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I didn't have time to experiment much with it but Nuetralizing Gas vs Levitate is something I still have to wrap my head around. In particular, while the former allows to Defog on Ghold (on switch) and beat Gliscor (after a few turns) and Garg, the latter can beat Tusk, Chomp, Lando and wall Gliscor and Clod. Honestly I think on a game-to-game basis, Levitate does seem like the more versatile ability, especially for the Tusk match-up, but Neutralizing Gas can have its uses on certain teams
The way I see it is, if you use Gas, you use Defog, if you use Weezing for other purposes (walling almost all Grounds), you use Levitate.
If for some reason you want Defog + Levitate, you should use Tera Fire Flamethrower + some special Attack EVs. Weezing will be taking a lot from Shadow Ball, but at least will resist Make It Rain and can sometimes force Gholdengo out.
Similarly, if you use Gas, then Tera Flying is a good idea, Weezing has enough bulk to take some coverage from Tusk. Main niche of Tera Flying + Gas is completely ruining Gliscor. Tera Bug and Grass are also decent options. Other defensive Tera types like Water and Fairy should work too, but you will need to be more careful vs Grounds.
This is probably a very intuitive question but how are dragon types faring in walling Fogerpon since its takes on both it's fire and grass STAB, and certain mons can take on knock like Kommo-o? Are there even viable ways to run defensive dragon types in this point in the meta? Does Tera Fire cudgel just nuke them in 2 hits and make it a worthless effort?
This is probably a very intuitive question but how are dragon types faring in walling Fogerpon since its takes on both it's fire and grass STAB, and certain mons can take on knock like Kommo-o? Are there even viable ways to run defensive dragon types in this point in the meta? Does Tera Fire cudgel just nuke them in 2 hits and make it a worthless effort?
This is probably a very intuitive question but how are dragon types faring in walling Fogerpon since its takes on both it's fire and grass STAB, and certain mons can take on knock like Kommo-o? Are there even viable ways to run defensive dragon types in this point in the meta? Does Tera Fire cudgel just nuke them in 2 hits and make it a worthless effort?
Dragonite is pretty much your best bet for defense dragon that "walls" heatstroke. (Needs further testing)
Else from that, just try to abuse speed tiers with pult on hard SD/Horn leech switches, or other dragons by simply spamming the living shit outta eq, since they (ogerpon) can't tera else they combust.
The way I see it is, if you use Gas, you use Defog, if you use Weezing for other purposes (walling almost all Grounds), you use Levitate.
If for some reason you want Defog + Levitate, you should use Tera Fire Flamethrower + some special Attack EVs. Weezing will be taking a lot from Shadow Ball, but at least will resist Make It Rain and can sometimes force Gholdengo out.
Similarly, if you use Gas, then Tera Flying is a good idea, Weezing has enough bulk to take some coverage from Tusk. Main niche of Tera Flying + Gas is completely ruining Gliscor. Tera Bug and Grass are also decent options. Other defensive Tera types like Water and Fairy should work too, but you will need to be more careful vs Grounds.
I would add that Gas should run Toxic over Sludge Bomb to maximize it's matct-up against Garg and Tera Water Clef, maybe with Strange Steam to punish Chomp and Tusk harder on the switch. I would also add that Defog is also a very valid option on Levitate due to maintaining the Spikes immunity (with Tera Fire Flamethrower for Ghold)
its also not about Gholdengo being broken, its about it being overcentralizing. That doesn't mean its on every team, moreso that every team has to specifically account for it, and that its easy to put onto nearly any team. Honestly, the metagame has stabilized to the point that hazard spam is the obvious answer, as not only does ghold support that, but its also the only way passive walls can make any progress in a game since ghold is completely immune to or invalidates so much
I'm curious of people's opinions on this interpretation of overcentralizing, because come on, every meta will have threats that every team has to account for. Is it even desirable to have a meta where you don't have to prepare for popular threats? As a thought experiment, if we ended up in a meta without any centralization, where every OU poke is at 5% usage, no more no less, people will complain about the opposite - you can't prepare for anything. Are we really discussing banning a mon because everyone has to think of it when building? If that's a valid reason to ban, then 1/2 of OU needs to go. And once the UU becomes OU meta stabilizes, a new 1/2 of OU would need to go, and so on. There is no theoretically perfect meta where everything soft checks each other and teambuilding consists of blanket generalized preparation. Each mon is unique, and counterplay to each is unique. That's just the nature of pokemon.
