Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Gouging Fire is banned]

[pika pal]

Tusk certainly has more competition for its role as a Bulky Utility/Glue Ground, but I wouldn't say it necessarily got worse into the Meta, which would be what I personally base a potential drop around. Teams ignoring Hazards can eschew Tusk, but then they have either concerns about stacking Weaknesses like Ice (Gliscor, Lando) or REALLY needing to lean on Knock Off Absorbers to preserve Boots/Leftovers. Besides Spinning, Tusk can be things like the Knock Off user, Wallbreaker, Defensive check, or a Win Condition with BU, and the team doesn't strictly give away what role(s) it plays on a team.

We see how rapidly the Meta adapts to things like Gouging Fire over the course of a Suspect, or the short period between Archaludon's low survey and high Rain Winrate, so even if Superman teams caused Tusk to drop, I would be confident adaptions to said teams would cause teams wanting Hazard control to catch up and raise Tusk right back up. Balance teams like the one Finch shared have multiple members afraid of its STABs and/or Knock Off removing their items (Zamazenta and Dragapult survives without Boots even if burning), I think you'd be hard pressed to find a match in which a team uses Tusk and it doesn't have work to put in with whatever set it pulls out of the Toolbox, which is at least what I personally attribute the S-Rank to: Pokemon who excel in one or more roles, and typically lack for flaws that make them replaceable on a team without major rework ripples due to how they play. Even if Lando-T competes with Tusk on several roles, Tusk is still competent and distinct enough in them that slotting Lando in does not guarantee the team remains equal or better as a single change

 

[UnusualBoy]

I love how Dragapult had a rocky start when the gen started with all your those broken things running around but slowly but surely got back to be one of the best mons in the tier, I mean top 3 usage last month and all that with a pletora of dragons & dark types in the tier.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Considering that volcarona had only 14.69% usage last month, I doubt if she is going to get the banhammer.

Not like I would mind if she did.

I wonder which is the least used pokemon to ever be banned from any generation or format ever.

 

[Moyashi]

Considering that volcarona had only 14.69% usage last month, I doubt if she is going to get the banhammer.

Not like I would mind if she did.

I wonder which is the least used pokemon to ever be banned from any generation or format ever.

That's not how bans work at all. Usage does not dictate whether something is viewed as broken or banworthy.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Considering that volcarona had only 14.69% usage last month, I doubt if she is going to get the banhammer.
Not like I would mind if she did.
I wonder which is the least used pokemon to ever be banned from any generation or format ever.

Idk what usage stats you're looking at but Volc had 15.9% usage last month. It also doesn't matter because Arch got banned with 9.203% in February and 11.578% in January.

 

[lucky333]

I say Tusk falling off a bit is actually a good sign for this meta. It is still a great mon now but there was a time where Tusk was almost mandatory to have on the team. The anti hazard mon HAD to deal not only with hazards but with dengo as well in order not to get overwhelmed. It was also the blanket Gambit check and if you didn't have atleast two of those, your team would almost certainly have a hard time. Role compression was more important then ever and it wasn't enough for your mon to have simply one role because you had to cover so many things which is why it was really hard to be creative.

Overtime though, the meta has evolved and we have gotten more options to deal with the above stuff instead of running the same hazard removals or running HDB. Just recently, I got suspect reqs with a sun team without running any HDB or a single spinner on my team. I ran Nintales as my setter since it isn't passive as hell like Torkoal who let's any sweeper or sub user run all over your team + healing wish let's me play aggresively with my breakers.

Sun team actually struggle hard against against hazards, which is why a lot of sun team overload their team with hazard removals like tusk+hatt+tork. I simply use rocky Landorus with taunt + rocky helmet Hatt. That duo might not seem compatible at first but they cover a lot of hazard spam and punish brainless U-turn spammers. They also soften things up for suns problem children like Moon, Zama and Bolt.

In general, I have seen offensive teams or even bulky offensive teams just not have any hard hazard removals but they simply used taunt + offensive pressure to do the work for them.

Btw, I am still undecided on Volc, gonna have to give the other thread an even deeper read.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I wonder which is the least used pokemon to ever be banned from any generation or format ever.

probably wynaut. it had basically zero usage in gens 3 and 4 when it was allowed because wobbuffet directly outclassed it, but each time wobbuffet was banned, wynaut went with it

as a side note, it's pretty wild that there hasn't been something that has exclusively banned abilities in ages (and before you mention it, no, gen 8 alolan sandshrew and bdsp articuno don't count). we are so lucky that hidden abilities exist

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

Iron Valiant @ Focus Sash
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt
- Shadow Sneak

Suddenly thought of this as an attacking lead. Shuts down Glimmora with taunt and breaks a potential sash, so you can send a teammate to KO it, forces great tusk to Tera, beats hamurott and DoS leads with moonblast + shadow sneak. These are some common leads. So what do y’all think?

 

[Heatranator]

Iron Valiant @ Focus Sash
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Aura Sphere
- Taunt
- Shadow Sneak

Suddenly thought of this as an attacking lead. Shuts down Glimmora with taunt and breaks a potential sash, so you can send a teammate to KO it, forces great tusk to Tera, beats hamurott and DoS leads with moonblast + shadow sneak. These are some common leads. So what do y’all think?

