Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING SURVEY UP]

[Magcargo]

As the Kyurem vote continues (and it’s close — remember to vote everyone who got reqs): the council is approaching a potentially unanimous consensus on a next suspect. We may proceed with the test without another survey, opting to push back the next survey a few weeks to give sufficient time between while not stalling the tiering process altogether.

I greatly appreciate the transparency given to the situation here, but I believe it would be in the council and playerbase's best interest to decide on what the most pressing issues are currently via a survey and acting from there. The playerbase has proven competent enough in judging what the primary issues in the metagame are & I do believe there is some debate on what the next most pressing issue after kyurem is, whether it be Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, or even Raging Bolt. Having a survey would give us empirical data on what the playerbase finds most problematic currently, which certainly has changed with SPL occurring.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

hopefully this new suspect is gouging fire but i wouldn't be surprised if archaludon is next on the chopping block. i don't see the latter being banworthy though, it's far too reliant on weather to do its thing unlike the aforementioned gouging fire, who is consistently a major threat on a game-to-game basis regardless of what playstyle it finds itself on

Honestly I feel the opposite way, first "amount of archetypes it's a problem on" isn't even really a factor in brokenness, we evaluate that on the most viable set; it's not like "set up rain for arch" is super niche or uncommon.

While I was initially suspicious of Gouging and think an eye should be kept on it, it doesn't rly feel like a priority to me anymore. Off sun it's pretty underwhelming so don't think this is a factor, and I don't think even with sun it's anywhere near arch's level of "stupidly fast strong and bulky and always gets free kills" the meme Dozo calcs are not real and sun is weak af as a playstyle in the rain hell tier, like possibly the most matchup fishy yet unreliable playstyle of all time. Being choice locked sucks for it and boxes it out of a ton of options and it's nothing special with booster (bad) or boots. Vs arch takes essentially guaranteed free kills before its eventual demise. Just because that demise eventually comes after it's cleaned out half a team doesn't mean it's a balanced mon

 

[Finchinator]

but I believe it would be in the council and playerbase's best interest to decide on what the most pressing issues are currently via a survey and acting from there.

Having a survey every two weeks is a bit much. They were always designed to be every 1-2 months. And this shouldn’t hold the process as a whole up when there is a strong consensus internally.

The playerbase has proven competent enough to judging what the primary issues in the metagame are & I do believe there is some debate on what the next most pressing issue after kyurem is, whether it be Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, or even Raging Bolt.

It’s none of these, and I feel you just disproved your own point a bit

 

[Finchinator]

just gonna drop this here

 

[Divine Retribution]

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just gonna drop this here

Iron Treads suspect????

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

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just gonna drop this here

pelipper's reign will come to an end soon, all hail politoed
EDIT: I cannot fucking believe I said "pelipper's reign" and didn't see the pun in front of my face until like 20 minutes later what the hell

 

[MetaSkipper]

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just gonna drop this here

Y'all are thinking too small. Clearly this means we're getting a suspect on the Archaludon-Pelipper combo.

 

[viivian]

sun is weak af as a playstyle in the rain hell tier, like possibly the most matchup fishy yet unreliable playstyle of all time.

is this bait? like obviously sun is not as consistent of a playstyle as rain but calling it bad and unreliable is completely untrue

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

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just gonna drop this here

>pairings
>of 3
wait a minute

 

[senorlopez]

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just gonna drop this here

I'm guessing this is relating to Archuladon, but I feel like this just presents an archetype (or team) as strong rather than a specific mon.

 

[Conflux123]

Iron Treads suspect????

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but hell no. Iron Treads is good for the meta right now as a niche spinner and alternative to Tusk depending on your team.

 

[Finchinator]

I'm guessing this is relating to Archuladon, but I feel like this just presents an archetype (or team) as strong rather than a specific mon.

I think Archaludon stands out very blatantly in the context of Rain teams. It snowballs out of control to a crazy extent due to great strength and durability without many checks/counters.

 

[Conflux123]

Honestly I feel the opposite way, first "amount of archetypes it's a problem on" isn't even really a factor in brokenness, we evaluate that on the most viable set; it's not like "set up rain for arch" is super niche or uncommon.

While I was initially suspicious of Gouging and think an eye should be kept on it, it doesn't rly feel like a priority to me anymore. Off sun it's pretty underwhelming so don't think this is a factor, and I don't think even with sun it's anywhere near arch's level of "stupidly fast strong and bulky and always gets free kills" the meme Dozo calcs are not real and sun is weak af as a playstyle in the rain hell tier, like possibly the most matchup fishy yet unreliable playstyle of all time. Being choice locked sucks for it and boxes it out of a ton of options and it's nothing special with booster (bad) or boots. Vs arch takes essentially guaranteed free kills before its eventual demise. Just because that demise eventually comes after it's cleaned out half a team doesn't mean it's a balanced mon

First of all, sun can definitely win games by having breakers that are practically unwallable like hyfro steam specs wake and CB Gouging Fire. Second of all, as long as the protosynthesis boost is speed, sun can eventually break archaludon. It'll be basically a one-for-one trade. And finally, rain has choiced breakers as well AND being even more fragile because its only two good defensive mons are Pelipper (you don't want it taking too much chip) and Archaludon (which will get worn over time and doesn't even cover everything) so idk what you're saying.

 

[senorlopez]

I think Archaludon stands out very blatantly in the context of Rain teams. It snowballs out of control to a crazy extent due to great strength and durability without many checks/counters.

