Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council is aiming to put out a survey this weekend or early next week on the initial post-DLC2 metagame and how to proceed.

 

[Finchinator]

Personally, I find nothing to be egregiously broken. There are a few things you can absolutely argue for being problems and I do think we can have a great discussion on them, which can begin with the survey. I am not sure if any quickbans will come and suspects are always an option, too. For now, we are going to obtain data and continue to discuss as the tier continues to progress at a fast pace.

 

[Finchinator]

With this in mind, I do find thing like Deoxys-Speed, Gouging Fire, Kyurem, and Serperior worthy of a great deal of discussion. You can even group in Pokemon like Kingambit, Volcarona, or Roaring Moon from the past metagame or different new Pokemon like Raging Bolt or Pokemon with new niches like Enamorus. Even Gliscor and Gholdengo deserve a greater look (which we saw the previews of in the last metagame).

I do not think anything is super pressing right now to the extent an immediate ban is needed, but I do think community information can help us determine what step is best to take next!

 

[1234hjkl]

Personally, I don't think Pult is a top mon, but I can understand why it is considered such. As alkazoth and some others pointed out to me, that speed with the ability to chunk things is really useful utility but I feel that its power on special sets is starting to fall behind (almost requiring Choice Specs) and physical sets are becoming more exploitable.

In my opinion the thing about Pult is less it's power and more about it's versatility, it can do almost everything and be at very least decent at all those jobs. It can be be a special attacker, mixed sets, physical sets, screens and I even saw a few Scarf sets on high ladder. Pult is like a damn swiss-knive pokémon.

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

How can u see the current bqlanced meta and how wrong many were about darkrai and be so repulsed by the idea of testing anything else to come down?

We lose nothing by testing anything else coming down if we decide it was bad during its test. We're back to our perfect balanced game then

??????¿

 

[BolTingBlazie]

With this in mind, I do find thing like Deoxys-Speed, Gouging Fire, Kyurem, and Serperior worthy of a great deal of discussion. You can even group in Pokemon like Kingambit, Volcarona, or Roaring Moon from the past metagame or different new Pokemon like Raging Bolt or Pokemon with new niches like Enamorus. Even Gliscor and Gholdengo deserve a greater look (which we saw the previews of in the last metagame).

I do not think anything is super pressing right now to the extent an immediate ban is needed, but I do think community information can help us determine what step is best to take next!

I doubt Gouging fire is broken, I think it's just an S/S- rank pokemon that is stupid easy to slap onto teams due to how easy it is to slot onto Balance/Bulky Offense/Hyper Offense teams.

I do think Kyurem and Roaring Moon need a closer look though, both seem like they are pretty busted.

How can u see the current bqlanced meta and how wrong many were about darkrai and be so repulsed by the idea of testing anything else to come down?

We lose nothing by testing anything else coming down if we decide it was bad during its test. We're back to our perfect balanced game then

??????¿

Other than Kyurem and Roaring Moon the meta is in a decent spot, I think we should wait until after the tera stuff is resolved before we start testing stuff like Lugia and Zamazenta-C mainly because it would probably be easier to tell if they are broken with less brokens around and could be booted quicker if they end up being a problem

 

[alkazoth]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?
Really enjoying Dragapult rn, it's a top tier mon again thanks to the Terapagos ban. Outspeeding everything unboosted is an amazing trait to have in this offensive metagame, and it still chunks everything earlygame so it can clean up lategame.

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?
Fat balance with hazard stack. I'm really enjoying using mons like Skarmory, Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Toxapex, and Hydrapple on these kinds of team structures. Skarmory and Corviknight being physically fat Steel/Flying types work really well with Ting-Lu, the fattest special wall in the game. Skarm sets spikes and Corv pivots. Toxapex has really impressed me as of recently, since fire resists are a lot more useful now since the introduction of Gouging Fire and Blaziken and the unbanning of Volcarona. Hydrapple's a fascinating mon, since it wasn't hyped up much before release but now that it's on showdown I have seen so much potential and set versatility for this mon going forward. I've tried physdef and NP and both really impressed me. Physdef being one of the few Iron Boulder checks is super helpful and NP Hydrapple with Earth Power hits almost every mon in the tier, along with its good 120 spat.

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?
My favorite physical attacker rn is Meowscarada due to it gaining Triple Axel. The amount of mons that reliably switch into it now has dwindled greatly, altho the introduction of Archaludon provided a suitable switch in for this new meta. I also love using it as a pivot in general. My favorite special attacker is either Hydrapple or Glowking. I've always been a huge Glowking fan and still love Future Sight+breaker cores to this day, it provides so much utility in one slot (i.e. special wall, pivoting capabilities, weather switching, fairy resist, future sight, regen). Hydrapple has been such a welcome presence and I'm so glad it's legitimately great. I've already explained this in question 2, NP sets can break balance teams open and physdef sets check a variety of mons such as Iron Boulder and Ogerpon.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

How can u see the current bqlanced meta and how wrong many were about darkrai and be so repulsed by the idea of testing anything else to come down?

