Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

arnimacarni said:
If Kyurem gets the boot I'm singlehandedly bringing Gliscor to #1 in usage my boi is going to be GSC Lax in this b***h
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Ngl that would be so hype lmao. But jokes aside I think gliscor will still be manageable after kyurem is banned if that happens. I mean there are still things that can beat gliscor. There are a lot of pokemon that would have to be banned before I would consider gliscor broken
 
UltraSword said:
Ngl that would be so hype lmao. But jokes aside I think gliscor will still be manageable after kyurem is banned if that happens. I mean there are still things that can beat gliscor. There are a lot of pokemon that would have to be banned before I would consider gliscor broken
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I'm way more worried about waterpon who is kinda been questionable here to say the least, no kyurem might make it go crazy

But who knows

Hope kyurem gets out
 
arnimacarni said:
If Kyurem gets the boot I'm singlehandedly bringing Gliscor to #1 in usage my boi is going to be GSC Lax in this b***h
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Speaking of Lax, been running that mon on an extremely shitty team that I made and it can kinda cook???? crying was definitely onto something with that mon beyond just MU fishing.

Tera Fairy Thick Fat Lax is one of the best Kyurem counters out there and has utility against a few other shitters like Iron Moth , some Darkrai, etc. Body Slam is a great move because of its Para fishing potential against many defensive shitters like Quag, Gking, etc. Heat Crash is also strong AF, doing like 80% to max def Corv, Skarm, Ghold at +1 if you run max attack. I've been liking running it with Hex Ghold since it likes the ground-types being para'd so it can cook with Hex.

It's got a lot of flaws like being hazard weak and rest reliant, but it's been able to do more than I expected. It does bring a smile to my face whenever I see old OU / Ubers titans like Lax, Reun, Keldeo, and Thundurus-T still find some fringe usefulness. Shows that some of these mons are really timeless. If only I could say the same for Eggy :psycry:
 
ant4456 said:
More than the suspect test's results, regardless of the suspect's results, this community needs to focus on de-agitating itself and actually becoming less aggressive and divisive.

If you think a qualified suspect thread = fixing; you're sorely mistaken, that thread will be about as aggressive, because the two sides are both going to be in it. If you removed all of the unqualified messages from this suspect thread it doesn't become very pretty, I'll tell you that. And a big part of this is that people have gotten very good at agitation and become way more aggressive in their view of the game.

Not every suspect test is the end of the world. Not every suspect test puts the whole tier's future into balance. I want people to stop using this populist language that acts like every single suspect is life or death for entire ideologies in tiering the meta. I'm not even that active and interacting with the OU community is exhausting. There are times where you can make a stand, but when the stand is every fucking 4 weeks it just creates a long-term divisive split that has perpetuated throughout SV OU.

I'm not an old player in this community by almost any standard, having gotten into Smogon around USUM, and yet I've already seen a massive deterioration of this community what seems to be extremely quickly. Whatever you thought of the SWSH meta, the threads and community was relatively chill. Every suspect test nowadays seems to have problematic characters (new and old) and a SWSH suspect thread may have had like one problematic person. Who would usually be gone quickly and never return.

Going back and reading old USUM, SM, ORAS, etc. suspect threads from after the Bad Days were all way more chill. Way more normal.

We can reasonably guess (guess, I'm not saying this will happen) that Generation 10 will be late 2026 with Legends ZA having no PVP (like Legends Arceus), and that means we are still probably more than 2 years away from the next gen (2y3m). Even if we assumed that a new generation would help curb the problem (I don't know that to be certain), we're a long way out so we gotta buckle the fuck up.

There will be more suspects in the future, and, considering the volatility of the tier- unless the SV council just leaves it as is like USUM (despite PR threads calling for more action), we will probably get suspects leading us out of the generation. It is not sustainable for every suspect to become a drama center when we are in a generation that has called for a suspect test at a very high rate. In fact, even if we had a low number of suspects, it's generally just a bad thing, turns out.

And to make it clear again: Gatekeeping by skill isn't the answer, because that wasn't needed 3-4 years ago. And it doesn't solve the problem today, more importantly, because a lot of the people who are qualified are still falling into really toxic patterns and creating worse discourse. What's changed isn't the people who are allowed in the threads, it's the mentality people have going into the threads. Taking better players who all are really agitated and have really polarizing opinions on what the game should be and having them in a thread alone doesn't make for less toxicity, it just clears out the random r/stunfisk joinees which otherwise are in the middle of the already-qualified players engaging in pretty bad conversation.

