Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

I'm going to give my quick scatterbrained thoughts on some particular meta-threats and mons I've seen discussed here lately because... well, yeah. Haven't had too much time to toy around in the meta as of late, but got a little time in recently.

:clefable:
We really need more fairy types.

:darkrai:
Darkrai's fun, definitely a solid attacker with plenty of straightforward options. I like Darkrai's presence in the metagame, definitely not overpowered in my view.

:garganacl:
I never understood why this rocky boi was underestimated recently - it's still phenomenal and always has been. You need to prepare for it otherwise you're going to get salted.

:gholdengo:
It's annoying but it's fine, I feel that its common weaknesses and underwhelming speed keep it in check. Yeah it's got some pretty nice power but nothing overtly special or overwhelming.

:gliscor:
Still hate this thing with a burning passion and I feel the metagame would be better without it.

:kingambit:
Not broken, will never be broken. The last time it was anywhere near close to broken was in the DLC1 metagame and even that was a big if.

:kyurem:
I do believe this Pokemon's presence is a net negative for the metagame as it constricts teambuilding. There are options to handle each of its sets, but I find myself preparing for Kyurem more than any other mon in the metagame right now (plus I feel that if Kyurem gets banned, there's a higher chance of :gliscor: being looked at in the future).

:raging bolt:
I feel like Bolt's having a bit of a harder time right now, but he's still pretty damn cool. Neat albeit predictable mon with some easy workarounds.

:zamazenta:
Easily one of my favorite Pokemon in the metagame. Not broken by any means, the meta would be actively worse if Zamazenta was removed from it. Keep doggo boi in, please. Best glue since Lando-T​
 
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aww phooey, it should've been Harder to Breathe.

anyways, how shit's the meta now?

EDIT: christ i'm glad i rejoined now rather than what, last week? unban volc and my life is yours', etc.
 
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“i don’t wanna play in a zapkinglu or gliscor metagame for even 2 weeks!!” “but stall will become too much!!” brother THIS is how the metagame will stay if nothing gets banned
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Oh if only Electrode got Rapid Spin. Discount Regieleki could've happened. Instead, all we have is Cyclizar for speed, and that's a one trick pony without Shed Tail (with it's a two trick pony). Everything else either gets bodied by the meta cores, or is Terapagos and thus gone.

Why are we constrained to Tusk and Treads for our spins?
 
KamenOH said:
Oh if only Electrode got Rapid Spin. Discount Regieleki could've happened. Instead, all we have is Cyclizar for speed, and that's a one trick pony without Shed Tail (with it's a two trick pony). Everything else either gets bodied by the meta cores, or is Terapagos and thus gone.

Why are we constrained to Tusk and Treads for our spins?
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Actually, I got a clunky mixed Cyclizar set that can spin and beat Ghold in two different ways.

Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Double-Edge
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Overheat

There are a number of other niche options that can be used for hazard clear like Geezing, Quaquavel, and Talonflame. Occasionally, one will fit on a team.

In general, gen 9 has a lot more tools for hazards than we give credit for. But dealing with hazards without boots requires a primary remover that beats/gets past Ghold or a primary remover and a secondary anti-hazard mon like Ace, Hatt, or another remover. Even Glimm can qualify if it is in addition to something else. HO can often get away with a little less than that.

The biggest issue for hazards being so sticky, in my opinion, is Hamurott. Without that thing, any faster Taunt mon would stifle the other hazard leads. Kleavor I guess also does this, but it's a much less problematic mon for OU.
 
I spent this morning trying Tsareena again, I'm just desperate for spinners with recovery. Full defense with whip/knock/synthesis/spin. My Mola teams are always trying to find mons that can switch in on W-ogerpon. She massively over performed in the games I played, but I can't imagine she'll survive against real spin blockers.

It also sucks that this set can't touch the various priority sweepers. Hi jump kick or low kick might let you shut down gambit and tera normal Dragonite sweeps.
 
TurquoiseLink said:
I spent this morning trying Tsareena again, I'm just desperate for spinners with recovery. Full defense with whip/knock/synthesis/spin. My Mola teams are always trying to find mons that can switch in on W-ogerpon. She massively over performed in the games I played, but I can't imagine she'll survive against real spin blockers.

