Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Tera poison into AV Primarina is quite the good balance breaker that shits on a lot of frailer special attackers if you play your tera on it, especially Darkrai which has no realistic answer against tera poison AV Primarina unless it runs a psychic move which it probably won't do
Darkrai has access to Psyshock allowing to bypass Primarina's Assault Vest, however it has 56.3% chance to OHKO if Darkrai isn't running Modest nature which it OHKOes Tera Poison Primarina.
Tera Psychic allows Darkrai to always OHKO Tera Poison Primarina with Psyshock.
If Darkrai decides to run a physical set to counter Primarina, a Life Orb boosted Ground type Tera Blast OHKOes it when Primarina is Teralized to Poison / Steel. Also Primarina loses its Dark type resist when it teralizes, it gets OHKOed by a +2 Life Orb Knock Off.
252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Darkrai Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Primarina: 338-400 (105.2 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Darkrai Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Tera Poison Primarina: 411-485 (128 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's base 90 Attack is decent to not get walled by Special walls such as Blissey and Clodsire and remove their items with Knock Off, it can also catch off guard faster opponents with Sucker Punch. Even Darkrai learns Swords Dance as well.
Speaking of physical Darkrai, I remember someone posted a really funny SD Darkrai set along with some other goofy stuff like Infestation Pult and a Dragonite larping as Breaking Swipe Gouge. I have most of the sets in a Showdown box, but can anyone bring up the original post?
Cloak does "answer" Garg, but it's a mediocre item otherwise which is a fact that hasn't changed honestly. It also is not an item you can just throw on a mon because it has such a major opportunity cost, and there are many many better items to be running right now. Something like Ghold can run it without much drawback (though still losing to classic Curse+EQ garg) but most mons have a hard time with it because knock off is so prevalent and finding a mon that can run Cloak, not be a common knock target AND not be bothered by losing out on other items is really hard.
Recently, I had a lot of success with it on Primarina. It's really good on a Calm Mind set. You basically eat Hatt and most other potential CM mons for breakfast. Mystical Fire and Nuzzle don't do anything to you. I also ran into a Beat Up Fezandipiti, which is niche, but Covert Cloak was still really good against that.
I know it works on Ghold, which makes at least two OU mons it is good on. Neither is really a Darkrai check without burning Tera, though.
Inspired by Prim, I have tried other CM sweepers to mixed results. I'll give an example. It was decent on Comfey, but it prefered Kee Berry. My testing has not gone much beyond this.
I originally made the comment because I was wondering if people on here knew of any other examples. From there, I would determine if any were fit for Darkrai as either a check or even a soft check. If the answer to that is no then fine. However, I do get the sense this item is maybe a bit underexplored from what I have tried so far.
I'm inclined to agree with you. So many people rightfully hype up boots but how many games have we all lost collectively due to an untimely crunch Def drop or SPD drop from Shadow Ball? I lost two today, methinks that Covert Cloak is a lot less weak than it may first appear due to how many mons would appreciate avoiding the RNG aspects entirely along with Saltcure, etc.
I tried it recently on Hatterine on a whim and has similar experiences to yours, it felt great and it entirely let it sit on Garg and a lot of other threats. I'll tinker with it, cuz I felt like it has good potential on these slower sit there mons. Especially if they have reliable recovery.
Recently, I had a lot of success with it on Primarina. It's really good on a Calm Mind set. You basically eat Hatt and most other potential CM mons for breakfast. Mystical Fire and Nuzzle don't do anything to you. I also ran into a Beat Up Fezandipiti, which is niche, but Covert Cloak was still really good against that.
I know it works on Ghold, which makes at least two OU mons it is good on. Neither is really a Darkrai check without burning Tera, though.
Inspired by Prim, I have tried other CM sweepers to mixed results. I'll give an example. It was decent on Comfey, but it prefered Kee Berry. My testing has not gone much beyond this.
I originally made the comment because I was wondering if people on here knew of any other examples. From there, I would determine if any were fit for Darkrai as either a check or even a soft check. If the answer to that is no then fine. However, I do get the sense this item is maybe a bit underexplored from what I have tried so far.
Covert on CM prim feels especially unworthy, particularly due to how potent sub+lefties is. You're gaining such an advantage with sub, while gaining all the benefits that cloak would give you (immunity to nuzzle/mystical fire, salt cure, Darkrai hax, and status in general) while still gaining recovery.
Covert on CM prim feels especially unworthy, particularly due to how potent sub+lefties is. You're gaining such an advantage with sub, while gaining all the benefits that cloak would give you (immunity to nuzzle/mystical fire, salt cure, Darkrai hax, and status in general) while still gaining recovery.
To do that, you need to drop a move slot and use a turn to set up the Sub. Draining Kiss recovers health. Covert Cloak also helps you avoid the effects of opposing Psychic Noise, which prevents healing and goes right through Sub as a sound move. If two CM Prim were to face off, the cloak one probably wins because of this.
