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it lacks any form of offensive utility despite having torch song as its very slow and can be easily dispatched, it has a medicore movepool, it doesn’t fit on most playstyles and needs tera to actually get value, it may invalidate iron moth but iron moth isn’t meta defining.
It on paper functions as a wincon in addition to being a wall meant to blanket check things. Movepool is small, not mediocre and what it does have is good (seeing as it has Torch Song, Hex, Wisp, Rose, Earth Power, Encore and Substitute). Its home is fat and balance teams.
It also checks more than Iron Moth (which while no longer near its peak, is still useful). Zamazenta, CM Clef, Cinderace, Iron Crown, Glowking, certain Iron Valiant sets, and can expand the list with Tera.
The reason it’s not used nearly as much is that there are just better structures that don’t need it and function better with other Pokémon and the meta has evolved to not favor it as much. Like Eeveeto said, you have to be conscious and build around it so it’s not super splashable at all.
I may hate meowscarada for auto losing to anything faster than it, but skeledirge is honestly the least viable of the gen 9 starters since it ultimately fails as a defensive pokemon despite having unaware.
It doesn’t fail (are we ignoring that it’s excellent in UU and viable in Ubers while in the past, being a staple of this tier?) at being a defensive Pokémon. The meta has simply evolved to better handle it or exploit it (CM Ghost Val for example).
All this said, I’m of the opinion that Skeledirge should have its movepool explored more because some of the stuff in there is really standout (encore and roar are unique tools) and people should also branch out to other Tera types with it.
I want to start by saying that I do not enjoy this meta.
You might think it has to do with Roaring Moon, or Waterpon, or Kyurem, or Gliscor. It doesn’t. This is also not an anti-Tera post. Tera isn’t getting banned and personally Tera provides a lot of skill expression and encourages game-to-game planning.
I don’t think any form of banning with solve the thing holding SV OU back from being an enjoyable and competitive metagame. To sum it up.
The Metagame Encourages Matchup Fishing
In a post made by volcanionisgood , he brought up how SPL players outsmart themselves by running sub-optimal sets to cteam each other. I don’t think most SPL players are unskilled tryhards, but I believe SPL is a showcase of what the meta looks like, and it doesn’t look great. Players aren’t thinking about their gameplan like in any other generation, but rather how hard they can 6-0 the opponent.
Favorable/Unfavorable matchups have always existed in competitive play regardless of the game, but SV OU is a tier where matchups are so polarizing, they wind up being the deciding factor of a match for the most part.
The meta is like this because…
-SV OU is simultaneously the easiest and hardest gen to play in. Due to the absurd power creep brought in, we have a gigantic pool of hyper-optimized threats. You got braindead shit like Samurott, Ting-Lu, Valiant, Waterpon, Gambit, and Gholdengo running around. Even stuff from old gens like Gking, Dnite, Zapdos, and Mola are stupidly easy to click with. None of these are broken threats, but they lead to auto-piloty game play with low risk and insane rewards. They’re tailored to dominate one matchup or the other. Samurott and Waterpon shred Balances to an unreasonable degree. Dragonite has a million different sets and you risk losing for not guessing the right one. Ting-Lu never dies and shits out spikes everywhere. Mixed DD Kyurem 6-0s alot of Balances. Zapdos and Moltres are gamblers. Pecha is an overly optimized physical wall that Game Freak gave Parting Shot for whatever fucking reason.
Even outside of the typical HO/BO/Balance structures, you have ridiculously good enablers of Sun, Webs, and Stall. These have incredibly one-sided matchups. Sun deletes the fuck out of Balance/Stall because Specs Proto SpA Wake 2HKOs resists for some fucked up reason. Dozo is a perfectly optimized Unaware wall that shuts down a majority of physical offense and Stall in general incentivizes a dedicated Stall Breaking core. Which would be easier said than done if dealing with HO and dumbass Waterpon wasn’t an issue. Gholdengo catapulted Webs to OU viability, making Corv irrelevant vs Webs and making Boots mandatory on Tusk, otherwise Tusk has no shot at removing Webs. Webs vs HO is a near guaranteed ggs if they don’t have some shit like Hatt.
When you consider the fact that the average ladder player has to face all of Balance, BO, HO, Stall, Sun, and Webs. It creates a frustrating ladder experience where you lose ELO because you ran into Webs with your HO 5 times in a row. You could insert some anti-Webs tech, but you have to account for the dozens of other standard threats you need to face. The chaotic and unpredictable environment of SV OU leads to one-sided games. I’ve managed to score wins off much better players because I brought in a mon that utterly 6-0d them. This is even worse in the tournament scene where players are more encouraged to actively cheese each other.
