Honestly; I haven't had too many issues with those mons because I've been running my Ogerpon variant on a stall-focused team with Amoonguss, Alomomola, Great Tusk, G-Weezing (Levitate), and Glimmora - Trailblaze still reaches some pretty significant damage thresholds and when chip/status are factored in, I can usually just muscle past quite a few of them (especially with +1 upon Tera)
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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Honestly; I haven't had too many issues with those mons because I've been running my Ogerpon variant on a stall-focused team with Amoonguss, Alomomola, Great Tusk, G-Weezing (Levitate), and Glimmora - Trailblaze still reaches some pretty significant damage thresholds and when chip/status are factored in, I can usually just muscle past quite a few of them (especially with +1 upon Tera)
People freaking over Darkrai need to understand just how weak an 80 BP move is as your only STAB. The NP Dark Pulse + Tera Fairy Blast set will be really bad in practice as without life orb boost, it will miss KOs even at +2, not to mention that it will barely threaten OHKOs unboosted. While Dark + Fairy is amazing for neutral coverage, Darkrai doesn't have the power to abuse it to warrant it staying Ubers.
It's going to be a dangerous sweeper on the merit of being able to run a coverage move such as Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, or Psyshock alongside it's neutral coverage to beat certain threats. But it comes with 4MSS and opportunity cost. Its offensive potential is less than Iron Valiant, who can be equally dangerous both on the physical and special side, has a much better offensive, and defensive typing.
On paper, Valiant can run moves to beat every single check it has. But in practice, mons like Amoongus, Bulky Dengo, and Moltres has been consistently used to check it as Valiant can't afford to run whatever move it pleases. I don't see why the same won't apply to Darkrai.
It's going to be a dangerous sweeper on the merit of being able to run a coverage move such as Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, or Psyshock alongside it's neutral coverage to beat certain threats. But it comes with 4MSS and opportunity cost. Its offensive potential is less than Iron Valiant, who can be equally dangerous both on the physical and special side, has a much better offensive, and defensive typing.
On paper, Valiant can run moves to beat every single check it has. But in practice, mons like Amoongus, Bulky Dengo, and Moltres has been consistently used to check it as Valiant can't afford to run whatever move it pleases. I don't see why the same won't apply to Darkrai.
Hey there! i've been having fun with rain in this post-bax world, running something like this
But i really can't find a fit for the 6th member. I've tried manaphy (both with tail glow and the funny acid armor+take heart set) and sinistcha, but they always feel like they're not carrying their weight.
The biggest weakness i feel is zapdos, atm i just chip it and then wave crash into it but it's always a pain. any suggestions?
Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hurricane
- Surf
- U-turn
- Roost
Basculegion (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
Samurott-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sacred Sword
- Flip Turn
Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Stomping Tantrum
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Sneasler @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dire Claw
- Night Slash
Dont' question the all-water-moves bascu. Just don't.
Ability: Drizzle
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hurricane
- Surf
- U-turn
- Roost
Basculegion (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet
- Flip Turn
Samurott-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sacred Sword
- Flip Turn
Rillaboom @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Stomping Tantrum
- Knock Off
- U-turn
Sneasler @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dire Claw
- Night Slash
Dont' question the all-water-moves bascu. Just don't.
But i really can't find a fit for the 6th member. I've tried manaphy (both with tail glow and the funny acid armor+take heart set) and sinistcha, but they always feel like they're not carrying their weight.
The biggest weakness i feel is zapdos, atm i just chip it and then wave crash into it but it's always a pain. any suggestions?
Have you tried washtom? Good ol reliable. Im on mobile but a standard specially defensive set might be what you need
Perhaps Thundurus-T? Immune to Volt Switch and can pressure Zapdos with strong Thunders. Iron Treads could be another options since it would give you a Spinner / SR setter.
the same principle has applied to broken mons that have been banned previously though, including post HOME volc (tera ground had different answers than tera water). sure it can't run all of knock/thunderbolt/psyshock/moonblast/cc/cm/sd/encore/trick/gimmicky tera blast stuff on one set, but the fact that it can potentially run all these things made it very difficult to check. DLC1 has introduced some defensive counterplay to it though, but during home it was borderline unhealthy imo. And, as you said, the same will apply to darkrai.
