Thankfully the one thing we do know about the 19th tera type is that it's not super effective against every other type as evidenced by tera blast being neutral against dragonite in the trailer
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Wouldn't surprise me if it makes you neutral to every type and Tera Blast neutral to everything
The theory I've seen is that it's STAB on everything.
Which....is not much better, TBH.
I think that got debunked as well but i don't remember why and how, it's in a thread in the Orange Islands subforum but I've been unable to find it
I honestly don't think it would raise the power level of Tera that much, but the additional level of variance would probably force Tera preview as a solution
With Ursaluna-Bloodmoon getting banned, the dlc metagame is taking a step in the right direction but definitely still has a ways to go. Chances are another suspect test won't occur so quickly, but of all the remaining mons on the radar, not all of them would carry the same "weight" as others; some particular mons have more influence on the meta. This post will focus on one mon on the radar in particular that i think should be addressed before anything else: Gholdengo. This was written on mobile so i apologize if there's any mistakes i missed.
I normally play lower tiers, but I've been playing OU a bit more since the dlc and I'm genuinely shocked at how archaic the ou metagame feels. This is generation 9 bro, but as it stands ou is basically a modern day DPP metagame where yall pretend the only hazard removal available is just Rapid Spin and Cinderace as a bonus, which doesn't actually remove hazards for the record. Somehow, Gholdengo despite being just 1 mon in the metagame, has invalidated the existence of Defog even within games where it itself is not present. Even in games where it's present among Defog users, namely corviknight, the corv user (the defog user in general) is already heavily disadvantaged in the matchup to where they can't even afford to actually try and Defog for the cost of getting heavily punished for it just with how potent Gholdengo as a mon is.
i can understand that many like Gholdengo for being a cool mon and all, but as it exists this mon should honestly not be allowed in any singles metagame. This mon seems to ruin any singles meta that it's allowed in. Even National Dex despite being a different meta, one with literally every tool available as far as hazard control goes at that, even considers gholdengo problematic. Yall have somehow gaslit yourselves into thinking this mon could ever be a healthy presence in a singles metagame to where some even blame hazard setters or hazards themselves as a root issue over the mon that literally invalidates an entire removal method.
Banning the setters doesn't actually address the issue of near-nonexist hazard control in OU. Banning Spikes would probably end up being a regretable decision when the ability to make real progress in any given match becomes even more difficult in a comparable fashion that exists within SS OU. Think about the progression of hazards throughout the gens up until now. Hazards only seem to get better every generation. At this point in time since generation 6 Defog has become such a fundamental part of any singles meta. Recent generations have had a limited dex, severely limiting removal options as well. The quality of any metagame that can actually utilize Defog is fundamentally in a better place than whatever current SV OU is. In contrast, any meta without Defog is significantly worse. Do yall ever think about just how much some of the old gens with hazards wish they had a functional Defog? We have access to such an amazing form of hazard control that was not dexited, despite being a healthy and competitive aspect of older gens, yet the playerbase seems to treat it as if it was all because of Gholdengo's influence. All it took was 1 mon to create this learned helplessness mentality where apparently there's nothing the playerbase can do to counteract the growing potency of hazards, despite the fact that the tools conducive to a competitive and healthy metagame DO exist.
"Winning the hazard war" is a very skillful aspect of this game and has been such a key component to past generations. Previous generations are proof that despite how powerful hazards are, hazard management is still possible and also plays a vital role in a healthy meta. The existence of Gholdengo removes the competitive nature of the hazard war amongst players. This mon brainlessly rewards hazards in any meta it's in; once they're up, they are staying there more often than not simply because the playerbase has unspokenly agreed that it truly isn't worth running defoggers with how badly they can lose to this mon, and Rapid Spin isn't all that difficult to prevent either (something this mon can prevent as well). There's nothing competitive about the hazard war in SV OU, not up until now, and there won't ever be even in the future as long as gholdengo is allowed. Ever since Defog started clearing hazards, it's been a mainstay in any meta that allows it and the same will be true of future metas so long as the hazard dynamic stays consistent; we as a playerbase should want to preserve Defog and not act like cavemen when we have the option not to be.