Regardless of what you think is broken or not. Rewarding a playerbase for matchup fishing instead of improving as a player is not good for the tier’s health. Its reminiscent of Gen 5 OU which also has polarizing matchups.
Unfortunately there isn’t an easy solution. We could ban a couple threats, but nothing can reverse the damage caused by Game Freak introducing mons with inflated stats and optimized tool kits.
If you hate SV OU. Play another format, or even play a different game. Pick up a new hobby. Which is what I’ve done lately. Everytime I feel like I’m enjoying the format, I get reminded constantly on why I despise it. So I’ve gotten into interests like Hollow Knight, sketching, script writing, reading books, and editing. I don’t need Pokemon anymore to satisfy my dopamine sensors.
I will continue making posts in the forums and remain active on Discord, I will still make teams, but I’m gonna remove myself from the atrocity that is laddering in SV OU as much as I could.
Tera is one of a few factors in even if it takes skill to use. It inherently makes the meta unpredictable. I would love to be surprised, but I don’t think the Moon ban will help much tbh. There’s so much power creep I think offensive teams will always have a significant advantage over slower play styles.
All this said, I’m of the opinion that Skeledirge should have its movepool explored more because some of the stuff in there is really standout (encore and roar are unique tools) and people should also branch out to other Tera types with it.
I used to use Skeledirge a ton back around DLC, imo my favorite set was slack off/torch song/earthpower/roar. Just an extremely great closet wincon that is durable enough to withstand hits and become a nightmare. I was a big fan of Tera Flying, but Bolt made that a bit harder to utilize... I think that Tera Water or even Ground are very much exploring though.
I don't think Moon's ban will really change anything, aside from making speed tiers on some teams a bit more lenient and priority Attackers worse. HO will also generally be worse but on the flipside, options for replacements are a dime a dozen. Moon could also be very scary for HO teams so the actual impact of its loss are a mixed bag there as well.
Most of the mons Moon limited have other checks that will likely rise up with it gone like Garchomp or Samurott-H. Other sets like band and scarf imo were not actually better than existing options like Meowscarada & I'd argue Corv / Skarm / Ting-Lu get better cause they aren't losing their helmet or Leftovers to Knock, which will help against late-game Gambit or Raging Bolt.
Offense is dealt a blow by losing a strong Knocker but we will prob see it recover with other knock mons gaining traction like Ogerpon-W, Valiant, or Weavile.
Only change I see is that random Tera Fairy mon's may become less common, but most Tera Fairy Mons are still going to be used because it is so universally applicable to Dragons and Darks.
I think Balance and Bulky Offense will feel much less pressured by the presence of Moon. Moon's ridiculous combination of power and speed forced you to trade one of your defensive mons and sometimes even Tera just to deal with it. Like even if Corv beats Moon 1v1, you end up losing Corv entirely. Moon was incredible at just leaving a huge path of ruin in its wake. I think we'll see the Birds™ become much better since they're no longer being forced to go down with Moon. Other DD'ers like Kyurem and Dragonite will probably rise up, but they're more exploitable with their lower speed and hazard weakness. I can also see Zama and Tusk becoming more reliable physical walls since they're no longer scared to death of Tera Flying/Fairy Moon blowing them up, and alternative Tera Fairy sweepers aiming to mimic Moon just aren't as effective. Moon is one of the sickest mons we got this gen in both design and gameplay, but it's probably for the better that it go in order to give bulkier styles some breathing room.
I think Balance and Bulky Offense will feel much less pressured by the presence of Moon. Moon's ridiculous combination of power and speed forced you to trade one of your defensive mons and sometimes even Tera just to deal with it. Like even if Corv beats Moon 1v1, you end up losing Corv entirely. Moon was incredible at just leaving a huge path of ruin in its wake. I think we'll see the Birds™ become much better since they're no longer being forced to go down with Moon. Other DD'ers like Kyurem and Dragonite will probably rise up, but they're more exploitable with their lower speed and hazard weakness. I can also see Zama and Tusk becoming more reliable physical walls since they're no longer scared to death of Tera Flying/Fairy Moon blowing them up, and alternative Tera Fairy sweepers aiming to mimic Moon just aren't as effective. Moon is one of the sickest mons we got this gen in both design and gameplay, but it's probBbly for the better that it go in order to give bulkier styles some breathing room.
Bulkier styles typically were able to handle Moon to a decent extent with Mons like Garganacl, Corviknight, Clefable, Ting-Lu, Zapdos, and various offensive checks like Weavile with its priority Ice Shard, all of which had wider reaching applications against the rest of the metagame. I do agree that the general play pattern these styles will now play at will be significantly more relaxed though, even if the team compositions themselves will likely not shift around too greatly following its ban - we might see some stuff like Weavile drop Ice Shard more frequently now, other guys like Pecharunt or Garg run less Tera Fairy, etc.