Honestly, I tried leftovers on Prim and I didn't particularly like it. Not saying it's bad. Let me show you the set I have been playing around with and maybe it will paint a better picture of what I'm saying:
Primarina @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Liquid Voice
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
You beat Garg. You beat most opposing CM sweepers. You also can beat Clod if you get set up first because it will either lose to Stored Power or Water type Psychic Noise, depending on its ability. It's also sometimes possible to get set up enough to beat Blissey with Stored Power and a Psychic Noise to deny recovery.
If you were to run Sub, you would have to drop either Stored Power or one of the useful STABs with healing or anti-healing. This would hurt your stallbreaking ability.
I'm inclined to agree with you. So many people rightfully hype up boots but how many games have we all lost collectively due to an untimely crunch Def drop or SPD drop from Shadow Ball? I lost two today, methinks that Covert Cloak is a lot less weak than it may first appear due to how many mons would appreciate avoiding the RNG aspects entirely along with Saltcure, etc.
I tried it recently on Hatterine on a whim and has similar experiences to yours, it felt great and it entirely let it sit on Garg and a lot of other threats. I'll tinker with it, cuz I felt like it has good potential on these slower sit there mons. Especially if they have reliable recovery.
I think the issue with people not really appreciating Covert Cloak is the fact that Leftovers, HDB, Booster Energy - all of that you know you're getting the benefit when it happens. Covert Cloak, save for some cases (Gary, Nuzzle, Mortal Spin) you never know if it made any difference. I bet my ass it'd multiply its usage if there was a text saying when it procs, just like most other items.
I very much believe it is a very strong item on defensive mons that are taking multiple hits (and therefore multiplying hax chance), but with the catch that you need to have very good hazard control.
Random for true, but there's been an Ability that's been on my mind for the past week or so. One that's unfortunately not been distributed to any new Pokemon since Generation 5 (or 6 if you want to count Megas).
Sand Force. It belongs to a whole 8 fully evolved Pokemon (excluding Megas), one of which isn't even in the game while the other is locked away in Ubers. I think it's a cool Ability that's unfortunately given to a lot of Pokemon who'd either rather use another Ability or struggle to make the most of it. Excadrill's Sand Rush and Gastrodon's Storm Drain are right there (the latter isn't even a particularly astounding offensive Pokemon) and Probopass is even worse offensively than Gastrodon (special shoutouts to people who bring Probopass to the battle only for the enemy Kingambit to Tera anyways). This leaves the Dugtrios, which I think the Alolan form is probably the second best user of the Ability behind Excadrill considering it at least has Iron Head. Both of them are still garbo though thanks to their worse-than-Chikorita tier bulk and their atrocious movepools, utterly struggling to hit bulky Earthquake resistances or immunes.
Random for true, but there's been an Ability that's been on my mind for the past week or so. One that's unfortunately not been distributed to any new Pokemon since Generation 5 (or 6 if you want to count Megas).
Sand Force. It belongs to a whole 8 fully evolved Pokemon (excluding Megas), one of which isn't even in the game while the other is locked away in Ubers. I think it's a cool Ability that's unfortunately given to a lot of Pokemon who'd either rather use another Ability or struggle to make the most of it. Excadrill's Sand Rush and Gastrodon's Storm Drain are right there (the latter isn't even a particularly astounding offensive Pokemon) and Probopass is even worse offensively than Gastrodon (special shoutouts to people who bring Probopass to the battle only for the enemy Kingambit to Tera anyways). This leaves the Dugtrios, which I think the Alolan form is probably the second best user of the Ability behind Excadrill considering it at least has Iron Head. Both of them are still garbo though thanks to their worse-than-Chikorita tier bulk and their atrocious movepools, utterly struggling to hit bulky Earthquake resistances or immunes.
As somebody who used dugtrio, it was the worst fucking mistake of my life, and that's saying something since I have made many bad decisions.
You think it would have decent power, but it doesn't even have that. It's piss weak even under sand force and isn't even fast enough to make up for it.
Sand force excadrill however could work, as the limited testing I have done with it has been decent. It has amazng power, as at +2 under sandstorm offensive tusk has a chance to get OHKO'd. It has the issue of speed, but with the proper support I think it could be good.
Darkrai has access to Psyshock allowing to bypass Primarina's Assault Vest, however it has 56.3% chance to OHKO if Darkrai isn't running Modest nature which it OHKOes Tera Poison Primarina.
Tera Psychic allows Darkrai to always OHKO Tera Poison Primarina with Psyshock.
Okay I guess you have a point there but if it fits NP it's not gonna fit psyshock typically because it really wants to be able to beat Gambit amongst other things and slotting psyshock means giving up focus blast or sludge bomb which opens it up to other mons if its running psyshock on NP sets. You see the problem here?
Just because you beat tera poison prim doesn't mean you won't lose to something else because slotting in psyshock means you have to give up a move.
