Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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tommytt22 said:
Half the people on this forum changing their opinions anytime finchinator makes a post:
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As someone who isn't like the rest of the group (I have autism), I unfortunately cannot relate to this. But it is funny how the popular people's opinions affect the more casual repliers in life.

In VGC, this is called a "player diff". With one person in particular (Wolfe Glick, 2016 VGC World Champion), that is considered the "world champ difference". Maybe someday people will just be original for once smh
 
yNot Mence said:
Care to explain why (maybe you already did 100 times in some previous posts, but I didn't get the chance to read them)? I disagree with both you and Finch in this regard, since I'm actually leaning more towards the "ban Dengo" side. In my opinion hazards have always been a problem in this meta, and even without Gliscor we still have plenty of hazard setters that can abuse the presence of Gholdengo, like Samurott-H, Glimmora, Ting-Lu and all of the other Sash leads (Treads, Ribombee etc.). I agree that Gliscor is stupidly broken and annoying, but I think it's so prevalent because of Gholdengo, not the opposite. People have been calling out Gholdengo since day 1, and if it wasn't for its ability (but also for some other reasons, like its typing and its versatility during teambuilding) we'd be seeing plenty more mons that can remove hazards, Corviknight primarily. Speaking of the latter, Corvi would also be an amazing answer to Gliscor with the Iron Defense or Bulk Up sets, and it could be one more check to Kingambit in this meta. So I'd propose to ban Gholdengo first, and then we see if hazards are still a problem.
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i've seen too many matches where half of the game is taken up by a gliscor mirror match to believe anything besides gliscor deserves to go first. no other spiker has warped the tier so profoundly. it's so good at its job that it's not even leaving room for other spikers anymore, even the good ones—ting-lu is an a tier mon according to the vr and it's at risk of dropping to uu because gliscor is that much better than it. it would outclass deoxys-defense as a spiker if deoxys-defense were still around. this gen has had better spikes setters than any gen before it by a landslide, and gliscor is a world apart from those. and gholdengo has existed this whole time without the tier being warped like this, so it's clearly gliscor that's been pushing half of ou into uu. that is why gliscor needs to go, independently from and before gholdengo
 
^Everyone hates Gliscor and Gholdengo and is anxious to see them gone. Many people started to believe that giving them both a 4~5 on the survey would bring the dream situation of both getting quickbanned.
But some people want to strongly argue that one is more problematic than the other one. This includes Finch, who stated he'd give Gliscor a 5 on the survey, but only Ghold a 3.
Also, petty quarrels ensue cause we have some dead time between this ban and the next survey.

Don't think I missed anything important.
 
Firer4 said:
Clefable to set up your Rocks and provide utitlity via a mix of sticky barbs, knock off, trick or encore. A ghost switch in. A moth / fairy switch in (if thats not already covered by your ghost switch in). Pult is pretty common (usually wisp set) as it provides speed control, makes great use of hazards, can check Waterpon and helps in those late game scenarios vs gambit. Then you just slap boots on everything but Clef and Gliscor and get to stacking.
Dengo isnt actually a necessary element of these teams since most people have given up trying to defog anyways and u can just wear their tusk down over time (dengo doesnt love switching into tusk anyway). Youre often playing the long game with these teams but it depends on how offensive youre building them.

You can watch this SCL game to get a feeling for team structures and general gameplay. Personally I didn't love the team carkoala brought to the table here cause it doesn't commit to the gameplan of just getting hazards stacked on both sides. Heatran bears a huge burden in countering a lot of special attackers while also being very prone to being worn down if hazards are up especially when having to switch into Ghosts so while Rilla helps with that you are still required to spin. But offensive booster energy tusk isnt gonna spin more than once per game and your team isnt fast enough for that to be sufficient since the game slows down whenever gliscor or clefable enter the field and the opponents Gliscor gets a layer of spike up whenever u send the former out. I feel like if you run a structure like that you at the very least need ice fang on your gliscor or at least uturn and something that can immediately threathen Gliscor.
Maybe I'm just trying to force carkoalas team in a category it doesnt want to be in in the first place but I figured by illustrating my thoughts on how to approach a game on an example you'll maybe getter a better feel how to build a hazard stack team.
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Thanks a lot mate, your info helps me a lot to understand hazards stack team.
 
Ehmcee said:
This was an option on the Tera suspect and was seen as widely unpopular, behind Tera Preview and a full Tera Ban
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I know this was talked about but I wanted to bring the discussion back again on 1 possible Tera mon. Personally, my views on tera were completely different 8 months ago than they are now and I figured I'm not the only one. I feel like there would be more support for a tera restriction than an outright tera ban. Tera is still relatively popular so I think if we have the debate of ban/no ban itll just stay the same still. Restriction seems like the happy middle ground so I figured we could spend some time discussing the best form of that now that we have an additional 8 months of tera experience
 
Well, I am pro-Ban on Tera, but I still believe that Tera Preview would actually make the meta worse and reduce skill expression. I would be okay with banning Tera Blast to prevent any sweeping threat from sniping any Pokemon they want as it will significantly reduce the unpredictability of the mechanic and prevent things such as Kingambit smashing Great Tusk or Zamazenta with Tera Blast Fairy or Volcarona or Iron Moth smashing Toxapex with Tera Blast Ground.
 