You would think that not only as hazards and the power level get stronger the emphasis on proper removal existing, especially in generations where there isn't that many options already, would be a good thing to strive for in terms of a balanced metagame goes. If Gholdengo's ability were ever nerfed to allow Defog, a different discussion could be had, but as it is at the moment, this mon should not exist in singles metagames that genuinely aim to be competitive and balanced. Gholdengo should realistically be quickbanned but it's unlikely at this point, so if a suspect test for this mon ever occurs, it should be banned for the duration of the test so that we fully experience what the metagame without a mon with such an unmatched caliber of influence would be like.
While it could be argued that other mons on the radar are much more potent than this mon, Gholdengo itself is easily the most weighted on the list, and because of how drastically the lack of its presence would be compared to every other mon, this should be what is looked at next to see how the meta would change. Perhaps the metagame then could even allow for some of the other radar mons to end up less controversial than they currently are.
I normally play lower tiers, but I've been playing OU a bit more since the dlc and I'm genuinely shocked at how archaic the ou metagame feels. This is generation 9 bro, but as it stands ou is basically a modern day DPP metagame where yall pretend the only hazard removal available is just Rapid Spin and Cinderace as a bonus, which doesn't actually remove hazards for the record. Somehow, Gholdengo despite being just 1 mon in the metagame, has invalidated the existence of Defog even within games where it itself is not present. Even in games where it's present among Defog users, namely corviknight, the corv user (the defog user in general) is already heavily disadvantaged in the matchup to where they can't even afford to actually try and Defog for the cost of getting heavily punished for it just with how potent Gholdengo as a mon is.
i can understand that many like Gholdengo for being a cool mon and all, but as it exists this mon should honestly not be allowed in any singles metagame. This mon seems to ruin any singles meta that it's allowed in. Even National Dex despite being a different meta, one with literally every tool available as far as hazard control goes at that, even considers gholdengo problematic. Yall have somehow gaslit yourselves into thinking this mon could ever be a healthy presence in a singles metagame to where some even blame hazard setters or hazards themselves as a root issue over the mon that literally invalidates an entire removal method.
Banning the setters doesn't actually address the issue of near-nonexist hazard control in OU. Banning Spikes would probably end up being a regretable decision when the ability to make real progress in any given match becomes even more difficult in a comparable fashion that exists within SS OU. Think about the progression of hazards throughout the gens up until now. Hazards only seem to get better every generation. At this point in time since generation 6 Defog has become such a fundamental part of any singles meta. Recent generations have had a limited dex, severely limiting removal options as well. The quality of any metagame that can actually utilize Defog is fundamentally in a better place than whatever current SV OU is. In contrast, any meta without Defog is significantly worse. Do yall ever think about just how much some of the old gens with hazards wish they had a functional Defog? We have access to such an amazing form of hazard control that was not dexited, despite being a healthy and competitive aspect of older gens, yet the playerbase seems to treat it as if it was all because of Gholdengo's influence. All it took was 1 mon to create this learned helplessness mentality where apparently there's nothing the playerbase can do to counteract the growing potency of hazards, despite the fact that the tools conducive to a competitive and healthy metagame DO exist.
"Winning the hazard war" is a very skillful aspect of this game and has been such a key component to past generations. Previous generations are proof that despite how powerful hazards are, hazard management is still possible and also plays a vital role in a healthy meta. The existence of Gholdengo removes the competitive nature of the hazard war amongst players. This mon brainlessly rewards hazards in any meta it's in; once they're up, they are staying there more often than not simply because the playerbase has unspokenly agreed that it truly isn't worth running defoggers with how badly they can lose to this mon, and Rapid Spin isn't all that difficult to prevent either (something this mon can prevent as well). There's nothing competitive about the hazard war in SV OU, not up until now, and there won't ever be even in the future as long as gholdengo is allowed. Ever since Defog started clearing hazards, it's been a mainstay in any meta that allows it and the same will be true of future metas so long as the hazard dynamic stays consistent; we as a playerbase should want to preserve Defog and not act like cavemen when we have the option not to be.
