Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I mean a lot of these mons don't even run offensive investment at all on their defog sets. They put on a tiny amount of pressure from their base offenses just by being legends, but its not like they are that much better themselves. There really isnt anything that wrong with just passive defogging and getting out. Undoing 3 turns of spike stack in one move is enough. Meanwhile Ghold still is quite problematic even with all of these threats having access to defog again. Just look at NatDex they had to ban Gholdengo over there too and they have many more defog options than us.
1. Natdex isn't a good comparison tho. I remember Wake and Ursaluna OG were banned there, but they are perfectly fine in OU.
2. I don't say Ghold shouldn't be banned. I just find ridiculous that banning Ghold is like a "press this button to solve OU" button. It's getting ridiculous how whenever there is a ban, people would begin to complain about "why not Ghold ban", while all of the bans have been justifiable.
 
galarian weezing will drop without hazard stack, its main niche is “defog without gholdengo switching in to block”
i dunno, i think it might actually be a better defogger with ghold gone because then it's free to run levitate instead of neutralizing gas. that gives it an immunity to most hazards without a rocks weakness or a need for boots, so it can come in repeatedly on hazard stack. levitate also gives it a fantastic matchup against ting-lu to pair with its already-good matchups against hamurott and ribombee, so it's a defogger that's also good against the best hazard setters in the tier. lastly, it also has a solid matchup spread against some other prominent mons—namely, levitate makes it a solid and consistent tusk and rillaboom switch-in, it can serve as an emergency check to some valiant sets, and it's bulky enough to live a +2 waterpon ivy cudgel and wisp back. it needs wish support but it's definitely a good sleeper pick even in a gholdless meta
 
1. Natdex isn't a good comparison tho. I remember Wake and Ursaluna OG were banned there, but they are perfectly fine in OU.
2. I don't say Ghold shouldn't be banned. I just find ridiculous that banning Ghold is like a "press this button to solve OU" button. It's getting ridiculous how whenever there is a ban, people would begin to complain about "why not Ghold ban", while all of the bans have been justifiable.
Just because banning Gholdengo won’t completely fix OU, it will solve the major problem of hazards being so hard to remove because of its mere presence in the meta. For Gholdengo’s specific case, using NatDex as a comparison is fine as it demonstrates that even with all of the hazard removal options that have ever existed, including Moltres and other things that threaten Gholdengo, Gholdengo still ended up being a major problem for the tier. The tier even has full Pursuit and Knock Off distribution, and still. That’s how bad of a problem Good As Gold is. If Good As Gold didn’t block Defog, Gholdengo would be an outright healthy presence in OU. But because Good As Gold can just casually block out Defog and Gholdengo has the typing to block out Rapid Spin, it ends up completely nullifying hazard removal and normalizing using Rapid Spin and Defog less, making hazards and screens even more overwhelming than they already are. Yeah, Defog’s distribution being axed really hurts, but the problem would definitely be less significant if the things that do get Defog can just, you know, click the damn move.
 
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658Greninja

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So if you switch into Mandibuzz in the middle of a bunch of Hazard and I cannot threaten Mandibuzz, do you expect me to stay or what?
Also if I switch a Valiant into your Mandi defog, I may as well fucking click Calm Mind or Sword Dance in the next turn.
Ok, so now your hazards are gone and your Valiant comes in. Cool, don’t give a shit. I have an Amoonguss/Clef/Skele/Pex in the back to keep you from making any progress. Basic teambuilding.
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
Valiant is just one example. There is also Rockpon/Waterpon too. The former is likely to rise if Ghold is axed.
ogerpon-W loses to physically defensive mandibuzz since it cant deal enough damage w/ unboosted ivy cudgel but setting up an SD gets you killed by foul play. ogerpon-C is arguably even more troublesome for the bulkier teams mandibuzz sees play on (especially with no gholdengo) but it is far from uncounterable, pokemon also seen on fat such as amoonguss and corviknight can handle it quite nicely. mandibuzz itself can even emergency check ogerpon-C with the appropriate defensive tera. fat certainly has trouble with ogerpon and its forms but none of them are uncounterable, mandibuzz even matches up well into two of its forms

