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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 ( NEW SURVEY UP, POST 20,700 )

Kyurem seems to land the freezes more often simply because it has two moves with a chance to freeze instead of one, one for damage and one for bulky Waters. There aren't many Pokémon with 10% secondary effect moves that can freely click their STAB, and even resisted hits still allow for progress in the match, unless you're playing against Heatran

When I came back after a hiatus, I honestly expected to see it at least resuspected
More than this, it gets such amounts of chances simply because of how absurdly bulky it is, courtesy of its boxart legendary BST. this amount of bulk, in tandem with a solid-enough speed tier and high offensive power (despite the lack of an offensive ability) is that often places the opponent in the back foot and forces them to risk freeze as many times as needed to force out/kill the mon. But yeah its level of bulk is so insane in tandem with its other aforementioned traits, that it often gets away with various exchanges/trades in spite of its infamously bad ice typing (even fully invested 90-100 bp stab moves off of 120+ attacking stats often don't ohko from full, for instance), hazards weakness notwithstanding. It's further exacerbated by its sub/protect set which is rather hard for weaker attacks to break the sub, letting it actually make use of the otherwise-unnnotable pressure ability to really drain moves like cc/stone edge out of pp super fast, especially if it gets the sub/protect turns right. This isn't even mentioning its ability to tera and make said "bad" typing irrelevant in the first place.

Now, is the mon without flaws? Not really, it can often feel like a tera hog especially depending on the set, and said hazard weakness can sting without proper management, yet in spite of these flaws, potential 4mms for both moves and evs/choice of tera, and a lack of a real ability for the most part, its high and well rounded stats often let it get by anyway, especially as it wields one of the already-best stab options in the game anyway...which also has a chance to add further rng into the game (its moves could freeze at any moment, and from there a frozen victim could either thaw out instantly and pretend nothing happened, or remain frozen forever and become the biggest setup fodder ever).

It's for these reasons that I was -and still am- upset at the vote result being so close to us being freed from this fat demon. Especially since the support for kicking it out at long last from here seems so mid by this point. I do still consider it highly problematic, for all the aforementioned reasons and more.

Before I'm hit with the "Hoopa U/Zamazenta have similarly high bst yet they're fine!!" statement: Hoopa's typing is obviously much worse than Kyurem's, and its stats are distributed in such a way that it's not really overbearing; the combination of middling hp/def/speed really holds it back from brokenness (not to mention it's hindered by a psychic typing and essentially no ability, which have managed to even knock down Deo S in here), and idt anyone here would dispute that. As for Zamazenta....I'm gonna be honest, most of what I stated about Kyurem do apply to Zama as well to a T; the main difference is that Zama has fewer weaknesses but can only attack from 1 side of the spectrum and suffers from anti-contact measures. Most of its sets are -fine- but its iron defense body press set (ESPECIALLY when backed up by sub+the right tera type) is a disgusting fish that can just autowin with minimal conditions met, and the meta would indeed be better off without it imo. Particularly since said set, with the right filler move, absurd bulk (especially backed up by the right tera type) and even crunch defense drops (even vs tera ghost stuff) can BS its way past most of its checks except for stuff like, haze toxapex or unaware mons.
 
