Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

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Ok how is this thing legal?
I know I know BST isn't EVERYTHING, yeah Slaking and Regigigas are exceptions, but this is Zygarde 2.0.
700 BST without any major holes like low Def like Hoopa-U has is absurd. Only 1 stat below 100 which is speed, which is fine because this thing has 160/110/110 bulk. In addition, it has STAB on every move, a 120 BP move that'll become typeless and hits everything neutrally, and pretty decently high SpA with Calm Mind.
Oh and if that wasn't good enough, its base form can tank a hit to set up once thanks to Tera Shell, then go into it busted form.
I got to ask WHY anyone in the council thought starting this thing out in OU was a good idea?

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Duraludon had problems in previous Gen 8 with it being PUBL, and despite the 600 BST I only see Archaludon going up a few tiers. Its stats were only slightly buffed in each area, all but Spe, which is expected since it's a bridge. Aside from Electro Shot being slightly better Meteor Beam, and its abilities being slightly better, Archaludon doesn't seem that great.

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Hydrapple is likely going to be the best of the applin line and solid in lower tiers, but a slow Grass Dragon type is not something that'll last in OU, despite its potentially strong Gravity Beam- I mean Fickle Beam move. Regenerator + 106/110/80 bulk is definitely nice, but it has plenty of weaknesses to common attacking types like Fairy, Flying, and of course Ice
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Gourging Fire is pretty unique as its the only Paradox Pokemon with a signature move that's also a status move. Additionally while Walking Wake and Raging Bolt were changed significantly from their modern Jhoto counterparts, GF has really similar stat distribution to Entei, but better. Having Dragon STAB and Dragon Dance, and also a burn version of Baneful Bunker (unfortunately doesn't protect from status move), GF can be pretty flexible. Spec it into defensive role using its excellent bulk, or spec into being a set up sweeper, or all out attacker. It can do a lot more than its modern counterpart.
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Raging Bolt falls inline more with what Walking Wake did for Suicune, where it dramatically changes the stats Raikou has. It's closer to Farigiraf, except its much bulkier, faster, and stronger. If it wasn't for Thunderclap. this thing would definitely be lower tiers for sure, possibly UU. With special electric version of Sucker Punch, this thing could definitely be decent in OU. No Nasty Plot or Supreme Overlord, but it does get Calm Mind and Protosynthesis to abuse Thunderclap with. It's coming off its 137 SpA after all.
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Firstly, worst design out of all the new Pokemon. Body looks like a Sphere they added to unity and face looks like Cobson.
Second, it's probably best new Pokemon statwise. It's as fast a Ribombee, it'd be the second fastest Future Paradox Pokemon, has pretty good Atk, and even decent bulk. Only part holding it back is its typing, which is not so great. It also has lack luster Psychic STAB having Zen Headbutt as its best move, but otherwise looks great.
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Iron Crowns is kind of disappointing. Its stat distribution is pretty average, like a less extreme version of Raging Bolt. But unlike Raging Bolt, its signature move is much more niche. Tachyon Cutter is similar to Dragon Darts in singles, even having the same base power. It obviously is strong for sure, but not as special as Thunderclap. It does have a unique niche in beating Glimmora as a lead and with Scarf can beat Ribombee as well, so it has that going for it. It's also a steel type with good bulk, which is always nice, and has the insanely busted Psychic Noise. It looks pretty solid all things considered.
 
cyclonez_ said:
I really hope Gouging Flame can stay in the tier. It has a very unique defensive profile, plus its access to reliable recovery and red Baneful Bunker means it has some very appealing traits for balance teams, hell I could see it seeing play on Stall for that signature alone. DD sets also seem like they could be very good. Hell, you could detail a team where it's unclear on preview whether it's defensive and offensive and use that to mindgame your opponent. Super cool mon. Sure hope Sun doesn't get it banned :worrywhirl:
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Gouging Fire has a bad weakness to stealth rocks and hazards in general, so you gotta run boots on it for defensive sets, but it could have a place on balance and stall, fire/dragon is a good type combination offensively, and its defensive profile is bad either, I see this thing being a solid OU mon for a good time
cyclonez_ said:
Also, uh, with the Tera Stellar Blast lowering Special Attack and being not resistable... get your Serperior games in while you can. Uh oh
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When I saw that it continued to lower your attack and special attack...yeah Serperior is not gonna be balanced or just turn into matchup moth numero dos
 
Honestly, I wonder it stellar tera was in the game from the start, would it be more or less likely to be banned in the first tera suspect? Not exactly asking, because this is so new we most likely don't know for sure, just food for thought.
 