also i recommend replying to posts in one message instead of making several replies as seperate posts because thats just spamming
 

viivian

flying through space
is a Tiering Contributor
now thats just blatantly wrong. clefable and skeledirge are some of the most important defensive presences in the tier right now so not sure why youre dismissing them as bad. toxapex only sees play on stall and fat teams but it isnt bad by any means either. to dismiss all three of these pokemon as unviable is just incorrect
 
i dunno, i think it might actually be a better defogger with ghold gone because then it's free to run levitate instead of neutralizing gas. that gives it an immunity to most hazards without a rocks weakness or a need for boots, so it can come in repeatedly on hazard stack. levitate also gives it a fantastic matchup against ting-lu to pair with its already-good matchups against hamurott and ribombee, so it's a defogger that's also good against the best hazard setters in the tier. lastly, it also has a solid matchup spread against some other prominent mons—namely, levitate makes it a solid and consistent tusk and rillaboom switch-in, it can serve as an emergency check to some valiant sets, and it's bulky enough to live a +2 waterpon ivy cudgel and wisp back. it needs wish support but it's definitely a good sleeper pick even in a gholdless meta
I think gweezing is just gonna be a better mon overall - you mentionned ting lu, which is currently made worse by ghold's presence imo, funnily enough.

With levitate it bullies p much every physical attacker except cinderace (immune to burn and pyro ball does about 40), zamazenta (heavy slam, is weak to strange steam though), and the ogerpon forms (+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 314-370 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO).

Banning gholdengo would also free up its team to use another defogger, which frees up that moveslot for something else like flamethrower/strange steam depending on which one you personally drop for defog, or toxic spikes a la gen 6 cofagrigus.

Also I don't know where else to put this but it can check every single non-specs ival set, taking at worst 82% from a special set (max roll for 2 unboosted tbolts + lefties) and do minimum 88% back, with a 1/4 chance of killing outright if the val isn't chipped at all.
 
In some fairness I can see it as more of a "this makes sense on paper and flounders in practice" than a bad idea at base. Conk's Fighting STAB and high Physical bulk means in theory it threatens the Dark-Type Spikers like Ting-Lu and Hamurott, as some miscellaneous stuff like Kingambit that likes to pair with it, with threatening the Hazard setters being a major benefit to a theoretical remover to prevent them going back up.

It just flounders in practice because Conk is so slow as to cut into its bulk alongside its Guts power like Ursaluna, and has much bigger 4MSS for coverage without trying to fit a niche utility move into its kit. I see where they're going with it even if it's not going very far
as a Conkeldurr Enjoyurr™, Conk isn't forced into running an all-out attacker guts set. Lest you forget, it has both Iron Fist and Sheer Force that can boost its power enough to let it invest in some bulk, and it has STAB Drain Punch (boosted by iron fist but un/fortunately unboosted by sheer force) to keep itself healthy. In addition, it has nice priority in Mach Punch, Knock for hitting Ghosts and general utility, and a surprisingly robust coverage movepool, featuring the elemental punches, rock coverage, Poison Jab, and High Horsepower. I don't think it has problems with 4MSS, more that it has options to hit specific things with all its coverage, as it only really NEEDS fighting STAB/Knoff and in this case Defog to be effective. The issue is that fighting really isn't a good defensive typing, and since most of its bulk is made of its HP, it gains less from Drain Punch so it's not as self-sustaining as it should be on paper.
 
Maybe like Amoongus. The rest aren't really viable in this format.
Clef not being viable in this format is quite the take! Skeledirge also has only gotten better and better since the DLC drop. Pex is fringe but still extremely good on stall and tbh hasn't been tinkered with on BO or balance since prehome but still forms the same great core with Garganacl
I mean, maybe because of a certain shit eating grin cheese stick
This is a great example of people using Ghold as a scapegoat for every little thing about thé metagame
 

Kenpwnchi

formerly Pwndkthnx
Ight. So, I don't think I've spoken on Gholdengo yet, but after play several games of testing, I've formed an analysis that I would like to share. First, let's talk about the typing: Steel/Ghost. Together, as Steel/Ghost, Gholdengo already has, what I would consider, nigh defensive capabilities. I'm sure you all are aware that Steel happens to be one of the best defensive typings, and Ghost is, for the most part, neutral to everything. Thus, the overlapping between both types isn't really a hindrance at all.

