Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

I'm not gonna post my numbers, because of the very reason I'm posting:

There is no fucking reason for you, or I, to try to measure these mons between 5 or 1. Straight up, just go 5 if you want it banned, 1 if you don't want it banned. I think a lot of people don't do this because it sounds intuitive to try to vote with some internal logic or whatever, but like, who fucking cares?At worst someone with access sees your survey result and says "That's dumb!" but you still maximized your influence on the result.

Statistically it still does not really matter, but why minimize the impact of your thoughts on the tier? If you truly could go either way, vote a 3. I don't think there is any reason to vote anything below a 5 if you want it banned, suspected, any action whatsoever. And I don't see a reason to vote a 2 or 4 ever in your entire life.

Stop minimizing your impact on the poll by sandbagging your actual opinion in order to seem more coherent. I voted 5 on every single Pokemon that I'd want a Suspect on, and a 1 otherwise, regardless of internal logic or what I think is a priority, because there is no reason to do that.
well, you're certainly not wrong, the optimal strategy is to vote 5 on anything you want action on and 1 on anything you don't because of the way measuring by averages works. i floated the idea before of ranking the mons against each other to minimize abuse of the survey like this, but the results would be a bit trickier to tally up that way and i don't particularly know how easy or hard this would be to pull off in the smogon survey format
 
I'm not gonna post my numbers, because of the very reason I'm posting:

There is no fucking reason for you, or I, to try to measure these mons between 5 or 1. Straight up, just go 5 if you want it banned, 1 if you don't want it banned. I think a lot of people don't do this because it sounds intuitive to try to vote with some internal logic or whatever, but like, who fucking cares?At worst someone with access sees your survey result and says "That's dumb!" but you still maximized your influence on the result.
Besides Competitveness and Enjoyment, I think we would be better served with just "Do you think such Pokémon/ mechanic/ item/ ability should be banned?" to all the others questions.

Report
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
gonna explain each of my responses to the survey. i'm (obviously) not a top player so do take this with a grain of salt

:gouging_fire: - 5

on release i thought gouging fire was completely fine but the more i use it, the more I realize just how absurd this thing actually is. its stat distribution is some of the nastiest shit i've seen, and it somehow has the perfect typing and movepool to take advantage of those stats. it's ridiculously strong and can easily stack damage multipliers to increase its damage output, on top of having one of the best offensive typings in the entire game and having earthquake to smash would-be checks such as defensive heatran. fire type w/ protosynthesis means it's an absolute menace in the sun, 2HKOing literally every pokemon in the metagame barring dondozo, who still has to stay healthy as to not get 2HKO'd by protosynthesis-boosted outrage. then you have the defensive DD sets which are capable of 1v1ing literally every single pokemon in the metagame barring skeledirge and heatran through sheer bulk. gouging fire far bulkier than standard defensive pokemon like clefable and corviknight, except it can leverage this bulk + breaking swipe to set up on pokemon who would otherwise beat it like dondozo. if a suspect test or quickban vote is imminent, i really hope it's focused on this piece of shit

:volcarona:/:roaring_moon:/:raging_bolt: - 4

raging bolt would most certainly be a 5 if it wasn't for its awkward speed tier but it more than makes up for it through sheer power and bulk, while still having strong priority to pick off faster threats. an unfortunate consequence of its relatively low speed stat is that it relies on thunderclap a lot and thus makes it susceptible to encore, not to mention its helplessness against excadrill, iron treads, offensive great tusk, landorus-T, etc. as a result. nonetheless, raging bolt is still extremely powerful and can easily force trades against faster pokemon thanks to its natural bulk, and can easily muscle past special walls like slowking-G and heatran after a few boosts. it's not as overbearing as gouging fire but i think it deserves a suspect test in the near future

i gave roaring a 4 since it can kinda pick and choose what it wants to instantly annihilate at team preview. standard DD + 3A sets completely destroy offensive teams lacking iron boulder whereas DD + taunt turns would-be checks like skarmory and dondozo into setup fodder. while it's not as overbearing as it was during DLC1 since the meta is a lot faster and priority is much more widespread now than it was before, i still think we should be wary of its presence in the tier going forward.

upon further reflection, i could've given volcarona a 3 instead of a 4 since it does genuinely provide valuable defensive utility for the tier. but as an offensive pokemon, tera (and tera blast by extension) makes volcarona extremely volatile to reliably deal with, especially for an already matchup-fishy pokemon. nothing has really changed in this regard ever since it was banned, and if anything, i'd say it's gotten better and more versatile since the pre-HOME meta. i think it's worth keeping an eye on

:gholdengo:/:kingambit:/:zamazenta: - 3

i think we should absolutely keep an eye on these pokemon as the meta progresses but as of right now these aren't major concerns. i don't have too much to say on gholdengo or kingambit but zamazenta is mostly here because ID + roar w/ hazard support lets zamazenta rapidly wear down most of its defensive checks and gives it a much easier time sweeping late-game. none of these warrant tiering action for the time being though, just something to keep in mind for the future

:garganacl: - 2/3

i honestly can't remember which option i chose when filling out the survey but it's still a pain in the ass to deal with for the same reasons as always. i only gave it a low score because i think we should probably wait for the meta to adapt to garganacl before taking any immediate action on it, but it's still something to be mindful of going forward. i don't have much to say on this one, it's moreso annoying than anything else

:ogerpon_wellspring: - 2

definitely my most controversial take it seems, but i'll stand by it until i'm proven wrong. it's much harder for stall and balance to account for ogerpon in the builder now than it was during DLC1, but i find that a lot of that is because we've gotten lots of new and returning pokemon that punish these teams for adapting to it. running tera grass/dragon on physical walls like dondozo and zapdos was a common method of dealing with it during the TM meta, but it's no longer a viable option now given the presence of pokemon like gouging fire in the current metagame. ideally, gouging fire (and potentially a few other pokemon) would recieve a suspect test first, and if ogerpon continues to be overwhelming then we take action against it immediately
 