My point still stands that tera is oftentimes the key to beating Darkrai as oftentimes one good defensive tera from you can leave it open to getting blasted as that easily changes whether Darkrai outright beats the mon or hard loses with its np sets. Unlike Volc it actually has to worry about defensive teras and pick and choose because Darkrai can't really take hits unlike Volc and replacing one move makes it worse against something else, often opening it up to an opposing defensive tera allowing it to be wiped off the face of the earth in one or two turns potentially
Random for true, but there's been an Ability that's been on my mind for the past week or so. One that's unfortunately not been distributed to any new Pokemon since Generation 5 (or 6 if you want to count Megas).
Sand Force. It belongs to a whole 8 fully evolved Pokemon (excluding Megas), one of which isn't even in the game while the other is locked away in Ubers. I think it's a cool Ability that's unfortunately given to a lot of Pokemon who'd either rather use another Ability or struggle to make the most of it. Excadrill's Sand Rush and Gastrodon's Storm Drain are right there (the latter isn't even a particularly astounding offensive Pokemon) and Probopass is even worse offensively than Gastrodon (special shoutouts to people who bring Probopass to the battle only for the enemy Kingambit to Tera anyways). This leaves the Dugtrios, which I think the Alolan form is probably the second best user of the Ability behind Excadrill considering it at least has Iron Head. Both of them are still garbo though thanks to their worse-than-Chikorita tier bulk and their atrocious movepools, utterly struggling to hit bulky Earthquake resistances or immunes.
I'm personally under the opinion that Sand Force has been an extremely trash ability ever since gen 6. It was a good ability in 5, as Tyranitar's permanent Sand effectively made it a very easy conditional Sword of Ruin clone back then, and allowed Excadrill to perform some insane feats that generation with its SD sets. Nowdays, the sand duration is too low to get much mileage out of it imo. Most of the Sand setters like Ttar and Hippowdon don't even want to run Smooth Rock, so its better to use the limited sand turns on more meaningful contributions like cleaning with SD Drill. Most of the walls that Sand Force would be useful against can be dispatched via other means I think.
As for Cloak, I think 90% of its utility just comes from being a solid anti-garg measure. I typically just run it whenever I feel a team is extremely Garg weak to have some kind of counter-measure. I think Pokemon that are largely immune to hazards like Skarmory or Latios are the ones where it is easiest to sacrifice an item slot to run it. I've also seen Cloak used on a lot of stored power cheeser Pokemon like Unaware CM Clefable, Cresselia, Latias, etc. which makes sense since it gives these Pokemon several free turns against Garg & makes them immune to being haxed by other moves like Ice Beam. However, there is a bit of a trade off running Cloak on these Pokemon, since you can't run other useful items like Weakness Policy to more quickly recieve setup.
If you were to run Sub, you would have to drop either Stored Power or one of the useful STABs with healing or anti-healing. This would hurt your stallbreaking ability.
The thing about sub prim's stallbreaking ability is that it lets you run tera ghost, which completely runs through entire stall teams minus pex, as it just ignores blissey's stosses and isn't weak to eq. Dropping sub and being forced to tera steel makes you lose the blissey 1v1, actively hurting your stall mu. Substitute is just incredibly useful on prim for blocking toxic and other status, scouting switches, and setting up more cms on passive threats that running stored power honestly isn't worth it. Psynoise + Kiss or Surf + Moonblast on more offensive sets does the job fine.
Also it's worth noting that sub functions similarly to cloak and blocks secondary effects while active, so.
The more I use Covert Cloak, the more I feel it is a really underrated item. If you have a Garg weakness, you can just put cloak on something that otherwise deals with it and it won't threaten your team so much. You block Mortal Spin and Nuzzle and don't get stat drops from attacking moves.
I haven't yet done enough testing with it to know if OU has enough options for this, but about that Darkrai hax... If you can get a mon that can deal with Rai and afford to run this item, you at least mitigate that part of the equation. Maybe a couple lower tier mons like Comfey or Fezandipiti?
As for my opinion on Darkrai, it's still borderline. HO doesn't really care. But teams that aren't really fast do. To me, the biggest issue is how difficult it has been to scout and the damage it does while you try to figure out the set. I do wonder Covert Cloak can mitigate this a bit. You take care of the hax. Wisp and NP turns are still considerations, but at least it becomes maybe a bit more predictable.
The more I use Covert Cloak, the more I feel it is a really underrated item. If you have a Garg weakness, you can just put cloak on something that otherwise deals with it and it won't threaten your team so much. You block Mortal Spin and Nuzzle and don't get stat drops from attacking moves.
I haven't yet done enough testing with it to know if OU has enough options for this, but about that Darkrai hax... If you can get a mon that can deal with Rai and afford to run this item, you at least mitigate that part of the equation. Maybe a couple lower tier mons like Comfey or Fezandipiti?