We lose nothing by testing anything else coming down if we decide it was bad during its test. We're back to our perfect balanced game then

??????¿

because the things people are suggesting to test are utterly deranged. we've actually got what looks like it might be a semi-stable meta here for the first time in over a year and people want to throw box legendaries into it. i would support maybe a roomtour or two with solgaleo or lugia legal because it would shut down the arguments for good, but releasing them into the meta at large for any length of time is a terrible idea

 

[DaRotomMachine]

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

1. Its in the same spot before terapagos and dlc2, i guess, with pokemon like goug-fire and raging bolt in the tier

2. I would probably say bulky offense.

3. Special are hydrapple and archalodon, physicals is probably gouging fire

 

[aeladoodles]

How can u see the current bqlanced meta and how wrong many were about darkrai and be so repulsed by the idea of testing anything else to come down?

We lose nothing by testing anything else coming down if we decide it was bad during its test. We're back to our perfect balanced game then

??????¿

I think there's a decent difference between something like Darkrai, which had its best quality utterly gutted, has to contend with so much powercreep, and has only been in the meta for a week anyway, and something like box legendaries which lack any glaring flaw other than "pretty mid in Ubers".

 

[Morkal]

With this in mind, I do find thing like Deoxys-Speed, Gouging Fire, Kyurem, and Serperior worthy of a great deal of discussion. You can even group in Pokemon like Kingambit, Volcarona, or Roaring Moon from the past metagame or different new Pokemon like Raging Bolt or Pokemon with new niches like Enamorus. Even Gliscor and Gholdengo deserve a greater look (which we saw the previews of in the last metagame).

I do not think anything is super pressing right now to the extent an immediate ban is needed, but I do think community information can help us determine what step is best to take next!

I'd love to hear the specifics on Gouging Fire's potential broken aspects because I'm not seeing it beyond being "pretty good" or "really good" in OU. It has trouble running bulkier sets despite reliable recovery due to a lack of utility options, and stuff like Burning Bulwark ended up being comparatively mediocre thanks to the burn only being via contact moves (which a lot of what Gouging Fire is hit by super effectively isn't contact). I've found that offensive sets are the way to go; while Dragon + Fire STAB with great coverage options (Crunch, Earthquake, Iron Head, Psychic Fangs, and Stone Edge) + Dragon Dance is awesome (Protosynthesis and how good Sun is right now also help it), it's held back by a frustrating 91 speed tier, decidedly lacking 115 base attack before a boost, and its 105/121/93 bulk is hindered by its defensive typing which allows it to be hit super effectively by common Rock, Ground, and Dragon-type moves while only resisting Bug, Steel, Grass, Fire (4x), and Electric moves. Plus it's one of the most hazard-sensitive mons in the tier, especially to Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock.

 

[Finchinator]

Gouging Fire was specifically included due to the offensive variants, but I listed a lot of things and they are not me saying they are broken so much as me saying they have surfaced throughout our very much not-binding discussions.

My goal is to be transparent and communicative here, so do not worry too much until we have datasets I would say.

 

[Morkal]

Gouging Fire was specifically included due to the offensive variants, but I listed a lot of things and they are not me saying they are broken so much as me saying they have surfaced throughout our very much not-binding discussions.

My goal is to be transparent and communicative here, so do not worry too much until we have datasets I would say.

Fair; I'm really digging how OU is being run this generation. The communication, surveys, openness of discussion, and experimentation in what's defining OU's standards feel like a breath of fresh air - this is even more true in DLC2 OU which is probably my favorite OU meta right now tied with Gen 5 weather wars OU. I'm excited to see what DLC2's first usage charts look like - predicting Deoxys-S at #1 with Great Tusk at #2 or #3 based on what I've seen in my time in this new OU so far.

 

[Pokemon Trainer: Shadow]

Gouging Fire being weak to SR keeps it in check imo as it limits its switch ins if isn't running boots. It absolutely has sweeping potential, but there are plenty of ways of stopping it.

For the most part, I think we're off to a relatively good start in the meta? Outside of Terapagos, nothing feels too overwhelming at the moment. Granted, we're still feeling things out a week into the meta and I expect things to get crazier as we move, but we're in a good spot atm.

With the exceptions of RM and arguably Deoxys-S, none of the unbanned mons feel too bad either as there are ways of dealing with them now.

