Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Firstly, I'm not sure why many people here are proclaiming HO as brain-dead. Maybe it doesn't need as much long term strategy as balance but it's far from brain-dead click buttons - U just got predicted lol.

I'm convinced that half of these stall freaks just want to have the forum open on the other screen while they click recover for the 5th time in a row. Literally the definition of brain dead, way too easy to recover from mistakes or misplays. Meanwhile a misplay in HO probably means death.

On to the mons.

Gambit: I'm not totally confident on it being 100% broken. It is a fantastic revenge killer for HO, the next best being Iron Valiant who can often only revenge once. Scarf mons are ok but kinda a bit bad vs non HO, and many of the best scarfers would prefer a different item.
Revenge killers are truly necessary. This meta is very setup oriented. Not just in HO, you all know the HO setup abusers. Even balance and stall have a large amount of setup, gliscor, dondozo, zamazenta, blissey, cresselia, gholdengo, sinistcha, Scizor, clefable, garganacl, there are so many Pokemon with the potential to setup and sweep - even easier to do it when a mon is locked in with scarf.
On the other hand, gambit makes many things way too easy. It's even somewhat viable to slap 5 shitmons and gambit on a team, you'll probably do ok. The relatively easy damage boosts are somewhat uncompetitive - it does need them for many of the scary calcs though, so it is possible to counter/outplay. 3/5

Ogerpon wellspring: this thing is probably as crazy as hearthflame. Effectively 120 BP high crit move is probably way too strong. Too easy to click. Does wall manaphy and many horrible rain abusers. Still probably 4/5.

Manaphy: probably look at this after ogerpon goes. Whatever you say, 100 base SpA and Speed is mid this gen. SpA is workable, but the speed is a bit of a pity and as a result the mon needs either rain or webs. 2/5

Gliscor: oh I really hate this mon. Toxic heal is a genuinely uncompetitive ability. In a game where you win by doing damage to opponents, an ability that lets you recover damage just by existing is inherently uncompetitive. That also goes for regenerator.
Imagine if there were offensive versions of those abilities: degenerator, where the opponent loses 1/3 of their HP when you switch in, or toxic attitude, where if you are poisoned the opponent takes the dot instead of you. Those would be unquestionably broken, and definitely banned. So why the double standards for toxic heal and regen?
(Gamefreak don't steal my ideas for gen 10.)
Aside: Regen, Scald, Pult, and Corv were probably the biggest factors in making gen 8 as stale and lifeless as it currently is. Get all those shits out. Gen 9 was better without scald.
Anyway, Gliscor has "checks and counters" if you count weavile/mamo. Protect toxic heal is one of the most brain-dead "strategies" in the tier. Even the defoggers don't beat him - anything that is ok vs EQ/toxic doesn't like to eat a knock off. Corv doesn't beat him either - maybe you get max layers off but you'll still be u-turning as gliscor gets up a spike. Ban this bastard, regardless of a gholdengo ban, it still wouldn't help, he beats all the removal.
Also don't come at me with Ting Lu or H-samurott. Both should go too.
Ting Lu is another bastard mon that nothing ohkos. To use the HO analogy again, something that ohkos everything with little to no counterplay is uncompetitive and banworthy. Why not this shit that nothing ohkos? It's way too easy to use. It's just not ok that there is a mon that you can freely bring out, with a 1000% chance that the offensive threat in front of you can't ohko you or in many cases even 2hko, and probably can't even do anything that would put Ting Lu in a bad position, regardless of predictions or misplays. That is uncompetitive. It's also got ubers level stats and way too easy spikes, barely balanced by its lack of recovery.
Hrott has a blatantly uncompetitive move. Don't think it's too crazy out side of that move but deserves a ban for that.
5/5 for these 3 bastards.

Gholdengo: the above 3 need to go first. Maybe after if glimmora and clodsire are problems gholdengo needs to go. Probably the biggest problem is the defoggers all lose to it - but minus gliscor, great tusk will beat it consistently again (hopefully). Probably deserves a look. 2/5.

Moon may indeed be a problem. Dark dragon is not the best attacking combo, but tera fly acro is very hard to beat without gambit. Worth a look. 4/5.
 

Finchinator

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:Manaphy: is a 4 from me.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe OR 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow / Take Heart
- Acid Armor
- Scald / Surf
- Stored Power

This Manaphy has been absolutely demonic recently. TG + 3A is already strong as many of you know and it would be unfair not to mention it, but double dance Tera Poison Manaphy is easily one of the best win conditions in the tier. Counterplay includes faster Encore, Unaware Pokemon with the right tools to dispatch it, and keeping up constant offensive pressure. There are few non-"extreme" measures besides these mentioned above, and that is concerning towards the balance of our metagame I would say. It also works very nicely on Sticky Webs as Booster Energy Pokemon no longer get the jump on it.

I do believe Manaphy is "playable" as it can be beaten, but I would support a suspect at this time. I would not commit to a ban vote yet at all, but Manaphy has continued to get better and is finally abusing Tera and its position in the format in a capacity we initially thought it would.

:Roaring Moon: is another 4 from me.

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Acrobatics
- Knock Off
- Brick Break / Roost / Taunt / Earthquake

This set is very hard to counter. Notice how I say counter as timely Tera types, priority stacked (especially if it lacks Roost), Sticky Webs, and other conditions can minimize it, even assuring it is limited in terms of entry and effect throughout an entire battle. Maybe it will not be useless, but with certain conditions, it is at least checked. The main thing is that forcing these conditions warps teambuilding and preserving them can warp gameplay when you are facing an onsalught of offensive pressure. I find this dynamic to be unhealthy and that is why I support a suspect test and potentially a ban on Roaring Moon.

:Gliscor: and :Gholdengo: are both catching my eye with the former being a 3 and the latter being a 2. I do not think either would get banned via suspect now and I do not know that acting on them now will be the most popular, but the hazard dynamic in our tier deserves a deeper dive at some point. Gliscor also leads to a lot of stalemates and even warps how we teambuild as we look to avoid Spikes weakness, Toxic vulnerability, and so on with a certain level of desperation right now. I think Gliscor is the most evil Pokemon in the tier right now and a suspect/ban should be seriously on the table moving forward. Gholdengo and the Defog blocking conundrum is not priority #1 for me personally, but I do think it should be discussed, too.