It also sucks that this set can't touch the various priority sweepers. Hi jump kick or low kick might let you shut down gambit and tera normal Dragonite sweeps.
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Try Quaquaval. The duck can be a menace. Its defensive typing is pretty decent, it has Roost for longevity, and it can threaten some weird ass sweeps with Moxie and Aqua Step. Priority Sucker Punch doesn't mean much if Quaq can take any hit Kingambit hit comfortably and threaten the OHKO back. It resists rocks too, but you can go HDB to avoid spike pressure. I believe I saw somewhere that HO builds like running Mirror Herb to further punish setup sweepers. It also has Triple Axel/Knock Off/CC/SD, whatever you need. Stats other than attack are mid though so you gotta EV it very carefully to use its defensive capabilities.

Edit to avoid double posting

While Kyurem discussion is mostly relegated to the suspect thread, I'm back on the Gliscor hate train.

What counters are you guys running as of recently? I combed through its previous suspect test page and the consensus seemed to be it was broken because it forces progress. No solid counterplay available. Apparently it was never featured in the Victim of the Week thread either, and I got pissed enough to go as far as going to the smogon dex strategy section and no dice.

I know just outaggressing it works, but what other weird niche mons have you found? Tera included.

Reuniclus has worked fairly well for me, but Psychic-type in this Dark-infested meta is a nightmare, and SD sets just run it over. Clefable has a similar Magic Guard idea, but it still gets punked by SD and both are a little too passive initially and just invite in a counter with a layer of spikes and 24% healing regen on Gliscor to show for it.
 
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Roshino said:
.What counters are you guys running as of recently? I combed through its previous suspect test page and the consensus seemed to be it was broken because it forces progress. No solid counterplay available. Apparently it was never featured in the Victim of the Week thread either, and I got pissed enough to go as far as going to the smogon dex strategy section and no dice.

I know just outaggressing it works, but what other weird niche mons have you found? Tera included.

Reuniclus has worked fairly well for me, but Psychic-type in this Dark-infested meta is a nightmare, and SD sets just run it over. Clefable has a similar Magic Guard idea, but it still gets punked by SD and both are a little too passive initially and just invite in a counter with a layer of spikes and 24% healing regen on Gliscor to show for it.
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Neutralizing Gas Gweezing is a classic to turn the tables on Poison Heal. You can run Air Balloon for a safe entry on Earthquake or pair it with Grassy Terrain.
 
RS25802580 said:
Neutralizing Gas Gweezing is a classic to turn the tables on Poison Heal. You can run Air Balloon for a safe entry on Earthquake or pair it with Grassy Terrain.
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Yeah... I've considered it. The thing is, it seems like most Gliscor sets I've come across are running Knock Off so spike stacking will wear it down quite fast, and it's *really* difficult to keep spikes off the field because Gliscor has a winning match-up against spinners, and its bud Gholdengo just ruins defoggers. Similar with SD, once balloon is out with Facade/Knock Off, EQ just takes it out of the picture.

No matter how I spin it, Gliscor always wins hard unless there is significant outplay. Teambuilding can't seem to fully account for it because it can flowchart off everything with its regular Knock Off sets.
 
Roshino said:
Yeah... I've considered it. The thing is, it seems like most Gliscor sets I've come across are running Knock Off so spike stacking will wear it down quite fast, and it's *really* difficult to keep spikes off the field because Gliscor has a winning match-up against spinners, and its bud Gholdengo just ruins defoggers. Similar with SD, once balloon is out with Facade/Knock Off, EQ just takes it out of the picture.

No matter how I spin it, Gliscor always wins hard unless there is significant outplay. Teambuilding can't seem to fully account for it because it can flowchart off everything with its regular Knock Off sets.
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I'm happy to drop some more mainstream Gliscor counterplay.
:Corviknight: Probably the most reliable Gliscor switch-in. U-turn pivot to a teammate like Waterpon or Defog off its hazards (if no Ghold).
:Zamazenta: (Substitute): Turns Gliscor into a free setup opportunity with Sub to dodge Toxic. Combo with Tera Dark to beat common teammates like bulky Ghold.
:Garganacl: (Curse): Wins vs Gliscor in a 1v1. If Gliscor turns out to be SD then you can still Tera and beat it (assuming no crit). Gliscor's teammates usually don't want to take a Salt Cure either.