That said... is giving bulkier styles more breathing room desirable when their winrate across many of their key mons like Gliscor, Clefable, Garg, Corv, etc. all already have win-rates above 60% even in a moon meta (where as moon itself was around 50%)? On the flipside, does Moon's departure actually improve bulkier teams when the eyeball list of threats that get more common with its departure are mons like Samurott-H, Ogerpon-W, Garchomp, Darkrai, and a few others, all of which are potent breakers in their own right, while getting more chances to batter the opponent? Its probably impossible to tell at this time, so I look forward to seeing how the metagame will shake up after this ban - if it shakes up at all.
Bulkier styles typically were able to handle Moon to a decent extent with Mons like Garganacl, Corviknight, Clefable, Ting-Lu, Zapdos, and various offensive checks like Weavile with its priority Ice Shard, all of which had wider reaching applications against the rest of the metagame. I do agree that the general play pattern these styles will now play at will be significantly more relaxed though, even if the team compositions themselves will likely not shift around too greatly following its ban - we might see some stuff like Weavile drop Ice Shard more frequently now, other guys like Pecharunt or Garg run less Tera Fairy, etc.
That said... is giving bulkier styles more breathing room desirable when their winrate across many of their key mons like Gliscor, Clefable, Garg, Corv, etc. all already have win-rates above 60% even in a moon meta (where as moon itself was around 50%)? On the flipside, does Moon's departure actually improve bulkier teams when the eyeball list of threats that get more common with its departure are mons like Samurott-H, Ogerpon-W, Garchomp, Darkrai, and a few others, all of which are potent breakers in their own right, while getting more chances to batter the opponent? Its probably impossible to tell at this time, so I look forward to seeing how the metagame will shake up after this ban - if it shakes up at all.
Speaking as someone who ran Garg while getting reqs (and a secondary back up check), Garg only worked if you were running set up Garg and the Moon was not a Taunt variant. If you didn't run set up Garg, it lost to bulky roost Moon. Other stuff you listed were not consistent counterplay as they all lost to one set or another. There wasn't enough counterplay between its sets (and speaking of Clef, that was running Unaware for Moon which not only is more specific than MG, it also still flopped into Tera Ground). And priority was unreliable into bulky roost.
Gliscor is just being a broken mon in general, but also citing winrates is never a good base argument to start an argument with as there's a lot of factors that go into what causes something to win a lot. Stuff like Clef, Garg and Corv are doing well as they have good match ups into many of the top stuff running around, but why is this something that we would see as not desirable? It's not like offense is bad (on the contrary, Moon was really rough for offense so its exit will give them more room to work). When it comes to stuff like Samurott-H and Ogerpon-W, they'll always be there whether Moon was banned or not. But removing Moon eases some burden on the builder and will give these teams more room to explore other options for handling stuff (also Garchomp in that list is kinda funny when its niche lies in Helmet+hazard stack, it's still not really what I consider great offensively or particularly scary at all).
I voted ban so I'm happy with Moon's exit, and I think its removal will help take some of the burden off the builder (not entirely but it'll help), and may actually encourage exploration of other offensive pokemon in general which I think will in turn lead to more interesting metagame developments. It's too early to say anything concrete right now, but I'm looking forward to seeing how things shake out now.
Garchomp uprising seems to have already started, I'm seeing mixed life orb chomp all over the ladder. Life orb fell off this gen so I really forgot how hard the attacks hit, especially when you can chain a Draco then earthquake at full power.
Outrage Garchomp is surprisingly good. Garchomp this gen feels like a torpedo that launches itself into opposing physical walls hoping to take them down with it and nothing better for that than a 120 BP Dragon move. It's not even that bad locking into Outrage since it'll cancel if you hit a fairy, it only truly sucks when you run into a Corv team. Helmet Offensive Rocks has been surprisingly solid, it can act as a psuedo spinblocker if it gets Tusk down to 30ish.
Roaring Moon ban isn’t too impactful. It just means HO players have to actually play the game now.
But it’d like to point out the mons that Roaring Moon affected the most. Either because it used them as setup fodder, or overshadowed them.
The Winners Of The Roaring Moon Ban
Part of why D-Gleam and T-Wave became popular on Gholdengo is because Make It Rain gave Moon free setup opportunities. Now sets like Scarf/Specs will be better with MiR being a more clickable move.