:Sneasler: is something that I struggle to assign a number (probably 2, but closer to 3 than 1), but it can be very dumb. Grassy Terrain pairs very nicely with it and Dire Claw can make games mind-numbingly stupid. Tera Ghost and Tera Fly bolster its offensive presence, but I still find it checkable or counterable, it is just very strong and has a chance to either situationally overwhelm certain checks or put them out of commission with the right status.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: is incredinly strong, but I do like that we have established some counterplay with the hazard metagame limiting it, the rise of Amoonguss and Roost Dragonite, and the prevelance of Heavy-Duty Boots Dragapult at least being a situationally irksome presence (not that it is a true check). I think that it is a clear radar or survey caliber Pokemon, but not my biggest concern at the moment.

:Kingambit: Kingambit is still lame to me and almost broken by its nature and consistent role with Tera. But I do not find it to be unplayable or a priority relative to some others. It is going to fall at a firm 3 for me in that I will happily support another suspect on it, but I expect other things to get more attention and they likely will. If this is the top dog, I understand it and will happily go down this path though. I find the Tera Fighting set to be underrated and classic Tera Fairy to still offer a lot of unique avenus to it that will create free kills or even sweeps. Also, the item slot can do a ton like Heavy-Duty Boots can prolong its life many times over while Air Balloon can make specific Gliscor variants set-up fodder, even ending games if you are not careful.
 
At what point would it be possible to look at Spikes as a whole? I really genuinely believe that the million spikes setters we have ae the problem, but I understand that we ban pokemon first so I don't think it should be looked at now, but at the same time Spikes have been a problem in the tier since the very start of pre-Home and have been ridiculous even on non-Ghold teams.
 

KamenOH

formerly DynamaxBestMeta
1, roaring mid and shitsler??? Theyre overhyped, especially that rrrodent with the claws. Is it even still OU? If you're that arsed over sleep, just ban sleep. One and done, no complex ban on sleeping 2 mons. If it causes sleep, its gone, simple as.
2, Maybe I'm just fuckin built different because the meta seems fine to me. Not great mind you, but its alright, and compared to last gen? That's pretty good. Strong offensive cores make progress well, while if you're a rat bastard you can pull some strings and have Ting Lu and Gliscor just live forever. Is it stall? Thank god no, but its hellacious defense, and isn't that what people wanted?

I don't get the hype over balance, or why it's "the best." Its slow, only matches up well against itself, and is boring as hell. Stall has the perverse enjoyment of watching your opponent suffer a slow death by a thousand cuts, while offense and its hyper brother are battles hard fought, and victories well won. The fuck do you even do on balance besides switch around for five turns at a time? Its a obnoxious form of stalling that not even proper stall does, with its confidence in its walls. Are you battling, or slowly whittling away at a block of marble, expecting a masterpiece like you're some fucking renaissance artist? Pick a side, and commit. Learn, develop strategies that aren't just "ooh my gyatt switches into their skibidi, lemme do that". If what balance is nothing more than a couple blocks keeping a scale level, then offense and stall are just stretching out the arms of the scale. It's still balanced at the end of the day.
 
Survey answers:

I still find Tera a broken and anti-fun mechanic, but the survey specifically mentioned to not mention Tera, so I didn't.

Enjoyable - 3 : Too many constraining threats such as Ogerpon-Wellspring, Kingambit, Roaring Moon, and Gholdengo (for reasons other than the other three). Terastal is ugly as usual and artificially skyrockets the power level of the tier. I find it unfun trying to play around the increased number of 50/50s in a Tera meta where a single mistake can cost you the game. This is not to say this didn't happen in previous gens, but in a Tera meta, it happens more.

Balanced - 3 : As I said before, there are too many constraining threats. Gholdengo's ability to make it a lot harder to remove hazards makes every offensive threat more broken. This is before going into Tera, which is a snowball mechanic a lot of the time that messes with counterplay.

Manaphy - 3 : It can be obnoxious to play around, but it generally doesn't have recovery and can be positioned around with offensive pressure, Encore, and Salt Cure. I wouldn't mind a suspect, but I don't think the support is there for a ban, so I would wait until Ogerpon-Wellspring is banned, leading to it losing one of its best checks.

Roaring Moon - 4 : This mon is stupid, and the set Finchinator posted is almost never useless and can put in good work every game because of its consistency if played right. It's really constraining to face because of the Attack boost from Booster Energy. This is not to say that I think Booster Energy should be banned though as it's only broken on Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, and Roaring Moon. Knock Off was a noticeable buff that pushes it from good to broken in my opinion.

Gliscor - 2 : Gliscor is better than it ever was in previous generations with Spikes, but I believe the true issue is Gholdengo as it's still possible to outmuscle and outlast Gliscor in the long run. Just don't get too comfortable trying to remove hazards a lot.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4 : It's not as broken as Ogerpon-Hearthflame, but this is still a very ridiculous mon with limited counterplay outside of Amoonguss and blowing Tera Grass on a physical wall. Yeah, there are no shortage of faster mons if you include Booster Energy, and it's limited by hazards, but if the user of Ogerpon-Wellspring doesn't mindlessly get it out on the field even when it makes no sense to, it will put in a lot of work.

Sneasler - 2 : Sneasler can take over games if it gets a crucial BS hax turn with Dire Claw, but I find it okay to manage outside of that. It is strong but probably not broken.

Kingambit - 5 : It's still incredibly obnoxious since it has narrow defensive counterplay factoring in Tera. You need to preserve your Kingambit checks and limit using them against other mons they need to check because this thing's endgame strength is so ridiculous, and that really limits your options.

Gholdengo - 5 : The entire tier is based around the hazard game because of Gholdengo, and even when Gholdengo isn't brought to match, the players definitely have considered it in building because of its ability. Good as Gold blocking Defog makes it hard to get rid of hazards. It's the reason why Great Tusk has had such high usage since the game's release because it's the only semi-reliable hazard removal we have. And I say semi-reliable because it is very possible to overwhelm Tusk with offensive pressure to the point it never even ends up clicking Rapid Spin.
 