You would think that not only as hazards and the power level get stronger the emphasis on proper removal existing, especially in generations where there isn't that many options already, would be a good thing to strive for in terms of a balanced metagame goes. If Gholdengo's ability were ever nerfed to allow Defog, a different discussion could be had, but as it is at the moment, this mon should not exist in singles metagames that genuinely aim to be competitive and balanced. Gholdengo should realistically be quickbanned but it's unlikely at this point, so if a suspect test for this mon ever occurs, it should be banned for the duration of the test so that we fully experience what the metagame without a mon with such an unmatched caliber of influence would be like.
While it could be argued that other mons on the radar are much more potent than this mon, Gholdengo itself is easily the most weighted on the list, and because of how drastically the lack of its presence would be compared to every other mon, this should be what is looked at next to see how the meta would change. Perhaps the metagame then could even allow for some of the other radar mons to end up less controversial than they currently are.
Imo the Ogerpon forms are generally well-balanced, obviously Hearthflame is a bit overtuned (hence why it's banned) but largely, they're all pretty good not egregious.
I understand and even mostly agree with arguments about Gholdengo needing to be suspected, but I think that it's simply one of multiple factors that lead to hazard stacking being as oppressive as it is right now. We've had it from the beginning of the gen, but nobody can deny that hazards got significantly harder to deal with as both Hisuian Samurott and then Gliscor were added--other factors changed with them, but they are certainly part of the equation. Defog being removed as a TM also means that mons who could've threatened Gholdengo whilst being able to defog (Moltres, Zapdos, etc) can't. It does hamper the usage of both Corviknight and Mandibuzz (very funny that it can't consistently beat Gholdengo) but I wouldn't say that its existence is the sole reason hazards are as good as they are--it's a combination of factors, which is why it has skirted on the edges of tiering radars and surveys for so long.
Given how complex the issue is, waiting until DLC2 to suspect it makes the most sense for me. Even barring defog potentially being added back as a TM, attempting to disentangle and isolate the most problematic part of this situation will likely take some trial and error, and I think it'll be easier to have a longer-term plan once we know exactly how the meta has changed with DLC2. I think a Gliscor suspect is a better short-term plan, as it both accentuates the hazard issue to a large degree while also being a surprisingly centralizing force with it having toxic, knock off, and a multitude of viable sets. I also feel like another Kingambit suspect would be appropriate before Gholdengo, because it's still exactly as dumb as it was before and should preferably get the boot sooner rather than later.
Given how complex the issue is, waiting until DLC2 to suspect it makes the most sense for me. Even barring defog potentially being added back as a TM, attempting to disentangle and isolate the most problematic part of this situation will likely take some trial and error, and I think it'll be easier to have a longer-term plan once we know exactly how the meta has changed with DLC2. I think a Gliscor suspect is a better short-term plan, as it both accentuates the hazard issue to a large degree while also being a surprisingly centralizing force with it having toxic, knock off, and a multitude of viable sets. I also feel like another Kingambit suspect would be appropriate before Gholdengo, because it's still exactly as dumb as it was before and should preferably get the boot sooner rather than later.
you forgot all the slurs and hate speech and "gross" (sometimes outright illegal) art posted there
because 4chan isn't just "cringe posting", it's mostly terrible people, and Smogon Forums had to evolve past that internet culture to be as active as it is in 2023, and not die. Never forget that.
Just DLC talk as usual. It’s confirmed to be coming in Indigo Disk, so people are speculating as to how much of a difference Revival Blessing makes to its support movepool, (and to a lesser extent what Population Bomb does for it).
