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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
because nearly everyone is in agreement that we want that shit outta here as fast as possible, including the council. we all know how this test is going to end, but a quickban is off the table, so expediting the suspect is the next best option
This suspect was brought to you by NordVPN...
damn, the winters are so bad in canada that even songs about it are banned
Been using AV Slither on sun recently, I initially used max hp and spdef with adamant proto atk but it's ability to tank hits and just spam uturn impressed me so much I switched to careful proto spdef and god damn this thing has no fear of god. Shit like Bolt's thunderbolt is a 5hko and I've used it as my psycho boost switch in/check to moth at times.
On the topic of Kyurem, while it doesn't like mixed or physical it can easily handle special variants and especially the subtect variant people are complaining about as freeze dry does like 12% on a max roll, Uturn breaks any subs and you can't get frozen while the sun is up so it's pretty much the hardest counter you could get.
Honestly, it's impressed me so much that I'm wondering why AV Slither is not being used on even non-sun builds? Protosynthesis is nice but even outside of it, it's special bulk is ungodly. I think being a specially defensive pivot that doesn't really want to switch into the fairies, birds or moth is probably why people just default to Glowking but it's not like Slither outright loses to any of them, it can still easily eat a moonblast and uturn out (but not hurricane, shit does like 80%, fuck zapdos.)
On the flipside, Slither isn't fodder for darks or Tusk and can scare stuff like Wellspring out so it really feels like people just haven't explored it enough as an actual option, not being Hamu fodder is especially a big draw I think for some offensive teams that would like a spdef pivot but have a hard time justifiying Glowking for that reason.
Usually been just a low 1800's player so getting to #5 on ladder with it on my sun team has really made appreciate it, going to see if I can try to peak higher and continue to see if it's actually consistent over the next couple weeks then try out doing one of those RMT thingies (Slither won't be feature mon though
, 
)
Been using AV Slither on sun recently, I initially used max hp and spdef with adamant proto atk but it's ability to tank hits and just spam uturn impressed me so much I switched to careful proto spdef and god damn this thing has no fear of god. Shit like Bolt's thunderbolt is a 5hko and I've used it as my psycho boost switch in/check to moth at times.
On the topic of Kyurem, while it doesn't like mixed or physical it can easily handle special variants and especially the subtect variant people are complaining about as freeze dry does like 12% on a max roll, Uturn breaks any subs and you can't get frozen while the sun is up so it's pretty much the hardest counter you could get.
Honestly, it's impressed me so much that I'm wondering why AV Slither is not being used on even non-sun builds? Protosynthesis is nice but even outside of it, it's special bulk is ungodly. I think being a specially defensive pivot that doesn't really want to switch into the fairies, birds or moth is probably why people just default to Glowking but it's not like Slither outright loses to any of them, it can still easily eat a moonblast and uturn out (but not hurricane, shit does like 80%, fuck zapdos.)
On the flipside, Slither isn't fodder for darks or Tusk and can scare stuff like Wellspring out so it really feels like people just haven't explored it enough as an actual option, not being Hamu fodder is especially a big draw I think for some offensive teams that would like a spdef pivot but have a hard time justifiying Glowking for that reason.
Would it bother you if I asked for a Slither Wing team? I've been meaning to try it for a while now.
I don't want to quite give away the team yet as I'm still laddering with it/don't know if it's been finalized yet, I will eventually do an RMT with it though.
In the meanwhile, I can recommend Srn's sun team (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-sss-srns-sun-squad.3749857/) which also features a Slither Wing and looks really solid from what I can tell - the team I'm using definitely has more in common with it than any of the typical dragon spam sun's that you usually see. Only thing I'd say is maybe change the spread on Slither to max hp, max spdef adamant because I personally think the added bulk is worth having less power, but I usually use modest specs Wake to pressure Glowking a lot harder so it might be better to just take the team as is.
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clearly finch doesnt care about its users, even when i posted it in his own discord he didnt even come. How can i clear a suspect test without having the music from that to listen to!
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Ok but more on topic..
1. What makes heatran bad/very mid? offensively it feels pretty good at wearing teams down lets use this sample for ex. https://pokepast.es/482cedaec45f5ace where it has multiple entry points like cind, tink, while the team cannot really pivot around it well... RM sure can switch in but its a scarfer that is taking rocks + magma storm chip dmg god forbid it just gets eliminated thanks to tera.