The way Roaring Moon shaped the meta indirectly affected Kingambit’s viability. It’s obviously still a top 5 mon lol, but it enforced a lot of annoying fat physical walls like Corv that Gambit doesn’t enjoy facing. With Moon gone, I expect there’ll be less Corv as Ghold will increase in usage.
You might be surprised to see these on a list of mons that benefit from Moon being gone, because they were some of the most notable checks to it, but here’s the thing. They had to give up their Boots (or Helmet in Lando’s case) and a huge chunk of their HP just to wall it out. This was a problem when Moon basically opened up a hole for its teammates like Gambit or Zama. Now these guys can comfortably deal with the physically-oriented HO threats with less of a fear of losing their items. Plus Dnite can appreciate having one less mon to compete with.
These two hated Roaring Moon. Pecha less-so cause it could tank a Knock with Colbur or Tera and cripple with Malignant Chain, but it wasn’t a favorable trade. Pecha only improves more as a physical wall and Gking becomes easier to splash.
Before we realized Moon has other sets, Raging Bolt was a very good check to it, because partners like Tusk or Lando can often force a Tera, but with Tera Fairy and Ground sets taking advantage of Moon, plus the abundance of Ting-Lu + Gliscor, Bolt began falling off. Bolt will still have problems with Grounds, but it’s now more reliable as a rkiller.
Roaring Moon pretty much enforced Dgleam onto Moth, losing out on options like Energy Ball or Tera Blast. Ofc Gleam will still be great for Dragons and Zama, but it is less of a requirement now that Moon is out of the picture.
Crown absolutely hated Moon, so losing such a major threat will improve things for it. I doubt it’ll make a comeback though. With Ting-Lu being as popular as it is, and players experimenting with other forms of counterplay to Kyurem, there is less of a need for Crown.
Similarly to Crown, Moon threatened it hard and could turn it into fodder with Tera Fairy. Unlike Crown though, Latios has the potential of being OU. Utterly destroys Balance with CM + Recover while providing utility as a Gliscor/Kyurem check with Tera Steel.
Outshined by Pecha/Ghold still, but like those two, its another Ghost that benefits from losing a strong Dark type in the tier.
Stall is one of the biggest benefactors of the Moon ban. Not having to sacrifice Dozo’s Boots to it is a big deal. One less Knock Off abuser is a W for Stall.
Moon turned this thing into fodder and did really well into the structures it fits on.
Really cool/underrated mon that Moon gave problems, albeit less than Hoopa cause of Steam Eruption.
Lead with this T1 and watch Volc trade with basically everything. You really only need STABs + Taunt to rip apart Balance. Shuca lets you take out any Ground type you want and check Dnite in a pinch. Volcanion is also solid defensively on BOs. Takes advantage of Molt, and can semi-check Waterpon. You could also tech Sludge Wave to 1v1 Prima but Wisp is nice in case you really need to clutch a burn vs stuff like Gambit or Zama. Tera Ghost also just lets Volc 6-0 Stall, no shitty Fire Spin needed. He’s just that guy.
Not only did Tera Fairy Moon make Tankchomp unreliable, but it outclassed Chomp as a breaker. I think Scale Shot is hot ass, both at breaking and sweeping. Not strong enough to mess with Balance and not fast enough to consistently sweep. Instead, it’s best to focus on what Chomp is actually good at. Breaking shit.
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 208 Atk / 4 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Swords Dance
This set enables a bunch of physical threats like Zama/Gambit/Dnite. An SD-boosted Outrage or EQ OHKOs every physical wall in the format minus Corv/Skarm/Zama and Dozo.
+2 208 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 383-452 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 208 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 52 Def Tera Water Garganacl: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 208 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 8 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 411-485 (86.8 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (mola dies if it clicks Flip Turn here)
+1 208 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 403-476 (105.4 - 124.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 208 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 391-461 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (tusk dies if it clicks any button)
Vs Zama, Chomp can force chip with EQ + Rough Skin and switch out. Vs Corv/Skarm, +2 Fire Fang does a shitton and you could Tera Fire to straight-up OHKO them after rocks. Vs Dozo, Outrage 3HKOs and forces Rest which can be taken advatange of afterwards. Tera Fire also has the benefit of flipping its matchup with Weavile, Pult, and Val.
What’s cool about Chomp is it’s bulky enough to find setup opportunities or take neutral hits. For reference, this thing can tank a Cudgel, and Clef Moonblast. The most notable thing about Chomp however is the speed tier. Breakers with 100+ speed do well here, outspeeding the entire defensive meta and opposing breakers like Kyurem. This means you can remove a bit of speed for some bulk. I even sacrificed a couple Atk EVs in the spread above, leaving enough to guarantee a one-shot on Moltres with +2 Outrage.