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Manaphy I'm gonna give a 4. Tail glow and take heart can be very annoying to deal with, though wellspring and water absorb clodsire wall it. I just dont think it is very fun to deal with.

For roaring moon, I'm honestly gonna give it a 1 or 2. I feel that it is just over hyped right now because tera flying acrobatics is quite nasty to deal with after a boost, as well as the addition of knock off. But this is also one of the pokemon that requires actual skill to defeat or wear down and in a hazard heavy metagame where it usually runs booster energy, it can be worn down quite significantly.

I gave gliscor a 3. It's not absolutely busted, but it's absolutely annoying to deal with. Poison heal is very powerful alongside protect allowing you to heal off any damage you do take. It does have a water and ice weakness that can taken advantage of though and it's not the pokemon you want to really tera with such a good typing

Sneasler is a 1. Just because it has a good move in dire claw does not make it busted, I think it's a good check to many of the OU's more problem mons

Gholdengo is a 4 or 5 for me. If this was banned, the hazard meta would change significantly and when I play games where it's not there and hazard abusers are abundant, it's quite a relief.

As for kingambit, I'm gonna say 5, but that's mainly because of tera and how you really don't know what it's going to tera into.
 

ausma

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Frick it; let's make it a trend for the OU Council to share their survey thoughts.

:manaphy: 4 - Very strong and worthy of action
Manaphy is an extremely oppressive wallbreaker and setup sweeper; I think I would feel better about it if it hadn't had two incredible setup options under its belt, but sadly this is the reality we live in. Take Heart and Tail Glow are both options that are extremely potent but in different ways which means you're going to need different forms of counterplay to properly respond to them. As Finch said, holistically dual dance is where it goes from extremely strong to broken territory. Whether you're using Tail Glow or Take Heart for offensive boosting, a single Acid Armor is enough for it to become far harder to break before it seizes trades or just wins on the spot.

I personally think Tail Glow is more potent on a game-to-game basis as it in tandem with Manaphy's great natural bulk, coverage, Tera Poison, and its initial typing makes disruptive counterplay far more difficult to pull off. Notably, however, Manaphy's setup style creates a very strict timer against you, forcing you to actually damage it to stop Manaphy from doing too much damage of its own or just outright winning since it doesn't need too many turns before it becomes a behemoth and isn't reliably shut down by disruptive utility. I don't think it has a healthy dynamic on the tier as the counterplay it forces from you is not only really awkward but also is inconsistent enough due to the set variety to ensure that it can take 2 or 3 for 1 trades.

I ranked it 4 instead of 5 because I do think counterplay does feasibly exist and it's not an autowin Pokemon, but it is pretty easy to support and its counterplay is awkward in a vacuum due to its set variety and how its main sets work. I think it's very suspect worthy, maybe worth a QB if SCL indicates a more broken trajectory for it.

:roaring-moon: 5 - Top priority
Roaring Moon is fucking stupid. Knock Off was pretty much the perfect tool for Roaring Moon to really achieve that level of brokenness it should've likely had since the start. Roaring Moon having access to a high power, easy-progress making option makes a wide variety of offensive sets extremely easy to run such as Choice sets and offensive pivot sets, which in and of themselves are very good, but the set that Roaring Moon was always known for in Booster Energy Dragon Dance remains top dog and is now broken proper since it gives its primary STAB a very noticeable power boost and the ability to leave a big parting gift for defensive stopgaps in the form of item removal.

However, the biggest problem I have with Roaring Moon now is the sheer potency behind Knock Off as a breaking option and utility move alike. Choice Band and offensive pivot sets now being actually useful on a game-to-game basis means that differing forms of counterplay (Unaware Pokemon for example) are going to be punished hard if you get the set wrong, especially by Choice Band. Stable counterplay just doesn't truly exist for Roaring Moon right now; at least Manaphy has some stopgaps. I think Knock Off Roaring Moon is the closest thing to a win button the tier has atm and it's very egregious to me. I would personally prioritize Roaring Moon for a QB or a suspect.

:gliscor: 4 - Very strong and suspect-worthy, but not a priority
I think Gliscor is the best Pokemon in the tier right now, but that's not really an uncommon take. Gliscor has the very rare attribute of being a predominantly defensive Pokemon that is actually oppressive. The reason I think this is for a lot of complicated reasons, but it can be mainly summed up to how unreasonably good it is at creating progress and how removing it from the game requires having several resources crucially compromised in some fashion. Anything immune to the combination of Earthquake and Toxic will usually mean that it gets a Spike up and 13-25% of its HP back, but that's assuming it'll only ever do those things. Swords Dance, Facade/Wingbeat, Knock Off, Taunt, and Tera turns are all tools I've seen run that either just give it winning power, the ability to create absurd levels of progress, or block you from progressing all while keeping itself healthy at the same time. It is a definitively S-tier Pokemon in my eyes; you honestly can run it however you want and on 90% of structures as long as you give it Earthquake and Protect.

I don't think it's a particularly demanding kind of oppressive in the same vein as Manaphy and Roaring Moon, but it has felt absurdly difficult to make progress against as it can deny or consistently respond to common methods that pave the road for win conditions with its shocking longevity and resilience. Many teams have found ways to adapt to its presence in some way, but very few are consistent and exploitative (such as those against Garganacl) at the same time. Furthermore, I am unsure if those ways are particularly reasonable when some (such as Worry Seed Amoonguss) have very diminishing returns into non-Gliscor structures. I believe a suspect is very warranted for Gliscor in the long term if it continues to be oppressive to this degree, but it being less overtly broken does mean it's not as pressing.

:sneasler: 2 - Strong and worth monitoring, but not a priority or currently suspect-worthy
Sneasler has become extremely strong now that its best enabler and partner has become a genuinely great Pokemon. It being such a natural partner to Rillaboom (Band and Swords Dance alike) make it far harder to handle since Rillaboom itself not only enables Unburden but also can aid in positioning and overwhelming Sneasler's primary checks in bulky Flying- and Poison-types. Even aside from this, Dire Claw is still a broken click and it's a phenomenal offensive pivot with a premium Speed tier.

