Obviously snow has been the topic of conversation thus far so I thought I might ask. How will A-Sandslash fare with the snow changes? It already had some pretty decent defense and probably could be one of the better Slush Rush Pokemon. Obviously nowhere near an OU caliber mon but just thought it would warrant investigation given that stuff like Frosmoth has been seeing success in the winter wonderland.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Been playing a TON since the DLC dropped, and this shit is NUTS. Definitely some problems to be addressed but for the most part it's been really fun. Gonna just ramble about stuff I've played with/against thus far that has stuck out (for better or worse). Here goes:
Obviously he's insane. Was borderline unacceptable pre-DLC and with the addition of Scale Shot and Veil support, this thing is a genuine demon. Just snowballs out of control so fast and has legitimately stupid bulk behind veil/in snow (Zama CC doesnt even 2HKO, its ridiculous). And even non-Scale Shot sets get better as a result, just adds another layer of unpredictability into playing against this asshole. Outside of Veil this guy still fucks, definitely not reliant on it but is also by far the biggest abuser. Easily the biggest threat in the tier, and even if veil/light clay goes I don't see that changing at all. Dont need to say more, batshit insane mon.
The other talk of the town, just the best enabler in the tier by far. Veil breaks the tier and sometimes feels actually helpless to play against. I already wasn't a fan of the screens teams that infected the ladder when HOME dropped, but those were nothing compared to current veil imo. Makes shit like Bax, Manaphy, Dnite, or basically anything that can boost unholy. It's speed, bulk (physical and special, snow makes this thing a tank), and great secondary fairy typing make it so much better than the average gimmick playstyle enabler. Veil is OU rn.
Actually love the buffs the fish got. Flip Turn is SUCH a big deal, as it pairs perfectly with its massive bulk and regenerator. It allows Alo to pass CHUNKY ass wishes much easier than it ever could before. Still pretty passive but it definitely finds a home on more than just stall now. Also due to Knock Off distribution going up having a mon to sponge Knock Off like Alo is HUGE. It gaining Scald back is also massive as almost nothing is a free switch in anymore with that burn chance (Exchange Bax literally sets up to +7 million tho so definitely handicapped by that being legal rn). Definitely a fan of the fish now though.
Staying on the theme of Flip Turn, legit feel like this guy got even better. H-Samu is a mon that naturally forces a lot of switches, so Flip Turn is a dream come true. Hazard removal didn't really get any better post-DLC1 so spikes feel as prevalent as ever. Been loving Boots 3 Atk + Taunt/Encore, such a reliable setter that can foil tons of bulky shit and pivot around to keep/gain momentum. Love H-Samu rn.
My goat. This guy also gained Flip Turn which makes specs sets even harder to deal with now that it can just pivot around its (already limited) unfavorable matchups. I'm not sure if it's the biggest issue in the tier right now, but definitely a meta-defining threat that got better post-DLC1. Oh it also got Knock Off for some reason, why not.
Haven't used him much yet, but he's def solid. Losing Roost stinks for sure but protect still gives valuable passive recovery via Poison Heal. As mentioned before with Alo, Knock Off absorbers are needed right now and he's one of the best. Having options as a hazard setter (rocks AND spikes!), utility poison spreader, or an SD set up guy gives him hella versatility. Veil/snow being as popular and centralizing as it is hurts Gliscor a lot but once the meta settles and relaxes a bit, I could see him having a very solid place. Would love to see how it goes for Gliscor going forward.
Absolutely demonic under veil. Gets to +3 for free on most of the meta once it's up and just mashes anything in front of it. It still definitely is incredible under rain as well (as its always been), but still feels at its best in the veil. Tera Electric has been by far my favorite on veil teams to troll Zapdos, but I did also like tera water to push this thing to unwallable levels under rain. I don't think it'll be too unmanageable without veil, but while veil is here at its peak, so too is Manaphy.
Did not have high hopes for this due to crazy opportunity cost to use effectively (no item flexibility and mandatory tera to get max value from), but I've been pleasantly surprised. I've only used the fire mask one but man it's cool. It's STAB coverage is so nice, and Ivy Cudgel is a nuclear button once tera'd. Mold Breaker is a neat ability, as you blow through every Unaware mon once tera'd or with an SD, and you can even Taunt stuff like Tera Garg or Ghold. Definitely best under Sun or Veil, as she slots into those archetypes very easily, but definitely can operate on her own too. Just gotta keep the hazards off so it's a bit restricting, but definitely a major threat when supported right.