Yes, this set does die fast due to LO chip and being locked into Outrage, but this set isn’t meant for lasting. It is built to kamikaze into a wall and delete it from the game for other physical walls to pick up the scraps.
Fits onto those BOs nicely and pairs well with mons like
Could also run it with Healing Wish support from or
There’s not really a “loser” in a post-Moon meta except maybe Clef, G-Weez, and Scizor, but even those guys appreciate not having to hold entire teams together from the Roaring Menace.
Banning Moon is a step in the right direction, but I feel there is a lot that needs to happen in order for the meta to truly be good. Its playable, but matchup fishing is too much of an issue on ladder and tournaments rn to ignore.
Thinking about it, I think there may be an argument to be made about ting-lu being banworthy.
It may not be the most aggressive pokemon offensively, but it gets hazards up like nobodys business, and gets free progress due to its insane bulk + ruination and stuff like whirlwind and earthquake to chip things and has some scary bulk to pull it off that hamurott wishes it had (No shade to hamurott mon is goated but hamurott isn't ting lu.) Yeah ting-lu may not stick out as broken, but I think the question is with it is if it too good of an enabler and is it healthy? And I think there may be an argument to call it banworthy, as it definitely isn't the most healthy thing in the world with how it makes progress so easily.
Granted saying ting lu is more broken than kyurem is absolutely false, but maybe someday it would be a good idea to give ting lu the boot because it definitely enables a lot of controversial pokemon potentially a bit too well and the lack of good options to deal with it besides like the already likely broken kyurem and lack of defoggers (I miss defog torn so much) that deal with it isn't helping things. And granted this isn't the easiest argument to make but it definitely is an argument that can be made.
Thinking about it, I think there may be an argument to be made about ting-lu being banworthy.
It may not be the most aggressive pokemon offensively, but it gets hazards up like nobodys business, and gets free progress due to its insane bulk + ruination and stuff like whirlwind and earthquake to chip things and has some scary bulk to pull it off that hamurott wishes it had (No shade to hamurott mon is goated but hamurott isn't ting lu.) Yeah ting-lu may not stick out as broken, but I think the question is with it is if it too good of an enabler and is it healthy? And I think there may be an argument to call it banworthy, as it definitely isn't the most healthy thing in the world with how it makes progress so easily.
Granted saying ting lu is more broken than kyurem is absolutely false, but maybe someday it would be a good idea to give ting lu the boot because it definitely enables a lot of controversial pokemon potentially a bit too well and the lack of good options to deal with it besides like the already likely broken kyurem and lack of defoggers (I miss defog torn so much) that deal with it isn't helping things. And granted this isn't the easiest argument to make but it definitely is an argument that can be made.
I don't think there is much of an argument for this, especially when Gliscor does a lot of what Ting Lu does that makes it unhealthy, but better. It still sets hazards for free, and disrupts heavily with Toxic and Knock Off, but it also has U-turn to enable attackers better, and Swords Dance to punish typical counterplay involving Defensive Pokemon like Clefable. Granted, I'm not saying we should suspect Gliscor (again), but just comparing the two suggests Ting Lu isn't that bad.
Ting Lu for me is very overrated Mon. Even if I maybe am wrong on that statement, it does good things in preventing Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Darkrai and several other Mons in running over the Tier. The lack of recovery moves outside of Rest really limits Ting Lu and its nowhere near to be broken or unhealthy.
Also, unless Ting Lu is fast Taunt (making it frailer) or runs Gholdengo, using Ting Lu vs Defog Corviknight is playing with 5 Mons. This alone should prevent discussion about Ting Lu suspect.
Bulkier styles typically were able to handle Moon to a decent extent with Mons like Garganacl, Corviknight, Clefable, Ting-Lu, Zapdos, and various offensive checks like Weavile with its priority Ice Shard, all of which had wider reaching applications against the rest of the metagame. I do agree that the general play pattern these styles will now play at will be significantly more relaxed though, even if the team compositions themselves will likely not shift around too greatly following its ban - we might see some stuff like Weavile drop Ice Shard more frequently now, other guys like Pecharunt or Garg run less Tera Fairy, etc.
That said... is giving bulkier styles more breathing room desirable when their winrate across many of their key mons like Gliscor, Clefable, Garg, Corv, etc. all already have win-rates above 60% even in a moon meta (where as moon itself was around 50%)? On the flipside, does Moon's departure actually improve bulkier teams when the eyeball list of threats that get more common with its departure are mons like Samurott-H, Ogerpon-W, Garchomp, Darkrai, and a few others, all of which are potent breakers in their own right, while getting more chances to batter the opponent? It’s probably impossible to tell at this time, so I look forward to seeing how the metagame will shake up after this ban - if it shakes up at all.