Napoli Burns said:
sad we got a new spinner in terapagos and is probably too broken for ou; gholdengo should be the second pokemon to be banned, too much hazards
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Terastal Terapagos doesn't really seem TOO bad honestly, it's ability is basically just slightly souped up Multiscale. Stellar Form is absolutely bonkers, yeah, but that can be fixed by just removing Terapagos' ability to Terastallize-somewhat like how banning a Mega in Gen 7 just meant preventing the base mon from holding it's Mega Stone.
 
Napoli Burns said:
sad we got a new spinner in terapagos and is probably too broken for ou; gholdengo should be the second pokemon to be banned, too much hazards

exca can't handle so much good spikers like deobros and gliscor
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I think only the Stellar form is too broken for OU. The terastal form won't be able to abuse Tera Starstorm like it's Stellar form can and without that or it's second chance to set up with Stellar form HP boost it's just a fat normal type spinner with a better multiscale and sick coverage.

But the Stellar form I think will be way too strong to stay.
 
YNM said:
View attachment 580246
Gouging Fire @ Loaded Dice / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 88 HP / 168 Atk / 252 Spe ---> 373 HP / 308 Atk / 278 Def / 149 SpA / 222 SpD / 309 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Scale Shot
- Morning Sun

This mon on Sun teams sounds insane. With the Protosynthesis Speed/Atk Boost, Sun-boosted STAB Flare Blitz, Dragon Dance, Morning Sun to recover 75% of your health and an amazing Offensive (resisted by only 8 mons in the entire game) and Defensive (weak to 3 Types, resists 5) Typing, this thing is guaranteed to be good IMO.
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This thing is gonna tear OU a new asshole holy shit
 
Captain Marshadow said:
Terastal Terapagos doesn't really seem TOO bad honestly, it's ability is basically just slightly souped up Multiscale. Stellar Form is absolutely bonkers, yeah, but that can be fixed by just removing Terapagos' ability to Terastallize-somewhat like how banning a Mega in Gen 7 just meant preventing the base mon from holding it's Mega Stone.
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That would require a policy review thread at the very least, we didn't ban Hearthflame from terastalizing and that was a different form as well. With a mega ban you're removing an item from a tier, here you are telling a Pokémon it can't do something every Pokémon can do. If it ends up being that only the stellar form is broken it's at least worth looking into if the standard form makes the game better, but overall I don't think it's that simple
 
Cuddly said:
Duraludon had problems in previous Gen 8 with it being PUBL, and despite the 600 BST I only see Archaludon going up a few tiers. Its stats were only slightly buffed in each area, all but Spe, which is expected since it's a bridge. Aside from Electro Shot being slightly better Meteor Beam, and its abilities being slightly better, Archaludon doesn't seem that great.
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Nah, it's abilities are way better. Heck, even sturdy is better than light or heavy metal, which are mostly useless. Stamina allows it to threaten sweeps with body press and with wish support, it can beat gambit, as it gets iron defense and attacking it boosts it defense even more. Pair that with tera fighting, and it is one of the best gambit counters.
Archaludon @ leftovers
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 204 SpA / 252 Def / 52 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Thunderbolt
Literally counters the common tera types too, so yeah. Mecha godzilla fans rise up
 
Heatranator said:
Honestly, I wonder it stellar tera was in the game from the start, would it be more or less likely to be banned in the first tera suspect? Not exactly asking, because this is so new we most likely don't know for sure, just food for thought.
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I don't see it moving the needle much. On one hand, Stellar Tera removes the hard commitment that makes tera require skillful use.
On the other hand it increases the reliability of counterplay so it's less overbearing.

Tbh most people would just use it to reinforce their own biases, similar to the "tera has resulted in 20 bans" rhetoric
 
Dirge got scorching sands AND a fairy move???? Dirgechads are eating well tonight. Primarina is honestly looking to be really interesting as well, liquid voice makes psychic noise able to smack walls that tera dark for whatever reason, and it has powerful moonblasts to smack those dark types anyways. I think hydrapple definitely has a lot of avenues of exploration, it's honestly a better tangrowth (in some ways). Much better overall bulk, stronger stab options, arguably better coverage, the ability to spread sleep with yawn, and a setup move in nasty plot. It has alot more resistances too, but also much more weaknesses, so it's efficacy compared to tangrowth is still up in the air honestly. I can see it being UU, maybe RU, with a solid niche in OU, but a buffed weavile and other triple axel mons like meowscarada are gonna eat this thang alive
 
ianlazerbeem said:
That would require a policy review thread at the very least, we didn't ban Hearthflame from terastalizing and that was a different form as well. With a mega ban you're removing an item from a tier, here you are telling a Pokémon it can't do something every Pokémon can do. If it ends up being that only the stellar form is broken it's at least worth looking into if the standard form makes the game better, but overall I don't think it's that simple
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Hearthflame is a unique form in itself that was broken w/o Tera. Terapagos' Stellar form is also unique from its other two. Furthermore, there's precedent with Rayquaza and Zygarde
 