Good mons are gonna get used. A lot. If they aren't broken, everyone having to prepare for them isn't some undue burden, that's just teambuilding. A team that doesn't account for the top threats in that meta is just a bad team. What am I missing? When does this dynamic break? When are the top ten mons in usage NOT overcentralizing? I'll hang up and listen.
not really. any competent team is going to be running stuff that gholdengo doesn't like, true, but that's more about how many really good dark moves and ground-type mons exist right now (and of course the broken-ass fire-type running around). none of that stuff is run specifically for gholdengo. for example, when you slot ting-lu or tusk or kingambit onto a team, you're not specifically thinking of gholdengo even though they have good matchups against most of its sets. you're thinking "hazard setter" or "rapid spinner" or "free win button in the endgame", not "gholdengo check". the only mon that is ou specifically because of gholdengo is gholdengo
I'm curious of people's opinions on this interpretation of overcentralizing, because come on, every meta will have threats that every team has to account for. Is it even desirable to have a meta where you don't have to prepare for popular threats? As a thought experiment, if we ended up in a meta without any centralization, where every OU poke is at 5% usage, no more no less, people will complain about the opposite - you can't prepare for anything. Are we really discussing banning a mon because everyone has to think of it when building? If that's a valid reason to ban, then 1/2 of OU needs to go. And once the UU becomes OU meta stabilizes, a new 1/2 of OU would need to go, and so on. There is no theoretically perfect meta where everything soft checks each other and teambuilding consists of blanket generalized preparation. Each mon is unique, and counterplay to each is unique. That's just the nature of pokemon.
Good mons are gonna get used. A lot. If they aren't broken, everyone having to prepare for them isn't some undue burden, that's just teambuilding. A team that doesn't account for the top threats in that meta is just a bad team. What am I missing? When does this dynamic break? When are the top ten mons in usage NOT overcentralizing? I'll hang up and listen.
Overcentralizing means a Pokemon that requires excessive counterplay to beat of you lose barring your opponent makes a massive mistake that’s entirely unreliable.
I remember there was this image showing difference between Landorus-T and Naganadel in Gen 7 OU, where on Landorus-T’s side you have a bunch of arrows pointing to threats like Mega Mawile, Heatran, Mega Charizard, etc. signifying that Landorus-T was popular for helping deal with all those threats. Meanwhile Naganadel was the opposite showing arrows pointing at it with Pokemon like Icium Blizzard Blissey and AV Tyranitar, signifying that Naganadel requires you to use sets like those to not instantly lose.
Gholdengo is on the Landorus-T side. If Gholdengo was really centralizing, we’d see a lot more niche stuff like Defog Hawlucha appear more often.