The only partial restriction with even a scrap of support from top players is a Tera Blast ban.

Tera Captain makes games more swingy and largely denies the mechanic's value to defensive teams, without fixing any existing challenges. It's worse than both a full ban and no restrictions.
 
tommytt22 said:
idea submission: only pokemon from the tier below can terastilize. this would in turn raise the usage of lower tier pokemon and cycle the tiers, creating complete instability for the remainder of gen 9. honestly it feels on brand with how things have unfolded so far.
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can someone submit this as an om already because i really want to play this in a way that doesn't affect tiering. like, i genuinely think that would be engaging enough to work as an om, and it'd make a lot of the tera haters happy as well as the people who are fans of tera on lower-tier mons
 
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Alternator said:
Tera Captain makes games more swingy and largely denies the mechanic's value to defensive teams, without fixing any existing challenges. It's worse than both a full ban and no restrictions.
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Yeah, the reason Tera doesn't favor offense overwhelmingly (and even favors defense) is both because it doesn't require an item and because any Pokemon can Tera. Without the defensive benefits of Tera it removes what makes Tera free up the builder when making something defensive and makes Tera more akin to z-moves, just a brainless power boost with little to no defensive uses at all.
 
tommytt22 said:
only pokemon from the tier below can terastilize
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the tier where a pokemon is doesn't mean he can use a mechanic that is busted; few examples:

frosmoth (nubl) with veil + buff of snow + tera is at the same level of ou pokemons like dnite
mola (uu) can use tera, lando can't... but mola is 10 more times more viable than lando currently

be realistic and read the policy framework https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tiering-policy-framework.3628026/ this is a huge complex ban
 
15terms said:
Yeah, the reason Tera doesn't favor offense overwhelmingly (and even favors defense) is both because it doesn't require an item and because any Pokemon can Tera. Without the defensive benefits of Tera it removes what makes Tera free up the builder when making something defensive and makes Tera more akin to z-moves, just a brainless power boost with little to no defensive uses at all.
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I dont agree honestly what i would expect to see if we had Tera Captains instantly in OU would be a lot of people running Kingambit as their tera captain. And in many kingambit cases its tera-ing PURELY for a defensive use in order to suddenly resist or be immune to the many threatening moves that can come its way. Youre seeming to imply the only thing we'll see is things spamming Tera Blast or Stab Teras when i dont even think either is the best use of tera.
 
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finch sounds like he's about to sell me a car
 
:Gliscor: 5/5, this Pokemon is very annoying as it forces very specific measures to cover while still oftentimes forcing progress due to Spike, Knock, or status. This is not even mentioning how effective SD and pivoting sets can be or how few things regularly swap into Gliscor despite it living very long thanks to Poison Heal + Protect.

:Gholdengo: 4/5, this Pokemon warps the metagame in more ways than are readily apparent within the battle. It dictates the Defog metagame and hazard status to a great extent, impacting how we build and play alike. On top of this, NP Gholdengo is one of the best presences in the tier standalone as it provides a potent threat while being reasonably bulky and even checking some things with its elite typing. Counterplay exists and I think a longer discussion is seriously needed before any ban would occur, but I do think Gholdengo is approaching scary territory.

:Manaphy: 4/5, it is very limiting, but still quite beatable. Double Dance sets have been addressed more with specific Unaware users, Encore, and overwhelming pressure. TG + 3A sets are more easy to RK and perhaps coverage dependent in their own right. But the overlap in counterplay is not great and there is a bit of a guesswork component to it, making building preparation for Manaphy not always easy.

:Kingambit: 3/5, it feels slightly broken like it has for a while and Tera can make it crazy later in games, but I am not sold on it being fully broken or close to a priority right now admiteddly.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: 3/5, it is very good and has only so many checks/counters, but I do feel it is less limiting than those mentioned above. Maybe that is not the best spot to be in for the metagame, but I think Ogerpon is very playable and deserves some more time despite eventually warranting a suspect.

:Sneasler: 3/5, this Pokemon is dumb cheese. I hate it. Would not mind it going.

Tera Blast: 4/5, I feel a suspect on this is deserved at some point. I am not sure if now is most appropriate or how the playerbase feels, but I am glad this is included.
 
What mons even run tera blast that make it broken. I feel like this is by far the smallest concern and the only things I see using it are thund t, dnite, and physical pult(not broken with it), kingambit(broken but for other reasons), and weird gimmick mons like poltagheist.
 
Finchinator said:
Tera Blast: 4/5, I feel a suspect on this is deserved at some point. I am not sure if now is most appropriate or how the playerbase feels, but I am glad this is included.
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At this point it feels like we’re getting closer and closer to an outright Tera ban anyways. What’s the point of not going cold turkey with Tera yet?
 
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