Before I'm hit with the "Hoopa U/Zamazenta have similarly high bst yet they're fine!!" statement: Hoopa's typing is obviously much worse than Kyurem's, and its stats are distributed in such a way that it's not really overbearing; the combination of middling hp/def/speed really holds it back from brokenness (not to mention it's hindered by a psychic typing and essentially no ability, which have managed to even knock down Deo S in here), and idt anyone here would dispute that. As for Zamazenta....I'm gonna be honest, most of what I stated about Kyurem do apply to Zama as well to a T; the main difference is that Zama has fewer weaknesses but can only attack from 1 side of the spectrum and suffers from anti-contact measures. Most of its sets are -fine- but its iron defense body press set (ESPECIALLY when backed up by sub+the right tera type) is a disgusting fish that can just autowin with minimal conditions met, and the meta would indeed be better off without it imo. Particularly since said set, with the right filler move, absurd bulk (especially backed up by the right tera type) and even crunch defense drops (even vs tera ghost stuff) can BS its way past most of its checks except for stuff like, haze toxapex or unaware mons.
we should also note that hoopa-u, although bad by the traditional definition, is still capable of being absurdly dangerous despite its weak points and would probably be ubers if it had any amount of splashability. a consistent hoopa-u presence in the tier would likely invalidate most of the meta's bulky teams and make the entire playstyle of stall outright unviable, kind of like annihilape did in early svou. the stall matchup against this mon is nearly unwinnable and that's not an exaggeration

about zama, i honestly still kind of disagree with the decision to drop it. even though it's turned out to be a strong balancing force and a pillar of a healthy meta (at least to the extent that the current form of svou can be "healthy"), and i'm against a ban of it (at least without several other bans preceding that) because it would destabilize the tier beyond current policy's ability to fix, i think my ideal form of svou would not contain it

so yeah, i agree, even the so-called exceptions to the box-legendary bst rule are not really exceptions
 
about zama, i honestly still kind of disagree with the decision to drop it. even though it's turned out to be a strong balancing force and a pillar of a healthy meta (at least to the extent that the current form of svou can be "healthy"), and i'm against a ban of it (at least without several other bans preceding that) because it would destabilize the tier beyond current policy's ability to fix, i think my ideal form of svou would not contain it
Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.
 
Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.
My ideal form of SV OU is one where offensive Pokémon within reason, like Volc and Dragonite and Baxcalibur and Kingambit and such, are free to be in OU without fear of reprisal. I do agree that Legendaries that would truly make the meta about them, like Groudon and Zygarde-Complete and Mewtwo, are no good for such a meta, and as such there should be some limit to the power of a Pokémon. I just think its too low for SV OU currently, that's all.
 
I would rather have more pokemon than game mechanics personally. It does feel like every match has some bullshit you can't counterplay in the moment.. you can retrospectively go over a vod but its just not enjoyable when scouting feels the same as throwing some games. Its why i didnt bother to vote anything bannable cause at this point the pokemon themselves are just a cosmetic to the mechanic that makes them feel very cheap. Early SV I think most of the obvious numbers-based problems like chi-yu being a special fire dracovish were weeded out but then it was pokemon that were symptoms not solutions by removing.

It really does feel like as more pokemon came out, it became more important for dragonite/volcarona/roaring moon/kingambit etc to add another tera type to their 'tera pool' which just made them more unpredictable and bullshit to play against. Tera blast would nerf what they swing back with but even defensively used it feels like gambling whether or not you want to stay in and try to take it out with a neutral/SE hit or leave to avoid a setup/sac.

I also want to bring up sleep cause frankly it does feel lame looking at pokemon that I used to run sleep powder on or spore on... and then realize they're completely hot garbage without it, yes I was that psycho running venomoth or vivillon in ou on occasion. I fully understand why we shifted on sleep policies but there had to have been a better way than banning sleep as a whole... you could've easily implemented a check where pressing the sleep move button when the opponent already has a sleeping pokemon inflicted by you was the equivalent of pressing the forfeit button (perfectly replicatable on card where the opponent can just quit and say "nah i won that game") , or even ask the opponent if they would like to close the match and take the W rather than play it out since the rule was broken. Looking to the future isn't allowed but it does make me think about champions with mega venasaur, victreebel, possibly malamar, etc and feel concerned just how much worse these are for the same of the sleep clause policy shift that was running over 10+ years.
 
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I want to discuss Terapagos. I've read the rules and know I'm probably crossing most of them but it's stupid that because :terapagos-Stellar:'s crimes a Pokemon that has proven to be healthy in natdex where it's the same is banned. If mega Rayquaza was both the first Pokemon banned from ubers and allowed regular Rayquaza to not be banned than genuinely why was :Terapagos-Terastal: banned?
 
Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.
 
Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.
Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.
Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.
And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item :Salamencite: only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.
And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for :terapagos-Stellar:'s crimes
 
Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.
my ideal form of svou would have kingambit, waterpon, gholdengo, kyurem, dragonite, and zamazenta gone, and terapagos unbanned and claused to be unable to tera. these are just the initial steps i'd take, then we'd have to take a long while for the meta to settle and see if anything else ends up problematic. though honestly i doubt anything will

i could go either way on tera blast, but if it were banned my ideal form of svou would only include dropping regieleki and not banning dragonite; nothing else would change. i really don't think this would be impossible to achieve if the community didn't have such a massive case of stockholm syndrome about the ghold/zama/gambit trio
 
my ideal form of svou would have kingambit, waterpon, gholdengo, kyurem, dragonite, and zamazenta gone, and terapagos unbanned and claused to be unable to tera. i could go either way on tera blast, but if it were banned my ideal form of svou would only include dropping regieleki and not banning dragonite; nothing else would change. i really don't think this would be impossible to achieve if the community didn't have such a massive case of stockholm syndrome about the ghold/zama/gambit trio
Interesting answer. Personally my ideal form of SV OU would probably have Terapagos (Stellar) unbanned, maybe sleep back with a Darkrai ban, and in the event of a tera blast ban (which I can also go either way on) a Regieleki and Volcarona unban.
 
I fully understand why we shifted on sleep policies but there had to have been a better way than banning sleep as a whole... you could've easily implemented a check where pressing the sleep move button when the opponent already has a sleeping pokemon inflicted by you was the equivalent of pressing the forfeit button (perfectly replicatable on card where the opponent can just quit and say "nah i won that game") , or even ask the opponent if they would like to close the match and take the W rather than play it out since the rule was broken.
that was the original sleep clause. back in the ancient days before the mod was implemented, putting an opponent to sleep when there was already a sleeping (non-resting) mon on the other side of the field would result in an automatic loss. this was the standard because cartridge play was fairly common at the time as well. people hated it so much that they ultimately decided the mod would be better
 
Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.
Banned: Kyurem, Gambit, Ghold, Woger, hypnosis.
Unbanned: Regieleki, Terapagos medium sized, Sleep Clause reimplemented, Spore, Yawn.
About Tera Blast: I hate what everyone hates but I really enjoy the presence of mons such as tblast ghost pult and tblast flying dragonite. And so I'd test out making pokemon only able to use tblast from a type they already had to preserve such sets.
 
Terapagos Tera ban may avoid the downside of a usual complex ban. This is because we can argue that Terapagos is special as it is Tera-locked and has a broken form-change gimmick tied to it, meaning it’s different from say banning Tera normal on Dragonite, some random gen 1 mon.

However, Ogerpon also exists and no one will call Teal or Cornerstone broken so idk.

Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.

Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.

And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item :Salamencite: only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.

And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for :terapagos-Stellar:'s crimes.

Ive reupload this because I've spent alot of energy on this and no one is responding. And there isn't any rule anout reuploading
 
Interesting answer. Personally my ideal form of SV OU would probably have Terapagos (Stellar) unbanned, maybe sleep back with a Darkrai ban, and in the event of a tera blast ban (which I can also go either way on) a Regieleki and Volcarona unban.
I don't get why we want sleep in any form, what positives does it bring to the game. And banning rai is like why, it feels like a good addition to the tier from what I've seen.
 
Well. Firstly, the Ogerpon tera forms are more like modifiers and are part of the reason hearthflame is banned and people (including me) want to ban wellspring.

Secondly, ogerpon's tera form make it better at what it already does. Terapagos uses tera to become a completely different beast. From a bulky normal spinner with coverage to a insanely bulky unstoppable sweeper that can't be stop with type metchups, so they do completely different things with their tera forms.