Last edited:
Okay, time for my survey results.
Enjoyment: 6
Metagame is alright to play, but the strain of teambuilder definetely means that more niche options have to be considered very carefully. This definetely needs to be improved, but with bans it can be done.
Competitive: 7
Better than enjoyment because a lot of threats do need some amount of positioning, but it isn't good.
Tera: No and No
Bigger problems right now, we don't need to do anything with it as it is fine in this meta.
:gouging fire: 4 - My opinion has changed a bit on this and I think it is a bit more broken. DD sets are easy to handle as they are hazard weak and if they are forced out in any way, they are much weaker. My main issue with it is how it can brutalise stall easily, which would be my problem. If this goes, not going to complain, but there are bigger fish to fry.
:ogerpon-wellspring: 2 - Nope, this thing ain't broken guys. It's speed tier, hazard weakness and weakness to priority hold it back. Yes, it can be scary, but that's for anything at +2. I know they fill very different roles, but if kyurem wasn't banned because of its hazard weakness, then waterpon shouldn't either.
:roaring moon: 5 - This is the most bs mon right now. If it can get a dd off, which is easy for it to do with the amount of mons it threatens, then it is basically impossible to stop outside weavile priority and boulder, and boulder is bad otherwise. Get this out of the tier, it doesn't provide anything to it and is just another pain in the teambuilder.
:volcarona: 3 - I'm alright with this thing as while it can tera, it has to when it tries to sweep. The difference between this and moon is the speed tier as fast scarfers and booster mons outspeed it at +1. It also can struggle to take a hit sometimes. Maybe look at it down the line, but other things first please.
:raging bolt: 4 - This is gambit 2.0, it can use priority to outspeed faster mons and perform an easy late game sweep. Yes, it does have ground types it has to watch out for, but a simple tera and draco destroy most. Definetely needs to go, but a 4 since one other mon is more problematic and there is some level of counterplay.
:kingambit: 3 - The original setup sweeper that can cheese games, gambit is still imo a problem. But less so then before, and there are bigger fish to fry. I wouldn't mind seeing it gone in the future, but not right now.
:zamazenta: 1 - Lmao, no. This thing is great but not overpowered in the slightest. It has 4mss and is weak to special hits. Is countered decently well by ghost types despite crunch, and either is weak to hazards or is extremely chippable depending on its item.
:gholdengo: 3 - This score is moreso for the ability, I think on its own ghold is fine. However, getting more defog users I would be interested in, so we should consider it.
:garganacl: 1 -
View attachment 609445

Anything else: Kyurem should be looked at. I know I said waterpon shouldn't be banned if kyurem isn't, but kyurem has better defenses, more moveset variety and ability to tera out of its type.
Your other Waterpon post was ridiculous as well and you are simply not being honest about the way this Pokémon engages with the game around it - there is no priority weakness, there is no hazard weakness, there is no bad speed tier, and Tera actually does give Wellspring a great deal more defensive utility. The very best answers to Waterpon are Grassy Glide and ExtremeSpeed, this is the most legitimate counterplay despite Dragonite needing to be healthy to not die to Play Rough and Rillaboom having to sacrifice its choice band or AV to full health wellspring. Thunderclap is not a real answer because it is a 3HKO that hinges on Ogerpon not choosing to get free swords dances from you, the same goes for sucker punch, and hopefully it is not play rough if you are relying on thunderclap. Hazard weakness is not a real concern because what spike setter beats wellspring before it becomes an issue? Ogerpon can easily begin setting up (or, not even set up, just keep clicking cudgel) before spikes become a concern and it flattens Pokémon like Skarmory, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, etc - not only can wellspring easily switch into these spikes setters it also is a fantastic lead, forcing the opponent to play reactively before they've achieved meaningful earlygame objectives; although it's true that wellspring usually can't go on to sweep after boxing the opponent out of an early favorable position, by preventing hazards or forcing a risky switch its teammates can easily pick up where it leaves off. In short, in the games it does not win as a sweeper, it wins as a lead or early progress maker. You also mentioned a poor speed tier, to which I ask which Pokémon that are not a team's designated speed control outspeed ogerpon? Because at 110 speed the list is pretty much "none." Weavile and Ice Shard are decent answers... until it Terastalizes. Same goes for Kyurem! Btw "Kyurem wasn't banned because of its hazard weakness" is also straight cap, the best set was and is Heavy Duty Boots. Kyurem having "more moveset variety" is also not real, Ogerpon literally has every move it could possibly want between Encore, Spikes, Knock, Play Rough, Synthesis, U-Turn, SD, and the rare Trailblaze (you also in your last post said Ogerpon has no way to raise its speed which due to Trailblaze is just untrue.) I'm also curious how you could cite a weakness to priority moves and rate Wellspring a 2 and Roaring Moon a 5 when Roaring Moon unlike Wellspring has little to no value outside of serving as a wincon and due to the types Moon tends to Tera into it has even a larger issue with priority than Wellspring does, with Roaring Moon also being an extremely one and done Pokémon due to booster and Wellspring being able to come in a couple times and fire off fast strong Cudgels provided spikes are not up (rocks not being a real concern due to resistance.) Meowscarada is also not a real answer due to Meowscarada being an underwhelming and unfavorable Pokémon outside of the wellspring matchup.
 
Last edited:

veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Pre-Contributor
To be more specific on why I don't want restrictions on tera, might as well explain here.

All the restrictions are bad options. Here is a post on Tera Blast I made earlier because I don't feel like writing the same thing twice.

Stab Only Tera
This is by far the worst "restriction". It is a completely arbitrary nerf like every other restriction bar banning Blast, but it would also serve to make Tera very broken and uninteresting. It nerfs everything defensive and buffs offense, and turns Tera into literally just a free Life Orb boost to slap on a random mon instead of an actual nuanced and skill expressive mechanic.