Gholdengo isn't really overcentralizing because most of the top mons give it a hard time(Physical val, Moltres, Gambit, Tusk, Hearthflame, Hamurott, etc), and these mons are all good in their own right so it's not like Ghold checking is what gives them their niche
dengo was supposed to go/be tested even before h-samurott, like around february 2023 there is no reason to keep that thing in ou
a pokemon can't be considered uber only because has 670 bst, dengo is the closest thing to xy aegislash and how he was able to make almost useless some pokemons, but dengo is even stronger (and aegi was "virtually" a 720 bst pokemon)
spinblock, status + poison + fight + normal immunity are worth a lot more than 100 bst, it can
run a speed set with scarf + optional, trick just to stallbreak a little
bulky set with recover + nplot, antispin and wallbreaker in a single slot
fast set with 3 attack (tbolt, dgleam) + nplot
bulky with twave + hex
specs + trick
lure for baiting dark types with fblast
lure with psyshock for blissey
and probably more will come out just to adapt; amoonguss, clefable, corv, mandibuzz would totally benefit if he goes, all pokemon that help balanced/bo and probably even stalls and hazard control
another big issue, who made broken latios and gengar for the 4 gen remakes is the lack of pursuit + u can't trap him with magnezone because is a ghost; there are also a lot more pokemons that got knock off back for hbd, so playing hazards is more profitable than ever
looking back at old metagames there was VERY STRONG hazard removers like latwins for gen 6 or starmie for gen 3: tusk alone is strong but isn't reliable to spin more than 1 or 2 times in a match if he constantly need to guess against dengo, it has no recovery moves, get normal spikes damage, no status immunity, fast-but not so fast and so on
blissey in full stall teams was forced to run cm + sball for beating nplot + recover dengo, after u tera flying ting lu can't really touch you if he isn't prepared with stone edge; 2 of the strongest special walls ever are forced to adapt to dengo
You don't need specific things to beat Gholdengo, but the things that Gholdengo beats it utterly annihilates and thus drives many mons out of the metagame in an absolutely backbreaking fashion. Given it's unique ability to be immune to status moves and it's excellent typing and solid bulk, there are just a ton of mons that it can switch in on with essentially no risk. So, while it may not be overcentralizing in the sense that it requires specific answers, it can be overcentralizing in that it drives out a significant number of mons from the meta, causing the meta to become centralized around the mons that do not get utterly dumped on by Gholdengo. For example, on paper Mandibuzz seemed like it could have been a cool new addition to the meta but it turns out it can't actually beat Gholdengo and is just not able to do the job it was meant to do at all (despite a typing advantage).
I'm curious of people's opinions on this interpretation of overcentralizing, because come on, every meta will have threats that every team has to account for. Is it even desirable to have a meta where you don't have to prepare for popular threats? As a thought experiment, if we ended up in a meta without any centralization, where every OU poke is at 5% usage, no more no less, people will complain about the opposite - you can't prepare for anything. Are we really discussing banning a mon because everyone has to think of it when building? If that's a valid reason to ban, then 1/2 of OU needs to go. And once the UU becomes OU meta stabilizes, a new 1/2 of OU would need to go, and so on. There is no theoretically perfect meta where everything soft checks each other and teambuilding consists of blanket generalized preparation. Each mon is unique, and counterplay to each is unique. That's just the nature of pokemon.
Good mons are gonna get used. A lot. If they aren't broken, everyone having to prepare for them isn't some undue burden, that's just teambuilding. A team that doesn't account for the top threats in that meta is just a bad team. What am I missing? When does this dynamic break? When are the top ten mons in usage NOT overcentralizing? I'll hang up and listen.
Glad you asked! There's a good reason I'm complaining about Gholdengo and not the other pokemon that are top 10 in usage. The difference to me here is the restrictiveness of the pokemon.
Say I'm running a pokemon like Rock Ogerpon. If I'm running SD, Horn Leech, Ivy Cudgel, I really only have 1 more slot to hit things that would attempt to wall me. Play Rough is a good option for dragons/fights, while superpower is an option for Steels. However in either of these cases I still have to worry about Gholdengo. Gholdengo would get me to run Knock off to hit him specifically. Sure Knock off also hits Cresselia a little harder, but I really am just running it purely for Gholdengo.