And finally, for why I do think that doesn't count as a complex ban. It's a different form. Technically banning mega salamence was a complex ban because it's a ban of an item :Salamencite: only on a specific Pokemon. Of course that is a stupid argument because salamence actually uses Salamencite, but technically you could say that is the same to banning tera stellar and as such terapagos-Stellar only on terapagos. And I feel that while obviously not as stupid as the idea of banning regular salamence because it's mega was broken, it does feel kinda similar.

And that's why it's stupid terapagos got dragged to ubers for :terapagos-Stellar:'s crimes.

Ive reupload this because I've spent alot of energy on this and no one is responding. And there isn't any rule anout reuploading
This is a policy discussion, not relevant to the current metagame. As for why, there’s a whole Policy Review thread a year ago that’s you can find here. Drop the Terapagos and Sleep Clause convo, nether have substantial support nor are allowed in this thread.
 
My ideal Metagame (Unrealistic version).

Pokemon Bans: Gholdengo, Blaziken (reason for this one will be provided later), Cyclizar (same).

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger, Booster Energy.

Conditional Bans (if one happens, the other doesn,t have to):
A) Complex Ban of Stealth Rock + Spikes (Ceaseless Edge not included).
B) Knock Off Ban (Trick, Switcheroo, Thief and Covet still allowed).

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo, Giratina-A, Lugia, Zamazenta Crowned, Sneasler, Roaring Moon.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Moody, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, King's Rock/Razor Fang, Baton Pass (fully unrestricted), Last Respects, Shed Tail, Accupressure, OHKO moves.

Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.

My ideal Metagame (Realistic version).

Pokemon Bans: Waterpon and Gliscor.

Non Pokemon Bans:
Swagger.

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Baton Pass with Stats passing being banned.
 
My ideal Metagame (Unrealistic version).

Pokemon Bans: Gholdengo, Blaziken (reason for this one will be provided later), Cyclizar (same).

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger, Booster Energy.

Conditional Bans (if one happens, the other doesn,t have to):
A) Complex Ban of Stealth Rock + Spikes (Ceaseless Edge not included).
B) Knock Off Ban (Trick, Switcheroo, Thief and Covet still allowed).

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo, Giratina-A, Lugia, Zamazenta Crowned, Sneasler, Roaring Moon.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Moody, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, King's Rock/Razor Fang, Baton Pass (fully unrestricted), Last Respects, Shed Tail, Accupressure, OHKO moves.

Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.

My ideal Metagame (Realistic version).

Pokemon Bans: Waterpon and Gliscor.

Non Pokemon Bans: Swagger.

Pokemon Unbans: Solgaleo.

Non Pokemon Unbans: Baton Pass with Stats passing being banned.
....
the fact that i cannot tell if this is bait or not shows how absolute batshit insane the discussion around tiering changes for SV ou have become.


anyways MOVING ON to a more intresting discussion, how do we feel about Tyranitar, it feels like its been accumulating usage under the radar and now has a reasonable chance at returning to OU, i know this is most likely due to a team featuring Ttar becoming popular but is there any ohter intresting sets, sand also feels very strong in this meta, even whithout Exca.
 
Ok I have a good question. What is your ideal form of SV OU? This isn't meant in a negative way I am genuinely curious. In fact, I invite everyone to answer this question. The only thing I ask is no dropping ubers unless it is something within reason like dropping Volcarona after a tera blast ban.

I'll answer within the confines of what tiering leadership has deemed acceptable, meaning a Terastal ban, a Baton Pass unban, a Sleep Clause restoration, or disallowing ONLY Terapagos-Terastal from using a universal mechanic are off the table.