It's the best it's ever been because it's had the best support it's ever had, but its core problems are still fairly apparent and arguably a bit worsened by the presence of new Pokemon like Gliscor and an uptick in Dondozo. I believe it can feel very imbalanced into offensive structures and it can be extremely consistent as a win condition into bulkier ones with a dubious tool in Dire Claw to unfairly cheese its way out of weaker matchups. But, counterplay is still fairly reliable and there is a bit more of it. I can see it becoming more problematic in the future especially since Dire Claw adds an arguably uncompetitive aura to counterplay, but for right now I don't really see it as anything unreasonably crazy when it isn't the most demanding thing to respond to compared to other things.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 3 - Strong and worth monitoring, but not a priority
Ogerpon-Wellspring can feel really stupid sometimes, and it very much can be, but I believe the tier is mostly in the growing pains stage of reacting to it. In SCL and ladder we've been seeing some counterplay sprout in bulkier Dragon-types like Roost Dragonite and widespread Amoonguss/Rillaboom usage which can be fairly annoying for its gameplan. But its movepool can add an element of difficulty to reacting to it, even with dedicated prep. It can use a cheeky coverage option like Play Rough to snipe Dragon-types, something like Knock Off to make consistent progress and collectively disrupt its counterplay, or it can opt for Spikes and pivoting. Plus, sometimes Tera Ivy Cudgel can just brute force you anyway. I do believe it's more reasonable to react to compared to the other candidates on this survey just because its STAB combination and Speed tier are far from infallible and 4MSS can sting it particularly hard at times, but it is something that requires a lot of respect and can be noticeably oppressive, so it is worth monitoring as the tier continues to grow.

:kingambit: 2 - Strong and worth monitoring, but not a priority or currently suspect-worthy
Kingambit has more fish to fry in this metagame, for better or for worse. I still feel the same about Kingambit as I did when we suspected it, which is to say extremely strong and a top-tier win condition, but one that serves a net positive, Melmetal-style presence in the tier. I think it provides teams a very solid, all-around tool to react to some more oppressive and easy-to-position threats, and the counterplay from HOME is still fairly rigid and arguably a bit better thanks to wider movepools, as well as expanded a bit from the return of Pokemon like Kommo-o. Of course, it's still Kingambit, but seeing as we already suspected it and it's still doing what it's always done, I honestly value its strength in this more volatile metagame and feel it's something tangibly more positive than negative rn. I can see us revisiting it, but not for the foreseeable future.

:gholdengo: 3 - Strong and worth monitoring, fairly suspect worthy but not a priority
Gholdengo's presence in the metagame can be seen as oppressive, but mostly due to its relationship to the hazard sub-metagame. Being a Pokemon that can mitigate and even outright beat a massive chunk of removal options due to Good as Gold, its great stats, typing, and movepool is a recipe for something very naturally top-tier. I do think there is a very serious argument for suspecting it due hazards being the most negatively influential they've been in generations. Gholdengo itself isn't broken but its build and ability to deny so much removal so consistently leaves an extremely tangible effect on teambuilding and the viability of removal options as a whole. However since its style of oppression is so abstract and isn't something that's completely ruining games on the spot due to counterplay existing and it not creating an autowin scenario (far from it), I do think it's a kind of Pokemon that moreso warrants evaluation in a more stable metagame state.
 
Even aside from this, Dire Claw is still a broken click and it's a phenomenal offensive pivot with a premium Speed tier.
If Sneasler is broken, I feel it isn't tied to Dire Claw. Dire Claw is best used on the Protective Pads set, but that set seems drastically worse post-home to me due to gaining another, extremely splashable check in Gliscor, making the goal of Fishing for poisons & status a bit more of a lost cause, especially given Gholdengo usage is still pretty high. The main set that seems like it would be broken would be the G-Terrain SD Acro set, which is a very powerful win-con that can easily find a setup turn and is difficult to revenge kill, esp w/ Tera Flying on deck. I feel on this set, you would much rather other coverage moves to deal with the limited counterplay more reliably, like Gunk Shot to not get paralyzed by Zapdos / Burned by Moltres or Night Slash / Tera Blast Ground to blast past Gholdengo and Slowking-G with a bit of chip. Zapdos and Moltres did take a hit with the DLC, but I feel like they are beginning to see more usage again & alongside the Gliscor / Gholdengo that are on most teams (which are often run together) I feel there are less situations where clicking Dire Claw over other options is the play. That being said, I've do understand the frustration, as I've been in the nightmare scenarios whether my Dragonite randomly gets put to Sleep in the past, but these situations feel few and far between and more often, its the other traits like the doubled speed, potential Tera, and strong coverage between Acrobatics / CC that gives me trouble.
 