Now say I use a pokemon like Ting Lu. A pokemon with more usage than Gholdengo, Great Tusk, threatens Ting Lu's whole game plan, and Ting Lu doesn't have a ton to hit it back. Now if I play Ting Lu, I want to run Ruination as a way to deal good damage to Great Tusk. The difference here is, practically, I'm not running Ruination to deal with Great Tusk alone. Its also a great way of neutrally doing half to much of the metagame, pressuring roosts pp from Zap, Corv & Molt, breaking through Hatterene which would otherwise be a threat, hitting Rotom Wash, and getting a lot of damage off on a setup Torterra or Zamazenta. Ruination isnt JUST for Great Tusk. Glimmora is another example in running Energy Ball for Great Tusk primarily, but also uses it as a way of hitting LandoT, Samurott-Hisui, and Rotom Wash harder, while still hitting Garg if its running EB over Earth Power.
If it was just Rock Ogerpon annoyed by Gholdengo, I would be fine. But there are several other pokemon who have to specifically think of Ghold in team building. Sneaslers need Night Slash as a way of doing anything at all. Scizor needs Night Slash. Breloom Bulldoze. Two othewise potential OU mons. And for walls: Amoongus running foul play, Blissey Shadow Ball, Clef Fire blast where it could otherwise run Thunderwave to cripple steels. That on top of the mons that are also partially thinking of Ghold in their movesets: Shadow Ball on Special Val, Munkidori, and Non Cm Cresselias, KommoO with Flamethrower over a Fighting move or when it runs EQ, Garg with EQ in the case of Covert Cloak, Weezing Galar with Fire Blast where it could maybe run wisp instead... Gholdengo finds itself in the "niche" scenario in a lot of mons movesets.
This while being immune to strategies that can traditionally deal with walls: Encore, Taunt, Trick.. Hell, Leech Seed, Twave, Toxic, and Sleep as well which annoy walls: its completely immune. Gholdengo invalidates a lot of tools. It isn't as strong on the bulk side as something like Corv or Pex who can also be very restrictive. That may be a reason HO players don't seem to notice Ghold too much. But the effect Ghold has on the bulkier side of the meta is definitely pretty oppressive and is another contributing factor to the usage drop of many walls.
dengo was supposed to go/be tested even before h-samurott, like around february 2023 there is no reason to keep that thing in ou
a pokemon can't be considered uber only because has 670 bst, dengo is the closest thing to xy aegislash and how he was able to make almost useless some pokemons, but dengo is even stronger (and aegi was "virtually" a 720 bst pokemon)
spinblock, status + poison + fight + normal immunity are worth a lot more than 100 bst, it can
run a speed set with scarf + optional, trick just to stallbreak a little
bulky set with recover + nplot, antispin and wallbreaker in a single slot
fast set with 3 attack (tbolt, dgleam) + nplot
bulky with twave + hex
specs + trick
lure for baiting dark types with fblast
lure with psyshock for blissey
and probably more will come out just to adapt; amoonguss, clefable, corv, mandibuzz would totally benefit if he goes, all pokemon that help balanced/bo and probably even stalls and hazard control
another big issue, who made broken latios and gengar for the 4 gen remakes is the lack of pursuit + u can't trap him with magnezone because is a ghost; there are also a lot more pokemons that got knock off back for hbd, so playing hazards is more profitable than ever
looking back at old metagames there was VERY STRONG hazard removers like latwins for gen 6 or starmie for gen 3: tusk alone is strong but isn't reliable to spin more than 1 or 2 times in a match if he constantly need to guess against dengo, it has no recovery moves, get normal spikes damage, no status immunity, fast-but not so fast and so on
blissey in full stall teams was forced to run cm + sball for beating nplot + recover dengo, after u tera flying ting lu can't really touch you if he isn't prepared with stone edge; 2 of the strongest special walls ever are forced to adapt to dengo
Saying that stall teams are forced to run certain sets is really stupid because by that logic ursaluna is suddenly the best mon in ou since it literally 6-0s all forms of stall.