Tera Captain
This is very similar in its extremely huge flaws to Stab Only, but it trades nerfing defense as much into introducing a ton of matchup fishing. Prevents use of Tera to respond to otherwise devastating Teras.

Tera Preview
This is by far the least bad restriction, and I'd prefer it over a ban, but Tera Preview is still very arbitrary and takes away many skillful elements of Tera like rewarding meta knowledge and careful midgrounds, while also revealing way too much info to the opponent based on the tera types alone, letting them strike where you can't defend completely risk free.
 
Your other Waterpon post was ridiculous as well and you are simply not being honest about the way this Pokémon engages with the game around it - there is no priority weakness, there is no hazard weakness, there is no bad speed tier, and Tera actually does give Wellspring a great deal more defensive utility. The very best answers to Waterpon are Grassy Glide and ExtremeSpeed, this is the most legitimate counterplay despite Dragonite needing to be healthy to not die to Play Rough and Rillaboom having to sacrifice its choice band or AV to full health wellspring. Thunderclap is not a real answer because it is a 3HKO that hinges on Ogerpon not choosing to get free swords dances from you, the same goes for sucker punch, and hopefully it is not play rough if you are relying on thunderclap. Hazard weakness is not a real concern because what spike setter beats wellspring before it becomes an issue? Ogerpon can easily begin setting up (or, not even set up, just keep clicking cudgel) before spikes become a concern and it flattens Pokémon like Skarmory, Gliscor, Ting-Lu, Clodsire, etc - not only can wellspring easily switch into these spikes setters it also is a fantastic lead, forcing the opponent to play reactively before they've achieved meaningful earlygame objectives; although it's true that wellspring usually can't go on to sweep after boxing the opponent out of an early favorable position, by preventing hazards or forcing a risky switch its teammates can easily pick up where it leaves off. In short, in the games it does not win as a sweeper, it wins as a lead or early progress maker. You also mentioned a poor speed tier, to which I ask which Pokémon that are not a team's designated speed control outspeed ogerpon? Because at 110 speed the list is pretty much "none." Weavile and Ice Shard are decent answers... until it Terastalizes. Same goes for Kyurem! Btw "Kyurem wasn't banned because of its hazard weakness" is also straight cap, the best set was and is Heavy Duty Boots. I'm also curious how you could cite a weakness to priority moves and rate Wellspring a 2 and Roaring Moon a 5 when Roaring Moon unlike Wellspring has little to no value outside of serving as a wincon and due to the types Moon tends to Tera into it has even a larger issue with priority than Wellspring does, with Roaring Moon also being an extremely one and done Pokémon due to booster and Wellspring being able to come in a couple times and fire off fast strong Cudgels provided spikes are not up (rocks not being a real concern due to resistance.) Meowscarada is also not a real answer due to Meowscarada being an underwhelming and unfavorable Pokémon outside of the wellspring matchup.
Never said it had a bad speed tier, it is simply not fast enough to outspeed all of the high powered threats, and unlike other mons, it can't boost its speed. That is what I am saying. Unlike other mons, it can't flip its matchup completely on its head, it is locked into tera water, which means that bolt's thunderclap does more damage despite increasing its sp.Defense by 1.5x.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 234-276 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes, it can 2hit ko bolt, but if bolt can get in without taking a hit from ogerpon, then it can ko it back with thunderbolt + thunderclap.
Hazard weakness is still an issue, that means that it can't come in mid game to finish off a game. If you want to say that roaring moon has a hazards weakness, waterpon has a hazards weakness.
Listen to what I'm saying, I NEVER said it had a poor speed tier, 110 is great. But it can't boost it aside from trailblaze which means you either have a weaker grass stab or you pass up on coverage or sd. Dragapult, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Weavile, Boulder (though that is a bad mon), Meowscarada, Cinderace, Moon, Valiant and Serperior all outspeed it. And that isn't even getting into the scarfers that can outspeed it, which I consider necessary on a team. Weavile's ice shard ain't really a good revenge killer for waterpon, but triple axel is.
I believe part of the reason Kyurem wasn't banned was because of its hazards weakness. It was literally part of the reason why it fell off in the viability rankings, cause while it can don HDB, that means it goes from threatening everything with 2hit kos or OHKOs, to threatening 3hit kos.
I don't get the last part of your arguement, roaring moon is only weak to weavile's ice shard as it resists everything else besides extreme speed, but ogerpon is neutral to all. Moon also has more bulk, so it naturally is better against priority. What are you trying to say cause I am genuinelly confused. Not trying to diss you, but can you be a bit more clear in what your trying to say?
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
To be more specific on why I don't want restrictions on tera, might as well explain here.

All the restrictions are bad options. Here is a post on Tera Blast I made earlier because I don't feel like writing the same thing twice.

Stab Only Tera
This is by far the worst "restriction". It is a completely arbitrary nerf like every other restriction bar banning Blast, but it would also serve to make Tera very broken and uninteresting. It nerfs everything defensive and buffs offense, and turns Tera into literally just a free Life Orb boost to slap on a random mon instead of an actual nuanced and skill expressive mechanic.

Tera Captain
This is very similar in its extremely huge flaws to Stab Only, but it trades nerfing defense as much into introducing a ton of matchup fishing. Prevents use of Tera to respond to otherwise devastating Teras.

