreigon: :armarouge: :floatzel: :decidueye-hisui: :articuno-galar: :arcanine-hisui: :quaquaval: :kleavor: :indeedee: :cyclizar: :polteageist: :hawlucha: :lokix: :ditto: :mew: :goodra-hisui::weezing-galar: :crawdaunt: :dipplin:
T96:iron-jugulis: :frosmoth: :azelf: :zoroark-hisui: :overqwil: :pincurchin: :toedscruel: :glastrier: :rotom-heat: :slither-wing: :talonflame::sandslash-alola: :ninetales: :mamoswine: :mienshao: :vikavolt:
 
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Karxrida said:
I frankly think we lose very little from letting Darkrai roam the tier for at least a week. Worst comes to worst we just banish it again. MX42 is right in that it at least deserves to be tried out between the nerfs and lack of attempts to test in over a decade.

Also reminder that the arguably better Iron Valiant is seen as fine and a bunch of random shit got Vacuum Wave to revenge.
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This is a very reasonable take and idk why more people don't agree with this. I don't understand why people put so much value on theorymoning when over and over again the actual results are often very different. For example, the majority thought Wwake was broken at first, and then that changed. Same thing with Zamazenta a few months ago. And then there's pokemon with uber stats that appear broken on paper, than turn out not be (Kyurem-B, up until it got icicle spear) or are even kind of mid (Hoopa-U). Finally, even Kingambit usage didn't take off until a fair bit of time into the new gen when people realized how good it was.

Furthermore, I also don't understand people that think mons in ubers can only be tested if they "add something" to the tier, but a mon that is a new release isn't held to this standard. I understand being incentivized to test an uber if it clearly would add something to the tier (eg Gen 5 excadrill being freed to give more hazard control options), but why does this HAVE to be the case? Why should it matter whether the mon is ubers or not, shouldn't we hold everything to the same standard? (Disclaimer: I know not all people against testing previous ubers like Darkrai etc. think like this, but some do.)

On a separate note, I also don't like the idea of hammering down quickbans super early into a new meta unless something is egregiously egregiously broken. Again, take zamazenta - it was one or two council votes away from being quickbanned to ubers and if that had happened I'm sure the majority of the community would still think it was too much for OU to this day.

For example, it's really hard for me to discern at this moment whether bax/veil is broken, or if the meta hasn't had time to adapt yet. Obviously, these teams are getting spammed everywhere, but idk how much of that is due to shiny new toy syndrome vs. them actually being OP. I feel like half the people on the ladder are playing to just test new things, and not playing to win. In other words, the meta hasn't had time to adequately adapt to all these veil teams (or prove unable to adequately adapt). Like okay you're spamming a bunch of new mons in the 1500s and getting bodied by bax/veil; what do you expect if you aren't explicitly preparing for the strategy half the ladder is using? I'm not saying we shouldn't ban egregiously broken mons right away, but I've played a lot of games inside the top 100 on the ladder since the DLC dropped and nothing is standing out to me as egregiously broken (if anything tera fire ogerpon and blood moon seem just as bad as bax/veil).

If it was up to me, I'd have released Volc, Darkrai, and maybe even Zama-C right away. Then, I'd give it 10, maybe 14 days just to wait for shiny new toy syndrome to wear off and let the meta adapt (and if anything was super super busted during this time period I'd ban it. After that, I might even ban as many as 5-7 things and suspect test some of them by reintroducing them into the tier. While I'm pretending I rule the world, I'd also like to add that suspect tests to reintroduce quickbanned mons should be at a 50% threshold since you're otherwise stacking the cards by making it a 60% threshold to unban vs. the 60% threshold to ban via a traditional suspect. Anyway, this is all food for thought, so thanks for reading.

tl;dr not unbanning mons based on theorymoning, and banning mons that aren't egregiously broken before the meta has had time to adapt makes no sense to me
 
figure I'd throw my irrelevant thoughts in given the ~40 or so games I've done since DLC1 came out--



Enjoyment of the tier: 8, havent been an OU person since very late gen 6/early gen 7 but the meta rn is unironically banger. idk if it's just all the previous bans y'all have done but one could call it 'pog.' Gambit's funny and makes up for how bad I am, Samurott makes me feel like I'm smart for pressing buttons, and while i had no faith in it at first, I LOVE GHOLDENGO SO MUCH.