 

[Casteliacone]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

1. Honestly haven't seen pult around too much, but my opinion of him is pretty much the same, pult is pult and is pretty damn good
2. Balance/BO, I just think it's neat
3. Phys attackers: Tusk, Boulder, Meow, Enteiceratops. Special Attackers: Serp, Brachiraikou, Latios, Hydrapple, Volc

 

[SweetLou32]

To shift the discussion over, I'd like to propose three questions to everyone here -

1. How are you all feeling about in the meta right now?

2. What is your favorite team style in this meta that isn't hyper-offense?

3. What are your favorite physical and special attackers in OU right now?

1. I love specs pult so much it's so fun to use and is definitely one of its best sets. Pult has a lot of diversity and its speed is amazing. Def is a mon that needs hazard support, especially against webs, but I think it's still a top mon in the meta.
2. Honestly haven't used many teams besides ho, it's just too fun to pass up. Plus I hate stall and I haven't found a solid core for balance to really deal with everything in the meta.
3. CB ace is fun to use, not the best physical attacker but stab on everything + sucker punch, and pivoting with u-turn makes it really fun and useful. Needs hazard support tho. For the special side, I love my moth, still cooks a lot of the tier with a solid speed tier and can spiral with attack boosts. I run booster special on him with sub to cheese some wins.

 

[RUrena888]

Maybe something like this:
Blastoise w/ White Herb
Jolly Nature, Tera Type Ground
- Shell Smash
- Wave Crash OR Waterfall so as to avoid recoil
- Ice Spinner
- Earthquake

One more quick question about this type of set though: if not in OU, could it possibly be valuable in UU?

 

[MilkyWay]

Since the topic about unbanning Uber mons came up, I wanna make a nomination to drop what I think it's the shittiest and most pathetic Uber mon. No It's not Zama-C, Solagaleo, Reshiram or one of the UUbers, I'm talking real garbage, i'm talking about Lugia.

Lugia already been falling down a long time since I dunno.... Gen 6, but this gen I believe gave Lugia the final nail to it's coffin, it lost 3 moves it liked a lot: Toxic, Thunder Wave and Defog. Lugia is a passive piece of shit, it's main use was a glorified punchbang and maybe throw a Toxic or a ice beam in a unsuspecting Zyg100, now it lost one of the few moves who allowed it to breach it's passivity and not make it flat out lose to Pink Blobs, Unaware mons and in general bulky mons.

Now I know some may look at his stats and think I'm outta my mind, but no, Lugia has below average offensive stats, a bad defensive and offensive type and while it's abilities are very good for a bulky mon like it, it still can't put good pressure in it's opponents, it can't recover endlessly like before because the recovery nerf, 110 speed doesn't look impressive nowadays with all the fast mons in the tier, the horrible type offeset it's high defenses and make it rocks weak and propense to every kind of status and bait for some of the best mons in the tier like Hamurott, Gambit, Dhengo, Darkrai, Boulder, R.Bolt, Arch etc. While Lugia has two good set up moves in Calm Mind and Curse, it's so weak offensively it needs to Tera to not fold to those very dangerous threats and get some set up opportunitties, and why waste your Tera in a glorified punch bag when you can use on one of the actual good mons.

"But if it's so bad, why do you wanna bring in here? The tier is too volatile right now, no need for another UUber." I wanna bring it here exactly because I think it will do some good for the tier. While I really believe it's garbage as both an offensive mon and mid as a defensive one I still think it could help in contain some dangerous threats, in a pinch it could be a good check for valiant, another decent phaser for the tier which in my opinion needs a lot with all the dangerous set-up sweepers like Moon, G.Fire, etc.

TL/DR: Lugia is not a UUber, more like a RUber, but, it might help our tier get some breating space of all the the offensive mons and it I don't believe it will become unhealthy between bad type, low power, loss of critical moves like T-Wave and Toxic and overall looking kinda Tera-reliant.

Huh I never realized how buns Lugia’s movepool was until I checked rn. Def would be broken with toxic, but now it’s gonna be much harder to make progress.

I’m not gonna waste time reiterating all the points you already made, but as I see it Lugia’s only real shot of being broken is a set of Calm Mind, Recover, two fillers, and importantly that set is going to be super tera reliant to actually sweep.

Idk why people are acting like using up tera isn’t that noteworthy cuz it’s always been a huge opportunity cost this gen. Even with Tera you’re still struggling with Ting, Gliscor, balloon/scarf ghold, unaware, status, encore, and this just off the top of my head. Also huge diff b/w Luigia and other CM psychics (Latias, Cress) is lack of stored power so you’re not gonna be cutting thru resists or getting nearly as many OHKOs.