I'm running AV rillaboom so i do have something that tanks special moves and pivots! But washtom is still a nice idea thanks. I do like the idea of having a whisper on the team
I think thundurus is the best idea but i really want to try treads... What set is that thing (not) running nowdays?
Honestly, its been a while since I've used Treads, but I think it runs a set like this on Rain?
Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
The match-up with Zapdos is a bit iffy since you also can't do much damage to it, but Knocking off its Boots and setting up Rocks can wear it down considerably. Tusk + Zap may be annoying to deal with, since Iron Treads can't make much progress vs Tusk w/o running a special set and Tusk can just spin away the rocks. Stuff like Basculegion can't switch in safely because of Knock.
I kinda think you wanna run Volt Switch on this set too, since it would synergize with Flip Turn. but idk what move to replace since you want Knock to pressure Zap. Maybe Spin if you don't mind hazards too much?
I would have the crazy idea to not run EQ but that could just be too much. I normally just switch rilla/pelliper into tusk but its still not a great situation, i agree. I'll try this out, thanks!
We've been making Focus Miss memes for over a decade. People avoid Thunder and Blizzard outside of weather despite their power because they're not accurate enough. Everyone probably had a "I lost the game because Torn-T missed a Hurricane" story.
I cannot fathom "Darkrai is broken because Hypnosis" as anything but grasping at straws. If the lynchpin of its power is a ridiculously inaccurate move that costs it extremely important coverage that makes it predictable as fuck and could get its user killed for missing, then Darkrai is probably fine. I'd still be far more scared of a Booster Energy Valiant in the lategame anyway.
I cannot fathom "Darkrai is broken because Hypnosis" as anything but grasping at straws. If the lynchpin of its power is a ridiculously inaccurate move that costs it extremely important coverage that makes it predictable as fuck and could get its user killed for missing, then Darkrai is probably fine. I'd still be far more scared of a Booster Energy Valiant in the lategame anyway.
valiant is a bad example because it should also be ubers
I don't know anything about Darkrai, and I'm not arguing with you because of that. But if it's a 60% to basically win the game on its own, 40% chance to do fuck all, I'd call that uncompetitive, and should be removed.
I'm not saying that Hypnosis is a good argument against it, although all these comments are making me believe this is the case. I really don't know.
Unless is your opponent using those moves, then in that case you're just gonna Focus Blast the first thing in front of you if you lose a game like that.
But seriously, moves with a low accuracy can create an unheatly metagame focused (not pun intended) mostly on luck and not the actual skill, and Hypnosis, even if has an accuracy lower than Focus Blast, Blizzard and Thunder, when it hits you just basically have free turns in which you can damage the opponent or setup on it.
Still I'm completely neutral with the Darkrai argument that rn is going on.
Is it really a 60% to outright win? Again, a Darkrai running NP + Hypnosis only has a single coverage option, and it's not going to break a competent team on its own with that. That means it's best used as a lategame cleaner, and we have more consistent and potent ones already.
i am not convinced life orb is a good item in modern gens. in SS the only 'mons that often ran it were clefable (magic guard) and weavile; most offensive options such as rillaboom, garchomp, kartana, and blaziken ended up settling with other item choices in leftovers and protective pads as the metagame progressed. in SV i think life orb is even worse as priority has doubled, lowkey tripled in strength. priority distribution is only getting wider now with vacuum wave iron valiant & bloodmoon, grassy glide rillaboom, and next dlc raging bolt. the only 'mon that *commonly* ran life orb pre-DLC was baxcalibur and that was only due to ice body cheating life orb recoil on that amazing mind gaming team. hazard control is also in an awful state this gen which makes the item choice even more questionable in my opinion.