Smeargle had been datamined and we about to see some wack shit
Just a small correction:
Smeargle was in the ”All starters are here!” trailer from before the dex was datamined
This actually reminds me, Serperior isn't the only old-gen starter coming back with OU viability. What is everyone's opinion on Blaziken with the new potential of Tera? I feel the mechanic addresses both of it's main flaws holding it back from last gen, which are difficulty in set-up and lack of instantaneous power
since everyone else is discussing what order things should be suspected in, i'm gonna throw in my two cents:
- waterpon. this thing has enough coverage to beat any of its supposedly-consistent answers—zen headbutt for amogus, play rough for dragons, superpower for… other shit i guess, and even sd + trailblaze to deal with its faster offensive checks. i haven't found anything that waterpon doesn't have a set to at least trade with. most of the things i lost waterpon to during my reqs run were losing speed ties to opposing waterpon and me playing like dogshit
- manaphy. the recent discovery of the double dance acid armor + take heart set makes manaphy even harder to predict and deal with, and if the waterpon suspect is successful it will have lost one of its best offensive and defensive answers
- gliscor. after waterpon and manaphy are gone, gliscor will go from bonkers to bullshit. it's already warping the meta in an unhealthy way. the previous two suspects should be enough time to drop lando-t into uu so i feel safe suspecting gliscor at this point
- kingambit. this stupid thing keeps dodging bullets like fucking neo. get it the hell out of my tier and never let it back in
- iron valiant. i've made my thoughts on valiant clear—it's impossible to predict and consistently answer, like waterpon but marginally less nonsense
- probably hamurott but we're not gonna have time for 6 suspects lol, this meta is unbalanceable before dlc2 drops unless the council takes extreme unilateral action
luckie
unluckiest player
Wasn't another issue it's pretty middling speed? Not to mention, if you go Adamant to get that extra power, you're still slower than Dragapult (EDIT: at +1 of course).
(Also, idk if this was just a me thing, but I really don't like relying on Flare Blitz, especially in a meta with potent Close Combat resists like Zapdos, and especially Gliscor.)
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Yeah true, worse than Dragapult is that even Jolly at +2 Speed it is still slower than boosted Iron Valiant
you're right, self-damaging things in general are not great in a hazard-heavy, offensive meta, which is why we're seeing a lot fewer life orbs in higher-level play these days. i think wish support from alomomomomola helps a lot with this, but not on blaziken, which doesn't like switching out after setting up
I completely agree with all of this
As you could see my account was created almost to the end of August, since my competitive Pokémon phase returned, and even if I just watch videos about it and not actively play, when I created the account I had fears that I could say something of wrong here or being looked in a way since I didn't know competitive with also being new, but instead even if I don't talk too much and this is the only thread I talk asides the Tera suspect one when was on, I feel like in a big family here
How does delaying tiering action until a whole new release, when new releases typically allow for bans to be reassessed anyway, because of unsubstantiated speculation that we MIGHT get a new TM, make ANY sense, AT ALL?
Am I the only one who just thinks we should suspect potentially broken things, rather than being a weird ban accelarationist who pushes for tiering action on random mons to play a weird 5d chess to create the most ideal possible situation for a particular Pokémon to be banned? "If you want Gliscor [suspected] you should strategically support a waterpon and Manaphy ban" well what if I think Gliscor might be broken but don't see them as an issue?
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i agree, we shouldn't let tiering action be dictated by theories that something might happen at an unspecified future date. theoretically, dlc2 could introduce 20 new viable firepon hard-counters, but that's no excuse to keep firepon in the tier because that might happen
Okay but can we talk about how good Scizor is a defog user? it's really good at switching in, uses u-turn very well, can be both bulky and hit hard since it doesn't need speed to be good, as bullet punch is its main offense, and Scizor is cool. I know it's UU but i think it could have potential as a defoger.
Number 6 would be Gholdengo over Hamurott. The stupid string cheese is the main cause of hazard stack due to making it so much more difficult to remove. Remove the string cheese and suddenly it will be easier to remove hazards which will limit hazard stack.
It could be a decent defogger if the stupid string cheese man wasn't around blocking defog.
it really won't be that much easier. there are just not enough viable defoggers, especially now that we have another form of defog punishing in empoleon, and too many viable setters, especially the cheap-as-shit ones who can effectively guarantee themselves three layers of spikes by simply existing (gliscor and hamurott). we should look into banning the two most overbearing setters first and then, if that doesn't solve the problem, we can talk about gholdengo
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