Or this team https://pokepast.es/fb0e434de8244b90 that struggles to really switch into it and while not much outside of glowking gives it switch in opportunities it really seems to also appreciate the fact it can cause a lot of dmg if it comes in on a good double vs lets say a gambit switch in.
sure its B+ but i often hear how not good it is in OU
2. what makes alo so good despite w oger, raging bolt, freeze dry kyurem, knock + hazards, iron crown, and more... it feels like smth that just struggles against many of the top tiers and doesnt do much in return esp with w oger walling it forever, some pokemon just take very little and can take advantage of it, some mons can just take advantage of it not doing much in return (gliscor, h-samu, skarmory) and just setup spikes and use knock to accumulate a loto f chip
It’s literally the same length as the majority of the suspects this generation; we moved laddering deadlines from Sunday to Friday for most suspects a year ago so that votes end by Sunday for clean slates in tournament rounds/weeks.
Attachments
Zapdos and Moltres are both quite common and can punish Slither's contact moves. SubTect Kyurem can be paired with Moltres to put Slither in an awkward position in which every U-turn becomes risky.
Still, I think Slither Wing is a mon with a lot of potential and can be paired with partners that minimize its bad matchups.
My problem with Heatran is that it does nothing to anything that clicks a setup move on its switch in, and in this gen, that's basically all that gets clicked.
Admittedly I've only used SpD Heatran, but your special wall hard losing to Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Primarina, Walking Wake and literally anything with calm mind makes Heatran worthless as a special wall. Maybe other sets can be good, never tried them after how bad the SpD one is.
Speaking of, I wonder if Slither Wing can do Heatran's job. Special wall that clicks wisp on their physical switch in. At least it has U-turn to go into an encore mon vs calm minders.
My favourite thing about Slither Wing though is it's access to flare blitz. It unfreezes the user so Kyurem can't even hax you right.
Admittedly I've only used SpD Heatran, but your special wall hard losing to Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Gholdengo, Primarina, Walking Wake and literally anything with calm mind makes Heatran worthless as a special wall. Maybe other sets can be good, never tried them after how bad the SpD one is.
Speaking of, I wonder if Slither Wing can do Heatran's job. Special wall that clicks wisp on their physical switch in. At least it has U-turn to go into an encore mon vs calm minders.
My favourite thing about Slither Wing though is it's access to flare blitz. It unfreezes the user so Kyurem can't even hax you right.
keep reading until the end for 
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feels pretty great again right now to me. Not a lot in the tier is willing to get Knocked AND Wisped, and the things that don’t care (
) get Roared and pivoted out on (for getting Roared means Rocks chip and no PHeal that turn to reverse it). SpDef definitely feels better right now than PhysDef due to being bulky enough on the physical side due to Intimidate + Wisp + a good natural typing that has many key resistances to check physical threats. SpDef allows it to take strong hits that it doesn’t resist such as ’s Sludge Wave (26%) and Booster ’s Bolt (50%).
Notable partners include:
edit: forgot the set! silly me.
World Champ (Incineroar) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar
- Parting Shot
the other ones are obvious in why they would be used, but why is Keldeo doing things? what is it doing? is it just because it’s a strong spatker?based on my viewing of tournaments this weekend
Guys that are Kind Of Having A Moment:
Guys that are Trying To Have A Moment But Kinda Suck:
thoughts??
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feels pretty great again right now to me. Not a lot in the tier is willing to get Knocked AND Wisped, and the things that don’t care ( ) get Roared and pivoted out on (for getting Roared means Rocks chip and no PHeal that turn to reverse it). SpDef definitely feels better right now than PhysDef due to being bulky enough on the physical side due to Intimidate + Wisp + a good natural typing that has many key resistances to check physical threats. SpDef allows it to take strong hits that it doesn’t resist such as ’s Sludge Wave (26%) and Booster ’s Bolt (50%).Notable partners include:
edit: forgot the set! silly me.
World Champ (Incineroar) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roar
- Parting Shot
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I'm still not 100% sure on the builders reasoning but its been spotted in a team that looks like this
In a lot of ways it ends up taking the same kind of places as Ogerpon-W with a few key differences, mainly hitting special as well so Zamazenta doesn't like to switch in, having a water type pivot move so it does a bit more damage, and no grass type means sludge bomb isnt a sure revenge kill from Darkrai. It can probably opt to run modest since it doesnt outspeed moth, ogerpon or valiant even with timid, and Enamorus is often scarfed anyway. Obviously opens up more of an electric weakness but its not like ogerpon likes taking thunderclap anyway.
In a post-kyurem meta, I really wouldn't support any more bans apart from tera blast. However, there are still some mons that have suffered the cruel and unjustified outrage of the masses for nearly two years at this point...