If your team is weak to Gliscor generally, you can incorporate other innovations including Ice Beam :Slowking-Galar: or Encore on :Ogerpon-Wellspring:

But overall I agree, Gliscor is a rather annoying mon that can force a lot of progress/steal games even against well-prepared teams...
 
RS25802580 said:
I'm happy to drop some more mainstream Gliscor counterplay.
:Corviknight: Probably the most reliable Gliscor switch-in. U-turn pivot to a teammate like Waterpon or Defog off its hazards (if no Ghold).
:Zamazenta: (Substitute): Turns Gliscor into a free setup opportunity with Sub to dodge Toxic. Combo with Tera Dark to beat common teammates like bulky Ghold.
:Garganacl: (Curse): Wins vs Gliscor in a 1v1. If Gliscor turns out to be SD then you can still Tera and beat it (assuming no crit). Gliscor's teammates usually don't want to take a Salt Cure either.

If your team is weak to Gliscor generally, you can incorporate other innovations including Ice Beam :Slowking-Galar: or Encore on :Ogerpon-Wellspring:

But overall I agree, Gliscor is a rather annoying mon that can force a lot of progress/steal games even against well-prepared teams...
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There are other things players can do against Gliscor:

Hex takes advantage of the fact it wants to status itself. This is a super underrated anti-Gliscor tech that only Tera Normal counters.
Taunt can stop basically everything Gliscor wants to do, such as to hazards, SD, toxic, and Protect stalling for more than a turn.
Psychic Noise counters healing. In general, this is a very useful and underrated move.
Neutralizing Gas also counters healing, although one needs to be careful of the Ground weakness.
Magic Bounce counters every Gliscor besides SD pretty hard on Hatt.
Skill Swap can force Gliscor out. It is commonly run on Ribombee, but is available on other mons.
Mighty Cleave is hard to fit since Iron Boulder isn't a real mon, but it does have some use against other Protect stalling sets like Kyurem or Garg.
Pecha Berry... A Gliscor could be cured with Trick Pecha Berry, which is borderline trolling, but still maybe plausible.

PP stalling is more complicated, but this can also work against Gliscor sometimes. At least it can with 16 PP moves like Protect, Toxic, and Earthquake. Getting rid of just one of these can change a lot. Corv is best for this since it has the immunities to Toxic and EQ, but even mons like Kyurem, D-speed, and Weavile can chip away a bit with Pressure when well positioned. If you have Corv and another Pressure mon, even if you are a more offensively oriented team, you can really force the issue on Gliscor's Protect scouting.
 
Bold School said:
Mighty Cleave is hard to fit since Iron Boulder isn't a real mon, but it does have some use against other Protect stalling sets like Kyurem or Garg.
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Hyperspace Fury is another move that bypasses Protect. Fun fact that some people might not know: Hyperspace Fury also bypasses Substitute and doesn't make contact!

Protect -:gliscor::alomomola::garganacl:
SubTect -:kyurem::suicune:
Sub -:iron moth::serperior:
:rocky helmet: -:landorus-therian::corviknight::skarmory:
Baneful Bunker -:toxapex:
Contact Punishers -:moltres::zapdos:

248+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 193-228 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

248+ Atk Choice Band Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 456-538 (112.8 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

banded Hoopa is frail though, so don't switch it into stuff like you would an AV set.

--:hoopa-unbound::hoopa-unbound::hoopa-unbound:--
 
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Morkal said:
I'm going to give my quick scatterbrained thoughts on some particular meta-threats and mons I've seen discussed here lately because... well, yeah. Haven't had too much time to toy around in the meta as of late, but got a little time in recently.

:zamazenta:
Easily one of my favorite Pokemon in the metagame. Not broken by any means, the meta would be actively worse if Zamazenta was removed from it. Keep doggo boi in, please. Best glue since Lando-T​
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Zamazenta is the broken checking all the other broken in the tier. If it goes then Kingambit goes and so on
 
Alright, I don’t play OU very much. But question, what’s the meta generally looking like right now?(Dominant mons and archetypes, recent suspect tests and/or bans and tier shifts) Last time I was really playing was in late July.
 