you can post a laundry list of damage calculations regarding +2 life orb darkrai all you want but the same can be said about other threats in our metagame, all of which don't opt for it. for example sneasler has similar offensive stats and can use swords dance + life orb. sneasler unlike darkrai has two stab options: one being 120BP close combat and the other being dire claw, one of the most broken moves of all time. add tera fighting and shadow claw as coverage and a list of damage calculations can show you how this 'mon has no counters bar physically defensive landorus-t. on the special spectrum i'll bring up tornadus-t, whose sole stab at +2 has similar rolls to darkrai's dark pulse because bleakwind storm is 100BP. sneasler and tornadus-t also have actual abilities in poison touch and regenerator unlike bad dreams which has few in-game applications.
in no way am i saying darkrai = tornadus-t / sneasler but if you look past the fact of "omg it's darkrai," it's really not all that. 135/125 offensive stats are nothing new to fairy gens while it has an impractical ability, barely passable bulk, a reliance on focus miss, and a singular 80BP stab option. to give even more context i want to drop a list of the more passive balance, bulky offense, and stall structures spammed towards the end of home & OLT swiss:
View attachment 552808
i'm not convinced dropping darkrai would suddenly fuck up the metagame, far from it in fact. in the case of CTC's balance, life orb darkrai doesn't have many safe entry points due to how sketch it can be coming in hard on gholdengo's make it rain or dondozo's body press for example. even when you do get it in, clicking nasty plot is awkward when 'mons such as dondozo, ting-lu, and specially defensive moltres can trade damage before pivoting dragonite for the revenge kill. speaking of awkward interactions, great tusk, the most used 'mon in the tier (for most of SV), resists both dark pulse + sludge bomb. that means nasty plot darkrai's best move for it is focus miss. because of this your best opportunity for set-up against these structures are vs zapdos, rotom-w, and slowking-g, all which commonly run thunder wave. the latter often runs colbur berry too considering how oppressive sd iron valiant can be. the stall and sneasler teams do not struggle vs nasty plot darkrai bar psyshock variants, which i am not convinced is a good option as fairies such as clefable are slowly reintroduced into the game. i say all of this without mentioning hazard damage by the way, which are notoriously difficult to remove, even more-so now with the introduction of spikes gliscor and ogerpon.
even if you bring darkrai out on something like cinderace for example, life orb dark pulse only does around 67% while it u-turn's out for a sizable portion, handicapping your darkrai when you factor subsequent life orb + hazards damage. because of this and SV's climate, i don't think life orb will be its best set but actually heavy duty boots. a set of dark pulse / focus blast / sludge bomb / ice beam sounds much more likely to be its flagship, being comfortable switching in this hazard heavy climate and giving us a strong, but not overbearing special attacker. darkrai is piss weak without life orb after all; it reminds me of a special zamazenta where it theoretically has coverage for a ton of 'mons, but requires significant support and/or chip to pick up ko's. i am being generous with this zamazenta comparison by the way as darkrai has mediocre bulk and a limited defensive profile. offensively it also wants all of ice beam, psyshock, thunder, taunt, nasty plot, will-o-wisp, and knock off for wider match-up coverage in its 4th slot. dropping sludge bomb and focus miss are non-negotiable for fairy-types and kingambit respectively. lastly choice specs could be a nice middle ground of both worlds, having more longevity than life orb and still keeping the power but this 'mon being locked into dark pulse and non-stab attacks do not worry me at all.
i have seen a lot of players claim darkrai brings no value to the tier. i respectfully disagree and this is not me playing the contrarian. a trait of SV i feel is underdiscussed is how low the speed tiers are compared to SS & SM. zamazenta and dragapult almost always opt for +attacking natures while choice scarf is near non-existent as an item. darkrai's introduction would put more emphasis on speed, reducing the power creep to an extent. booster energy iron valiant is the only relevant outlier when it comes to speed tiers this generation tbh. gliscor is also an S-tier rank 'mon post-baxcalibur ban (imo), extremely oppressive even without roost..... having a solid non-hazard weak ice beam 'mon would be appreciated, similar to m-latias in gen7. gholdengo is another nasty mafucka so having another check / way to force it to defensive tera would be dope. it's not like we're freeing arceus-dark or some shit to accomplish this. to give you an idea of boots darkrai's damage output, ice beam does ~26% to ting-lu while dark pulse barely pushes the 30% range against garganacl. SV not only has an insane offensive power creep but a defensive one too. i also forgot to mention the 'mons we already have such as toxapex, ogerpon-water, clodsire, heatran, moltres, tinkaton (was good pre-DLC), hoopa-u, zamazenta, sneasler, kommo-o, specially defensive rotom-w, stall blissey... which should all be able to soft check it minimum unless it opts to drop ice beam for a fringe option such as psyshock, knock off, or thunder. finally i believe boots darkrai will challenge us to play more creatively instead of mindlessly throwing out our static/flame body 'mon at a threat and praying for a proc.