These innocent souls should be out of the question for a suspect:
- It's 2024. Gambit is not broken, people. The meta has adapted so hard to this mon, it's unreal. Encore and roar on every team? Zama on every team? Lando on every team? Cheap moltres? Tusk, which is still on a million teams since it's the only removal? Skarm? Dozo, which can absolute worst case still emergency tera fight vs tera dark black glasses 5 fallen gambit? And no, mental herb gambit will not exist, and even if it does, it's terrible.
- This mon is completely fine. I think we’ve figured out that ghold isn’t the main culprit behind the hazard meta, it’s just that we have literally 0 good removal options + the setters are insane (1200 bst moose, scorpion that never dies, and the stupid otter u lead and click one move with). Offensively, we’ve always known it doesn’t have too much immediate power and has a pretty bad speed tier. But nowadays, it can often be a liability when getting a kill with this mon enables ur opponent to bring in shit like moon and moth and set up for free (unless ur cheap twave, but this set is pretty inoffensive anyway). Defensively, this mon is fine to check even for fat unless it runs a fishy set like psyshock which is generally terrible into the rest of the metagame. Don’t think there’s much to elaborate on, it’s probably in the bottom half of mons I don’t like on team preview.
- It's not even that it can make teambuilding a breeze by providing speed control, checking almost every physical attacker in the tier, and possibly being the best dark resist in ou history. We don't have to make this argument that borders on 'broken checks broken' because it's straight up not broken, and has way too much counterplay to be anywhere near banworthy.
We can pretty much disregard balance or anything fatter because Zama isn't really doing much into those since they usually bring around 3+ mons that together beat every zama set there is. If something like boots or band zama (which is bad imo) breaks your balance or fat team, you got outplayed and deserve to lose, end of story. Even bulky offense can fit moltres, gking, scarf enam, fairy garg, bold ghold, there's actually so much it's insane.
Anyway, zama is a mon that offense (by offense, i mean playstyles so fast they can't fit mons like moltres or zapdos) *should* be dedicating either tera or more than one mon to beat, since it's a mon entirely dedicated to the offense matchup. It would be quite bad if it usually just traded 1v1 in the matchup it actually does something in, no? Offense still has a ton of counterplay available, such as booster moth (which is mandatory on HO imo), encore val, encore dnite, prim (1v1s), BU poison tusk (1v1s if no roar or last mon), deo speed, enam (if no slam), or even okidogi. Or, you could just slap tera ghost on a mon that could feasibly beat zama given a body press immunity.
It doesn't matter if these mons don't consistently beat it 1v1 or throughout a game, as beating zama *should* be a team effort for offense teams. This team effort isn't unreasonably constraining either, as once the dog goes down, all your physical threats are enabled.
Even then, offense is flexible enough such that it can fit mons like cm sinistcha and bold ghold, which severely limit zama all by themselves. A ban may be the biggest L in the history of this tier, which unfortunately isn't out of the question since this mon absolutely stomps low-mid ladder and players in that area are prob able to get reqs if they try.
On value based arguments
I could have made value based arguments for all 3 of these mons, since all 3 are essential to balancing the current metagame, but I didn’t. In general, value based arguments should be discarded in both directions. If your argument revolves around ‘but what value does it bring to the tier,’ you’re pretty much just using a reversed version of the broken checks broken argument. If value should not be a reason to keep a mon in, then it should not be a reason to keep a mon out either. And what even is value? Anything that makes it easier for u to use ur favourite team?
These innocent souls should be out of the question for a suspect:
We can pretty much disregard balance or anything fatter because Zama isn't really doing much into those since they usually bring around 3+ mons that together beat every zama set there is. If something like boots or band zama (which is bad imo) breaks your balance or fat team, you got outplayed and deserve to lose, end of story. Even bulky offense can fit moltres, gking, scarf enam, fairy garg, bold ghold, there's actually so much it's insane.
Anyway, zama is a mon that offense (by offense, i mean playstyles so fast they can't fit mons like moltres or zapdos) *should* be dedicating either tera or more than one mon to beat, since it's a mon entirely dedicated to the offense matchup. It would be quite bad if it usually just traded 1v1 in the matchup it actually does something in, no? Offense still has a ton of counterplay available, such as booster moth (which is mandatory on HO imo), encore val, encore dnite, prim (1v1s), BU poison tusk (1v1s if no roar or last mon), deo speed, enam (if no slam), or even okidogi. Or, you could just slap tera ghost on a mon that could feasibly beat zama given a body press immunity.
It doesn't matter if these mons don't consistently beat it 1v1 or throughout a game, as beating zama *should* be a team effort for offense teams. This team effort isn't unreasonably constraining either, as once the dog goes down, all your physical threats are enabled.