In my ideal metagame, the changes compared to current OU would be:

Non-Pokemon bans: Tera Blast (to reduce the volatility of OU. Tera is already hugely impactful, and giving mons powerful coverage they otherwise weren't meant to have is bad for the balance of the game)

Pokemon unbans: Regieleki (Would be RUBL or RU without Tera Blast), Volcarona (Tera Blast allowing it to snipe what would be counters was ridiculous), Espathra (Tera Blast letting it beat strong Steel-type attackers was the main reason it was banned), and Solgaleo

Pokemon bans: Gholdengo (Hate this mon so much for how it constricts building for bulkier archetypes. If Tera were banned, I'd be okay with Gholdengo in OU, but tiering administation has already shut down banning Tera, so that's not an option)

Roaring Moon I briefly considered for an unban without Tera Blast, but SV OU would still have a large number of threats, so from a teambuilding constraint perspective, I opted not to include it in my list of unbans. I wouldn't want Roaring Moon in SV OU unless Tera was outright banned, which is not happening.

I believe the format I described would be better than the current iteration of OU with Dragonite's wings being clipped, the return of a Volcarona with a much lower threat level overall, Kyurem becoming much less of a threat, and Solgaleo joining OU as an additional check to offense.
 
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If Dragonite were to ever get banned, would Salamence gain a niche in OU? It has been utterly outclassed by Dragonite since gen VI because multiscale + espeed has always been more useful for both defensive roles and sweeping.

And a random observation: I feel like a lot of teams are really well prepared for Kingambit and I have found that I often rely on it for its defensive profile more than late game sweeps these days, more often than not you just don't get a lot of chances to click SD.

I know that the reasoning so far has been that SD is undroppable because of random game ending potential (especially if you have preserved Tera), but I'm going to try testing out 4 attack gambit (probably just lefties/balloon to bluff a normal set, but I might try AV like natdex to better take on ghold/dragapult, though that set on the face of it seems terrible without pursuit) for wallbreaking early game to see if that can enable other stuff to clean up more easily. Generally speaking if you see kowtow cleave + iron head, you tend to assume that gambit doesn't have low kick, letting it lure in and take out an opposing gambit out with low kick for example. 4 attack gambit wouldn't even need supreme overlord.
 
Clause Change: Species Clause becomes Forme Clause, meaning that you can use for example Kanto Zapdos and Galar Zapdos on the same team.
i see this come up every so often and i'm still confused by why exactly someone would want this. aside from the fact that it's unworkable for reasons that have been gone over multiple times, what's the actual benefit? the vast majority of the mon combinations people would try to run under this are just not good. either one of the forms is mid/bad, or they have a big role overlap, or they stack weaknesses that are bad to stack, or they don't synergize well for some other reason. how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way
 
how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way
"How does (unban) help the meta" is stupid imo as it presumes a need for something to be beneficial to the metagame for it to be in OU, when all that matters in OU is whether or not something is broken/uncompetitive/sometimes both.

"How is (unban) not broken as previously assumed" is perhaps the only question we should ask, with good faith and serious suspicion given, since it still leaves fault upon the one bringing up the unban while not deluding ourselves on what OU is meant to be, aka the collection of the most used, and not overwhelmingly broken or uncompetitive pokemon and/or strategies.


But to answer your question, I think it would simply allow for more variety. Whether or not it goes anywhere should be up to the playerbase, even if I agree with you that it won't amount to much of anything. Not only would no super serious player bring two Moltres, but I think they'd be dealt with in the same fashion anyways. Also, Goltres would probably be better off as a Mandibuzz, if a Dark/Flying mon is that necessary, right?
 
i see this come up every so often and i'm still confused by why exactly someone would want this. aside from the fact that it's unworkable for reasons that have been gone over multiple times, what's the actual benefit? the vast majority of the mon combinations people would try to run under this are just not good. either one of the forms is mid/bad, or they have a big role overlap, or they stack weaknesses that are bad to stack, or they don't synergize well for some other reason. how would this actually help anything, or improve the meta in any way
Nah, if this goes through and proven not broken, we do not bother ourselves with questions with an obvious undertone like "what does it bring to the meta" and just unban it. This is because this question, despite not looking like it at first glance, is serving an obvious agenda for people who are looking to get longer games. It's similar to "just asking questions" imo.