Enjoyment: 5. It's interesting that this question was brought up a few pages back, and at the end of the day...in ou you simply have the widest range of the best mons available to pull off your favorite strategies as effectively as possible, I guess. Even with this factor though, it pains me to not give it a higher rating, but...as someone mentioned earlier on, most of the meta's either gliscor spam on various structures or that wellspring ho still running around (and other variations of it too). Hopefully things can get better moving forward in hopefully a month or so.
Balance: 3. That said, the aforementioned issue alongside the most random of things threatening to end games on the spot certainly makes the state of things feel dicey (see more below).
Manaphy: 4 (technically 3.5). It either doesn't ever get a proper chance to get started, or it does (especially due to unpredictability) and threaten to just end games outright. Though it does take a fair bit to get going, it can really punish you for not reacting to it quickly enough. Thankfully it's not too threatening off the bat (unboosted surf doesn't even ohko cinderace lol) but...yeah.
Roaring moon: 5 (technically 4.5). Knock off from this is really scary to switch into, even unboosted; especially when you don't know the rest of its coverage moves. Said lack of coverage moves+middling physical bulk may sting a little bit in the wrong matchups, but that's why it's only 5 by technicality.
Gliscor: 5. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...3328-new-survey.3727806/page-105#post-9812754
Wellspring: 3. It is a very potent mon, but the sheer linearity it's burdened by helps keep it in line somewhat. Also, having a non-passive water immune mon is quite the valuable and unique trait for it to have, while also making the decision to tera have even more nuance.
Sneasler: 3. This isn't really on the basis of dire claw (even if it's really annoying sometimes), but moreso the sheer effectiveness of its unburden set, which with a defense boost from terrain seeds+tera can easily get off one, and possibly even two, swords dances to just end games outright. And frankly, gunk shot is infinitely better in such sets imo; not only does it avoid contact as mentioned above, it also cleanly kills said contact ability birds from much higher hp ranges if not outright from full, while even having good odds to 2hko dnite through multiscale.
Kingambit: 4. Its sucker punch+tera mindgames haven't changed basically at all, really. There's just possibly bigger fish to fry right now, that's all, really. Though regarding the above melmetal comparison, it should be noted that gambit's singificantly more versatile than melm (even without counting tera), while also possessing more traits overall.
Gholdengo: 4. While its debate has been beaten to death at this point, one often overlooked aspect I see nobody mention is the sheer ease it has at single-handedly dismantling stall by itself with tera flying+shadow ball/psyshock/nasty plot/recover+leftovers. The only stall counterplay to this are: tera dark/steel blissey (and/or certain other mons), unaware cm clef, or other random lesser seen dark mons like mandibuzz/umbreon, and...idk, while I'm certainly not a fan of stall myself, I find it strange how nobody mentions the sheer potency/reliability of this set at doing its job, while not sacrificing much of the mon's overall potency on the whole (other than missing make it rain for...various things it'd like the move for).
Other: not much to add, really. Mainly just the fact that banning spikes on the whole would certainly be a pretty drastic measure, should it be unironically considered. As for gliscor vs ghold in terms of priorities, gliscor first, for reasons already stated in my linked post above, and other things that should be obvious by this point in general, really.
And that's all. This time I made sure to look at my own ratings correctly before submitting/forgetting about them entirely. In any case, have a nice rest of your day.
 
Just a couple thoughts:</p><p></p><p>Manaphy: Amazing how a mon can be so ridiculous and underrated/underused at the same time. Literally breaks any slow team. I have trouble deciding which set is better in the context of higher upside and splashability. Tail glow tera (your choice everything works!) 3 attacks absolutely destroys everything slower and can potentially bypass common checks. Item is also free because this mon is not inherently weak to stealth rocks, although heavy duty boots are a generally good choice for every mon that is affected by spikes. Lefties and the now obsolete LO are also nice choices. Only downside is that it will to terastalise to reach its apogee. Take Heart is amazing and provides an option for the second best last mon win condition in the tier. It reminds a bit of peak garganacle only this time it doesnt need tera to function. This manaphy is less splashable than the other though (and less useful defensively than nacl because you really dont want ot switch this thing into hits a lot), but has higher upside against some matchups which it destroys from team preview. That is why I vote 4.

Roaring Moon: A great mon that was underrated even before it got knock off. Of course Knock Off gave it something it lacked before, a powerfull right of the bat spammable stab. Before this outrage was its strongest option and that is well... not good. Other than that RM still does what it did. It 6-0s after its 3 counters are dead. My opinions is that the tera flying acrobatics set is inferior to the a tera blast tera fairy. The popular set is prone to contact countermeasures such as rocky helmet and random static or flame body paras and burns. While it hits a lot harder, I find tera fairy to be obvioysly the better defensive typing choice and it gives RM a lot more room to start a sweep. Its also important that fairy plays better against opposing priority (mainly sucker punch and the now rarer ice shard). The fairy set can also bypass the same checks (such as bulky fighting types) so it isn;t inferior when it comes to breaking power. It loses to amoongus though. I experimented with a bulkier set and a some sets with roost/boots but i came to a conclusion that this beast is a strategic force. Once out there's only one play and thats to tera dd and then click one of TB/Knock Off/EQ. If it comes out before that time then the mu was harsher than it should (probably building problem), or your opponent made better plays tha you. I dont see this under 4 (strong 3 if you are a biased fanboy like me...)

Kingambit: The best tera user in the tier and the absolute best last mon set upper in the gistory of the game. My sweet prince has everything and I LOVE HIM. One does not need to write a tome about this - mons a beast and everyone knows it. As far as strategic tera users go this is the poster boy (followed by RM) and can turn around a match on his own. BUT.. There's another discussion that needs to be made. Kingambit is the best candidate for the tera "problem" debate. Ill start stating that I am a huge pro tera stan. I feel that this Gens mechanic is one of the best ever made, at least so far, and that it gives so much more depth to the game. Besides the 6 mons you see in the preview theres a second deeper layer in every battle and that is the tera option. Every mon can tera without item or movepool restrictions which gives a lot of freedom for active in game choices. In battle adaptability is a thing that we never had before. This adaptability IMO comes in 2 forms. Strategic tera users that 99% of the time you will NEED to use the tera on in order for your offensive plan to come to fruition and tactical tera that gives more defenisive option to patch in game holes (think tera glowking/tusk/lando) , or to press some more advantage for you when you have momentum (think pult or some valiants).A team with kingambit MUST use terra on gambit which takes a lot from said adaptability. Committing your tera in my opinion is a very impactful desicion. And a strategic tera oughts to be powerful as a trade off. Kingambit is the best choice for this because of many reasons. It is powerful, it is bulky, it sets up, has priority, can pressure base form checks with tera AND it can pull its weight defensively dute to its base typing which is pretty good (best splashable gholdengo pult check LETS GO). With all of that said I feel gambit has counters and theres defensive counterplay in the flow of the game. Yes you will be on your toes until it's dead and youll need to make tough decisions but that makes a game well played. Gambit without tera is just a good mon. One last thing. I find the results of the previous suspect test a strong argument against Gambit's ban. It was a community decision to keep this around and it should be respected as long as gambit doesn't become ogrepon tier oppresive. And tbh I dont think much have changed since the last suspect test when it comes to Kingambit. It hasnt become better and it hasb't become worse. Its just one of the best mons in the tier. Stong 3 from me.

ill edit my post later for gholdengo and ogerpon. Thanks for reading me <3
 
:manaphy:: 4 - it's playable but it doesn't have any consistent counters or checks. Stored power can beat unaware mons, you just have to do a ton of damage to make sure it goes down. It won't sweep every game but it'll probably take down a few mons with it.