I would probably swap out aura sphere for cc, as cc outdamages aura sphere. Other than that, idk. It looks interesting.
252 SpA Iron Valiant Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 124-147 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 162-192 (47.5 - 56.3%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[RS25802580]

I know this ain't much, but I finally made it back to 1800 for the first time since DLC2 ^_^ I took a break for finals and returned to a scary meta. Dinosaur sun and bridge rain took a dump all over my old balance teams. Glad to make it back to where I was before the Indigo Disc with my favorite balance squad (plus a few improvements).

So it ain't much, but it's honest work. Dropping my balance team here in case anyone is interested :)

https://pokepast.es/a7701671f81cf64f

 

[Heatranator]

In about a week, SV is going to have its first month without a tier shift due to going back to the three month tier shifts, which will allow the lower tier metagames to stabilise more, though I will miss the excitment that happens every month predicting the tier shifts.
So, in the spirit of the monthly question of what people would think would rise and drop, what do you wish would rise up to OU or fall down to UU if we still had montly shifts?
I think iron crown, zapdos and scizor would be cool to rise (though i think scizor is much less likely). Iron crown is a great mon in the meta and zapdos despite its shortcomings is still pretty amazing (and would mean UU doesn't have to deal with it, which is a large bonus).
I also wish alomomola would fall (pun NOT intended), though I do think enam and treads would be more accurate. Both are just outclassed by other mons of their typing/role (enam is kinda outclassed by valiant while treads is outclassed mostly by tusk).

 

[j0nathan]

In about a week, SV is going to have its first month without a tier shift due to going back to the three month tier shifts, which will allow the lower tier metagames to stabilise more, though I will miss the excitment that happens every month predicting the tier shifts.
So, in the spirit of the monthly question of what people would think would rise and drop, what do you wish would rise up to OU or fall down to UU if we still had montly shifts?
I think iron crown, zapdos and scizor would be cool to rise (though i think scizor is much less likely). Iron crown is a great mon in the meta and zapdos despite its shortcomings is still pretty amazing (and would mean UU doesn't have to deal with it, which is a large bonus).
I also wish alomomola would fall (pun NOT intended), though I do think enam and treads would be more accurate. Both are just outclassed by other mons of their typing/role (enam is kinda outclassed by valiant while treads is outclassed mostly by tusk).

I kinda forgot that the tier shifts only happen every three months now, so thanks for reminding me.
Hawlucha rising would be pretty cool, it's a very unique Pokémon. I've used lucha a lot and yes there are certain matchups where it feels terrible but it's pretty great into ho.
Ogerpon grass is a great pivot due to encore and u-turn and the speed boost it gets with tera in combination with sd, ivy cudgel and coverage can even turn it into a solid sweeper. Defiant is also a pretty cool ability and definitely better with the increased usage of lando-t.
I dislike Serp, so I wouldn't mind if it would drop.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Wait tier shifts happen every 3 months? Since when did this happen

 

[GummyRowlets]

Wait tier shifts happen every 3 months? Since when did this happen

They don't

 

[Soiramio3000]

That's not how bans work at all. Usage does not dictate whether something is viewed as broken or banworthy.

I know that usage does not dictate that.
I was just thinking that if she was a massive threat then she would have 20+% usage.

Anyway, an other usage pointed out that archaludon had less.
(I am glad that archaludon got banned, that thing was nearly unkillable.).

 

[j0nathan]

Wait tier shifts happen every 3 months? Since when did this happen

I think that's because we're not gonna get anymore DLCs and some stability and time to ban problematic mons is needed.

From the april tier shifts thread

And now PU has gotten its big drop from DLC2, so next month we start with the regular 3-month shift schedule, which essentially means only monthly quick drops until July 1st. Enjoy some stability!
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usage-based-tier-update-for-april-2024.3740273/

 

[Vaporwavvve]

Down to like 1350 from 1800 in February. This meta is throwing me for a loop. Ogerpon is seriously tough to build for while keeping other threats in mind.

 

[cromatkastar]

Down to like 1350 from 1800 in February. This meta is throwing me for a loop. Ogerpon is seriously tough to build for while keeping other threats in mind.

Skill issue

 

[Alternator]

Down to like 1350 from 1800 in February. This meta is throwing me for a loop. Ogerpon is seriously tough to build for while keeping other threats in mind.

Maushold outspeeds Ogerpon and can OHKO with Population Bomb (needs 8 hits, so ~92% chance), which forces the Ogerpon player to think carefully about going for the SD instead of attacking immediately, and also is a very reliable way to revenge kill - just make sure you have a backup plan that can beat Trailblaze sets, because Ivy Cudgel is an OHKO if Maushold took hazard damage.

As a bonus, fast Encore makes Kingambit cry, since you can Encore the sucker punch; just make sure you have a mon that can force Kingambit to click it in the first place. The only team support Maushold needs is Knock Off to remove Rocky Helmets, so while not splashable you don't have to entirely build around the mice.