As for my opinion on Darkrai, it's still borderline. HO doesn't really care. But teams that aren't really fast do. To me, the biggest issue is how difficult it has been to scout and the damage it does while you try to figure out the set. I do wonder Covert Cloak can mitigate this a bit. You take care of the hax. Wisp and NP turns are still considerations, but at least it becomes maybe a bit more predictable.
from the calcs i'm running, fezandipiti actually seems like it could potentially be a hidden anti-darkrai gem:
one of the only things that resists dark pulse without being weak to any of darkrai's common coverage, rendering the common expert belt darkrai set effectively itemless against it
fantastic special bulk in general. with full hp investment, +2 timid darkrai isn't even guaranteed a 2hko with its coverage moves. to win the matchup, darkrai either needs to set up multiple nasty plots, burn tera poison, severely cut into its longevity and switchin potential with life orb, gimp its speed with modest, or get lucky with hax and/or damage rolls. any of those options are very risky for darkrai either in builder or on the battlefield, and that's not even factoring in the possibility of fezandipiti sinking some evs into spdef or running calm mind
moonblast has a 30% spa drop chance, and a 30% toxic chance if you run toxic chain. pretty nasty against a dark-type special setup sweeper, and even if it teras poison to avoid the toxic and resist, it still has to deal with the spa drops
as a bonus, 99 is a pretty solid speed tier—it can be ev'd to outspeed important mons like tusk and kyurem and at minimum severely chunk them with its fairy stab (just as an example, 248 hp/100 spa/160+ spe outspeeds tusk and ohkos full hp sets with +1 moonblast while still tanking +2 timid darkrai; 184/100/224+ doesn't tank darkrai as well but still kills tusk while also outspeeding kyurem, tanking a specs ep, and potentially 2hkoing at +0)
instead of toxic chain, you could maybe run technician icy wind for speed control??? i dunno, just spitballing here. could make it situationally useful against non-eq moon, non-heavy-slam zama, non-psyshock valiant, non-contrary enam, non-tb-ground moth, non-clear-body pult, gliscor, and wake
all of this is before factoring in fezandipiti's item and tera type, so there are plenty of possibilities to further improve its matchups. tera steel might be useful for tera poison sludge bomb and the rare psyshock darkrai, especially since focus blast is seeing a lot less usage on darkrai recently
yes, this is special fezandipiti. physical does have a better damage output but has to rely on play rough, which never hits, never procs, and doesn't do shit to tusk. calm mind also improves its matchups against darkrai and kyurem to the point where it becomes a nearly guaranteed win for fezandipiti after clicking the move once. you could run mixed av or something but that's dumb and bad and prevents you from clicking roost, which is basically mandatory on this thing
I've experimented with fezan in ou before and it's quite solid. Not only does it check darkrai as mentioned, but it is a fantastic pult switchin as well, checking two of the big fast threats in ou, which is really helpful on offenses or balances that struggle into these guys otherwise.
sidenote: love how two of the loyal three are quite usable in ou rn but then munkidori just has nothing going for it lol, it's articuno all over again
the 192 evs and nature can prob be more optimized between spatk and spdef but the speed is for bolt. Moonblast + Hex/Heat Wave w/toxic chain lets you be a nuisance to almost the whole meta, and spread toxic effectively.
from the calcs i'm running, fezandipiti actually seems like it could potentially be a hidden anti-darkrai gem:
one of the only things that resists dark pulse without being weak to any of darkrai's common coverage, rendering the common expert belt darkrai set effectively itemless against it
fantastic special bulk in general. with full hp investment, +2 timid darkrai isn't even guaranteed a 2hko with its coverage moves. to win the matchup, darkrai either needs to set up multiple nasty plots, burn tera poison, severely cut into its longevity and switchin potential with life orb, gimp its speed with modest, or get lucky with hax and/or damage rolls. any of those options are very risky for darkrai either in builder or on the battlefield, and that's not even factoring in the possibility of fezandipiti sinking some evs into spdef or running calm mind
moonblast has a 30% spa drop chance, and a 30% toxic chance if you run toxic chain. pretty nasty against a dark-type special setup sweeper, and even if it teras poison to avoid the toxic and resist, it still has to deal with the spa drops
as a bonus, 99 is a pretty solid speed tier—it can be ev'd to outspeed important mons like tusk and kyurem and at minimum severely chunk them with its fairy stab (just as an example, 248 hp/100 spa/160+ spe outspeeds tusk and ohkos full hp sets with +1 moonblast while still tanking +2 timid darkrai; 184/100/224+ doesn't tank darkrai as well but still kills tusk while also outspeeding kyurem, tanking a specs ep, and potentially 2hkoing at +0)
instead of toxic chain, you could maybe run technician icy wind for speed control??? i dunno, just spitballing here. could make it situationally useful against non-eq moon, non-heavy-slam zama, non-psyshock valiant, non-contrary enam, non-tb-ground moth, non-clear-body pult, gliscor, and wake
all of this is before factoring in fezandipiti's item and tera type, so there are plenty of possibilities to further improve its matchups. tera steel might be useful for tera poison sludge bomb and the rare psyshock darkrai, especially since focus blast is seeing a lot less usage on darkrai recently
yes, this is special fezandipiti. physical does have a better damage output but has to rely on play rough, which never hits, never procs, and doesn't do shit to tusk. calm mind also improves its matchups against darkrai and kyurem to the point where it becomes a nearly guaranteed win for fezandipiti after clicking the move once. you could run mixed av or something but that's dumb and bad and prevents you from clicking roost, which is basically mandatory on this thing
Another weird one that resists Dark Pulse and doesn't get fucked by Sludge Bomb coverage is Diancie. Rock actually resists Poison so Expert Belt does absolutely nothing, even Nasty Plot sets get steamrolled by both its spwall and CM/Diamond Storm setup sets.