:roaring moon:: 3 - I mean it's fine but having tera is insane maybe a 4, but I put 3 cuz I'm kinda biased and I like moon a lot. Also, it's walled by dozo (unlike somebody) and will literally shit it's pants if something has a fairy move pre-tera. Can be revenge by strong priority unless it's a bulky jawlock roost set, but that isn't real (at least that's what my therapist tells me).

:gliscor:: 2 - Super annoying but it has counterplay, notably either stab physical ice moves and stab or nonstab special ice moves for the physdef gliscor set that's the most common right now. Also, gliscor is also weak to water, which is pretty common with gren, wake, and manaphy. Waterpon is also water but it needs to set up to more seriously threaten gliscor.

:sneasler:: 2 - Not broken but can sweep if your not prepared. Dire claw is annoying but resttalk dozo walls so balance and stall are harder to beat. However, against HO sneasler will eat your team alive if you give it a turn to set up.

:ogerpon-wellspring: 5 - this thing has a few ways to counter like manaphy, BUT this has amazing dual stabs so dozo has to tera or it will die to a few powerwhips/horn leechs/other grass stab. fast encore also isn't a perfect way to guarantee waterpon doesn't 6-0 cuz it doesn't need to set up to be extremely threatening since the 20% mask boost effectly gives this similar strength to slacking or palafin. Also waterpon has a way to reliably boost it's speed through trailblaze so it can threaten faster mons that want to revenge kill it. waterpon also has horn leech for recovery so it isn't easily revenge by strong priority.

:kingambit: 5 - still surprised this survived the suspect...

:gholdengo: 4 - 90% of the reason why boots spam is a thing and why stall runs boots on most mons not named magic guard clef or gliscor. Really annoying given how corv would probably be at least A tier if it could actually defog, same goes for other defoggers. This isn't as big of a deal for spinners but still the role compression is insane because it's immune to both mortal spin and rapid spin. Only court change, a temporary way to remove hazards and tidy up, which is only available on FURRET AND MAUSHOLD.
 
Enjoyable - 2; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it.
Competitive - 5; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it. Add tier under development.

:Manaphy:, :Roaring Moon:, :Sneasler: - 3, deserve some action, but are not a priority.
:Gliscor: - 2; Let this guy be boring like Landorus-T has been for the last 3 generations, at least for now.
:Gholdengo: >
1697461580477.png
>
1697461551204.png
- 5; The first two centralize and orient the game around in an unhealthy way. Waterpon is very versatile, suffering from 4mss sometimes turns things in your favor, as it makes unpredictable, despite not being able to use items.

Mentions; Booster Energy and HDB or item clause. Please understand what I mean by this. Spam from these items is overwhelming.
I also made another mention that I leave reserved for the survey evaluator.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Enjoyable - 2; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it.
Competitive - 5; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it. Add tier under development.

:Manaphy:, :Roaring Moon:, :Sneasler: - 3, deserve some action, but are not a priority.
:Gliscor: - 2; Let this guy be boring like Landorus-T has been for the last 3 generations, at least for now.
:Gholdengo: > View attachment 562297 > View attachment 562296 - 5; The first two centralize and orient the game around in an unhealthy way. Waterpon is very versatile, suffering from 4mss sometimes turns things in your favor, as it makes unpredictable, despite not being able to use items.

Mentions; Booster Energy and HDB or item clause. Please understand what I mean by this. Spam from these items is overwhelming.
I also made another mention that I leave reserved for the survey evaluator.
Item clause only makes dealing with hazard stacking even worse. Yeah its boring seeing Boots spam all the time, but it’s a necessary evil rn.

As for Booster Energy. Flutter Mane and Bundle were broken with or without Booster. Moon is the only thing that is getting close to straight up broken with Booster but its also Moon. Valiant has been discussed but Valiant itself isn’t really broken rn. People aren’t calling for Moth bans nor any of the other paradoxes.
 

1LDK

Trial by fury
is a Top Team Rater
Enjoyment: 5/10 we have only 2 play styles right now, ogerpon ho and gliscor balance, so uh, I hope you like those

Balance: 6/10 we have only 2 play styles right now, ogerpon ho and gliscor balance, so uh, it's balanced in a spider web, from the Patu Marplesi kind

:Manaphy: 3/5, need people to stop interrupting my sweeps with random trick

:Roaring moon: 1/5 good but not really ban worthy, he likes that half the tier is ogerpon ho

:gliscor: and :ogerpon wellspring: both get 5/5 and both are the 2 best Pokémon in the metagame no question about it, who you hate more its up to you, I already explained my motives, I'm fine with either being suspected first but if I was forced to make a desicion, Ogerpon would be the first in line, I know SCL is tending more towards Gliscor, but to be honest both are pretty terrible so yeah

:Sneasler: 1/5 roll d20 every single time lmao its not that hard (also this just a byproduct of ho)

:kingambit: 1/5 Last time I posted this I didn't get a single haha, which is weird considering everyone in this fucking place hates this mon, idk man, I'm not convinced, and will never me probably

:gholdengo: 5/5 also explained here, but I think you can wait untill DLC 2 so that the "WELL GET MORE DEFOG" copium finally dies, the "ITS NOT GHOLDENGO FAULT WE HAVE 10000000000000000000000 SPIKERS" cope will persist tho

Anything else? No, the council covered everything to be honest

Are you good at the game? My psychiatrist will know about this one
 
Enjoyable - 2; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it.
Competitive - 5; Terastal, and this is not the time to talk about it. Add tier under development.

:Manaphy:, :Roaring Moon:, :Sneasler: - 3, deserve some action, but are not a priority.
:Gliscor: - 2; Let this guy be boring like Landorus-T has been for the last 3 generations, at least for now.
:Gholdengo: > View attachment 562297 > View attachment 562296 - 5; The first two centralize and orient the game around in an unhealthy way. Waterpon is very versatile, suffering from 4mss sometimes turns things in your favor, as it makes unpredictable, despite not being able to use items.