Does anyone have bulky teams like this? I find a lot of people talk about them but I never see them on the ladder and they feel very difficult to build properly.
Huh? Lu still throws out unblockable chip with Ruination and can phase with whirlwind. With smart play it’s not impossible to get up hazards vs Corv teams. It definitely is not 5v6.
Ting-Lu's Ruination, despite being only 16pp, is still effective at using up Corv's Roost PP. Also, if you run RestTalk instead of hazards, you get even more pp due to Sleep Talk. You can even just sleep through Rest to avoid using PP.
Ting Lu for me is very overrated Mon. Even if I maybe am wrong on that statement, it does good things in preventing Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Darkrai and several other Mons in running over the Tier. The lack of recovery moves outside of Rest really limits Ting Lu and its nowhere near to be broken or unhealthy.
Also, unless Ting Lu is fast Taunt (making it frailer) or runs Gholdengo, using Ting Lu vs Defog Corviknight is playing with 5 Mons. This alone should prevent discussion about Ting Lu suspect.
Ting Lu isn't broken or unhealthy but it's probably the best mon in the tier rn; this thing takes just over half from waterpon cudgel and softchecks over half of the tier, as a defensive piece/progress maker it's just absolutely insane. Sure it can't recover, but lefties is really good on it anyways/its great with removal, but its just so insanely fat that it barely matters when it can just spike permanently on the other team or spam ruination/ww + click eq
Also corv still hates ruination + you can just pair it with ghold if you want to guarantee no defog at that point, corv defogs on almost every spiker in the tier anyways rn
Similarly to Crown, Moon threatened it hard and could turn it into fodder with Tera Fairy. Unlike Crown though, Latios has the potential of being OU. Utterly destroys Balance with CM + Recover while providing utility as a Gliscor/Kyurem check with Tera Steel.
This is a crazy take that I hope comes true. It has been way too long since Latios has gotten its chance to shine. Still the Iron Crown slander is definitely not appreciated lol.
Thinking about it, I think there may be an argument to be made about ting-lu being banworthy.
It may not be the most aggressive pokemon offensively, but it gets hazards up like nobodys business, and gets free progress due to its insane bulk + ruination and stuff like whirlwind and earthquake to chip things and has some scary bulk to pull it off that hamurott wishes it had (No shade to hamurott mon is goated but hamurott isn't ting lu.) Yeah ting-lu may not stick out as broken, but I think the question is with it is if it too good of an enabler and is it healthy? And I think there may be an argument to call it banworthy, as it definitely isn't the most healthy thing in the world with how it makes progress so easily.
Granted saying ting lu is more broken than kyurem is absolutely false, but maybe someday it would be a good idea to give ting lu the boot because it definitely enables a lot of controversial pokemon potentially a bit too well and the lack of good options to deal with it besides like the already likely broken kyurem and lack of defoggers (I miss defog torn so much) that deal with it isn't helping things. And granted this isn't the easiest argument to make but it definitely is an argument that can be made.
I...don't think Ting Lu is broken? It definitely does a lot of things without fear of dying and it is safe into way more of the tier than is probably necessary but...idk. The biggest weakness Ting Lu has is that it lacks recovery (besides rest but that probably isn't worth it) which means unlike Gliscor it does die eventually (well Gliscor dies too but that isn't the point). It also doesn't have much set variety as it needs moves like ruination and whirlwind in order to wall properly. I personally don't ever see Ting Lu getting banned unless both Zamazenta and Ogerpon Wellspring get banned (which they won't) as both slam it hard.
Garchomp @ Life Orb
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 208 Atk / 4 SpD / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Swords Dance
This set enables a bunch of physical threats like Zama/Gambit/Dnite. An SD-boosted Outrage or EQ OHKOs every physical wall in the format minus Corv/Skarm/Zama and Dozo.
One set I've been trying is Specs, which I know sounds crazy, but in a meta with Corv, Gliscor, and Great Tusk everywhere, I feel like it trades decently well whenever I use it. It feels like using Dragapult Jr., but I like the surprise factor, and the coverage is solid. I run Draco/Earth Power/Flamethrower/Power Gem with Tera Ghost.
In addition, I have some thoughts about . ID/Body Press/Brave Bird sets have seen lots of usage in tournaments. As someone who loves to experiment with Corviknight sets, one option that I think should be considered is running ID/Body Press/Hurricane. Yes, its special attack is weaker. The upside is that you have a better matchup into Zamazenta, and you can hax physical setup sweepers. It's also nice to be less affected by Wisp and Intimidate.