Tera Preview
This is by far the least bad restriction, and I'd prefer it over a ban, but Tera Preview is still very arbitrary and takes away many skillful elements of Tera like rewarding meta knowledge and careful midgrounds, while also revealing way too much info to the opponent based on the tera types alone, letting them strike where you can't defend completely risk free.
first two options are outright bad and uninteresting. i think tera preview is worth some experimentation but in singles the concept has its fair share of flaws. so i'd ultimately rather have it come down to either keeping tera or banning it fully

I don't get the last part of your arguement, roaring moon is only weak to weavile's ice shard as it resists everything else besides extreme speed, but ogerpon is neutral to all. Moon also has more bulk, so it naturally is better against priority. What are you trying to say cause I am genuinelly confused. Not trying to diss you, but can you be a bit more clear in what your trying to say?
roaring moon easily gets picked off by sucker punch from kingambit and thunderclap from raging bolt after it's used up its tera. even if it didn't burn tera it can still get chipped into KO range by grassy glide from rillaboom and sucker punch from kingambit. i do agree with your stance on roaring moon but it is undeniably very weak to priority moves
 
Last edited:

CTC

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a defending SPL Championis a Two-Time Past SPL Championis a Two-Time Past WCoP Champion
Big Chungus Winner
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 4 Entities:
Low opportunity cost, splashable, versatile, not easily wallable, and has both offensive and defensive utility. Good vs most mu's or its good mu's are so good it outweighs the amount of times mu is hopeless. Can either accrue huge advantage quickly and take over a game or make a come back in dire straits with appropriate tera/tech. No defensive mons here, all are able to boost and snowball somehow.

:Kingambit: 4 - hallmark of an ideal wincon, meta defining and has just as good defensive utility as it does offensive. However, deemed to be an essential part of the meta after several tier shifts due to its presence being needed in the meta and it having limited choices for sets. One of the all time examples of necessary evil in a meta, but objectively speaking it is the perfect gauge for whether a mon is broken. Essential part of the ecosystem holding back mindless setup and curbing pult. Checked handily by lando, birds, dozo, tusk, zama, val, encore, and status. On the literal line between 4 and 5.
1709158688189.png

:Gouging Fire: 4 - very similar to gambit in that it is as good defensively as it is offensively, with a burn immunity to match gambit's tox immunity. This mon only has 3 sets, offensive setup, bulky, and choiced, but all 3 require different counter measures to check. Rain being gone really bolstered this mons viability, as rain usually completely shuts this down as rain's utility mon pelipper hard walls it. The mon's existence however deters another cheap mon in volcarona, therefore necessitating that this mon stay in ou because volcarona unabated is arguably more broken. While one can argue that volc can run tera dragon and tera ground to muscle, i believe that volc being required to do acrobatics to jump over this obstacle limits its unpredictability and hampers its dominance to go insane with unpredictable teras. Essential part of the food chain for ho to have a longevity mon vs fatter styles while keeping volc at bay. Checked by lando, status grounds, some dozos, zama, status to force tera etc, while also phazable because it takes time to snowball. Very annoying and cheap but thats what happens when arch gets banned gutting rain and undermining the balance of the entire metagame! free arch and ban electro shit!
:Volcarona: 4 - an all time classic sweeper, no explanation needed. Easier to wall than goug but easier to get going. Flame body utility also top tier. Versatile, good defensive utility, but easier than goug to hard wall and succumbs to gking meta + goug ho and cannot do anything to stall/fat. One of the premier examples of mons that are amazing in power and utility but has coverage issues and thus magnifies the rock paper scissors of matchup. However, important glue in the metagame to help keep fairies and kyurem at bay, see the bland flavorless gking lu meta in the absence of volc. Essential. Done in by unawares, stall, dnite or physical dragons, prima, prio revenge etc.
:Ogerpon-Wellspring: 4 - with the rise of alomomola fat to combat the spill of physical attackers, oger burst onto the scene as the premier breaker to punish every style that utilizes alomomola. This mon gives ho a fighting chance vs stall alongside several other partners, and its design set perfect amounts of limitations built into its kit (hazard weak, no item, predictable tera, rather limited versatility). This is a mon similar to a mega, in that it is extremely strong at the cost of some tradeoffs, but the limitations also should not be overlooked. Even alo teams can lay spikes and wish up on switch then punish the oger with another partner. However, the high crit rate contactless water cudgel is indeed bordering on broken, as not many mons in the entire metagame can take a few of those. Tb is good v offense/balance, whereas sd whip 3 att sets can dismantle fat without the appropriate counter. Often times, however, this mon can also be useless. Into glim + dragons booster teams this mon hardly has the opportunity to come in and fire off hits. Its speed tier is amazing but not broken, it is similar to enam being the hardest hitters sitting at a relatively healthy but competitive speed tier. Overall, this mon has a perfect kit for what it seeks to accomplish in this meta which is force fast progress so that hazards + attrition do not eventually do it in. One can argue that this mon cannot be switched into, but just like certain mons like volc and bolt curbing offense and always losing to stall, this is one of those mons that punishes fat but can also easily fall to a well built ho based on either hazards or hitting hard and fast. An essential part of the ecosystem but we need electro shitless arch back to check it tho fr FREE ARCH. This mon isnt checked by much just like kyurem but hits jsut as hard. It is one of those kyurem/enam adjacent fast strong mons with good coverage and utility, but its speed and built in damage puts it a cut above them while the tradeoff of losing item/boots can be mitigated by virtue of offense being able to dictate the tempo. Without this mon alo fat teams would flood the meta and nobodys trynna play that garbage shit.
:Zamazenta: 4 - another necessary evil type mon but thanks to its shit coverage and middling attack stat, this mon is actually on the border of 4 and 3. This mon checks way more mons than iv seen any offensive threat do in modern metas, it is like lando levels of checking offensive while still boasting speed and being a wincon. This mon is almost the physdef counterpart of ting lu with more bias toward offensive capabilities, due to the roar set being spammed. In my opinion, this mon is one of the most essential mons in the entire meta and holds back the stars like general rahdan. One may argue that a mon shouldnt be this fast, this bulky, and have this much utility to sweep while technically being a defensive mon. Well, id rather have this mon roam free than have to face every variation of tera gambit as last mon. checked by lando, ghosts, status, volc, unaware, fairies, and phazing.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Level 3 Entities:
Good body, good utility, perhaps lacking something in terms of coverage, versatility, absolute power etc. Still good to trade w the majority of the meta, still forces progress with ease, and splashable/easily usable with low skill floor. One step down from level 4's who can take over games more often and more easily, as the level 4's boast some form of utility or another over this tier.