Mentions; Booster Energy and HDB or item clause. Please understand what I mean by this. Spam from these items is overwhelming.
I also made another mention that I leave reserved for the survey evaluator.
If you want item clause just play battle stadium or vgc. Limiting hdb will only make hazard stack much stronger and given how you put ghold as a 5, I don't think that's what you want. Booster doesn't really break anything, the paradox ubers are already broken with or without booster, booster just pushes them over the edge.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Survey -

Meta Enjoyability - 7 (I have fun when I'm on the ladder NGL) (Opinionated)
Meta Competitive - 5 (I think we potentially have 3-4 Pokemon that need to get banned)

:Manaphy: (4) - I think this thing is pretty overwhelming and it the same issue with Ursaluna-Blood Moon but not as bad, you have to prepare for 2 sets on team builder and in conjunction with Sticky Webs / Aurora Veil it kinda makes it tough to beat when it Teras. Take Heart cures your status which I love and think is really needed in this meta but I think currently how it's placed it can be overwhelming and get out of control, for example you can just get a haze mon and you'll probably be straight (Realistically Clodsire works immaculately with Haze + Water Absorb). I'm 50/50 because I think it can be OU (Personally love Manaphy), but I just think at the moment it's pretty unhealthy.

:Roaring Moon: (5) - Yeah in my opinion the most broken mon currently in the meta, there's still a bunch of sets that we haven't even really gotten into yet which I was discussing which could be stuff like Choice Band (Tera Dark) Knock Off (Attack Boosting in Sun), this does insane damage. Similar to Manaphy what puts it over the top is definitely predicting when and if they tera. Speaking about the DD Attack boosting set (usually paired with tera flying) can be a insane breaker, and now when things like Dozo used to be able to switch on it, it gets Knocked Off which allows for progress and here's a calc: Dozo doesn't run Curse + Sleep Talk anymore because of Ogerpon-Wellspring so it's usually Body Press + Water Move.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 160-190 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 91.8% chance to 3HKO - You have almost a guarantee shot to 3HKO aka you beat it when it tries to go for Rest (So tbh if the best physical wall can't do much what are we supposed to do?)

Oh Corviknight? Yeah you're forced to run Iron Defense or you'll eventually lose but you can't even switch in on Roaring Moon sometimes - Oh no one's running Attack Boosting Choice Band Moon in the sun? (Not yet but they will)

252 Atk Choice Band Protosynthesis Tera Dark Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 302-356 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you decide to switch-in and go tera it becomes food, these are some of the unexplored sets that I'm bringing up as I've brought up before with Ursaluna-Blood Moon in my suspect post, I said it has taunt which was underexplored, couple days later it's being used in SCL to beat Blissey...

IMO easiest thing that should get banned. Knock Off put it over the edge, straight up.

I'm not going to break up the other mons because they're in my opinion not a priority over these 2 above.

:Gliscor: (3) - Top 3 mon in the tier, should eventually get suspected but it's not impossible to stop.
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: (3) - Really good mon but has a decent amount of checks / counters, definitely it's problem is 4 move syndrome, it can't have it all. Not having access to Boots is also a big weak point so entry hazard spam is quite easy to wear it down.
:Sneasler: (5) - Yeah, nothing has changed I'm only giving it a 5 because I know it won't have community support at the moment but Dire Claw is literally broken and is essentially the Hail Mary of Pokemon moves, you can be down 6-1 and still win with this move if there's no opposing steel types (Shout out to Dengo). Do I think it should be suspected now? absolutely not but definitely deserves an eventual suspect test after DLC2.
:Kingambit: (3) - Not a priority, still the best mon in the tier, and probably deserves another suspect test.
:Gholdengo: (4) - It is a problem when it comes to why Sticky Webs and Aurora Veil spam is so good, once it goes away I think compared to everything above the metagame competitiveness will probably increase a whole point. That's why you're forced to carry Cinderace for Court Changing at a drop of a hat. Out of all the mons that have been suspected (until Baxicalibur got QB), it has been next in line to be honest.
 
If Sneasler is broken, I feel it isn't tied to Dire Claw. Dire Claw is best used on the Protective Pads set, but that set seems drastically worse post-home to me due to gaining another, extremely splashable check in Gliscor, making the goal of Fishing for poisons & status a bit more of a lost cause, especially given Gholdengo usage is still pretty high. The main set that seems like it would be broken would be the G-Terrain SD Acro set, which is a very powerful win-con that can easily find a setup turn and is difficult to revenge kill, esp w/ Tera Flying on deck. I feel on this set, you would much rather other coverage moves to deal with the limited counterplay more reliably, like Gunk Shot to not get paralyzed by Zapdos / Burned by Moltres or Night Slash / Tera Blast Ground to blast past Gholdengo and Slowking-G with a bit of chip. Zapdos and Moltres did take a hit with the DLC, but I feel like they are beginning to see more usage again & alongside the Gliscor / Gholdengo that are on most teams (which are often run together) I feel there are less situations where clicking Dire Claw over other options is the play. That being said, I've do understand the frustration, as I've been in the nightmare scenarios whether my Dragonite randomly gets put to Sleep in the past, but these situations feel few and far between and more often, its the other traits like the doubled speed, potential Tera, and strong coverage between Acrobatics / CC that gives me trouble.
THANK YOU, someone else who sees that Dire Claw is noob bait on Sneasler.

I'm all for entertaining the argument of its Unburden + SD sets being unusually potent, maybe a bit less so with Gliscor running the game and some other things like bulky Pivot Alomomola (which late-game can either Faint or Flip Turn to give its wish to revitalize a Sneasler response), as a Mon that can get the equivalent of 2 DD boosts with only somewhat-specific Team Support and achieving fairly strong 3 move coverage (STABs + Tera Blast/Lash Out creates a narrow enough list of things to have removed/weakened by the team) sounds like a very potent consideration, and Sneasler's defensive typing makes it less frail than it looks like (STAB Fighting without a Fairy Weakness, and resistances to Dark, Fighting, Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock) as far as buying it that one turn or avoiding an out-of-the-box Priority Revenge Kill (Kingambit does 76% max with 5 Fainted Allies and Tera Dark while being KO'd 7/8 of the time by Unboosted Jolly CC). Heck, the Acrobatics set can 2HKO Gliscor with +2 Tera Flying Acrobatics after Poison Heal, so with 1 SD it doesn't have to even play with Protect Mind-Games to potentially beat Gliscor (and the GT Seed set can take 2 EQs without Tera to Boost up if needed)

I've made very clear in the past that Dire Claw is not a competitive move, but it's also not WORTH using on Sneasler by nature, as it's not a mon that has the bulk or QUITE the overwhelming threat level to outright fish for Status hits. This would maybe be a concern if Gunk Shot wasn't just better for the mon in every significant way (Higher Power and non-Contact to avoid Rocky Helmet/Flame Body/Static punishment, ESPECIALLY since Poison STAB is the one for the Birds as is) on a set not running Protective Pads. I don't know if Sneasler is or ever was oppressive, but if it was it was NOT for its Signature Move.