Cuddly said:
yogQVlw.png

Ok how is this thing legal?
I know I know BST isn't EVERYTHING, yeah Slaking and Regigigas are exceptions, but this is Zygarde 2.0.
700 BST without any major holes like low Def like Hoopa-U has is absurd. Only 1 stat below 100 which is speed, which is fine because this thing has 160/110/110 bulk. In addition, it has STAB on every move, a 120 BP move that'll become typeless and hits everything neutrally, and pretty decently high SpA with Calm Mind.
Oh and if that wasn't good enough, its base form can tank a hit to set up once thanks to Tera Shell, then go into it busted form.
I got to ask WHY anyone in the council thought starting this thing out in OU was a good idea?

5UYLl7E.png

Duraludon had problems in previous Gen 8 with it being PUBL, and despite the 600 BST I only see Archaludon going up a few tiers. Its stats were only slightly buffed in each area, all but Spe, which is expected since it's a bridge. Aside from Electro Shot being slightly better Meteor Beam, and its abilities being slightly better, Archaludon doesn't seem that great.

HuVkpKF.png

Hydrapple is likely going to be the best of the applin line and solid in lower tiers, but a slow Grass Dragon type is not something that'll last in OU, despite its potentially strong Gravity Beam- I mean Fickle Beam move. Regenerator + 106/110/80 bulk is definitely nice, but it has plenty of weaknesses to common attacking types like Fairy, Flying, and of course Ice
Xj5SOaM.png

Gourging Fire is pretty unique as its the only Paradox Pokemon with a signature move that's also a status move. Additionally while Walking Wake and Raging Bolt were changed significantly from their modern Jhoto counterparts, GF has really similar stat distribution to Entei, but better. Having Dragon STAB and Dragon Dance, and also a burn version of Baneful Bunker (unfortunately doesn't protect from status move), GF can be pretty flexible. Spec it into defensive role using its excellent bulk, or spec into being a set up sweeper, or all out attacker. It can do a lot more than its modern counterpart.
U0AzF5x.png

Raging Bolt falls inline more with what Walking Wake did for Suicune, where it dramatically changes the stats Raikou has. It's closer to Farigiraf, except its much bulkier, faster, and stronger. If it wasn't for Thunderclap. this thing would definitely be lower tiers for sure, possibly UU. With special electric version of Sucker Punch, this thing could definitely be decent in OU. No Nasty Plot or Supreme Overlord, but it does get Calm Mind and Protosynthesis to abuse Thunderclap with. It's coming off its 137 SpA after all.
wyD363y.png

Firstly, worst design out of all the new Pokemon. Body looks like a Sphere they added to unity and face looks like Cobson.
Second, it's probably best new Pokemon statwise. It's as fast a Ribombee, it'd be the second fastest Future Paradox Pokemon, has pretty good Atk, and even decent bulk. Only part holding it back is its typing, which is not so great. It also has lack luster Psychic STAB having Zen Headbutt as its best move, but otherwise looks great.
Pd1Q5FK.png

Iron Crowns is kind of disappointing. Its stat distribution is pretty average, like a less extreme version of Raging Bolt. But unlike Raging Bolt, its signature move is much more niche. Tachyon Cutter is similar to Dragon Darts in singles, even having the same base power. It obviously is strong for sure, but not as special as Thunderclap. It does have a unique niche in beating Glimmora as a lead and with Scarf can beat Ribombee as well, so it has that going for it. It's also a steel type with good bulk, which is always nice, and has the insanely busted Psychic Noise. It looks pretty solid all things considered.
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Terapagos-stellar doesn't get stab on all its moves. In full:2x boost to normal type moves (e.g.double edge), 1.2x boost to all other moves (tera starstorm including).the boost is permanent. Tera starstorm is neutral against targets, se against tera'd mons. Normal type remains for terapagos, as far as defensive attribute is concerned, after tera stellar
 
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Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tera Shell
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rock Polish
- Calm Mind
- Tera Starstorm
- Earth Power/Thunderbolt/Dazzling Gleam

Double Dance Terapagos set. Utilize Multiscale in base form to resist any move turn 1 and use Rock Polish to patch up slow speed. After 1 turn of Rock Polish, it outspeed the likes of Scarf Darkrai. (590 vs 574). This is followed by Calm Mind next turn, after which Tera Starstorm hits every single pokemon for neutral damage. Its diverse coverage moves are all boosted by 1.2x, which makes it a dangerous sweeper thanks to 130 base SpA. Bonus: Tera Starstorm hits all opponent tera pokemon for super effective damage, so good luck trying to tera in front of it.