:Raging Bolt: 3 - Similar body to gambit, similar limited versatility and some may argue even less versatile than gambit. This mon is a noob check, as being swept by bolt is very easy if one uses a bad team/missplays. However, if 4 months in and one still cannot manage to outmaneuver a mon that only uses stabs and 1 other move, I got some news for ya, and its not savant syndrome. The body and kit both serve to mitigate ho spam and balance, while the mon itself suffers v stall and fatter teams. This mon is essential in curbing the ho despite being a frequent collaborator on said style. Arguably around moon levels of broken, gets a kill and trades well into everything barring extreme fat. Even then, taunt sets can stallbreak and choiced draco nukes lu/unaware mons. Very good at its job, though its job description is rather limited.
:Roaring Moon: 3 - Was debating if this is 4 or 3 but sv has been around so long that everyone and their mom knows the 3 things this shit is gonna do: dd, taunt then dd, or dd and then taunt. come on bruh landot is everywhere and every fat mon on offense is trading 1v1 w this, like neck, nite, zama etc etc. This mon is essential in providing breaking for ho and keeping certain ghosts/stalls at bay.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Level 2/1 Entities:
1709160794270.png

do u need some elo? poor widdle gwarg cwicked salt cwure on u 10 twimes? awww poor bwaby!

:Garganacl: 1 - Been fair for 2 years now. Seek help
:Gholdengo: 1 - See above. Please seek mental counciling

In conclusion, I have not found a single mon to be tier 5 aka bannable territory, with arch only barely being borderline 4/5 imo and im still not sold on its ban. Rain wasnt even that broken but now w rain gone goug is unabated, sun is unabated, and oger is unabated. Notice how rain's demise has caused disproportional rise to other threats that are now considered broken. We can still fix this, ban electro shit like we did with every other clearly broken signature move and bring arch back into the meta. This isnt even a case of oh but how do we know the move isnt broken because literally the mon is uu outside of rain. Check the stats.
Come on now lets petition to free arch and keep the meta ecosystem healthy rather than use bans as a form of population control (it doesnt work, banning more shit just makes the meta more centralized, see: lu gking zap meta)

my final verdict: There are no Tier 5 aka quickban/insta suspectable mons in this current meta. Tier 4's can be suspected down the line but i wouldnt ban them, leave the rest alone.

Use the like button as a free arch but ban electro shit button
 
Last edited:
first two options are outright bad and uninteresting. i think tera preview is worth some experimentation but in singles the concept has its fair share of flaws. so i'd ultimately rather have it come down to either keeping tera or banning it fully



roaring moon easily gets picked off by sucker punch from kingambit and thunderclap from raging bolt after it's used up its tera. even if it didn't burn tera it can still get chipped into KO range by grassy glide from rillaboom and sucker punch from kingambit. i do agree with your stance on roaring moon but it is undeniably very weak to priority moves
Thank you, I disagree with your statement about it being weak to priority, as priority is the only way of outspeeding it. I checked the calcs, and rillaboom does do a lot to it, but it does 40% max untera'd, so not really the best. It definetely isn't as weak to priority as I thought, but I still think moon is bs.
 
Never said it had a bad speed tier, it is simply not fast enough to outspeed all of the high powered threats, and unlike other mons, it can't boost its speed. That is what I am saying. Unlike other mons, it can't flip its matchup completely on its head, it is locked into tera water, which means that bolt's thunderclap does more damage despite increasing its sp.Defense by 1.5x.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 234-276 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Yes, it can 2hit ko bolt, but if bolt can get in without taking a hit from ogerpon, then it can ko it back with thunderbolt + thunderclap.
Hazard weakness is still an issue, that means that it can't come in mid game to finish off a game. If you want to say that roaring moon has a hazards weakness, waterpon has a hazards weakness.
Listen to what I'm saying, I NEVER said it had a poor speed tier, 110 is great. But it can't boost it aside from trailblaze which means you either have a weaker grass stab or you pass up on coverage or sd. Dragapult, Zamazenta, Darkrai, Weavile, Boulder (though that is a bad mon), Meowscarada, Cinderace, Moon, Valiant and Serperior all outspeed it. And that isn't even getting into the scarfers that can outspeed it, which I consider necessary on a team. Weavile's ice shard ain't really a good revenge killer for waterpon, but triple axel is.
I believe part of the reason Kyurem wasn't banned was because of its hazards weakness. It was literally part of the reason why it fell off in the viability rankings, cause while it can don HDB, that means it goes from threatening everything with 2hit kos or OHKOs, to threatening 3hit kos.
I don't get the last part of your arguement, roaring moon is only weak to weavile's ice shard as it resists everything else besides extreme speed, but ogerpon is neutral to all. Moon also has more bulk, so it naturally is better against priority. What are you trying to say cause I am genuinelly confused. Not trying to diss you, but can you be a bit more clear in what your trying to say?
Except "can't boost its speed" is completely untrue due to its access to Trailblaze, and again, it is only booster users and Weavile who can be terastalized against that Ogerpon would actually want to raise its speed vs. and Tera water is not a real consideration with regards to thunderclap because like you're saying there's no need to Tera, play rough ogerpon handles that matchup fine. And who are "all the scarfers?" How exactly does raging bolt get in without taking a hit from Ogerpon? Sorcery? Magic? If Ogerpon doesn't carry play rough, the Ogerpon user is not going to set up while raging bolt is intact- overall all the situations you describe Ogerpon having shortcomings in, aside for maybe the pult matchup, are situations Ogerpon would not realistically be in in the first place. For instance, let's say opponent has a Weavile at full in the back- why on EARTH would I send out wellspring and swords dance rather than having a teammate deal with Weavile first? Wellspring also 100% CAN "come in midgame to finish off a game" due to the immediate power/switch forcing it creates, even if it takes about 33% from a full set of hazards (which, you can send it out earlier to stop those hazards from going up) depending on how "late game" we are talking it can just start cudgeling with no SD necessary