Ting Lu for me is very overrated Mon. Even if I maybe am wrong on that statement, it does good things in preventing Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Darkrai and several other Mons in running over the Tier. The lack of recovery moves outside of Rest really limits Ting Lu and its nowhere near to be broken or unhealthy.
Also, unless Ting Lu is fast Taunt (making it frailer) or runs Gholdengo, using Ting Lu vs Defog Corviknight is playing with 5 Mons. This alone should prevent discussion about Ting Lu suspect.
i might just be too offense-brained but i've never felt the urge to use ting-lu when hamurott is right there in the teambuilder. Even on my bulkier teams I can still sneak in hamu a second or possibly third time to stack spikes, and while ting-lu can do the same thing with less meandering around the green button hamu has the advantage of being faster than most bulky mons (notably tusk) and being able to chunk for solid damage while setting spikes (considering everything not a resist (and even some less bulky resists) are gonna be taking like 30-50% from ceaseless). Meanwhile ting-lu feels way more passive and slow and kinda sluggish to use because you need a move to set spikes and then a second move to deal damage and (shocker) you can't use 2 moves in 1 turn. Seeing as they both kinda invite in (and lose to) the same things i'm not worried as much about matchups and would honestly rather just use the fast one.
Hamu also has flip turn which is neat ig. Snubs tusk/gliscor/treads when they poke their little heads out to spin away so you can slink behind the cheese stick. Meanwhile ting-lu is sitting around with naught but a big defense stat and a better super fang (whirlwind too).
Ting-lu definitely has its merits but the way it plays just rubs me the wrong way for some reason and i just don't like it, meanwhile hamu is better (for me) with more set variety and some fun tech here and there.
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Saw latios in the thread and it got me thinking about why latios is typically used on bulkier teams while latias is used more on offensive teams (especially in this generation). My best guess is probably that bulky teams appreciate latios's better offensive stats as a wallbreaker while fast pivots help it stay alive by letting one of the teams walls sponge incoming hits while latias can snowball with CM+SP+other stuff and we all know how much HO players love throwing out a setup sweeper at the perfect time and sniping 3 of your pokemon with the most absurd coverage you've ever seen.
Saw latios in the thread and it got me thinking about why latios is typically used on bulkier teams while latias is used more on offensive teams (especially in this generation). My best guess is probably that bulky teams appreciate latios's better offensive stats as a wallbreaker while fast pivots help it stay alive by letting one of the teams walls sponge incoming hits while latias can snowball with CM+SP+other stuff and we all know how much HO players love throwing out a setup sweeper at the perfect time and sniping 3 of your pokemon with the most absurd coverage you've ever seen.
This video by Parasitoid Pod answers the question to a t. But yes, you got the right idea. Latios is leaning into a sweeper with Calm Mind and Psychic Noise while Latias is an Agility+Calm Mind sweeper with Stored Power.
I...don't think Ting Lu is broken? It definitely does a lot of things without fear of dying and it is safe into way more of the tier than is probably necessary but...idk. The biggest weakness Ting Lu has is that it lacks recovery (besides rest but that probably isn't worth it) which means unlike Gliscor it does die eventually (well Gliscor dies too but that isn't the point). It also doesn't have much set variety as it needs moves like ruination and whirlwind in order to wall properly. I personally don't ever see Ting Lu getting banned unless both Zamazenta and Ogerpon Wellspring get banned (which they won't) as both slam it hard.
Ting-lu isn't broken but a lot of these things aren't true, Rest is actually a good move on it on stall and fat balance teams that appreciate Ting-Lu being able to go back to full, Ruination and Whirlwind aren't mandatory either with some teams having double hazards, taunt, rest, payback, and protect over one of both of them.
Ting-lu isn't broken but a lot of these things aren't true, Rest is actually a good move on it on stall and fat balance teams that appreciate Ting-Lu being able to go back to full, Ruination and Whirlwind aren't mandatory either with some teams having double hazards, taunt, rest, payback, and protect over one of both of them.
And with respect, what would it do? It's been underperforming for months now (and even calling it underperforming feels generous honestly) and there isn't anything it offers that teams need. Rilla isn't really cheese, it's just fallen way off and I don't see what anyone could do to make it worth using again. It doesn't even really do well into Gliscor teams which again, just protect scout it if necessary but also just outlast it really easily. Its checks are all staples of the tier and teams are naturally well prepared to deny it at every turn. Running a grass on bulky teams that doesn't check Wellspring is incredibly unwise too.
My conversations with Moyashi around rillaboom had me thinking. What could it do? Aside from the basic things we know it can do, here's something interesting I came up with.