Maybe not the best option, but damn fun and pretty underrated imo. It's Frankenstein ass 3 in 1 ability is so nice, so it can spam it's Normal STAB relatively stress free. Blood Moon (the move) hits like a damn meteor, and it has solid coverage via its other STAB and non-STAB options. Access to reliable recovery in Moonlight helps SO MUCH due to its lack of speed, and allows it to have multiple chances at doing its thing. Calm Mind feels good too, as its massive HP pool means its can easily get going (especially with the right tera). Vacuum Wave priority with basically scrappy means it can sneak a kill or two in as well on something weakened trying to revenge it. So far I've enjoyed Boots 3 Atk + Moonlight and CM Moonlight 2 Atks. Again, by no means meta defining, but a solid mon in the right conditions.
Real quick rapid fire on some other stuff since this post is getting long:
Chomp is great! Scale Shot is such a breath of fresh airbfor this guy. Bax obviously steals the spotlight but ol' Chomper still can run shit with SD + Scale Shot.
Got Knock Off back so it's back to its old pivoting ways. Maybe not as good as before, but Regen+Knock+U-Turn with that speed will never be bad.
Him and his rain fiends got some neat buffs (Peli got Knock back, Basc got Flip Turn, Thund-T and Zap got weather ball, etc.), and with weather wars being more important than ever (this gen), rains viability going up is huge.
Bro is still Clef. Good mon for sure still even with power creep reaching new heights, Clef stands the test of time.
Veils strongest hater. Court Change feels like a giant middle finger to Veil teams just trying to roll you over (if you can get the change off). Absolutely just as good as it was if not better, fast Taunt/Wisp/Pivot will be good forever.
Low key he's gonna be fire. Poison/Fairy is a bonkers typing and he provides so much utility through status spreading, haze, taunt, etc. And with two great abilities in Levitate and Neutralizing Gas (can defog on ghold I think), I like the look of G-Weezing.
Still wanna try out all the other new stuff and buffed old faces, but for now that's all I've seen/used. TLDR Bax and Veil are heinous (Bax moreso) and but there's some REALLY neat stuff out there. Happy testing and playing all!
Obviously he's insane. Was borderline unacceptable pre-DLC and with the addition of Scale Shot and Veil support, this thing is a genuine demon. Just snowballs out of control so fast and has legitimately stupid bulk behind veil/in snow (Zama CC doesnt even 2HKO, its ridiculous). And even non-Scale Shot sets get better as a result, just adds another layer of unpredictability into playing against this asshole. Outside of Veil this guy still fucks, definitely not reliant on it but is also by far the biggest abuser. Easily the biggest threat in the tier, and even if veil/light clay goes I don't see that changing at all. Dont need to say more, batshit insane mon.
The other talk of the town, just the best enabler in the tier by far. Veil breaks the tier and sometimes feels actually helpless to play against. I already wasn't a fan of the screens teams that infected the ladder when HOME dropped, but those were nothing compared to current veil imo. Makes shit like Bax, Manaphy, Dnite, or basically anything that can boost unholy. It's speed, bulk (physical and special, snow makes this thing a tank), and great secondary fairy typing make it so much better than the average gimmick playstyle enabler. Veil is OU rn.
Actually love the buffs the fish got. Flip Turn is SUCH a big deal, as it pairs perfectly with its massive bulk and regenerator. It allows Alo to pass CHUNKY ass wishes much easier than it ever could before. Still pretty passive but it definitely finds a home on more than just stall now. Also due to Knock Off distribution going up having a mon to sponge Knock Off like Alo is HUGE. It gaining Scald back is also massive as almost nothing is a free switch in anymore with that burn chance (Exchange Bax literally sets up to +7 million tho so definitely handicapped by that being legal rn). Definitely a fan of the fish now though.
Staying on the theme of Flip Turn, legit feel like this guy got even better. H-Samu is a mon that naturally forces a lot of switches, so Flip Turn is a dream come true. Hazard removal didn't really get any better post-DLC1 so spikes feel as prevalent as ever. Been loving Boots 3 Atk + Taunt/Encore, such a reliable setter that can foil tons of bulky shit and pivot around to keep/gain momentum. Love H-Samu rn.