not only do i think darkrai is fine, but after typing this out i believe it is more balanced than volcarona. yes, i said it. i would expect it to be A+ for the rest of the generation, but not overbearing to the point it needs a ban. this is also factoring tera. but if a tera ban was to happen i don't think this shit would even be A+ rank tbh. maybe A, no disrespect. that said, i would not test it now. this test would have to come after DLC2 stabilizes as it will be less likely to be a "temporary metagame," along with the introduction of new priority, more speed control, and a wider array of dex additions to amplify its 4MSS.
LO on BB Gren goes hard af- but yeah 95% of the time LO is noob bait right up there with AV lol
On paper, in a vacuum, this is an amazing argument for Darkrai. The last thing we need rn is a mon that forces something to take a Sleep. Spore is already a chore to switch into and free turns in singles has always been lowkey broken. Even if we ignore that, which I'm willing to do for the sake of argument, Tera breaks this thing straight up. The only shot Darkrai has is post-Tera.
Thanks for this post king. You said everything I would have said but better. Boots would probably be the best item, but Wide Lens might be 2nd best. 66% chance for some free turns, and as you've shown when it gets that free turn to NP the thing barely has soft checks lol.
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Players, dropping an Uber isn't going to make this meta more fun or balanced...
dark pulse and fairy tera blast tears through the whole pokedex except for zacian-c and magearna (lol), klefki, geezing, the tinkaton line and fezandipiti. i can think of plenty of competent teams that breaks
I might even agree with your point, i do generally think darkrai isn't that much stronger than something like Iron valiant, but isn't the threshold for unbanning/dropping something from ubers not only the fact that it's not broken but the fact it would somewhat add something to the meta/improve it?
Having another fast sweeper that can use tera to get off a setup move and closes games does not seem like a particularly good addition to this meta that is already centered around stuff like that.
I'm not saying it is, I said I dunno. My point was, if it truly were a 60% chance of an autowin, that's good enough for me to ban it.
EDIT: Er, I'm also not arguing against this quoted post as well. Just clarifying my statement.
Does Shaymin-S ever get unbanned eventually or is Seed Flare / Air Slash - Serene Grace still way too strong?
First of all, Vert just made a massive post including explanations of the potential benefits that dropping Darkrai down would bring.
Second of all: not really? Some Uber drops didn't add anything to OU and have ended up in lower tiers. If it's not broken or a negative influence it shouldn't be banned. Plus we can't even truly evaluate that without trying it.
I mean, a meta based around that is already kind of equipped to deal with it. The question is if Darkrai would actually be overbearing by those standards, which I don't believe.
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at this point just bring down arceus to ou
"these arceus ting lu dondozo cores are really annoying, I think we should drop down Calyrex Shadow in order to keep them in check"
Every single "potential benefit" that darkrai could bring is already brought to the table by weavile.
125 speed forcing zama and pult to go jolly? yup. Boots mon with ice moves to hit gliscor? Yup. No contact way to hit zapdos? Yup. Hits ghold and forces the defensive tera? Yup. Weavile already does all of this.
Darkrai does not improve this tier in any way.
I was tempted to bring up Gen 5 Kyurem (the normal one) since i believe it ended up as UU, but I'm not sure if it started out as an Uber or if was just allowed to be playable from day 1 because it's an Ice-type.
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