Though as much as I am for unbans, Sneasler should absolutely stay banned. That thing is an RNG machine in the first place and that's before you throw in Grassy Seed sets.
 
With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?

:Deoxys-Speed:
I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.

:Ninetales-Alola:
Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP

:Zamazenta:
Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat

:Dragapult:
Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around
 
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Nah, if this goes through and proven not broken, we do not bother ourselves with questions with an obvious undertone like "what does it bring to the meta" and just unban it. This is because this question, despite not looking like it at first glance, is serving an obvious agenda for people who are looking to get longer games. It's similar to "just asking questions" imo.

Though as much as I am for unbans, Sneasler should absolutely stay banned. That thing is an RNG machine in the first place and that's before you throw in Grassy Seed sets.
The notions of different archetypes and the need for there to be some sort of "representation" among them is one of the biggest gaffs in recent generations in smogon formats. It starts with a preconceived notion of what the metagame "should" look like and works backwards without questioning why there's a belief that, say, reactive styles ought to exist at all in a format with easy 1.5x power boosts and a billion DD sweepers. Like...of course there are going to be two dozen bans if one starts with the notion that defensive "checks and counters" must exist for everything; I know there is a dominant view that favors smogon's invention of Stealth Rock Gaming and constantly switching around, but if this gets followed to an end, you wind up with de-powered regen slogfests like generation 8. Personally, I don't find that interesting and I think it smothers the possibility for novel gameplay to emerge out of the unique characteristics of each generation (to whatever destination that happens to lead). All that said, I am glad that Tera has remained a part of the generation 9 format; I have found it to be very unique and dynamic both in-game and in builder.

Like you said, I think the only question needs to be is "does counterplay to [some thing] exist?", without attaching all kinds of value judgements to the nature of the counteplay.
 
"How does (unban) help the meta" is stupid imo as it presumes a need for something to be beneficial to the metagame for it to be in OU, when all that matters in OU is whether or not something is broken/uncompetitive/sometimes both.
i agree with you on some level, but you also have to remember that an unban or clause change is a change in the status quo, the same way a ban is. if someone wants the status quo to change, they should provide some sort of reasoning as to why their new paradigm is better in a meaningful way, and nobody has done that for species clause. there was even an opportunity to demonstrate any possible benefits during the april fools' day event a while back where there was a "suspect ladder" without the clause, and nobody did that

but this is kind of irrelevant at this point, let's move to something more productive
With Sceens taking over as seen by Vert's incredible OLT run, and with uses from the likes of Ewin, Giannis, and ABR... Which screen setter do you prefer and with what set?

:Deoxys-Speed:
I very much prefer it, and the option to run hazards as last slot is great, as you do not need to put another mon like Iron Treads or Samurott-Hisui somewhat awkwardly. Psycho Boost is still great ofc, and I have also seen other options like Thunder Wave and Teleport.

:Ninetales-Alola:
Poor winrate but part of the earlier screens, around WCoP. With the option to run STAB moves, Veil, Encore, but also Snowscape and Roar. Blizzard is another option, as is running max SpA rather than HP

:Zamazenta:
Still very well disguised, and we have seen it do great while running a variety of moves such as Steel Beam, Roar, Heavy Slam, Close Combat

:Dragapult:
Dying down again after the initial boom during OLT, but still somewhat around
i've been finding the most success with atales recently, using a modified variation of that old heatranator dondozo veil team. i've also tried variants with confuse ray and body slam for potential rng cheese, and confuse ray in particular produced some interesting results (such as, at one point, winning a 1v1 vs gambit). i don't think these are necessarily good variants of atales, but they're very funny
 
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