Why yes, I am a fan of low BST mons that manage to find a niche in OU, why do you ask?

 

[sims796]

I know this ain't much, but I finally made it back to 1800 for the first time since DLC2 ^_^ I took a break for finals and returned to a scary meta. Dinosaur sun and bridge rain took a dump all over my old balance teams. Glad to make it back to where I was before the Indigo Disc with my favorite balance squad (plus a few improvements).

So it ain't much, but it's honest work. Dropping my balance team here in case anyone is interested :)

https://pokepast.es/a7701671f81cf64f

Could you replace Gambit with anything else and still hold the integrity of the team?

 

[RS25802580]

Could you replace Gambit with anything else and still hold the integrity of the team?

Not likely. Gambit is needed to check Ghold, Pult, Meowscarada, and revenge kill many threats with sucker punch. And the sheer offensive power in the later game is necessary to muscle through stall.

Down to like 1350 from 1800 in February. This meta is throwing me for a loop. Ogerpon is seriously tough to build for while keeping other threats in mind.

Regarding Ogerpon, what team structure are you using? Balance has different counterplay than stall so there's no one-size-fits-all approach, but I'm happy to chip in with advice if you're interested.

 

[Heatranator]

Not likely. Gambit is needed to check Ghold, Pult, Meowscarada, and revenge kill many threats with sucker punch. And the sheer offensive power in the later game is necessary to muscle through stall.

Maybe sucker punch Darkrai? I know that sounds like a meme, but its not a bad set. Tera fighting dozo already can kinda beat the gambit set, and offensive pressure with glowking still works fine enough unless they are running protect blissey. In exchange, you get a really fast mon that can revenge kill a lot of things. It doesn't have the sheer power of gambit, but it still works well enough to kill chipped mons.
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 81-96 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 99-117 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 198-234 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
It's more of a niche set, but it does work wonders if you can position it well.

 

[sims796]

Not likely. Gambit is needed to check Ghold, Pult, Meowscarada, and revenge kill many threats with sucker punch. And the sheer offensive power in the later game is necessary to muscle through stall.

Yeah that's what I thought. That's how it was with Great Tusk with his role compression earlier on

 

[RS25802580]

Maybe sucker punch Darkrai? I know that sounds like a meme, but its not a bad set. Tera fighting dozo already can kinda beat the gambit set, and offensive pressure with glowking still works fine enough unless they are running protect blissey. In exchange, you get a really fast mon that can revenge kill a lot of things. It doesn't have the sheer power of gambit, but it still works well enough to kill chipped mons.
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 81-96 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 99-117 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 87.8% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Dragapult: 198-234 (62.4 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Darkrai Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 146-174 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
It's more of a niche set, but it does work wonders if you can position it well.

Thanks for the reply and interesting suggestion.

Unfortunately, Darkrai can't switch into mons like Ghold, Pult, and Meow multiple times throughout the match so the team will start to fall apart defensively.

One mon I forgot to mention is Rillaboom, my Gambit is EV'd to always live two banded Wood Hammers. This is crucial in situations when you don't want to tera Dozo.

Alongside Waterpon, Boots Gambit (great item on this mon btw) is the main future sight abuser. Non-tera dark Dozo, Zama, and Tusk get shredded by future sight so there is great synergy with Gambit. The team needs two future sight abusers since Waterpon is vulnerable to hazard chip, so it often can't last the whole match against stall or position correctly if you have to keep removal in mind.

Together, Waterpon and Gambit + Future Sight cover the stall matchup really well. Stall Dozo and Mola needs tera Grass/Dragon to beat Waterpon and Tera Dark (more common than Fighting) to beat Gambit so they'll lose to either one or the other.

When I made the team, I was aiming at making a balance team that matches up well against stall, which is notoriously a difficult matchup for balance. I credit this to getting me through the "treacherous 1700s" where stall seems to be rather common.

Regardless, that Darkrai set sounds fun and I'd welcome you to try it out on this team. If you do, let me know how it goes!

Tagging sims796 because they were also curious about this team.

 

[658Greninja]

Maushold outspeeds Ogerpon and can OHKO with Population Bomb (needs 8 hits, so ~92% chance), which forces the Ogerpon player to think carefully about going for the SD instead of attacking immediately, and also is a very reliable way to revenge kill - just make sure you have a backup plan that can beat Trailblaze sets, because Ivy Cudgel is an OHKO if Maushold took hazard damage.

As a bonus, fast Encore makes Kingambit cry, since you can Encore the sucker punch; just make sure you have a mon that can force Kingambit to click it in the first place. The only team support Maushold needs is Knock Off to remove Rocky Helmets, so while not splashable you don't have to entirely build around the mice.

Why yes, I am a fan of low BST mons that manage to find a niche in OU, why do you ask?

As someone who enjoys finding niches to non-OU mons, the Maus is not doing so hot rn. Not just the usage of Helmet Lando, but also the multitude of Tera Ghosts due to Ironpress Zama and Dnite’s popularity. For offensive hazard control, Cinderace, Treads, and Tusk are better options. Encore is nice, but I feel like Valiant or Wogre are better suited for that due to better typings/bulk.