Team support: It appreciates screens which allows it to setup freely, and it will be hard to stop given its 160/110/110 bulk.
 
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Stellar form Terapagos is going, no way in hell this zygarde-complete looking turtle is staying OU, no way in Hell
Speaking of turtles, I wonder how blastoise will fair in the meta, it may have to compete with tentacruel as a spinner, but it isn't weak to gliscor's earthquake while still having a decent matchup into ghold.
Probably gonna fall to UU but who knows
 
scarletnetto said:
Terapagos-stellar doesn't get stab on all its moves. In full:2x boost to normal type moves (e.g.double edge), 1.2x boost to all other moves (tera starstorm including).the boost is permanent. Tera starstorm is neutral against targets, se against tera'd mons. Normal type remains for terapagos, as far as defensive attribute is concerned, after tera stellar
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Saw that after I posted and it's still frankly busted. It's more offensively inclined Zygarde-Complete. Way more fire power for slightly less bulk on a Pokemon that is incredibly bulky already.
 
June Heat said:
So with a wealth of new hazard setters brought to us, and the comparably small amount of new hazard removal introduced, can we pls look at Gholdengo first? It's just gonna get worst, and we all know it.
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We did also just get some more moves to handle Ghold. The new fire move (whose name is escaping me), will be 150bp if it switches into a defog on Talonflame (who probably won't be OU anyways) or other moves that it can ignore (of which there are A LOT). Excadrill is back with spin, as is Tentacruel, who I think will be a very good Ghold check (if it doesn't have tbolt, which some don't). Add more knock off users, and the plethora of OU calibre dark and ghost types, and I think Ghold might be more balanced. Once again, we'll just have to wait and see in practice though.
 
ianlazerbeem said:
That would require a policy review thread at the very least, we didn't ban Hearthflame from terastalizing and that was a different form as well. With a mega ban you're removing an item from a tier, here you are telling a Pokémon it can't do something every Pokémon can do. If it ends up being that only the stellar form is broken it's at least worth looking into if the standard form makes the game better, but overall I don't think it's that simple
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We do have some precedent regarding that with Rayquaza not being allowed to Mega Evolve even if it had Dragon Ascent, but this is def something for the policy team to analyze and not me.

Moving to Stellar-Tera as a whole though, it’s remarkably average all things considered. A weaker gem boost (that doesn’t trigger Unburden/Acro) seems a bit weaker compared to the defensive potential of normal Tera so I don’t think it’ll be that used. But who knows.
 
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Gondre19Wedj said:
We did also just get some more moves to handle Ghold. The new fire move (whose name is escaping me), will be 150bp if it switches into a defog on Talonflame (who probably won't be OU anyways) or other moves that it can ignore (of which there are A LOT). Excadrill is back with spin, as is Tentacruel, who I think will be a very good Ghold check (if it doesn't have tbolt, which some don't). Add more knock off users, and the plethora of OU calibre dark and ghost types, and I think Ghold might be more balanced. Once again, we'll just have to wait and see in practice though.
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Tusk gets Temper Flare and honestly it's heat
4 Atk Great Tusk Temper Flare (move failed) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Calcs aren't everything ofc, and it might have difficulty fitting it in on a moveset, but it can absolutely eviscerate air balloon gholdengo that switches in to an EQ or spin
 
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This guy is going to be ferocious.

Lead (Deoxys-Speed) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Whatever you want tbh
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe*
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Knock Off/Psycho Boost/Psychic Noise/Mirror Coat/etc
The fastest spikes, the fastest taunt. In a tier where access to defog is already limited, Deoxys-Speed's unparalleled ability to set hazards up and fast makes it incredibly facilitating for hyper offense. It might benefit from the new gen 9 move psychic noise as well, and of course has access to its very large psycho boost, knock off, and a host of other niche moves.