Knowing this, let's look at individual typing. If you decide to Tera Type and get the ×2.0 STAB for either Steel or Ghost, your opponent is either faced with a problematic and overwhelming base stat Make It Rain or the already useful Shadow Ball that can score you easy SpD drops for a clean OHKO next attack. Gholdengo, also having impressive EVs, can take full advantage of a mechanic like Tera Type.

For Tera Type Gholdengo, I always think about the presence of Flutter Mane, and that prompts me to go for Fairy. Best part about going Fairy is that you can take full advantage of the generic ×1.5 STAB of Dazzling Gleam. Now, all of your, supposed, Dark and Ghost checks no longer exist, and you're neutral to your other weaknesses. This is just one of many Tera Types that Gholdengo can take complete use of.

Good as Gold is, quite literally, the icing on the cake. As many have mentioned before, Gholdengo is, "officially", our first anti-status mon. Taunt, Encore, and so on, so forth, are utterly useless when Gholdengo hits the field. Gholdengo can be used to dodge statuses the entire match, damn near invalidating their purpose at all unless you can position yourself right to take out Gholdengo. This isn't taking into consideration that the same said Gholdengo can Tera Type, and remove whatever you have from the field.

Did I mention that Gholdengo has recovery? That's right! The OG Recovery, too. Despite whatever PP Recovery has lost, 16 PP, if I'm not mistaken, is more than enough to keep Gholdengo around as a problem. You slap LO on Gholdengo, with a little bulk, and, now, you just win the Gholdengo mirrors. Anything else is getting brought into OHKO range (at the minimum). If y'all don't see that as problematic, I don't know what to tell you. Although, I know many of you would opt to use the suboptimal Air Balloon set.

Overall, using Gholdengo makes me feel like I will confidently win, most of the time, because I know I have two already great STAB moves, can take advantage of Tera Typing, can abuse certain items, unaffected by statuses, decent bulk, and efficient recovery. Yeah, can we PLEASE ban this thing for the sake of the SV OU community?

Edit: Inb4 you realize Gholdengo IS Flutter Mane 2.0.
 

658Greninja

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
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Maybe like Amoongus. The rest aren't really viable in this format.
Skeledirge is a strong defensive mon on bulkier builds Mandi fits on. Checking Zama, Moth, Valiant, etc due to its typing and Unaware. Clef being dismissed as “not really viable” is just plain wrong. It is an excellent utility pick and saw top 5 usage at SCL a few weeks ago. It would no doubt be even better in a theoretical Gholdless meta.
 

Kenpwnchi

formerly Pwndkthnx
Skeledirge is a strong defensive mon on bulkier builds Mandi fits on. Checking Zama, Moth, Valiant, etc due to its typing and Unaware. Clef being dismissed as “not really viable” is just plain wrong. It is an excellent utility pick and saw top 5 usage at SCL a few weeks ago. It would no doubt be even better in a theoretical Gholdless meta.
Gholdless Meta: A Post-Gholdengo Meta. It's gonna be iconic. I can see it now. The first day will be chaos. I predict status usage increase OFF BAIL. Hazards, being, primarily, status based will mean the return of the Hazards Meta to full effect. Personally, I can't see my baby Great Tusk holding things down by itself for too long. Not having a, general, mon to just scare stuff away is pivotal. Once people start loading their Great Tusk counters up, it's hazard central we go. And, as an advent user of Thunder Wave, I will be paralyzing everything in sight.
 
Just because banning Gholdengo won’t completely fix OU, it will solve the major problem of hazards being so hard to remove because of its mere presence in the meta. For Gholdengo’s specific case, using NatDex as a comparison is fine as it demonstrates that even with all of the hazard removal options that have ever existed, including Moltres and other things that threaten Gholdengo, Gholdengo still ended up being a major problem for the tier.
Hi. Nat Dex player who voted to ban Gholdengo here. Removing it improved the tier because it opened up our options from just the 2-3 consistent removers (Lando, Tusk, Moltres) to a significantly wider list of viable removers (we got like 5+ more viable defoggers on top of those three). Beyond it also was extremely potent vs bulky structures who struggled to damage it and punish its set up as a result of common anti set up tactics being blocked by it. These forces together made it a controversial pokemon. It was a problem for its potency vs these teams and the slashing of a significant number of otherwise viable defoggers.