Bold School said:
There are other things players can do against Gliscor:

Hex takes advantage of the fact it wants to status itself. This is a super underrated anti-Gliscor tech that only Tera Normal counters.
Taunt can stop basically everything Gliscor wants to do, such as to hazards, SD, toxic, and Protect stalling for more than a turn.
Psychic Noise counters healing. In general, this is a very useful and underrated move.
Neutralizing Gas also counters healing, although one needs to be careful of the Ground weakness.
Magic Bounce counters every Gliscor besides SD pretty hard on Hatt.
Skill Swap can force Gliscor out. It is commonly run on Ribombee, but is available on other mons.
Mighty Cleave is hard to fit since Iron Boulder isn't a real mon, but it does have some use against other Protect stalling sets like Kyurem or Garg.
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Mighty Cleave is exclusively on a niche HO mon that still dies to gliscor i have no idea why you mentioned it here, all of the others are also incredibly niche and basically all (except for taunt) only found on 1-2 mons each (also half of them die to sd gliscor; hatt, pult, ribombee does literally nothing, gking without beam)
Bold School said:
Pecha Berry... A Gliscor could be cured with Trick Pecha Berry, which is borderline trolling, but still maybe plausible.

PP stalling is more complicated, but this can also work against Gliscor sometimes. At least it can with 16 PP moves like Protect, Toxic, and Earthquake. Getting rid of just one of these can change a lot. Corv is best for this since it has the immunities to Toxic and EQ, but even mons like Kyurem, D-speed, and Weavile can chip away a bit with Pressure when well positioned. If you have Corv and another Pressure mon, even if you are a more offensively oriented team, you can really force the issue on Gliscor's Protect scouting.
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aside from the extremely obviously bait trick pecha berry idea (also you are toxic orbing your own mon???)

all of your pp stall ideas also get blown up by sd gliscor variants with tera except for exactly idbp corv (probably the best in the meta rn), and especially so if it has knock or facade or both (knock facade sd tera normal is probably my favorite set)

im sorry but you are not pp stalling gliscor with deo s or weavile
 
burstslinky said:
aside from the extremely obviously bait trick pecha berry idea (also you are toxic orbing your own mon???)
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both ghold and clefable can operate perfectly fine with toxic orb, and clef gets protection from paralysis and freeze to boot. it's still kind of a shitpost option, but not quite as much of a shitpost as it looks like at first because it just straight-up neuters gliscor for the whole match, and tricking a pecha berry to something else is just handing them a useless item in most cases anyway (and statistically you're pretty likely to gain something generally useful like lefties or boots) so it's not complete deadweight even in the absence of gliscor
 
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DaddyBuzzwole said:
both ghold and clefable can operate perfectly fine with toxic orb, and clef gets protection from paralysis and freeze to boot. it's still kind of a shitpost option, but not quite as much of a shitpost as it looks like at first because it just straight-up neuters gliscor for the whole match, and tricking a pecha berry to something else is just handing them a useless item in most cases anyway so it's not complete deadweight even in the absence of gliscor
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NGl lum berry trick seems like super heat even if its just for scor considering how nuts scor is
 
Venuesaur said:
NGl lum berry trick seems like super heat even if its just for scor considering how nuts scor is
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lum berry's easier to proc, which makes it less useful for trick from both sides of the equation—it's more likely to get consumed before you can click trick, and it's more likely to be useful for a non-gliscor target, while pecha is more likely to end up as a dead-weight item for the opponent even if you trick it onto something that isn't gliscor
 
arnimacarni said:
You guys are never letting it go right
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I mean, it was really funny. But no. That isn't particularly why I listed it. The real reason I wanted to mention it was because it does technically work. Even though you are running a dead weight item, it is a possible tweak one could do for a Gliscor weak team. Maybe...
burstslinky said:
Mighty Cleave is exclusively on a niche HO mon that still dies to gliscor i have no idea why you mentioned it here, all of the others are also incredibly niche and basically all (except for taunt) only found on 1-2 mons each (also half of them die to sd gliscor; hatt, pult, ribombee does literally nothing, gking without beam)
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First of all, I have run several sets of Iron Boulder including Choice Band. While it isn't a good mon, and this is niche, it does have a decent matchup into several protect stalling mons like Garg, Sub/Tect Kyurem, and Gliscor because you are forcing big chunk damage. I'm also not sure why you are talking about it dying when it has a faster speed tier than Gliscor. Even if it dies, you put pressure on Gliscor first. You can capitalize with on offensive teams that like to keep the attacking momentum. You are forcing damage and this could be an option is the point.