Fun cock, I mean, calc:
252 SpA Darkrai Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 72-85 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai: 308-366 (109.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Draining Kiss sets miss the OHKO but it threatens ending the game on the spot if the enemy player is careless. Of course, it is still vulnerable to hax but I guess that's the norm with Darkrai lol
The thing about sub prim's stallbreaking ability is that it lets you run tera ghost, which completely runs through entire stall teams minus pex, as it just ignores blissey's stosses and isn't weak to eq. Dropping sub and being forced to tera steel makes you lose the blissey 1v1, actively hurting your stall mu. Substitute is just incredibly useful on prim for blocking toxic and other status, scouting switches, and setting up more cms on passive threats that running stored power honestly isn't worth it. Psynoise + Kiss or Surf + Moonblast on more offensive sets does the job fine.
Also it's worth noting that sub functions similarly to cloak and blocks secondary effects while active, so.
My biggest problem with this is Stored Power is generally necessary for beating other CM mons. It also improves your Clodsire match up. Saying it isn't worth it to run Stored Power is something that I honestly can't agree with. Nah. Stored Power is pretty good. While you can have different preferences, you being the second person now to suggest this set isn't worth it really surprised me.
You are basically trading a better Blissey matchup with a worse matchup into Clod, Garg, and probably bulky balance in general. And honestly, Tera Ghost is doing like 80% of the heavy lifting there. Tera Steel helps with Poison moves, Psyshock, and opposing Stored Power. It gives you better matchups into things like Darkrai or Iron Crown. Darkrai in particular would destroy Tera Ghost and make it very difficult for Prim to be a soft check for it. This is a trade off you specifically have to be comfortable making for your team.
It's also not like the set I showed can't beat Blissey. You can heal off its massive HP stat with Calm Mind boosted Draining Kiss. 1v1ing it usually requires you to be up a Calm Mind or two ahead of time. But you can wear it down.
The Sub thing was talked about. It's a trade off. You trade off a move slot and require more setup turns in exchange for saving your item slot for something else. Certain matchup are better, but many are worse. Other CM setup mons are often not as great verse Covert Cloak because things like Mystical Fire or Snarl don't slow you down. Psychic Noise, which is one of the best moves in the metagame, goes straight through Sub and prevents you from healing. Cloak allows you to still heal after taking that move. This should not be understated.
Gotten back into the top 10 with my sun buddies, baby. I guess my previous run wasnt a fluke afterall. Nintales sun supreme. Also thank you to RS25802580 for believing in me, when I didnt even believe in myself.
Sun is really difficult build but the reward is SO worth it. I love wallbreakers and sun provides just that. I was really thinking about doing a sun post but I dont really have much time/motivation right now. Maybe another time.
Gotten back into the top 10 with my sun buddies, baby. I guess my previous run wasnt a fluke afterall. Nintales sun supreme. Also thank you to RS25802580 for believing in me, when I didnt even believe in myself.
Sun is really difficult build but the reward is SO worth it. I love wallbreakers and sun provides just that. I was really thinking about doing a sun post but I dont really have much time/motivation right now. Maybe another time.
Ive been using eject pack ninetails myself. Also has fast wisp. I know torkoal can set rocks but i think ninetails is less of a deadweight against many teams
I can officially confirm that even when your team is Zapdos, Moltres, Garchomp and Glimmora, mid ladder will still spam U-turn on you. Does no-one realise they still let you switch Pokemon without it in this game?