regarding the latter portion, Roaring Moon is extremely Tera reliant to sweep and it's the types roaring moon terastalizes Into that are highly susceptible to priority, for instance flying is fucked up by sucker punch, shard, thunderclap, and roaring moon needs to come in and then dance before its doing any real type of damage, and roaring moon's "more bulk" is no real impact on how it matches into revenging options or what wearing it down before it enters a sweeping position looks like, it is also weak to u-turn and has a highly exploitable 4x fairy weakness, booster Val outspeeds proto attack roaring moon and ohkos before Tera, or forces Tera to again make this revenging easier. The booster reliance means roaring moon must be deployed at the perfect time to enter a game winning position and due to the setup reliance and abundance of checks, these openings don't really exist for roaring moon in the way they do for wellspring
 
Besides Competitveness and Enjoyment, I think we would be better served with just "Do you think such Pokémon/ mechanic/ item/ ability should be banned?" to all the others questions.
My first thought is that it should straight up be "No Action", "Suspect" and "Quickban" considering that is essentially what the council wants to boil down to (1-2, 3-4, 5) numericall
banning more shit just makes the meta more centralized, see: lu gking zap meta)
That's good though

The meta is too decentralized with too many mons that do similar roles, similarly effectively, but with very different answers making for a meta that IMO is one of the biggest MU fishes I've seen since I started playing CGOU
 
Enjoyment - 7
Competitiveness - 8
Tera action - Yes
Tera ban - No
:gouging fire: - 4
:ogerpon-wellspring: - 3
:roaring moon: - 2
:volcarona: - 1
:raging bolt: - 3
:kingambit: - 5
:zamazenta: - 1
:gholdengo: - 5
:garganacl: - 1

Only wanna say, I'm doing this for you guys. Gambit and Ghold are alright in my eyes but let's get the talking over with.

Also voting 4 on GF, my favorite mon archetype is fat DD Roost mons, but this one might be too fast and stronk. I enjoy using it and haven't crossed one in ladder thus far, but hey if you insist...
 
Except "can't boost its speed" is completely untrue due to its access to Trailblaze, and again, it is only booster users and Weavile who can be terastalized against that Ogerpon would actually want to raise its speed vs. and Tera water is not a real consideration with regards to thunderclap because like you're saying there's no need to Tera, play rough ogerpon handles that matchup fine. And who are "all the scarfers?" How exactly does raging bolt get in without taking a hit from Ogerpon? Sorcery? Magic? If Ogerpon doesn't carry play rough, the Ogerpon user is not going to set up while raging bolt is intact- overall all the situations you describe Ogerpon having shortcomings in, aside for maybe the pult matchup, are situations Ogerpon would not realistically be in in the first place. For instance, let's say opponent has a Weavile at full in the back- why on EARTH would I send out wellspring and swords dance rather than having a teammate deal with Weavile first? Wellspring also 100% CAN "come in midgame to finish off a game" due to the immediate power/switch forcing it creates, even if it takes about 33% from a full set of hazards (which, you can send it out earlier to stop those hazards from going up) depending on how "late game" we are talking it can just start cudgeling with no SD necessary

regarding the latter portion, Roaring Moon is extremely Tera reliant to sweep and it's the types roaring moon terastalizes Into that are highly susceptible to priority, for instance flying is fucked up by sucker punch, shard, thunderclap, and roaring moon needs to come in and then dance before its doing any real type of damage, and roaring moon's "more bulk" is no real impact on how it matches into revenging options or what wearing it down before it enters a sweeping position looks like, it is also weak to u-turn and has a highly exploitable 4x fairy weakness, booster Val outspeeds proto attack roaring moon and ohkos before Tera, or forces Tera to again make this revenging easier. The booster reliance means roaring moon must be deployed at the perfect time to enter a game winning position and due to the setup reliance and abundance of checks, these openings don't really exist for roaring moon in the way they do for wellspring
I know that it can boost its speed with trailblaze, but that is a wasted moveslot in my opinion since you either give up coverage, sd or a stronger grass move which means it can't get as many kills as it wants. I did say that in my post, but I guess you might of missed it. I'll confirm it here, trailblaze exists, but is a worse trade-off.
The tera water logic could be applied to moon as well, it might not tera or come in until its checks have been chipped for it to go for a sweep. That is the case for most sweepers, so I don't get what you are trying to say there. Slow pivoting moves are a way to do it, glowking is great for that as it takes 65% max and can regen some of the damage off.
In the right scenario, yes, you wouldn't send in waterpon in first, but that is for every other mon, you don't send it in unless it's checks are chipped. You cannot come in midgame as easily since if the check is still active, which it should be, then waterpon can't properly set up. You can try to deny hazards early, but that isn't always going to be the easiest thing in the world due to the amount of anti-leads and suicide leads that can get up hazards guarenteed. Let's look at Hamurott, waterpon looks like it does amazing against it as it can get a horn leech off on it. However, it is going to take some 50ish% from it and have a spike up on the field, making it not as easy to come in.
I know that moon is tera reliant, but the thing is that it can it can brute force your way past checks. Zama has to tera in order to beat it, which means it is going to be more exploitable.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 180-212 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not real damage btw, and this is apparently one of the better checks. I know it can tera, but that is a big thing for the moon team as they have wasted it. It can outrun valiant after one dd, as valiant can't fully come in against it and most likely they are switching to valiant as it is the only mon that can outspeed moon, which means it can tera easily and ko it back. That means revenge killing it is a lot harder. Moon may only be able to be deployed once to truly sweep a team, but that doesn't make a difference if that one turn it gets means it can outspeed everything and ko everything. Waterpon may be able to come in multiple times, but it always has the option of outspeeding it, which most teams will be able to do, bar stall.
If it is because stall is destroyed by it, then sure, that is a better reason, but standard teams have ways to outspeed it.
 