You also seem a little too eager to try and dismiss everything here. Why? Like Psychic Noise is a great move in general. I don't know why you think there is a major sacrificing running something like that. Psychic Noise, Hex, and Skill Swap aren't available on just "1-2 mons each." Seriously, look it up. If you count Taunt, which by your own admission also isn't scarce, that's 4 of 7 that are available on at least 5-8 OU rated mons and maybe several other usable lower tier mons.

Furthermore, mons like Hatt and Geezing should already be considered as anti-hazard tech options that a teambuilder has to work with. They don't fit on every team. But they do fit on some teams and aren't bad mons. Especially Hatt. Yes, I said Hatt doesn't beat SD Gliscor. SD Gliscor has somewhat different counterplay options than the other more passive sets. But if you already have something like Hatt on your team, that counters the passive Gliscor sets as an added bonus, you can put something else in there for the SD sets. This is how you teambuild, you know?

One more thing that seems to have not been picked up is the order in which I put these tactics. Stuff like Psychic Noise and Hex, which are less niche, are towards the top. Iron Boulder's move was second to last because it isn't a real mon. It does still have some useful traits for specific OU matchups. So I mentioned it. Pecha Berry was intentionally dead last. You know why. While I didn't put everything in the perfect most useful to least useful order, I was hoping folks would pick up the general idea without me having to say it.

Finally, I want to make perfectly clear that the entire point of that post was to provide other counterplay options than just 4X Ice move goes brrr... Everybody already knows to hit Gliscor with a super effective Ice or maybe a strong Water move. What they might not have considered is tech like Psychic Noise or Hex. Open your mind to possibilities.
burstslinky said:
all of your pp stall ideas also get blown up by sd gliscor variants with tera except for exactly idbp corv (probably the best in the meta rn), and especially so if it has knock or facade or both (knock facade sd tera normal is probably my favorite set)

im sorry but you are not pp stalling gliscor with deo s or weavile
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You should be sorry because you didn't seem to read the part where I said Corv and another Pressure mon. Let me walk you through this real quick. What happens when you threaten Gliscor with an Ice move? It usually Protects, right? Mons like Weavile and D-speed aren't traditionally stalling out Gliscor. BUT they are faster threats and can chip away at that Protect PP a bit. By itself it isn't usually enough. But in tangent with Corv, it can work. Obviously, Corv is the main mon for this.

That said, I do want to correct you that D-speed does actually have the ability to PP stall with its ability and speed tier. While almost nobody runs it, this is something one can maybe do. No, I'm not telling you to run PP stall D-speed. That wasn't my point anyways. This is just to set the facts straight.
 
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Morkal said:
:clefable:
We really need more fairy types.
​
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The tapus would go so hard rn. :tapu koko: might get banned but :tapu fini: and :tapu lele: would be great additions to balance and defensive teams

Right now the fairies in the meta seem more focused towards offensive play, even defensive mons like :primarina: because it likes to run assault vest and needs constant attention to keep it away from hazards. :clefable: is good, but its not the monolith it was in pre dlc gen8. :Hatterene: really needs its team built around it, but the AV and covert cloak cm set are some nasty work.

I will add one more interesting set I found messing with :clefable: : calm mind magic guard. Calm mind is typically seen on boots unaware sets, but there are advantages to running it over unaware such as item flexibility and the ability to set up on more threats like gliscor. If you can find another rocker on your team then moonlight/calm mind/moonblast/knock off can really punish passive plays. :gliscor:, :alomomola:, :garganacl:, :skarmory:, certain :great tusk: sets and :moltres: are all great opportunities, and can often force big progress, forced switches into knock off, or instantly winning depending on the gamestate. This set can sometimes take on :gholdengo: and :darkrai: with tera steel if you have a cm or two already. I know the meta is not super desperate for anti-passive play, but it can work as an option on teams that may not have a dedicated breaker or against MUs where your breaker(s) can not switch in easily. (also ignoring passive damage is really cool)
 
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