Yeah, Defog’s distribution being axed really hurts, but the problem would definitely be less significant if the things that do get Defog can just, you know, click the damn move.
Regular OU has one viable defogger, so removing Gholdengo would not significantly improve that issue as much as people like to believe. If you want to ban Gholdengo, ban it for its overbearing pressure on bulkier teams (while still not being useless vs offense, though obviously very tolerable there).
I think gweezing is just gonna be a better mon overall - you mentionned ting lu, which is currently made worse by ghold's presence imo, funnily enough.
Ting Lu... Isn't made worse by Ghold's presence. It's literally a check to it. What?
 
To change the topic a little bit, what are your opinions on Weather teams right now? Ogerpon-W is giving them a really hard time, not only for Rain teams but for Sun as well, considering that the latter really likes running Specs Walking Wake, and when you pair Waterpon with Flash Fire Heatran (which has been getting very popular lately) you pretty much wall their entire team. Rain, on the other hand, struggles not only because of Water Absorb, but because Rain boosted Tera Water Ivy Cudgel OHKOs the likes of Barraskewda, Greninja, Zapdos, Crawdaunt and 2HKOs Manaphy and Azumarill, while also easily 3HKOing Pelipper itself. Now that I read my own post the real question might as well be what do you think of Waterpon.
I haven’t been super active the past couple months so you can take this with a grain of salt as it was a different meta game back then, but my solution as a rain player to the ogerpon-w problem when it was first released was to use defensive toxicroak. It hardwalls most waterpon sets and matches up well with Rilla, Dozo, and Pex, who also give rain issues. The main issue is it can be a bit passive at times, but in certain matchups it really puts in work. I’m just gonna quote myself here since I already talked about it in the past:

I got this toxicroak rain team to the top 50 a few weeks ago and don't have the time/energy to make an RMT, but thought I'd share the set here.

View attachment 563660
Toxicroak @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Gunk Shot / Bulk Up / Encore / Toxic
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Taunt

After DLC was released, Ogerpon-W was a massive pain for rain teams so I wanted something that could reliably switch into it. I knew toxicroak got knock off back from DLC, and I successfully used a similar defensive toxicroak set on a gen 8 rain team so I decided to try it out. The main reason I added croak was for ogerpon-w, but it also has good matchups against the other two ogerpons, rillaboom, dondozo, and pex, which are all generally nuisances for rain teams. Additionally, it is a decent gambit check, and all teams need multiple of those nowadays anyway.

I started with rocky helmet and bulk up in case you're wondering why those are in some of the replays. I later switched from helmet to black sludge to give croak more longevity to continue switching in to the ogerpons/rilla throughout the match. Additionally, I also switched from bulk up to gunk shot to better 1v1 any ogerpons/rillas that try and setup when croak isn't at full health. Speed is for jolly gambit, rest is to maximize bulk, and gunk shot is also a nice touch for tera fairy gambit and any valiant brave enough to switch in. Knock off allows croak to make progress and punish the common gholdengo switch in, and taunt (with knock off) allows croak to keep switching in on any pex and dozo that annoy my barraskewda and ogerpon-w.

Also, gliscor will try to switch in on you a lot and if it's too late to knock off the toxic orb just taunt it to give yourself a free switch to anything that wants to take an earthquake (pelipper, thundy t, maybe ogerpon-w).

I peaked #36 at 1913, and again #39 1926, but misplaced the screenshots so this will have to do.

View attachment 563662

 
Roaring moon: can force progress regardless of what you did, constant high pressure. Easy to find ways to setup.

sneasler: easy setup, can take out just about anything at +2. When using Rillaboom was no longer dead weight, it really blew up.

gliscor: not enough ways to pressure it, so it could spam hazards throughout the game, or otherwise be a useful pivot, potentially the best pivot OU has had all gen.