Imo you pretty much hit the nail on the head when you pointed out that Lugia may be a punching bag, but it’s also a passive POS that does nothing in return. I do think there’s a small chance that calm mind + recovery + Tera on something with those stats is broken, but I’d bet under 50%

Unfortunately I don’t think anyone (including myself lol) is invested enough in testing Lugia at this point in time, but fwiw people also called the few of us arguing for Darkrai as crazy and look how that turned out lol

 

[SweetLou32]

One more quick question about this type of set though: if not in OU, could it possibly be valuable in UU?

Personally i think Blastoise will either sit in Nu/Nubl/ or ru

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

because the things people are suggesting to test are utterly deranged. we've actually got what looks like it might be a semi-stable meta here for the first time in over a year and people want to throw box legendaries into it. i would support maybe a roomtour or two with solgaleo or lugia legal because it would shut down the arguments for good, but releasing them into the meta at large for any length of time is a terrible idea

*searches "darkrai" posts by user daddybuzzwole*

 

[YubelVT]

Seeing Darkrai be mid in OU made me wonder for a moment if Shaymin-Sky could also be retested (its stats are very similar to Darkrai, after all, being a bit weaker but faster, and while it has higher HP it's offset by lower defenses), but then I immediately axed that idea because unlike Darkrai:
A: Shaymin-S isn't wanting for power on its STAB due to the extreme power of Seed Flare, even with Grass as a relatively bad attacking type (but not that bad, as Seed Flare does obliterate known OU staple Great Tusk), which can also potentially cheese its way past checks in a manner similar to Latios thanks to its effect (and does so more consistently than Latios' Luster Purge thanks to the fact it's a -2 drop and Serene Grace makes it more likely to proc).
B: It's immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web thanks to its Flying-typing.
C: That tiny bit of extra speed matters more than one would expect as it speedcreeps Darkrai...
And most important of all, D: It STILL does Serene Grace Air Slash shenanigans as it always has- which is the main point it has over Darkrai- it actually has an ability.

Absolutely fucking not. Gen 5 OU Shaymin-Sky is the only ban in smogon history that was UNANIMOUS. and nothing has changed for this fucker other than it (thankfully) becoming unviable in ubers. Y'know how annoying togekiss is? Now imagine togekiss, but fast, and that's Shaymin Sky.

*searches "darkrai" posts by user daddybuzzwole*

people are allowed to be wrong

 

[Divine Retribution]

Despite the fact that the cancer that is hazard stack hasn't really gone into remission, I have to admit this metagame definitely feels a lot better than before DLC. Maybe it's new toy syndrome but I've genuinely enjoyed laddering more the past few days than I have for the entire rest of Gen 9 (and most of Gen 8 as well).

I think Deo-S and Gholdengo are probably the two that stick out as the most obnoxious problems to me at the moment, and mostly responsible for how the metagame slants towards hazard stacking hyper offense. The thing is, unlike most metagames where HO is really good, it still feels perfectly possible to run balance or even stall in the current metagame. I'd say it favors HO but not to the point where other archetypes aren't viable.

Roaring Moon and Valiant are definitely both still extremely strong, but they're both very good both into and on HO while not being close to deadweight against other archetypes as well, so that's small wonder.

I don't think Gouging Fire is broken at all. It's versatile and splashable, but so was Landorus-T for generations.

I still want Gholdengo to gholdengo to hell though, ban that shit please thnx

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

Absolutely fucking not. Gen 5 OU Shaymin-Sky is the only ban in smogon history that was UNANIMOUS. and nothing has changed for this fucker other than it (thankfully) becoming unviable in ubers. Y'know how annoying togekiss is? Now imagine togekiss, but fast, and that's Shaymin Sky.


people are allowed to be wrong

yes i would just expect more open mindedness and less assertive, dismissive language afterwards. opinions are one thing but I think some thoughts about Urshifu-R and even though less convincing, Lugia were well voiced and not 'utterly deranged'.

again we would be out nothing by running a 2 week suspect on something like this and deciding we were wrong. I'm not necessarily a huge advocate for either but the attitude is perplexing.

 

[alkazoth]

Unbanning Lugia and Solgaleo is not the move I would make, the meta's finally somewhat stable and unbanning 2 broken mons from ubers specifically because they're bad in ubers is not a good decision. Lugia would just wall and stall everything (keep in mind it has access to Tera) and Solgaleo has like Toxapex level bulk and can run Band with no switch ins, and on top of that can run utility sets. There's no realistic scenario these 2 would ever be unbanned simply because they would be too much for the metagame and provide nothing of value, genuinely cannot see why some people want it unbanned as ludicrous as it is

 

[Eeveeto]

I think that without Hidden Power in the arsenal, Shaymin-S could be tested in OU... without Tera allowed. This is another Mon that maybe could be balanced, even with Serene Grace, but Tera makes that chance 0%. So, I wouldn,t waste time even discussing it.