I can officially confirm that even when your team is Zapdos, Moltres, Garchomp and Glimmora, mid ladder will still spam U-turn on you. Does no-one realise they still let you switch Pokemon without it in this game?
please do not run eject pack tales, ninetales’ niche is more so just about it having encore and healing wish, and the fast wisp is nice. heat rock is still always better, eject pack overheat only works once and then you have 4 more turns of sun instead of 7. pairing sun setters withe eject button pivots works much better than dropping the weather rock for an eject item
I hope everyone in the US had a good 4th of July, but now let’s address something that affects us at a worldwide scale. I want to inform the public about what I find to be the most banworthy and unhealthy mon in the metagame. It’s not Darkrai or Kyurem or Wogre or Zama or any of these other mons mentioned. Storm Zone and CTC brought it up in their posts about the survey. Normally I am not one to agree with some of their more outlandish takes, but I 100% agree with their stance about Gliscor. It’s a plague in the metagame. I would go as far in saying that Gliscor is public enemy number 1 and the mon I would 100% push for a suspect. Strap yourselves up cause this is gonna be long.
Why Gliscor is the true Opp of SV OU
This post will be divided into three sections.
Why Gliscor should be suspected.
Pro-Gliscor Arguments
Benefits to removing Gliscor
Before I explain why I feel this strong hatred for Gliscor, I wanna say that the utility sets are not the problem, in fact I consider them good for the meta, being a strong defensive glue that fulfills several important roles, yet is still exploitable by the tier’s strong offensive behemoths like Kyurem and Wogre, but like Archaludon before, the offensive sets are what broke it. The Swords Dance set which has solidified itself as the best variant of Gliscor, and sparks the few ounces of discussion for a suspect. For the purposes of keeping this focused, I will only mention the SD set with some nods to utility Gliscor.
Why Gliscor Should Be Suspected
Can Easily Outlast Checks
SD Gliscor’s pool of checks are already small, consisting of the Steel Birds, Dondozo, Tusk, Wogre, Encore, and fast Ice move user. However this list becomes shallower when you consider that Gliscor can very easily outlast them.
These three are some of the most discussed mons in the tier for a suspect and are also the best breakers in OU. However what these three have in common is that they all be beaten long term with hazards, status, and chip damage. This is how good Balances manage to handle these monsterous threats or any breaker for that matter, however none of this applies to Gliscor, which pushes it over the edge.
Poison Heal invalidates every common form of progress making such as chip dmg, Knock Off, hazards, and status. Meanwhile Gliscor comes in plenty of times, and has Knock to force its own progress. Since it’s often paired with Spikes, the opponent’s check will be worn down way before Gliscor goes down.
Uninteractive Gameplay
Gliscor bounces off Knock Off and SR chip, while being immune to status from mons like Glowking or Dragapult. Poison Heal also means it can be chipped for big damage and still heal it off. If you try checking it defensively, Gliscor is just gonna get up more SD boosts. The only way to actually deal with Gliscor is to one-shot it, and very few mons in the tier actually can. Since Gliscor is a bulky li’l bitch with only 2 weaknesses, your options are limited to Ice moves or really strong Water STAB. Let’s look at the mons that have these options.
: Doesn’t even one-shot max SpD Gliscor with Ice Spinner, gets Knock’d in return and chipped by hazards.
: Needs Modest and SpA investment to one-shot Gliscor with Ice Beam and even that has a roll to fail vs SpD variants. Can’t switch into Gliscor at all.
: Ice Fang doesn’t one-shot, also rare on Zama outside of AoA sets, and it would greatly prefer Stone Edge to combat the rising usage of Moltres.
: Easily one-shots with Ice Beam.
: Easily one-shots with Ice Beam but can’t switch into Knock.
: Cudgel only has a 12.5% chance to OHKO Gliscor even with no Def investment and gets bounced off by mixed or physically defensive variants, meanwhile +2 Facade does a shitton. Has to Tera in order to guarantee the one-shot.
: Needs Life Orb in order to one-shot and can’t switch into Knock at all.
: Ice Spinner bounces off physically or mixed bulky Gliscor, also hates being Knock’d.
: Specially bulky Gliscor tanks a Surf. Hydro Pump is too inaccurate and risky. Easily worn down by Knock + Spikes and can get OHKOd by +2 Facade/EQ after rocks.
: Razor Shell does jack shit, even to specially bulky Gliscor.
: OHKOs with Axel, but you have to pray it actually lands.
: Bounces off Waterfall and Avalanche still doesn’t one shot. Gets destroyed by Knock Off + hazards.
: Specs Hydro Steam is Sun exclusive. Boots sets cannot OHKO SpD or mixed bulk Gliscor without Hydro Pump which is unreliable and can be PP stalled by Protect.
: Same deal with Weavile.
: Hydro Pump doesn’t OHKO and it can be PP stalled by Protect.
Everything else is just niche and/or doesn’t OHKO Gliscor anyways. So out of all of these, 7 OU relevant mons can OHKO a healthy Gliscor. One of them has to Terastilize in order to guarantee a one-shot, the other can be scouted with Protect, another needs LO in order to kill, and 2 have inaccurate Ice moves. While all of these can do a lot of damage to Gliscor, it doesn’t matter when Gliscor can very easily heal all the way back up with the amount of switch-in opportunities it has.