Having set versatility/compression isn't inherently bannable: look at tusk and Lando last gen, both of which have tons of viable sets yet are still fine and balanced
Of course mons benefit if it goes, but is it oppressive enough to get banned? Not really, hazards are more oppressive of course but that's also due to most spinners/defoggers being wiped from existence and the rest kind of falling off, Gholdengo isn't the sole reason for this and I think it's unfair to put it all it and try to argue for its ban
I’m hearing a ton bout Fire and Waterpon, but what about vannila and rockpon? Rock gets a built-in Focus Sash as well as a 120 100% rock stab, and Rock and Grass actually synergize well defensively and offensively. Grasspon gets Defiant, which gives it a free SD when it‘s stats get lowered. Plus speed boost on Tera, the only downside is the lack of a second stab.
Saying that stall teams are forced to run certain sets is really stupid because by that logic ursaluna is suddenly the best mon in ou since it literally 6-0s all forms of stall.
Having set versatility/compression isn't inherently bannable: look at tusk and Lando last gen, both of which have tons of viable sets yet are still fine and balanced
Of course mons benefitif it goes, but is it oppressive enough to get banned? Not really, hazards are more oppressive of course but that's also due to most spinners/defoggers being wiped from existence and the rest kind of falling off, Gholdengo isn't the sole reason for this and I think it's unfair to put it all it and try to argue for its ban
Yeah but ursaluna isnt really as great vs offense. Gholdengo can beat stall while being useful vs offense while being useful ON offense and on hazard stack.. many team varieties. Of course youre right set versatility is not an inherent issue but its a contributing factor for ghold. Ghold's very real role in the hazards meta is also a contributing factor.
Also, how is forcing an entire archetype to run specific sets NOT broken? If pokemon printed mega uber fuck u corviknight with twice the hp 100pp roost and thick fat + unaware in one ability and you were forced to run an electric move on every pokemon to even touch it I dont think HO players would be very happy.
Yall just say unhealthy, gholdengo is a strong mon but people aren't building teams specifically not to lose to it. I think it does deserve a suspect since people have made valid points and it is dumb with how you can't even trick the thing. However, I think it has to wait until after Ogerpon goes, I've only really seen the fire variant at work, but it's dumb strong and I'm surprised it hasn't gotten enough support for a fast quickban like bax.
Yall just say unhealthy, gholdengo is a strong mon but people aren't building teams specifically not to lose to it. I think it does deserve a suspect since people have made valid points and it is dumb with how you can't even trick the thing. However, I think it have to wait until after Ogerpon goes, I've only really seen the fire variant at work, but it's dumb strong and I'm surprised it hasn't gotten enough support for a fast quickban like bax.
I think a quickban vote for it may be something we see tonight, as I think support will be far higher for firepon this time without Bax being in the spotlight
Fire Ogerpon definitely gotta go
Fire/Grass stab plus mold breaker with a third coverage move, usually play rough with SD
She are become death, destroyer of worlds OU
I think a quickban vote for it may be something we see tonight, as I think support will be far higher for firepon this time without Bax being in the spotlight
I’m hearing a ton bout Fire and Waterpon, but what about vannila and rockpon? Rock gets a built-in Focus Sash as well as a 120 100% rock stab, and Rock and Grass actually synergize well defensively and offensively. Grasspon gets Defiant, which gives it a free SD when it‘s stats get lowered. Plus speed boost on Tera, the only downside is the lack of a second stab.
Both are also good for different reasons but are usually weaker than their two counterparts, with vanilla being the weakest. Rock’s strength is its flexibility as a lead due to Sturdy and ability to give itself a damage reduction on most priority moves after Tera, but it doesn’t have the same overall defensive utility of Water Ogerpon nor the insane offensive potential of Fire Ogerpon. Vanilla kind of requires Tera to be a consistent threat in comparison to the other 3 because the lack of secondary STAB doesn’t do it much favors, but the passive speed boost after Tera can be really strong in conjunction with a Choice Band. If you can’t afford to consistently Tera it though, it competes a lot with Meowscarada who has STAB on Knock, the option to run Protean U-Turn, & a better speed tier.