Week 6 was chock full of average teams except for this one where I liked the team featuring Garganacyl(I know that's a Corviknight). And Volcorona is a staple in OU, that should be looked at as a Kingambit check but also a Dragapult one. Do you have any idea why Facade isn't run on Zamazenta for Gliscor sweeps?
Ice fang is much better for dealing with gliscor and dragons, as it otherwise is a wasted moveslot if you don't encounter gliscor. You would either take out the gliscor with ice fang, or tera and do double ice fang if they are high health.
 

viivian

beep boop
is a Tiering Contributor
serperior fell off a cliff lately. it's super tera reliant and only fits on cheesy HO styles, to say nothing of how useless it is against bulkier teams. it's not on the survey because there isn't even any serious consideration for a ban
 
Facts - due to the council using Averages rather than Median or Bar Graphs voting 2-4 is a relatively wasted vote, as we've seen with several "well a bunch of people voted a bunch a different ways but the average came to be like 2.5 so we won't do anything" throughout the gen. Averages as the measure nullify the 1-5 scale's value
My problem with this is you also agreed with the person who said that the way the Tera question was phrased was manipulative. You also said the "harshly worded 'needs to be banned' question" was something you didn't want to say strictly yes to, but did for lack of better options.

Doesn't that imply you would want a number 1-5 for the Tera question to give a proper scale to how problematic you think it is or isn't? But then what is the difference if everyone should just vote 5 or 1 anyways? Isn't that basically like a yes or no for ban or don't ban?

Please clarify if I misunderstood. But it seems to me like there can only be one of these two stances at the same time.

Personally, I like the 1-5 scale. Folks should maybe stop trying to worry about max influencing the survey with a single vote and go with what they actually think. The survey's purpose is to give the council a general idea of how the community feels. If everyone lied or exaggerated trying to fudge the vote, you might wind up with something like Raging Bolt or Volcorona getting the same priority as Gouging Fire. They all would be 5s at max priority, right? That seems like it would be a mess.
 
I know that it can boost its speed with trailblaze, but that is a wasted moveslot in my opinion since you either give up coverage, sd or a stronger grass move which means it can't get as many kills as it wants. I did say that in my post, but I guess you might of missed it. I'll confirm it here, trailblaze exists, but is a worse trade-off.
The tera water logic could be applied to moon as well, it might not tera or come in until its checks have been chipped for it to go for a sweep. That is the case for most sweepers, so I don't get what you are trying to say there. Slow pivoting moves are a way to do it, glowking is great for that as it takes 65% max and can regen some of the damage off.
In the right scenario, yes, you wouldn't send in waterpon in first, but that is for every other mon, you don't send it in unless it's checks are chipped. You cannot come in midgame as easily since if the check is still active, which it should be, then waterpon can't properly set up. You can try to deny hazards early, but that isn't always going to be the easiest thing in the world due to the amount of anti-leads and suicide leads that can get up hazards guarenteed. Let's look at Hamurott, waterpon looks like it does amazing against it as it can get a horn leech off on it. However, it is going to take some 50ish% from it and have a spike up on the field, making it not as easy to come in.
I know that moon is tera reliant, but the thing is that it can it can brute force your way past checks. Zama has to tera in order to beat it, which means it is going to be more exploitable.
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 180-212 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not real damage btw, and this is apparently one of the better checks. I know it can tera, but that is a big thing for the moon team as they have wasted it. It can outrun valiant after one dd, as valiant can't fully come in against it and most likely they are switching to valiant as it is the only mon that can outspeed moon, which means it can tera easily and ko it back. That means revenge killing it is a lot harder. Moon may only be able to be deployed once to truly sweep a team, but that doesn't make a difference if that one turn it gets means it can outspeed everything and ko everything. Waterpon may be able to come in multiple times, but it always has the option of outspeeding it, which most teams will be able to do, bar stall.
If it is because stall is destroyed by it, then sure, that is a better reason, but standard teams have ways to outspeed it.
It does NOT "also apply to roaring moon" because waterpon has significantly more immediate power than roaring moon and its moves are immediately more threatening and more difficult to switch into. Roaring Moon and waterpon both have limited sweeping abilities while their checks are active but waterpon not being setup reliant to wallbreak, as well as being able to switch out, means that real world applications of roaring moon coming in, setting up, and sweeping are significantly more limited than wellspring, and you also have more room to react to roaring moon coming out than wellspring due to this difference in immediate power. And I agree, terastalizing roaring moon is a bit wasteful, but it's almost required if you want acrobatics to do real damage, as shown by the calc you showed. That calc actually illustrates the exact opposite point you are trying to show, did you seriously point at a 95% chance to have to use 3 hits to KO when +1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 420-494 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO as roaring moon being able to blow past its checks? Walk me through exactly how doing 45% and fucking dying is "brute forcing past checks" and why a Zama Tera is required in that situation, not to mention that this Zama set ALWAYS has rock slide which is a very free click if Tera flying is predicted (which given how one note roaring moon is is a very easy task given the context of the roaring moon user's position.) as previously established +1 roaring moon is definitely not able to "outspeed and ohko everything" given its significant weaknesses to priority and other exploitable weaknesses that can be easily used to prevent setup and significantly limit the chances it has to enter and set up. TLDR roaring moon's only value is committing to a sweep, ogerpon has value beyond this

i also will need you to explain to me the way that everything you said does not also apply to Dragonite, who unlike moon is able to carry heavy duty boots, is much more free to set up and much harder to revenge due to Multiscale, and is significantly less priority weak (debatably immune to priority) due to carrying ExtremeSpeed, with Tera + Multiscale giving Dragonite not one but TWO turns to setup in the face of its checks and ExtremeSpeed boxing out revenge killing options, as well as Dragonite being able to be just as if not more disruptive than roaring moon via access to encore, as well as being able to viably run mixed sets/lures due to its usable special attack stat and movepool. What exactly separates one from the other?