Nasty Plot (Deoxys-Speed) @ Life Orb/Expert Belt/Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Electric/Ice/Again, whatever you want
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe*
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic/Psycho Boost/Psychic Noise/Psyshock
- Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Energy Ball
- Tera Blast/Recover
This is an equally fearsome set that generates significant pressure. Tons of options, underestimated power (+2 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Electric Deoxys-Speed Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hatterene: 300-355 (94.3 - 111.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO), and very hard to outpace. Access to bolt/beam coverage is further amplified by offensive tera types. Calm mind is also usable, and this thing can get very out of hand very quickly.

Because of access to trick, something like a tera psychic choice specs psycho boost set to maximize psychic damage is definitely foreseeable as well ( 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Deoxys-Speed Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 520-612 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO). When we're OHKOing Dondozo with non-SE attacks, you know things are getting real.

As nasty as this guy is, his greatest strength for 6 generations is his ability to facilitate other guys. We will be seeing Deoxys-Speed directly contributing to the other S tier pokemon becoming even more oppressive on hyper-offense teams. Prediction: Deoxys-Speed's time in the tier is limited. Use it while you can, it will be a lot of fun!
 
Casteliacone said:
Tusk gets Temper Flare and honestly it's heat
4 Atk Great Tusk Temper Flare (move failed) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Calcs aren't everything ofc, and it might have difficulty fitting it in on a moveset, but it can absolutely eviscerate air balloon gholdengo that switches in to an EQ or spin
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Yes. Thank you for clearly stating what I was trying to say with my word vomit.

As for the dark types, Darkrai was just let into the tier. Weavile will surely have higher viability (though I wouldn't exactly expect many Weaviles vs Gholds), and Meowscarada may have increased viability with Triple Axle to handle its checks. Kingambit will continue to be a top 2 mon in the tier. Dragapult can revenge kill with chip, Gouging Fire will probably just nuke Ghold to oblivion, and Volc is back as well to help handle it.

Quick Note: Calcs say Entei, but I put in correct base stat totals, as Gouging Fire is not in the calculator yet
Also, Stomping Tantrum Fire, not ground for Temper Flare
252 Atk Entei Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 236-278 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 142-168 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 270-320 (85.7 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 127-151 (38.3 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 377-447 (119.6 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh Yeah, Ghold will probably be fine.
 
Why the fuck did yall let stellar terapagos into ou that shit is zygarde 200%

It would be cool if Tera was just specifically banned on terapagos, seeing as terastalization on it is like a form change similar to mega evolution or ultra necrozma. Normal (terastal) form would undoubtedly be a healthy addition, packing cm and rock polish for setup sets. Also has rapid Spin which is cool move since it has enough positive qualities to be one of the best hazard removers in the meta.

Something like

Terapagos @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Tera Shell
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tera Starstorm
- Earth Power/Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Outspeeds max speed ghold by a single point and 2hkoes with the coverage move of choice, vs bulkier sets spdef ghold is 2hkoed after Spikes chip.

Anyway hope stellar terapagos is banned and the normal 600 bst form can find a way to stay in the tier.

Archaludon seems like a very well rounded Pokemon, could be a nice offensive SR user on rain teams, AV could also be an option I guess idk the potential is big and I think it will be a dynamic and nonlinear dragon like kommo-o in gens past.

Hydrapple is another very interesting pick, probably won't be ou but it has potential for an av user, since its bulk is very good and it has a nice typing, with Ground, electric, Water, and Grass resists. NP recover sets might pop up but those sets are likely too slow to do much.

Iron Crown looks better than what people are saying tbh, scarf sets could fit on offensive teams as a countermeasure to offense, tachyon Cutter is an excellent move as is volt Switch abd Psychic noise. Scarf is all I see it running viable tbh other than boots future sight maybe but that's probably not going to be good.

Iron Boulder is going to be a cool pokemon, despite its shit typing it outspeeds Iron Valiant, has SD + Booster speed, and has psyshic stab as well as a 100% accurate strong rock type move. It will most likely find a place in the metagame.
 
first post in da new metagame thread, how does everyone think :latios: will fare in this new metagame? i believe he could actually be very good this gen thanks to the advent of offensive tera and the buffs he got to his movepool (gaining flip turn, luster purge buffs). with all that being said, i think he will take quite some time to pick up in usage/viability (since HO will likely run him over unfortunately) but once the tier settles down i think ihe could rise as an extremely powerful wallbreaker with choice specs. you could also run 3A + recover or choice scarf but i think specs is what really makes him shine. but how would you all rate his potential in OU?
 
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