Choice users like Rillaboom and Specs Dragapult get scouted by Protect, thus allowing Gliscor to recover even more health. So even if they could threaten a KO, Gliscor simply can switch out. No other mon has that level of longevity and bulk.
Broken With Tera
Imo Gliscor is the most broken abuser of Tera in OU, even moreso than Volcarona was. Normally this isn’t really a talking point, because a majority of the tier can break through their checks with Tera. Kyurem clicking Tera Ground to 1v1 Kingambit and Zama clicking Tera Fire to 1v1 Dragapult. This is to be expected in SV OU, and players have learned to exploit that dynamic with team synergies. Dragapult can lose to Tera Fire Zama, but when paired with Lando, it creates a core that dispatches Zama regardless of what Tera it runs. It’s not that simple with SD Gliscor.
Because offensive and defensive counterplay is so limited, a single flip of the coin can turn into a disaster, and Gliscor is bulky enough to take almost any neutral hit, so even if you do force a Tera, Gliscor is probably gonna still live that next hit. Gliscor is also much less predictable with Tera types, either being Water, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Normal, or Grass. It makes Gliscor difficult to manage even for Offensive teams who have members that die from 1-2 hits to an SD boosted Gliscor and that raw bulk means Gliscor takes 2 for 1 against aggressive builds, possibly taking down the whole team too. Tera Normal is the most broken of all these, turning Gliscor into a budget Ursaluna that heals itself every turn.
There’s also a lot less risk to Terastilizing into a Normal type cause there’s only like 3 Fighting types in the tier and none of them are actually able to OHKO a healthy Gliscor with minimal Def investment.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 252+ Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Great Tusk Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0+ Def Tera Normal Gliscor: 296-350 (84 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Overly Dominant Vs Playstyles
When you combine a broken setup sweeper that never dies with great bulk, only two weaknesses, a negligence for passive damage, and Tera, you get Gliscor. Even well built Balances fall to a free SD Gliscor sweep, and Gliscor is ironically really good on Balance teams. All counterplay can either be outlasted by Gliscor or turned into a sack with Tera. Those Lando/Gking/Gambit/Cinder Offenses? Gliscor shits on them after Tera. Zapdos + Gking BO? Free Swords Dances. There’s no other mon in the tier can run away with games as easily as Gliscor. HO is the best playstyle rn and its the only one that SD Gliscor doesn’t absolutely shit on. Even so, Gliscor can very easily pair itself with anti-HO mons like Garganacl, Dnite, and Roar Moltres.
And now I wanna take a moment to look at these aforementioned “checks” shall we.
: Both can get Roost and Body Press PP stalled by Gliscor long term, resisting Body Press and healing them off even at +6. Gliscor can also very easily switch out to another resist/Ghost and come back out.
: Garbage mon that only fits on Stall. You need Avalanche for Gliscor but if you run that, then Gambit can 1v1 you. Knock + hazards also beats you long term.
: Can 2HKO with Ice Spinner but gets worn down by Gliscor longterm. Gets Violated hard by Tera.
: Loses to Tera and is 2HKOd by +2 Facade. (OHKOd if Tera Normal)
Encore: Gliscor can come in multiple times and even burn a bit of PP with Protect.
: The former two can’t switch into Knock. All of them lose if Gliscor Teras.
It Creates Annoying 50/50s With The Utility Sets
So lets say you think Gliscor is SD, you swap to Wogre, predicting them to click Swords Dance. Oops! It was Utility Gliscor and now your Wogre got Toxic’d. The next game you load up, you swap to Mola, not worrying about it eating a Toxic, then it reveals Swords Dance and now it gets up another boost as you Flip Turn. Then it Teras in front of Darkrai and sweeps the whole teams, ggs fucker.
The vastly different responses each set has makes dealing with Gliscor harder than it already is.
Limits Creativity
Gliscor shuts down a lot of strategies and makes some mons obsolete cause of their inability to threaten Gliscor. If anything it discourages the use of otherwise helpful Pokemon, whether they are OU viable or niche.
: Zapdos punishes braindead offense teams with paralysis but is walled by Gliscor without some tech like Weather Ball.
: Tinakton for example, checks several threats, most notably Darkrai and provides endless utility + a Knock absorber thanks to Pickpocket, but is setup bait for Gliscor.
: Even cool shit like Okidogi hard lose to Gliscor if it doesn’t have Ice Punch.
Choice users already are limited by hazards, but are restricted further by Gliscor just clicking Protect.
While I do still hate Darkrai, it encouraged players to look deeper in the builder for creative niche options like Keldeo, Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Iron Hands, and SpD Bellibolt. These are mons that checks Darkrai but do other things in battle. I would sooner remove Gliscor because it discourages creativity more than Rai/Kyu/Zama/Wogre, or any of these other mons.
Pro-Gliscor Arguments
“It helps deal with Knock Off”
Not only is Gliscor a great Knock abuser in the tier because of how easily it can come in and get it off, but this argument falls further to the ground when a majority of Knock abusers threaten Gliscor or at least 1v1 it such as Darkrai, Weavile, Deoxys, Samu, Clefable, Great Tusk, and Meowscarada.