Even then, offense is flexible enough such that it can fit mons like cm sinistcha and bold ghold, which severely limit zama all by themselves. A ban may be the biggest L in the history of this tier, which unfortunately isn't out of the question since this mon absolutely stomps low-mid ladder and players in that area are prob able to get reqs if they try.
On value based arguments
I could have made value based arguments for all 3 of these mons, since all 3 are essential to balancing the current metagame, but I didn’t. In general, value based arguments should be discarded in both directions. If your argument revolves around ‘but what value does it bring to the tier,’ you’re pretty much just using a reversed version of the broken checks broken argument. If value should not be a reason to keep a mon in, then it should not be a reason to keep a mon out either. And what even is value? Anything that makes it easier for u to use ur favourite team?
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These three mons are the core of the meta at this point. Ban any one of them and the tier will change drastically. I also find it funny that these three are kind of like Rock-Paper-Scissors to each other.In a post-kyurem meta, I really wouldn't support any more bans apart from tera blast. However, there are still some mons that have suffered the cruel and unjustified outrage of the masses for nearly two years at this point...
These innocent souls should be out of the question for a suspect:
- It's 2024. Gambit is not broken, people. The meta has adapted so hard to this mon, it's unreal. Encore and roar on every team? Zama on every team? Lando on every team? Cheap moltres? Tusk, which is still on a million teams since it's the only removal? Skarm? Dozo, which can absolute worst case still emergency tera fight vs tera dark black glasses 5 fallen gambit? And no, mental herb gambit will not exist, and even if it does, it's terrible.
- This mon is completely fine. I think we’ve figured out that ghold isn’t the main culprit behind the hazard meta, it’s just that we have literally 0 good removal options + the setters are insane (1200 bst moose, scorpion that never dies, and the stupid otter u lead and click one move with). Offensively, we’ve always known it doesn’t have too much immediate power and has a pretty bad speed tier. But nowadays, it can often be a liability when getting a kill with this mon enables ur opponent to bring in shit like moon and moth and set up for free (unless ur cheap twave, but this set is pretty inoffensive anyway). Defensively, this mon is fine to check even for fat unless it runs a fishy set like psyshock which is generally terrible into the rest of the metagame. Don’t think there’s much to elaborate on, it’s probably in the bottom half of mons I don’t like on team preview.
- It's not even that it can make teambuilding a breeze by providing speed control, checking almost every physical attacker in the tier, and possibly being the best dark resist in ou history. We don't have to make this argument that borders on 'broken checks broken' because it's straight up not broken, and has way too much counterplay to be anywhere near banworthy.
We can pretty much disregard balance or anything fatter because Zama isn't really doing much into those since they usually bring around 3+ mons that together beat every zama set there is. If something like boots or band zama (which is bad imo) breaks your balance or fat team, you got outplayed and deserve to lose, end of story.
Anyway, zama is a mon that offense *should* be dedicating either tera or more than one mon to beat, since it's a mon entirely dedicated to the offense matchup. It would be quite bad if it usually just traded 1v1 in the matchup it actually does something in, no? Offense still has a ton of counterplay available, such as booster moth (which is mandatory on HO imo), encore val, encore dnite, prim (1v1s), BU poison tusk (1v1s if no roar or last mon), deo speed, enam (if no slam), or even okidogi. Or, you could just slap tera ghost on a mon that could feasibly beat zama given a body press immunity.
It doesn't matter if these mons don't consistently beat it 1v1 or throughout a game, as beating zama *should* be a team effort for offense teams. This team effort isn't unreasonably constraining either, as once the dog goes down, all your physical threats are enabled.
Even then, offense is flexible enough such that it can fit mons like cm sinistcha and bold ghold, which severely limit zama all by themselves. A ban may be the biggest L in the history of this tier, which unfortunately isn't out of the question since this mon absolutely stomps low-mid ladder and players in that area are prob able to get reqs if they try.
On value based arguments
I could have made value based arguments for all 3 of these mons, since all 3 are essential to balancing the current metagame, but I didn’t. In general, value based arguments should be discarded in both directions. If your argument revolves around ‘but what value does it bring to the tier,’ you’re pretty much just using a reversed version of the broken checks broken argument. If value should not be a reason to keep a mon in, then it should not be a reason to keep a mon out either. And what even is value? Anything that makes it easier for u to use ur favourite team?
Got reminded of Adamant Max ATK Choice Band Zama again and took it for a spin, jesus christ seeing it 2HK Zama with tera is upsetting. I'm not even sure I needed Tera for it due to the sheer damage on it. Definitely my next pocket project to fuck with, thank you Tera Blast for letting me turn this monster into whatever I want.