My goat. This guy also gained Flip Turn which makes specs sets even harder to deal with now that it can just pivot around its (already limited) unfavorable matchups. I'm not sure if it's the biggest issue in the tier right now, but definitely a meta-defining threat that got better post-DLC1. Oh it also got Knock Off for some reason, why not.
Haven't used him much yet, but he's def solid. Losing Roost stinks for sure but protect still gives valuable passive recovery via Poison Heal. As mentioned before with Alo, Knock Off absorbers are needed right now and he's one of the best. Having options as a hazard setter (rocks AND spikes!), utility poison spreader, or an SD set up guy gives him hella versatility. Veil/snow being as popular and centralizing as it is hurts Gliscor a lot but once the meta settles and relaxes a bit, I could see him having a very solid place. Would love to see how it goes for Gliscor going forward.
Absolutely demonic under veil. Gets to +3 for free on most of the meta once it's up and just mashes anything in front of it. It still definitely is incredible under rain as well (as its always been), but still feels at its best in the veil. Tera Electric has been by far my favorite on veil teams to troll Zapdos, but I did also like tera water to push this thing to unwallable levels under rain. I don't think it'll be too unmanageable without veil, but while veil is here at its peak, so too is Manaphy.
Did not have high hopes for this due to crazy opportunity cost to use effectively (no item flexibility and mandatory tera to get max value from), but I've been pleasantly surprised. I've only used the fire mask one but man it's cool. It's STAB coverage is so nice, and Ivy Cudgel is a nuclear button once tera'd. Mold Breaker is a neat ability, as you blow through every Unaware mon once tera'd or with an SD, and you can even Taunt stuff like Tera Garg or Ghold. Definitely best under Sun or Veil, as she slots into those archetypes very easily, but definitely can operate on her own too. Just gotta keep the hazards off so it's a bit restricting, but definitely a major threat when supported right.
Maybe not the best option, but damn fun and pretty underrated imo. It's Frankenstein ass 3 in 1 ability is so nice, so it can spam it's Normal STAB relatively stress free. Blood Moon (the move) hits like a damn meteor, and it has solid coverage via its other STAB and non-STAB options. Access to reliable recovery in Moonlight helps SO MUCH due to its lack of speed, and allows it to have multiple chances at doing its thing. Calm Mind feels good too, as its massive HP pool means its can easily get going (especially with the right tera). Vacuum Wave priority with basically scrappy means it can sneak a kill or two in as well on something weakened trying to revenge it. So far I've enjoyed Boots 3 Atk + Moonlight and CM Moonlight 2 Atks. Again, by no means meta defining, but a solid mon in the right conditions.
Real quick rapid fire on some other stuff since this post is getting long:
Chomp is great! Scale Shot is such a breath of fresh airbfor this guy. Bax obviously steals the spotlight but ol' Chomper still can run shit with SD + Scale Shot.
Got Knock Off back so it's back to its old pivoting ways. Maybe not as good as before, but Regen+Knock+U-Turn with that speed will never be bad.
Him and his rain fiends got some neat buffs (Peli got Knock back, Basc got Flip Turn, Thund-T and Zap got weather ball, etc.), and with weather wars being more important than ever (this gen), rains viability going up is huge.
Bro is still Clef. Good mon for sure still even with power creep reaching new heights, Clef stands the test of time.
Veils strongest hater. Court Change feels like a giant middle finger to Veil teams just trying to roll you over (if you can get the change off). Absolutely just as good as it was if not better, fast Taunt/Wisp/Pivot will be good forever.
Low key he's gonna be fire. Poison/Fairy is a bonkers typing and he provides so much utility through status spreading, haze, taunt, etc. And with two great abilities in Levitate and Neutralizing Gas (can defog on ghold I think), I like the look of G-Weezing.
Still wanna try out all the other new stuff and buffed old faces, but for now that's all I've seen/used. TLDR Bax and Veil are heinous (Bax moreso) and but there's some REALLY neat stuff out there. Happy testing and playing all!