“It falls to offensive pressure”
When you have a mon as bulky as Gliscor who can easily recover off the damage and Tera on top of that, it’s not going down easily.
“Banning it would only make defensive teams worse and offensive teams stronger”
HO has the best matchup into Gliscor and if anything, SD Gliscor restricts defensive teams even more than Kyurem or Ogerpon. Banning Gliscor would encourage defensive teams to run more options like Zapdos that perform well into these offensive teams. While SD Gliscor hasn’t seen a ton of notable WCOP appearences (mostly because alot of them are too scared to go for the win) its effects are felt. Part of the reason you see so much offense is because its the only matchup that doesn’t have an astronomical disadvantage against Gliscor.
“It keeps things in check”
While it does check some key threats like Zama, Raging Bolt, Roaring Moon, and Gouging Fire, there’s already a mon that can check these threats, it’s called Landorus. Gliscor’s defensive role is not something that can’t be fulfilled by other already high tier mons in the meta.
“Without Gliscor we would be in the King/Zap/Lu meta”
I swear, some of y’all have an unhealthy hatred for this core from the last metagames. It was developed during DLC1 which only lasted a few months, if that was the only DLC then the meta would eventually branch out of these team structures. Even without Gliscor, the meta is better equipped in handling this core. Mixed Kyurem blows this shit away, Specs Bolt does a ton even to Ting-Lu, Roaring Moon can cripple Lu/Zap, Weavile/Meow are way better now, etc. Can we stop using this shitty scapegoat as an excuse to not test Gliscor or any mon for that matter?
Benefits to Banning Gliscor
Increased Team Diversity
The main benefit is that Balance/Fat/Stall becomes better as they now don’t have to worry about an SD Gliscor 6-0ing them. While Balance is still high in usage (though eclipsed by offensive teams) running them was a risk cause of SD Gliscor. Players would be more encouraged to bring slower builds, creating more team diversity.
Beneficial and Niche Mons Become Better
There are several mons in the meta that help the tier but they give Gliscor free turns. Here’s a list of mons that benefit from a Gliscorless meta.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that Leng Loi and Pinkacross did a teambuilding stream with. It checks Darkrai, Valiant, and non-Heavy Slam Zama while pivoting or spreading Toxic like wildfire. It’d see more legit usage without Gliscor using it for free turns.
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to Spook.
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
Without Gliscor, we can see more cool niche picks on ladder and tours.
Less Spikes
If you hate Spikes, then banning Gliscor would give you one less Spikes setter to worry about.
Conclusion
To everyone who hates Gliscor, voice your stances now while the cauldron is still boiling. If you love creativity, if you love to see niche picks pop up, and if you love a healthier metagame, then I encourage you to join the Ban Gliscor side and say no to Gliscor. By the end of WCOP, I hope we can spread awareness of Gliscor’s chokehold on the meta and push for a suspect test.
Not held back at all by Gluscor, but appreciates a metagame without it regardless.
No longer hard walled by Gliscor. Offensive sets can also thrive and take SD Gliscor’s original niche.
Takes up Gliscor’s defensive niche and becomes better at making progress.
Offensive and Wisp variants become much better.
Cool defensive mon that checks special attackers no longer having to worry about being the freest Gliscor food ever.
Both walled by SpD Gliscor. Without Gliscor, their anti-offense niches take a larger effect, especially for Zapdos.
Utility sets become even better without it giving up free switch-ins for Gliscor.
Checks Zama, Darkrai, and others. No longer has to slot in Ice Punch and could just Knock Lando for chip.
Cool niche mon that 
Another hype mon that wouldn’t have to run Tera Blast in order to break defensive teams. Knock and Grass Knot does the trick vs Lando, Tusk, and Ting-Lu. Plus Prankster T-Wave to dissuade certain HO mons.
Electric type with good bulk and the rare ability to Toxic Grounds. Not having to run Soak or Tera Blast to hit Gliscor anymore is huge. Specially Bulky Bellibolt can soft-check threats like Darkrai, Valiant, Raging Bolt, Gholdengo, and Zapdo with Toxic or paralysis. Shout outs go to 
Lets be honest, without Gliscor, this thing would cook as seen in the Home metagame where Gliscor wasn’t added yet. Great special bulk and reliable Ghost resist that can spam Knock Off and Poison. It’s also a really good Darkrai check that can punish its teammates with Poison Touch Knock Offs.
The more I think about it, the more I think Umbreon would find a niche in a Gliscor-less meta. It’s a Dark/Ghost resist with reliable recovery and Toxic. Umbreon also punishes greedy status spam with Synchronize which is notable into Hex Pult and Wisp variants of Darkrai. It also blanks Boots and Mixed variants of Kyurem pretty hard.