Checking the Suspect thread and seeing the fearful talk about ZapTingKing cores again is giving me flashbacks to the first Gouging Suspect thread, for multiple reasons. What I find curious about this argument is that if this Core is so busted that it takes something like Kyurem or Gouging to hold it down, why is it only brought up much in suspect defense for the "don't ban this because then this gets common" context instead of ever seeing it in a main-meta talk, even if less dominant?
It’s a bad argument used to circumvent the lack of actual counterplay that would normally take the forefront in a DNB argument (the issue being, of course, there is a true lack of counterplay and they just have to resort to other things in this case).
Whoever said that SubTect Kyurem takes no skill to play in the Kyurem Suspect Thread was right. I just built a basic team for laddering and its giving me so much free ELO.
I dunno if max speed Raging Bolt is a legitimate set, but I just faced one that outsped my Kyurem on what I assume is in response to this menace running around on the tier.
I dunno if max speed Raging Bolt is a legitimate set, but I just faced one that outsped my Kyurem on what I assume is in response to this menace running around on the tier.
max speed Modest is a thing, Timid not so much. I don’t think I’ve seen Timid, nor would I expect to. I can’t think of any speed tiers that breaks into over Modest.
raging bolt does like speed for other stuff besides kyurem—being able to outspeed gliscor, which has the same speed as kyurem, is a pretty compelling reason to run at least 164 speed on it
that being said, yes, subtect kyurem is basically a free express ticket up the ladder
trust me bros if you ban this [insert currently suspect tested pokemon here] we will actually
RED ALERT (SIRENS BLARE)
(GUNSHOT RINGS)
WILL GO TO SHIT!
if we BAN KYUREM
then FAT WILL GET BETTER!!! CLEFABLE 
GALAR BOTTOM TEXXT 100 BILLION STALLED
I'm going to give my quick scatterbrained thoughts on some particular meta-threats and mons I've seen discussed here lately because... well, yeah. Haven't had too much time to toy around in the meta as of late, but got a little time in recently.
We really need more fairy types.
Darkrai's fun, definitely a solid attacker with plenty of straightforward options. I like Darkrai's presence in the metagame, definitely not overpowered in my view.
I never understood why this rocky boi was underestimated recently - it's still phenomenal and always has been. You need to prepare for it otherwise you're going to get salted.
It's annoying but it's fine, I feel that its common weaknesses and underwhelming speed keep it in check. Yeah it's got some pretty nice power but nothing overtly special or overwhelming.
Still hate this thing with a burning passion and I feel the metagame would be better without it.
Not broken, will never be broken. The last time it was anywhere near close to broken was in the DLC1 metagame and even that was a big if.
I do believe this Pokemon's presence is a net negative for the metagame as it constricts teambuilding. There are options to handle each of its sets, but I find myself preparing for Kyurem more than any other mon in the metagame right now (plus I feel that if Kyurem gets banned, there's a higher chance of being looked at in the future).
I feel like Bolt's having a bit of a harder time right now, but he's still pretty damn cool. Neat albeit predictable mon with some easy workarounds.
Easily one of my favorite Pokemon in the metagame. Not broken by any means, the meta would be actively worse if Zamazenta was removed from it. Keep doggo boi in, please. Best glue since Lando-T
We really need more fairy types.
Darkrai's fun, definitely a solid attacker with plenty of straightforward options. I like Darkrai's presence in the metagame, definitely not overpowered in my view.
I never understood why this rocky boi was underestimated recently - it's still phenomenal and always has been. You need to prepare for it otherwise you're going to get salted.
It's annoying but it's fine, I feel that its common weaknesses and underwhelming speed keep it in check. Yeah it's got some pretty nice power but nothing overtly special or overwhelming.
Still hate this thing with a burning passion and I feel the metagame would be better without it.
Not broken, will never be broken. The last time it was anywhere near close to broken was in the DLC1 metagame and even that was a big if.
I do believe this Pokemon's presence is a net negative for the metagame as it constricts teambuilding. There are options to handle each of its sets, but I find myself preparing for Kyurem more than any other mon in the metagame right now (plus I feel that if Kyurem gets banned, there's a higher chance of
being looked at in the future).I feel like Bolt's having a bit of a harder time right now, but he's still pretty damn cool. Neat albeit predictable mon with some easy workarounds.
Easily one of my favorite Pokemon in the metagame. Not broken by any means, the meta would be actively worse if Zamazenta was removed from it. Keep doggo boi in, please. Best glue since Lando-T
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