Don't disagree. Just what you posted, to me, inferred rain was more the problem rather than the mon - was thinking maybe damp rock but seemed unlikely given your pretext.

 

[1LDK]

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just gonna drop this here

If it is rain in general, heres a couple songs

Cold blue rain by Milky Chance
Catch the rainbow by Rainbow
Ain't no sunshine by Bill withers

if it is Arch, I would suggest

Collective Consciousness (I know it's basically a meme, but it's a fucking metal gear, come on)
The Palace of Versailles by Al Stewart
Deconstruction by witchcraft

I kinda wanna do a tier lists of the suspect tests based on the songs, but most of them are on between "It's alright" and "complete shit"

 

[Heatranator]

If it is rain in general, heres a couple songs

Cold blue rain by Milky Chance
Catch the rainbow by Rainbow
Ain't no sunshine by Bill withers

if it is Arch, I would suggest

Collective Consciousness (I know it's basically a meme, but it's a fucking metal gear, come on)
The Palace of Versailles by Al Stewart
Deconstruction by witchcraft

I kinda wanna do a tier lists of the suspect tests based on the songs, but most of them are on between "It's alright" and "complete shit"

London bridge is falling down would be an amazing song if it was just arch.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

honestly i'm curious as to what the meta would be like if we just banned drought and drizzle. like, i know it's not gonna happen, obviously, but sun and rain are bullshit strong archetypes that are dictating the viability of virtually every mon in the tier and making this whole meta a series of matchup fishes, and it feels like it's a deeper problem than individual mons. just arch going wouldn't stop the weather wars

 

[Heatranator]

honestly i'm curious as to what the meta would be like if we just banned drought and drizzle. like, i know it's not gonna happen, obviously, but sun and rain are bullshit strong archetypes that make this whole meta a series of matchup fishes, and it feels like it's a deeper problem than individual mons

That's honestly why I want damp rock and heat rock banned, because 7 turns of amazing mons is going to be broken. When people complain about arch I'm like, "Barra has insane damage and is hard to outspeed, so why isn't that the problem." It's both of the mons that are a problem, and getting rid of the rocks would mean they would be manageable as well as help with gouging.

 

[RyukTheDarkrai]

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just gonna drop this here

what Finch doesn't show you is the team below the fourth slot, goodbye raging neck

 

[MetaSkipper]

honestly i'm curious as to what the meta would be like if we just banned drought and drizzle. like, i know it's not gonna happen, obviously, but sun and rain are bullshit strong archetypes that are dictating the viability of virtually every mon in the tier and making this whole meta a series of matchup fishes, and it feels like it's a deeper problem than individual mons

Do you think people would still manually set weather? Those payoffs are still huge, and it's not like Tyranitar or Hippowdon are meta staples to turn it off. I guess Slowing-G and Ninetales-A are relatively common, though.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

That's honestly why I want damp rock and heat rock banned, because 7 turns of amazing mons is going to be broken. When people complain about arch I'm like, "Barra has insane damage and is hard to outspeed, so why isn't that the problem." It's both of the mons that are a problem, and getting rid of the rocks would mean they would be manageable as well as help with gouging.

i mean, this is just gen 5 the sequel (we even have sleep moves clause), so i figure that if we're trying to stop the weather wars we should just get rid of the weathers entirely and not repeat their catastrophic and somehow still ongoing mistake of bending over backwards to preserve them

 

[Heatranator]

i mean, this is just gen 5 the sequel, so i figure that if we're trying to stop the weather wars we should just get rid of the weathers entirely and not repeat their catastrophic and somehow still ongoing mistake of bending over backwards to preserve them

I would happily do that if we could, but I doubt that would happen because people are very anti-ban for playstyles. It's probably the best middle ground for everyone.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

honestly i'm curious as to what the meta would be like if we just banned drought and drizzle. like, i know it's not gonna happen, obviously, but sun and rain are bullshit strong archetypes that are dictating the viability of virtually every mon in the tier and making this whole meta a series of matchup fishes, and it feels like it's a deeper problem than individual mons. just arch going wouldn't stop the weather wars

I mean the playstyles won't go away sure but compare Rain in DLC1 vs Rain in DLC2. Drizzle wasn't broken then, what's different now? The answer of course is Archaludon and maybe Raging Bolt.

A few people replied to my other comment, I in fact never said sun was bad, but the absurd power of rain makes it very matchup fishy which inherently makes it less reliable. The fact that "gouging fire can in fact win games with choice band" does not a target of tiering action make

 

[KamenOH]

Think I could find a formulaic ass team and speed run reqs? I mean, a rain/snow Pel-Arch-Glow-Kyu team would probably do wonders. Slap on Kingambit and what, either Valiant or RMoon to just all around help out?

 

[YubelVT]

If it is rain in general, heres a couple songs

Cold blue rain by Milky Chance
Catch the rainbow by Rainbow
Ain't no sunshine by Bill withers

if it is Arch, I would suggest

Collective Consciousness (I know it's basically a meme, but it's a fucking metal gear, come on)
The Palace of Versailles by Al Stewart
Deconstruction by witchcraft

I kinda wanna do a tier lists of the suspect tests based on the songs, but most of them are on between "It's alright" and "complete shit"

May I add to this list for the arch suspect:

War Without Reason from the ULTRAKILL Violence Layer OST