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i dunno, the fire one seems like he'd have a fantastic matchup against tales. less so against bax because nothing has a good matchup against bax
Kinda sad that Water Breed didn't get Flip Turn for Intimidate shenanigans but oh well. Can't win them all.
baxcalibur was literally always broken
when will we just accept that we have to ban some threats in the Overused tier lmfao
"ban light clay"
"ban alolan ninetales"
"tier spikes"
etc. etc.
no, just ban broken threats and walls and naturally teams will have more room to breathe
why do people want to tier randomly to fix our own problem of being shitty at tiering Gen 9 OU
nothing in this meta calls for nerfing screens, hazards, whatever. it calls for banning broken pokemon as usual.
suck it up. we will have to ban broken pokemon that do indeed "punish cheese" or whatever playstyle you have decided is skilless. you will have more slots and other pokemon to do the job that doesn't break the tier in half.
when will we just accept that we have to ban some threats in the Overused tier lmfao
"ban light clay"
"ban alolan ninetales"
"tier spikes"
etc. etc.
no, just ban broken threats and walls and naturally teams will have more room to breathe
why do people want to tier randomly to fix our own problem of being shitty at tiering Gen 9 OU
nothing in this meta calls for nerfing screens, hazards, whatever. it calls for banning broken pokemon as usual.
suck it up. we will have to ban broken pokemon that do indeed "punish cheese" or whatever playstyle you have decided is skilless. you will have more slots and other pokemon to do the job that doesn't break the tier in half.
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screens have been enabling stupid shit for this entire generation in a way they didn't do before. they played a non-zero part in the bans of espathra and shed tail because of how easy it is to set up behind them. quick claw wouldn't even have been a discussion if that meme team had been any other archetype because it wouldn't have been able to succeed. i agree that bax is broken and should be banned immediately, but we also have to look into banning alolan ninetales and light clay after that, because veiltales enables a lot more than just bax, it basically puts the entire game on easy mode for eight turns. counterplay to it is very limited—the tauros forms are hyperniche at best, brick break is shittier than shit, defog gets blocked by gholdengo unless you're running mold breaker lucha (bad) or neutralizing gas galarian weezing (good), psychic fangs is a good move but basically doesn't exist because of the number of dark-types around, infiltrator is limited to one mon that can viably run it, and court change is limited to one mon at all. the current meta effectively forces either cinderace or dragapult onto your team if you don't want to instalose to veiltales
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Given that Bax was borderline and probably due for a suspect pre-DLC, I feel like it's def the problem here. A-Tales/light clay can be tested if Frosmoth/Manaphy or some other abuser turns out to broken by it down the line, but for now Bax needs to go.
Fire type Ogerpon is surprisingly really fun. It just kills things. I feel like it has a good chance of staying an OU staple, even if it isn't the best of the best or anything. The other ones feel more niche, but still usable.
Fire type Ogerpon is surprisingly really fun. It just kills things. I feel like it has a good chance of staying an OU staple, even if it isn't the best of the best or anything. The other ones feel more niche, but still usable.
I disagree, I think the meta would barely change with atales ban. Bax was already bordeline and needed a suspect last time, and new tools + the lack of new pressure would make it contentious. All that atales did was make a suspect worthy mon bannable, which to me is not a point in atales side, and its basically most of the mons that get broken by veils.
the issue with banning screens and veils is that its like if we complex banned something from the broken mons instead of just banning the broken mons (i am not saying its a complex ban on itself). Taking away one piece from their kit sure will make the more manageable, but 1. how much will it actually detter them, 2. how many mons were completely fine with it? its messy and ineffective
maybe instead of arguing whether bax or atales is the problem we should just ban them both at the same time and be done with it. this is reminding me of "is shed tail the problem or is it espathra", which was a discussion that caused both of them to linger in the meta for too long
kyurem-black was a fine mon for 3 gens before it got dragon dance and physical ice moves. volcarona was a fine (if not particularly healthy) mon for 4 gens before tera pushed it over the edge. seniority should not be an issue when discussing what does and doesn't have to go. this is not gen 7 or 8, so we should generally avoid citing them in arguments for what to do in gen 9
we cannot argue like that unless veils proves to constantly break pokemon instead of making broken pokemon unberable, when anything else could have tipped that scale. Just because its the newest addition that did it doesnt mean its broken on itself
we really don't have the time to deliberate over things like this. this meta is six suspect tests long at the absolute most, and that's if we do them back-to-back with no surveys or time to settle in between. if there's any time to ban first and ask questions later, it's now
Volc I can't argue the Tera part but I should note that Kyurem-B is a faulty comparison because A-Ninetales itself didn't gain anything itself unless you count the shift from Hail Chip to Snow boost on a mechanics level, where the Kyu-B change was giving moves that filled in long-known holes in how the mon itself played by itself rather than a Meta Shift it capitalized on.