Gholdengo is a special case of overcentralizing, because while it isn't overcentralizing like Naganadel and more like Landorus-T, it enables Spikes to become overcentralizing by virtue of just existing in the metagame. Think about it this way: people might run Corv more if every other matchup wasn't against hazard stack ghold and it being complete setup bait (barring U-turn, which is prediction similar to my point about Great Tusk but, unlike tusk, it doesn't actually do anything to the Ghold), making the game ALMOST a 5v6. In this way, you are disincentivized to run Corv, and instead run HDB which is actually useful in those matchups AND others. This leads to the meta being centralized not around hazards and hazard removal, but instead around item removal. Think of how many viable users of knock we have in OU right now: off the top of my head, there's Tusk, Valiant, Meow, Lokix, Gliscor, Mandibuzz, Lokix, Ogerpon, Samurott, Lokix, Dogi, and of course, Lokix (you could also count RM, Treads, Hoopa, and Tornadus from UU.) This is the reason Dark as a typing has been so prevalent this gen, despite Tusk: they control both sides of the hazard process with Knock and Edge. It's the reason Hamurott is worth using as a suicide lead: its 2-3 layers of spikes are likely never going to get removed, or if they do, it comes at the cost of free setup for something on the team.
The thing is, I'm not sure there's anything to be done about it. A potential Gholdengo ban effectively only brings back 1, maybe 2 viable defoggers in Corv and Mandi. This admittedly does give a nice defogger to more balanced teams, but I'm unsure if it would really be enough to combat the influx of viable spikes users in the tier. We've got Gliscor, Chomp, Glimm, Hamurott, Ting, to a lesser extent Clod, the protean bros, and Shocks for just spikes, and Tusk, Tran, Garg, Clef, arguably Empoleon, and Lando as SEPERATE pokemon that don't run spikes, as many of the spikers get rocks too. Many of these actually beat Corv/Tusk anyway, as seen here:
Gliscor sits on Tusk without ice spinner, and continual earthquakes wear tusk down. Admittedly can't do anything to corv, but corv also can't do anything to it either, and it knocks off its leftovers anyway.
Chomp murders both Tusk and Corv with LO Draco or Fire Blast, and rapid spins/uturns wear them down quick with rough skin. One of the few things Mandibuzz actually beats.
Glimm runs Energy Ball for Tusk already; Power gem is only a 3HKO and uncommon on it anyway, but Corv sets tspikes on switch out with U-turn, which means you have to manually switch, potentially into an attack.
Hamurott runs Hpump for Tusk, but admittedly gets beaten hard by Corv. Although uncommon, can run taunt, but Corv can also just u-turn or body press.
Ting-Lu uses Ruination to stall Corv's Roost PP and can potentially predict the roost with EQ while taking minimal damage from BP with Leftovers. Loses to tusk, but can potentially get off a ruination before it gets forced out.
Clod can only potentially get off a toxic on Tusk, but also has extreme 4mss and isn't great anyway. Mandi loses the hardest.
Shocks beats Corv naturally, Tusk if it commits to Tera or if Tusk is low, and Mandi.
Gren beats Tusk, LO Gren beats Corv, and ice beam beats Mandi
Meow beats Tusk, but loses hard to mandi and corv as they run u-turn, generating momentum
Lando is just Gliscor but worse when it comes purely to setting rocks. Still beats tusk minus ice spinner, but if it turns out they do have it, you take much more punishment due to lack of recovery
Tran beats Corv and can beat Great Tusk with Air Balloon/Tera. Traps Mandi and wastes its pp
Empo scares Tusk out with Water STAB. Doesn't beat Corv per say, but can stack passive damage with Knock + Scald burns.
Garg beats Corv without Cloak but doesn't beat Tusk.