My problem with this is you also agreed with the person who said that the way the Tera question was phrased was manipulative. You also said the "harshly worded 'needs to be banned' question" was something you didn't want to say strictly yes to, but did for lack of better options.

Doesn't that imply you would want a number 1-5 for the Tera question to give a proper scale to how problematic you think it is or isn't? But then what is the difference if everyone should just vote 5 or 1 anyways? Isn't that basically like a yes or no for ban or don't ban?

Please clarify if I misunderstood. But it seems to me like there can only be one of these two stances at the same time.

Personally, I like the 1-5 scale. Folks should maybe stop trying to worry about max influencing the survey with a single vote and go with what they actually think. The survey's purpose is to give the council a general idea of how the community feels. If everyone lied or exaggerated trying to fudge the vote, you might wind up with something like Raging Bolt or Volcorona getting the same priority as Gouging Fire. They all would be 5s at max priority, right? That seems like it would be a mess.
These are perfectly reconcilable opinions. there could be a contradiction if Tera and Pokémon are handled the same way on the survey, the problem is they aren't. The problem with the 1-5 scale isn't necessarily the way the data is collected, it's the way it's interpreted - what each number means is subjective, which is a flaw, but by using averages rather than medians or the number of each response makes 2-4 much less real answers since they skew the average less than 1-5. However, if scores are interpreted through raw number of responses, we can say "250 people thought it was a two, but 600 thought it was a four" and that would glean data on playerbase opinion better than "well it has a 3.41% average which is less than 4 so no action is necessary." So there are ways the 1-5 scale can be used to glean how strong peoples' opinions are when the data is interpreted properly, which is an advantage of a 1-5 scale, but using averages limits the 1-5 scale's usefulness. the Tera questions hit the worst of both worlds because they allow no space for those on the fence to express that and also only allow people who are confident a full ban is necessary before even playing a suspect to have a voice in favor of even looking at the mechanic. Does that make sense?
 
Last edited:
It does NOT "also apply to roaring moon" because waterpon has significantly more immediate power than roaring moon and its moves are immediately more threatening and more difficult to switch into. Roaring Moon and waterpon both have limited sweeping abilities while their checks are active but waterpon not being setup reliant to wallbreak, as well as being able to switch out, means that real world applications of roaring moon coming in, setting up, and sweeping are significantly more limited than wellspring, and you also have more room to react to roaring moon coming out than wellspring due to this difference in immediate power. And I agree, terastalizing roaring moon is a bit wasteful, but it's almost required if you want acrobatics to do real damage, as shown by the calc you showed. That calc actually illustrates the exact opposite point you are trying to show, did you seriously point at a 95% chance to have to use 3 hits to KO when +1 88 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 420-494 (119.6 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO as roaring moon being able to blow past its checks? Walk me through exactly how doing 45% and fucking dying is "brute forcing past checks" and why a Zama Tera is required in that situation, not to mention that this Zama set ALWAYS has rock slide which is a very free click if Tera flying is predicted (which given how one note roaring moon is is a very easy task given the context of the roaring moon user's position.) as previously established +1 roaring moon is definitely not able to "outspeed and ohko everything" given its significant weaknesses to priority and other exploitable weaknesses that can be easily used to prevent setup and significantly limit the chances it has to enter and set up?

i also will need you to explain to me the way that everything you said does not also apply to Dragonite, who unlike moon is able to carry heavy duty boots, is much more free to set up and much harder to revenge due to Multiscale, and is significantly less priority weak (debatably immune to priority) due to carrying ExtremeSpeed, with Tera + Multiscale giving Dragonite not one but TWO turns to setup in the face of its checks and ExtremeSpeed boxing out revenge killing options, as well as Dragonite being able to be just as if not more disruptive than roaring moon via access to encore, as well as being able to viably run mixed sets/lures due to its usable special attack stat and movepool. What exactly separates one from the other?
That calc was to show, that even one of the better checks still has to take big damage from an immediate attack. With only one layer of spikes up, it is a guarenteed 2 hit ko. One of the better checks to moon is destroyed by it, which is also one of the bulkier mons in the tier. Yes, moon is more reliant on set-up, but it isn't bad if it can't. Also, something I've seen in the replays that have moon in it, is that when it is threatened out, it still is able to come in and threaten good damage. One in smogtours where it was forced to switch out, it did massive damage to a corv, basically rendering it obselate for the game, knocked off garg and did good damage and did 50% to tusk. And that's just when it couldn't sweep at first. The fact of the matter is, most checks have to be careful with there health. They also always will be crippled for the rest of the game, knock off is a big thing for moon. Waterpon to run it has to give up on play rough, which means that dragons counter it harder. I'm not saying that waterpon is bad, it definetely is a great mon, but it just can't force trades/progress as well as moon.
The difference between moon and dragonite is the speed tier. Yes, dragonite has multiscale to take a hit and has priority, but that initial speed tier means that it can't threaten mons as easily. For example, a tusk can switch into a dragonite and remove multiscale while only taking 60% from it. On the other hand, moon can ko tusk outright. This is done if both are at +1. Technically at 0, dragonite is better. But that isn't always the case. Dragonite is a great mon, but it doesn't have the raw speed to do it, extreme speed isn't always enough to alleviate this, as even something frail like weavile can take a +1 extreme speed. Of course, +1 tera normal it can't, but that's to say that without stab, extreme speed is only picking off targets. Let's look at zama again, dragonite can only do max 36% to it. That's at +1 and tera normal. You can get that normally with moon. Dragonite is better at destroying weakened teams, while moon is much more powerful first off.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 8, Guests: 23)

Top