Balance of the tier: 3, we all know why, everyone's talked about why. Whatever council does will probably help in general. When it's not snowveil or webs it's almost always a good time, though!


new bans:
:baxcalibur: - 5, everyone else has said enough about it lol, i feel like mocking anyone using it on ladder right now.
:manaphy: - 1, Exotic64 convinced me wholeheartedly that the thing's fine right now, although before I was at a 2 or 3. I've yet to be completely bowled over by a Manaphy thanks to my current team just not giving a damn for the webs it's frequently on, and I've only run into a handful of them - there's enough speed control going around that Manaphy has to gamble on surviving after one tail glow. It doesn't help people consistently leave it in on Thunder Wave Gholdengo, which then means a dead Manaphy.
:ninetales-alola: - 3, entirely fueled by mister 5 up top. Once the best abuser of snowveil's gone I'm sure Ninetales will return to being one of many options for enabling HO and all will be fine in the world.
1694896722100.png
- 2, I'm worried about future potential of this demon but right now she's adorable and is actually a pretty good offensive check to a bunch of things. I'm all for it. Not at all related to being my favorite type combo.
1694896775502.png
- 1, shit's mad funny. Anytime it comes in there's a 50/50 chance it gets blown up or it blows something up. Easily one of the funniest mons rn and it's completely fair and balanced.

retests:
:darkrai: - 5, if nothing else I want to see what happens. Darkrai's probably still too strong, but losing out on tbolt is yikes and relying on hypnosis is yikes. If it's still broken, then yeah throw him in the garbage where he belongs, but the dude's been stuck in limbo for so long that he deserves his chance at redemption.
:Urshifu: - 1, no thank you. I've seen enough One Punch Man for one lifetime, thanks, if I wanted to see more I'd go on Youtube.
:volcarona: - not on the ban sheet but 2, I wasnt here to see it go but that thing doesnt deserve to be here.


other thingies:

Every other ogerpon form looks fun as hell, and i hope one of them drops to UU so I can smash face there.
Rain's as annoying as ever but by the sounds of it im just bad, which is true
I dont like valiant but i don't want it tested, heck that mon even if its peak design
I don't want shaymin sky thank you!
 
Darkrai with Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, and Psyshock or Sludge Bomb cleaves through OU. If you chip Fairy-type Pokemon not named Clefable, or Valiant, which is OHKOed, you can win with Psyshock at +2. If you really hate facing Fairy-type Pokemon and Ninetales-Alola, you can run Sludge Bomb over Psyshock, but Psyshock destroys things such as Toxapex, Fezandipiti, and Kommo-o. Psyshock also nails Sneasler too, which is a bonus. Since none of you need to see Sludge Bomb calcs for things outside of Fezandipiti, I didn't bother calcing Sludge Bomb.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 279-329 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 395-465 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 461-543 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 205-242 (52 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 348-411 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 398-468 (99.7 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 247-292 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Fezandipiti: 276-325 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 302-356 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (It will never run this much bulk)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 289-341 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (It will never run this much bulk)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 437-515 (85 - 100.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Something such as Baxcalibur being OHKOed by Dark Pulse at +2 shows that Darkrai pretty much shreds anything slower while still having a fantastic speed tier. It can also run Choice Specs if it has to with Knock Off as a move to force progress against stall with hazard chip. Darkrai is still heinous and has no business dropping to OU. Anyone seriously talking about Darkrai being reliant on Hypnosis has no clue what they're talking about as it'll be a poor option on Darkrai. Darkrai absolutely has no business being OU. We do not need another overtuned wallbreaker that also happens to be fast in OU.
 
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I kinda find it funny how many who want Darkrai to drop to OU is simply for morbid curiosity and nothing more. Some people just want chaos and to watch the world burn. Respect.

Jokes aside, I am curious to who people think the best Teal Mask Pokemon are so far? (returning and new. No mons that were in the game beforehand)
 
Crimson Chris said:
I kinda find it funny how many who want Darkrai to drop to OU is simply for morbid curiosity and nothing more. Some people just want chaos and to watch the world burn. Respect.

Jokes aside, I am curious to who people think the best Teal Mask Pokemon are so far? (returning and new. No mons that were in the game beforehand)
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Seriously, let’s also drop Giratinna-O. At least that mon will bring something positive to the tier.
 
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