And really, even if you do successfully have a defogger that doesn't lose to the hazard setters, their teammates are most definitely going to be things it loses to and that it gives a free switch as it defogs. It's so much easier just to run boots on the things that are particularly affected by hazards for most people, and I don't think banning Ghold with change that, so I think we're just gonna have to accept that this is the hazard generation and deal with it.
Say I'm running a pokemon like Rock Ogerpon. If I'm running SD, Horn Leech, Ivy Cudgel, I really only have 1 more slot to hit things that would attempt to wall me. Play Rough is a good option for dragons/fights, while superpower is an option for Steels. However in either of these cases I still have to worry about Gholdengo. Gholdengo would get me to run Knock off to hit him specifically. Sure Knock off also hits Cresselia a little harder, but I really am just running it purely for Gholdengo.
That’s not overcentralizing nor is it actually required on specifically Sword Dance Ogerpon.
You have Stomping Tantrum
You have just +2 Ivy Cudgel/Power Whip after chip
You have +2 Tera Ivy Cudgel after hazard damage
You have teammates which can soften Gholdengo up, which is how 99% of all sweeps.
It’s also not like these options are bad either.
Knock Off still removes items and hits non-Kingambit steels neutrally.
Stomping Tantrum gives you Rock-Ground coverage that still hits most things and hits stuff like Okidogi.
Tera Rock Ogerpon means you get +1 Def which means priority is less of an issue.
And so on.
This is like saying Swampert in ADV is overcentralizing because a bunch of physical attackers use HP Grass to beat it.
So basically the current vibes are:
Nobody wants firepon in this meta because it's just physical chi-yu and we already had a full season of memes about stuff hitting in sun with tera fire and getting OHKOs on tanks
A lot of ppl don't like Gholdie because he is just hard to deal with and makes hazards very unapproachable
And then there's like the kingambit stuff (we know about of the half of the playerbase really doesn't want him in and another half is either on the edge or rapidly changing its mind) that while kinda clear can't be acted upon because we took a shot at the king, missed, and the whole suspect process is disrespected if we just act on something shortly after it survived a full suspect test.
What else am i missing? Gliscor being too good? we all aknowledging that iron valiant is kinda of a ubers pokemon just here in OU because we have stuff that is even more uber-like?
Is this the part where I bring up another past Pokemon comparison for Gholdengo in the form of my not-thinnly-veiled Aegislash allusion in my last post?
I think it was a much easier argument to make with people that Aegislash was not a broken Pokemon the way we see things like Baxcalibur this Gen, but rather was a heavily centralizing and influential presence for a singular mon in the entirety of the OU tier: Aegislash was versatile and splashable enough to fit onto virtually every team effectively (the only single-mon cases I'm otherwise aware of in that league are Gen 2 Snorlax and certain Ubers like Primal Groudon), and consequently Aegislash dictated how a LOT of Pokemon had to play: Anything that it resisted or immuned (which was 12 out of the 18 types) could not make worthwhile progress against it compared to what it could do with the turn, so several Pokemon had to run moves or coverage options that were pretty redundant or low value on them to avoid being stopped by every Aegislash set: Gardevoir would run Shadow Ball, things like Mega Pinsir and Heracross ran Earthquake over Close Combat (which hit several of the same targets otherwise with more power), and this is assuming you even had a move like that and wouldn't be forced down in usage to avoid giving an Aegislash food like Breloom with Spore used up (or Aegis behind a Sub). A single Pokemon heavily impacting the viability of dozens of Pokemon (whether pushing them out or forcing compromise on their movesets) or even entire types is a strong case for overcentralization in that even if it's not 6-0'ing teams or shutting down playstyles, it stifles the majority of options such that experimentation was not worth it unless you could deal with the most common dude.