Nah I think the veil is kind of a broken move in general, at least with screens there is far more opportunity cost to using it since you have to take time to get both up rather than the one. Veil is just a crazy busted move, especially with snow this gen. (Hail chip sucks by the way, glad its gone.)
its more of the opposite. this meta is ephemeral and will have the least impact of all the SV OU metas, if we end up with broken stuff unbanned its not going to be a big deal tbh. Not only that, theres things in the tier that are more obviously broken to focus on if you really want to speed things up, instead of targetting something much more debatable in veil
i do count the snow boost as a gain because it makes tales very difficult to kill before it gets a veil up
i think veil is fine when the pool of setters is very limited and they have flaws that make them costly to use. it's not like anyone was using veil abomasnow, and i don't think people are going to switch over to it or alolan vulpix if tales gets the boot. before tales came in, it was a very risky tactic that you only really saw on gimmick teams, and that makes it seem to me like the mon is the problem instead of the move
on some level, sure, whatever happens here doesn't matter much, but on another level, we're still carrying baggage from pre-home that we have yet to deal with. if broken stuff remains unbanned here, it's getting carried over into dlc2, which will add even more mons that are potential problems. if we don't move fast, this meta risks not being in a playable state by the time gen 10 comes out
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Adding on to this, I’d like to bring up an example of the HOME screens discussion.
When the likes of Dragapult screens were practically everywhere in the tier, people were arguing a lot for the ban of screens, or even stored power. Wanna know what happened when the offending offensive threats, Magearna, Volcarona, and Urshifu-RS were banned? Screens disappeared from HOME meta ENTIRELY. Gone. Zip. Ursaluna quickly fell out of favor once its several flaws were revealed, and Sneasler got off the radar once people realized status fishing was all it had. I don’t think i’ve seen it ever since.
And now that there’s a new variant of screens even more efficient with one of the most borderline mons in the tier to begin with in Bax, along with Manaphy, people return to the same old wheel of discussion where people argue that the screens are broken and not the thing behind the screens.
Aurora Veil has never been a problem during the past metagame, while Abomasnow / Frosmoth Hail was a niche playstyle that saw some success, it was nowhere near being broken. The ease and accessibility that Alolan Ninetales has from setting up those screens are much more in tune with the problem at hand. I don't even think Ninetales is necessarely broken either, my ideal course of action with the current problems at hand would be:
Banning main abusers (Baxcalibur/Manaphy) > Banning Alolan Ninetales > Banning Light Clay > Banning Aurora Veil
Banning main abusers (Baxcalibur/Manaphy) > Banning Alolan Ninetales > Banning Light Clay > Banning Aurora Veil
I definitely count it. A-Tales went from having 350/186/236 defenses to having 350/279/236. That's closer to Garganacl than where it started! Actually killing it before it can get Veil off is not really on the table for most mons, unless they're packing either fast or priority Steel moves.
Between the raw bulk snow provides to AV setters, and the actual power of getting 2 moves off in 1 turn, it's a completely different beast than Screens ever were.
Also, ban baxcalibur.
I’d expect a viability list this upcoming week, but formal rankings take a bit.
Speaking as someone who has played BW since 2011, I really disagree. The weather then and the weather now are vastly different and comparing the two doesn’t accomplish anything. Perma-weather and the internal synergy schemes then vs the immediacy forced now and the less distinct archetypes serve wholly different purposes.
It’s been less than a day; this would be the quickest quickban in the history of competitive Pokémon, and that’s including things like Mega Salamence, Magearna, Landorus-I, etc.
My guess is there will be a survey sometime in the next few days, followed by a vote. Let’s be realistic and levelheaded here.
to be fair, it's also one of the shortest metas in the history of competitive pokemon, and i don't really think anyone's going to voice complaints
serperiorr
formerly someidiot19
fair take, what'll probably end up happening is a combination of bax / light clay being banned (I doubt an atales ban would gain much traction). I do think with roaring moon, SD weav (under snow), kingambit, other preDLC sweepers that HO kinda has no reason not to use it and it's a major part of what makes HO potentially broken.
this is an exaggeration, both previous metas were playable, just unbalanced, which will be the status quo for any OU metas from now on with DLC. not only we do not know the landscape of dlc 2 and if the baggage from the previous metas will even matter then, but banning veils will also be a waste of time/a quick ban target rn imo. if you want to optimize time, theres worse things in the tier rn
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