@ Metal Coat
Level: 100
Jolly Nature
Tera Type: Steel
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
- Earthquake/ High horsepower
- Ice Spinner
- Knock Off
- Steel Roller
Ev spread out speeds jolly chomp and the rest into spdef incase you want to switch into raging bolt.
252 Atk Metal Coat Iron Treads Steel Roller vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 181-214 (48.7 - 57.6%)
252 Atk Metal Coat Iron Treads Steel Roller vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 250-295 (88.9 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Metal Coat Iron Treads Steel Roller vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Primarina: 295-348 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Metal Coat Iron Treads Steel Roller vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 189-223 (36.7 - 43.3%) --
Obviously this doesn't require rillaboom specifically, you could use misty terrain but I think magnet pull magnezone completes this core pretty well, removing corviknight and skarmory, and grassy terrain supports both by mitigating earthquake damage. I think iron treads does face an issue where it can be too weak to pressure some setup Pokemon, or faces difficulty into common hazard setters. Steel roller is an extremely underutilized move that can chunk many unsuspecting Pokemon for major damage. Not sure why they killed its distribution but it's an iron treads signature move in Gen 9.
Choice band is a no go here obviously steel roller is a 1 use move so I picked metal coat but life orb may work too if you can manage the recoil. I'll be cooking up some more heat sets as I figure out what other roles rillaboom can supplement.
Here's a thought: give up up choice band, give up grassy glide, give up tera grass, give up speed. Now we're talking, you've got a somewhat bulky mon that can pivot on a few common mons like glisc garg and ting lu.
While the rise of stuff like pecha, corv, dnite and moltres has proven harmful to rillaboom, none of these mons want to take a knock. You just need to be able to pressure whatever you switch into and now that you're not choice locked you dont fear protect scout. In fact, by accepting the loss of grassy glide or uturn, you are now free to run SD for even more pressure!
Now that knocking the birds is a realistic proposition, you make sure rocks will actually damage them by pairing it with a gargastacl.
Next you put on either tera fire tera blast to destroy your enemies, especially corv molt and pult, or tera poison for the better defensive utility and to setup on pecharunt.
Pair that with something offensively redundant
that will appreciate damage to or removal of these defensive threats.
Now I need to put some more practice into this theory, but that seems to me like an OK approach to an otherwise sub par mon, I think that's what rillaboom could do.
Here's a thought: give up up choice band, give up grassy glide, give up tera grass, give up speed. Now we're talking, you've got a somewhat bulky mon that can pivot on a few common mons like glisc garg and ting lu.
While the rise of stuff like pecha, corv, dnite and moltres has proven harmful to rillaboom, none of these mons want to take a knock. You just need to be able to pressure whatever you switch into and now that you're not choice locked you dont fear protect scout. In fact, by accepting the loss of grassy glide or uturn, you are now free to run SD for even more pressure!
Now that knocking the birds is a realistic proposition, you make sure rocks will actually damage them by pairing it with a gargastacl.
Next you put on either tera fire tera blast to destroy your enemies, especially corv molt and pult, or tera poison for the better defensive utility and to setup on pecharunt.
Pair that with something offensively redundant
that will appreciate damage to or removal of these defensive threats.
Now I need to put some more practice into this theory, but that seems to me like an OK approach to an otherwise sub par mon, I think that's what rillaboom could do.
The sole reason Rillaboom is worth using in OU (or UU for that matter) is Grassy Glide. It’s simply not something you can ever drop on it. Band is also not negotiable on Rilla either as it’s much, much too weak without the boost and lose whatever potential threat (not that it has one these days) it has. Also Pecha and Corv don’t really hate knock, the latter especially.
As for SD, especially with no grassy glide this set is not it. It’s not good anyways but dropping grassy glide just makes it really bad. At that point you just run SD Ogerpon of any form (but especially Wellspring). Nothing about a Glideless SD set is worth using over better physical grasses.
BOs nicely and pairs well with mons like 
or 
set I've been trying is Specs, which I know sounds crazy, but in a meta with Corv, Gliscor, and Great Tusk everywhere, I feel like it trades decently well whenever I use it. It feels like using Dragapult Jr., but I like the surprise factor, and the coverage is solid. I run Draco/Earth Power/Flamethrower/Power Gem with Tera Ghost.
. ID/Body Press/Brave Bird sets have seen lots of usage in tournaments. As someone who loves to experiment with Corviknight sets, one option that I think should be considered is running ID/Body Press/Hurricane. Yes, its special attack is weaker. The upside is that you have a better matchup into Zamazenta, and you can hax physical setup sweepers. It's also nice to be less affected by Wisp and Intimidate.
@ Metal Coat