Before this gets strawmanned like some of the Corviknight arguments, I am NOT foolish enough to think Gholdengo exerts this level of control and pressure on OU. That said, I do think there is a comparison to be made that Gholdengo is not a singularly broken Pokemon persay, but it IS very much the central Cog in a playstyle that is a clear cornerstone of how OU is played or reacted to by opposing teams right now. We gained a lot of good Spikers while losing a lot of Removers this gen, but Gholdengo exacerbates another part of that issue, in that it makes Hazard removal for those remaining SIGNIFICANTLY less reliable, as even if Gholdengo is sacced, it prevents the removal if it comes onto the field unfainted and the free switch to exploit the remover's presence is momentum gained. Suicide leads lost ground for a few Generations because Defog and improved Spinners like Excadrill meant Hazards could be removed before they made enough progress to be worth losing a slot, meaning hazard setters would more often be tanks or non-sacced Offensive threats who could stick around in case they needed to put them back up while threatening some removers, but not being able to stop them all. Something like Samurott-H's Ceaseless Edge is very powerful this Gen, but I am hard pressed to believe this would be an A+ mon in a Generation where those Spikes might not last past 5-10 turns after they're set, compared to here where he can poke your side 3 times, die, and still put in more work than half the attackers with those Spikes not going away.
And I'm going to say this: the small number of hazard removers is not an argument relevant to if Gholdengo is suspect worthy, especially since Gholdengo restricting 2 Defoggers is a BIGGER impact on an OU with 3 other removers instead of 15 other removal options by proportion. This is also to bring up that while Hazards are the easiest case to point to, Gholdengo's a Pokemon with extremely limited response options in how binary it is: You can't do reliable passive damage to this thing beyond spike stacking yourself due to Good as Gold and his typing tanking 2/3 of the type chart, both passive damage Status effects (granted Steel blocks Poison regardless), immunity to Sand, Resistance to Stealth Rock, and access to Recover to exploit anything that doesn't 2-shot him. Garganacl gets similar criticism thanks to Purifying Salt but at least has the argument that it's not as immediately threatening back while having massive differences in longevity depending on if it Teras vs having arguably the best defensive typing in OU (and this isn't even me saying Garg is a healthy or fun presence either). If you don't have consistent neutral/SE offense for the 6 types Gholdengo is neutral-or-worse to, you will not break this thing before the NP set eats your team or it's danced around/on top of your defensive cores with its partners like Iron Valiant. Hazard stack goes well with Offense, and guess what the best way to protect those Hazards is: Gholdengo, a Pokemon that also shits on 90% of the Pokemon that aren't "I hit things and things die" by design.
Personal addendum: Pursuit would have also fixed this because then the Stinky Cheese Man can't run away from a bad Double Switch or being pivoted on and this is as much a stupid decision of Gamefreak's as the Hazard-relevant-move distribution is.
So basically the current vibes are:
Nobody wants firepon in this meta because it's just physical chi-yu and we already had a full season of memes about stuff hitting in sun with tera fire and getting OHKOs on tanks
A lot of ppl don't like Gholdie because he is just hard to deal with and makes hazards very unapproachable
And then there's like the kingambit stuff (we know about of the half of the playerbase really doesn't want him in and another half is either on the edge or rapidly changing its mind) that while kinda clear can't be acted upon because we took a shot at the king, missed, and the whole suspect process is disrespected if we just act on something shortly after it survived a full suspect test.
What else am i missing? Gliscor being too good? we all aknowledging that iron valiant is kinda of a ubers pokemon just here in OU because we have stuff that is even more uber-like?
There's also arguing about whether Darkrai should be allowed into OU (absolutely not, imo, but smart people have argued otherwise).
To iterate, I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned it, but Darkrai gets Trick, which is something that allows Choice sets to ruin many of Darkrai's best answers. Blissey, Clodsire, and Toxapex are all ruined by being tricked a Choice Item, and Kingambit also loathes being Choice locked. Even if Darkrai can't answer everything in one set, it has ways around most of its answers, and this is one of them.