Gholdengo: use a Pokémon slot to add 1-3 potential turns of spin/defog blocking, useful for HO. Also has a strong nasty plot set and the scarf set has utility , convenient ability vs stall.

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I think gholdengo is different to the rest, if hazards are such a massive problem for your teams why aren’t more HDB/Cinderace/tidy up being considered.

This kinda feels like Garganacl frustration again. Gholdengo is good but isn’t winning games on its own, you have all sorts of “neutral” things that can get through it like 0 SpA HDB Zapdos with heatwave.
 
funny gliscor being banned when it's easy countered by any water/ice type
instead of sending it to ubers they should make some stuff like Mamoswine and Rotom-W back to OU
I'm not... I mean... But the suspect and... God knows how many pages of discussion... How did we miss that Gliscor gets killed by an Ice type move... Gotta call up Finch maaaan he's gonna be so pissed... Went over this so many times but...
 
Roaring moon: can force progress regardless of what you did, constant high pressure. Easy to find ways to setup.

sneasler: easy setup, can take out just about anything at +2. When using Rillaboom was no longer dead weight, it really blew up.

gliscor: not enough ways to pressure it, so it could spam hazards throughout the game, or otherwise be a useful pivot, potentially the best pivot OU has had all gen.

Gholdengo: use a Pokémon slot to add 1-3 potential turns of spin/defog blocking, useful for HO. Also has a strong nasty plot set and the scarf set has utility , convenient ability vs stall.

-

I think gholdengo is different to the rest, if hazards are such a massive problem for your teams why aren’t more HDB/Cinderace/tidy up being considered.

This kinda feels like Garganacl frustration again. Gholdengo is good but isn’t winning games on its own, you have all sorts of “neutral” things that can get through it like 0 SpA HDB Zapdos with heatwave.
I mean, Garganacl frustration was pretty valid. I think it still is/will be in coming months. Maybe not banworthy, but definitely unfun to play against, since Garganacl can easily crush an entire team, or at least 2-4 mons before dying, if you don't have answers to it AND its Tera (e.g., you need Rillaboom AND Slowking-Galar in case of Tera Fairy, or a hard counter like Encore Magic Guard Clefable, etc.)

However, adding an Encore Clefable or really good all around combos such as Rilla + Slowking-G to cover Garganacl aren't overly constricting in teambuilding since these are good all-purpose mons that cover a multitude of things in the meta. These are just things that I, a balance player, can think of off the top of my head, but I know that each playstyle has its own ways to overwhelm and break through Garganacl.

In contrast, forcing yourself to always run HDB spam / Cinderace / random tech Heat Wave on things like Zapdos (when you'd rather have something more consistent like TWave) / Maushold (who is still susceptible to webs and thus being unable to do its job) is much more restricting in teambuilding, as you are only truly running these things for one mon, Gholdengo (particularly HDB spam). I think Cinderace has a little bit more justification as it is still a nice bulky offensive pivot, but at the end of the day Cinderace would not be top 10 in OU for the past two months if it were not for Gholdengo. If/when Gholdengo is banned, I think Cinderace will drop significantly in usage.

So Gholdengo is not winning on its own in the battle. In fact, it often only exists to get its balloon popped and get one kill, or die on a switch-in. But if that's all the hazard stack team needs to stop Great Tusk from spinning, then that is all it needs to do, because it has already won on its own in your teambuilder.

Remember Sneasler? We saw techs like random Tera Ghosts (I ran this on Heatran) or Tera Poisons (I ran this on Great Tusk) BECAUSE of one mon, Sneasler. Now that that mon is gone, I can safely run standard Tera Grass/Bug Heatran and Tera Steel/Fire/Electric Great Tusk for better all-around matchups.

Gholdengo does the same thing to your teambuilder-- forces you to run things that are very overcentralized towards it and tend to cripple you in many other matchups in which you'd rather have another item/mon. That is why it goes a bit beyond Garganacl frustration, at least in my eyes/understanding.
 
Ting Lu... Isn't made worse by Ghold's presence. It's literally a check to it. What?
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 249-294 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If ghold catches it resting or if it decides to check anything else ghold comes out on top, it's a check to ghold - but is kinda shaky as far as those go, especially in terms of fatter teams that need to check it over the course of a game.
 
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