This is the kind of move that's busted on a somewhat-Bulky Poison like Nidoqueen or Drapion (or Okidogi, the Bulky Sneas) who can last long enough to throw a few of them even against their checks; with Sneasler I don't even feel like the risk-reward would be worth it. If you Dire Claw the switch-in and get a crippling Status Effect, now what do you do? Set up the SD you probably could have used on the turn that mon was coming in anyway, or try to double switch on THAT check now probably leaving the field? It doesn't really cripple the opposition hard so much as create a new opening Sneasler still has to predict around to not blow up.
 
Meta Enjoyability - 4 (too much cheese to many frustrating interactions too much rock paper scissors between broken mons that check each other)
Meta Competitive - 3 (see above)

:Manaphy: (3) - I believe Tail Glow 3 attacks set are a non issue due to lack of ability to increase speed or heal. I've yet to run into the Tera Poison Take Heart set but I'm more willing to believe this is an issue. Can't imagine much can be done once the Tera + appropriate boost turn has lapsed. Ease of revenging with Booster Mons and Kingambit helps but in general the metagame needs less cheese right now

:Roaring Moon: (4) - Tera tends to be very predictable but that doesn't quite balance this Mon. Booster Attack is pretty terrifying whenever it comes out and very little can be done once it has one DD up, ludicrously powerful even without the speed boost and knock off removing items being super strong and being dark type, a type with basically no switch ins, is a little much

:Gliscor: (5) - This thing is so stupid. I and many others have spoke extensively in this thread about how I can count the Pokémon that can break down Gliscor without trading for a Toxic or burning Tera on one hand, how protect + poison heal makes any of its checks extremely shaky, and the disastrous effect it has on the hazard metagame. How can anyone tell me Gliscor isn't ridiculously overcentralizing when Poison is becoming a popular Tera type to block toxic, the (now second) best utility Pokémon in the tier is now forced to run ice spinner to have a chance against Gliscor, (and Gliscor responds to this 4x weakness with protect, toxic, protect, switch, and it's like the ice spinner never happened,) and teams are now mostly non-grounded or boots users to avoid the spikes? We're playing Gliscor spikes simulator, not OU. Fix it

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: (2) - Might deserve a higher rating later when all the real dumb stuff is gone. Relatively good matchup into Gliscor (but still extremely shaky which is a testament more to Gliscor) which is nice. Good wall breaker with a good type but big 4mss problem and has appropriate and reasonable checks and counters

:Sneasler: (3) - Not a major issue compared to the demon scorpion (or while it exists) or any of the really strong breakers present right now but still one of the cheapest mons in the metagame. Dire Claw is a mid move Sneasler rarely gets to click and even more rarely leads to cheesing past its check. No, the real issue with sneasler is the SD/Unburden/Air Balloon set, this is a very cheap set because if you attack it without ohkoing it gets a crazy speed boost, and if you switch into something else, it gets a swords dance. Sneasler very quickly encourages dynamics where you're afraid to attack while it's alive and the game often ends by attacking at the wrong time and that's just not ok imo. Not super common right now or the top of the list so it only gets a 3 but overall sneasler is miserable to play against

:Kingambit: (4) - one thing i Will say in Kingambit's favor right now is it's kind of nice glue. Being able to reliably revenge kill vs all the stupid things listed above is very valuable. It also has a harder time doing its thing in the age of Gliscor. However this does not trump the fact that it can and does completely invalidate the entirety of what happened in a game before it was sent out, and completely reverse conclusions of games very easily, and makes it simply uncompetitive

:Gholdengo: (2) - Let's deal with the scorpion in the room, then maybe if we need to, the moose and otter that will likely re-enter the room afterwards, then see if spike stacking is nearly as easy as it is now. Really can't switch into tusk on a dime like others say it can, removing it only makes a big difference for Corv. Perhaps worth looking into later, especially if sticky web remains common
 
I can’t remember my answers so I’m doing this from memory.

First- Fuck Tera.

Enjoyable/ Balanced 2 or 3 for each. This metagame is centralized around a few broken mons and strategies, and how to best use the Tera cheat button to fuck your opponent.

Manaphy - 3
This mon is bannable because of the cheesy stored power BS. But it’s not really broken otherwise. It’s the fact that you can do dumb things like Tera Grass or Tera Dragon on shit like Rillaboom and Meowscarada to completely laugh at them which you shouldn’t be able to do. Split on on this, so it gets a 3. In the tiers current state this is broken and needs a ban.

Roaring Moon - 3
Idk this mon is stupid and kind of broken and I’ve used it and fought against it. Fat dudes like thicc daddy Zapdos and thic daddy Corviknight seem to do ok vs it. I can see this being banned but I don’t find it super overwhelming yet.

Gliscor - 3
I find this mon more annoying than broken. I use weather so I recognize my perspective is biased so normally Gliscor dies without much trouble. I think the protect stalling sets are whack as fuck and big waste of your opponents time. I can see why people consider this broken because it just lays spikes on everything and just makes battles even more miserable than they already are.

Ogerpon-Wellspring - 4 or 5
This girl is broken. Too fast, powerful and brainless. Without using a defensive Tera I don’t know how you stop this thing. Doesn’t help that one of her best checks (Roaring Moon) is also on this list. Broken checking broken.

Sneasler - 1
This mon sucks.

Kingambit - FIVE
Get this broken piece of shit out of OU.

Gholdengo - 3
I don’t think Dhengo the mon is broken but the presence is for sure unhealthy. I find it really stressful on the builder to have to fit Tusk, Treads, or Cinderace as non-negotiables. I’ve made 6 boots teams but they just aren’t as good overall

Nothing else I find problematic since we can’t talk about Tera.
 
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