Now, I'm not actually against the idea of the split suspect test thread, or even just gatekeeping one suspect test thread. I think it's decent logic, especially because more people are joining the community now than ever. But I don't think it solves the problem. Not the real problem. It should be done for the sake of quality in its own sake, but I don't expect this to actually make things less intense.

If any mod actually reads this and cares, I don't have any specific suggestions, because actually dealing with a community like this isn't something I'm experienced with, frankly. But I want this to become a focus because I feel like the community is deteriorating *more* over time, not less, and I think this needs to change. Considering that no matter the result of Kyurem, we are probably going to chill out on suspects for the next while, I feel that it'd be a better time than most to reconsider how we as a community talk about the game.

Less intensity.
Less dramatization.
Less absolutism.
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Saying less dramatization while typing a 37 paragraph essay is what I love about this thread. Keep it up weirdos ❤️
 
ant4456 said:
More than the suspect test's results, regardless of the suspect's results, this community needs to focus on de-agitating itself and actually becoming less aggressive and divisive.

If you think a qualified suspect thread = fixing; you're sorely mistaken, that thread will be about as aggressive, because the two sides are both going to be in it. If you removed all of the unqualified messages from this suspect thread it doesn't become very pretty, I'll tell you that. And a big part of this is that people have gotten very good at agitation and become way more aggressive in their view of the game.

Not every suspect test is the end of the world. Not every suspect test puts the whole tier's future into balance. I want people to stop using this populist language that acts like every single suspect is life or death for entire ideologies in tiering the meta. I'm not even that active and interacting with the OU community is exhausting. There are times where you can make a stand, but when the stand is every fucking 4 weeks it just creates a long-term divisive split that has perpetuated throughout SV OU.

I'm not an old player in this community by almost any standard, having gotten into Smogon around USUM, and yet I've already seen a massive deterioration of this community what seems to be extremely quickly. Whatever you thought of the SWSH meta, the threads and community was relatively chill. Every suspect test nowadays seems to have problematic characters (new and old) and a SWSH suspect thread may have had like one problematic person. Who would usually be gone quickly and never return.

Going back and reading old USUM, SM, ORAS, etc. suspect threads from after the Bad Days were all way more chill. Way more normal.

We can reasonably guess (guess, I'm not saying this will happen) that Generation 10 will be late 2026 with Legends ZA having no PVP (like Legends Arceus), and that means we are still probably more than 2 years away from the next gen (2y3m). Even if we assumed that a new generation would help curb the problem (I don't know that to be certain), we're a long way out so we gotta buckle the fuck up.

There will be more suspects in the future, and, considering the volatility of the tier- unless the SV council just leaves it as is like USUM (despite PR threads calling for more action), we will probably get suspects leading us out of the generation. It is not sustainable for every suspect to become a drama center when we are in a generation that has called for a suspect test at a very high rate. In fact, even if we had a low number of suspects, it's generally just a bad thing, turns out.

And to make it clear again: Gatekeeping by skill isn't the answer, because that wasn't needed 3-4 years ago. And it doesn't solve the problem today, more importantly, because a lot of the people who are qualified are still falling into really toxic patterns and creating worse discourse. What's changed isn't the people who are allowed in the threads, it's the mentality people have going into the threads. Taking better players who all are really agitated and have really polarizing opinions on what the game should be and having them in a thread alone doesn't make for less toxicity, it just clears out the random r/stunfisk joinees which otherwise are in the middle of the already-qualified players engaging in pretty bad conversation.

Now, I'm not actually against the idea of the split suspect test thread, or even just gatekeeping one suspect test thread. I think it's decent logic, especially because more people are joining the community now than ever. But I don't think it solves the problem. Not the real problem. It should be done for the sake of quality in its own sake, but I don't expect this to actually make things less intense.

If any mod actually reads this and cares, I don't have any specific suggestions, because actually dealing with a community like this isn't something I'm experienced with, frankly. But I want this to become a focus because I feel like the community is deteriorating *more* over time, not less, and I think this needs to change. Considering that no matter the result of Kyurem, we are probably going to chill out on suspects for the next while, I feel that it'd be a better time than most to reconsider how we as a community talk about the game.

Less intensity.
Less dramatization.
Less absolutism.
Click to expand...
It's crazy that this post is considered laugh worthy to some people. "Don't be a douche" can't possibly be that hard to follow on a damn Pokemon website. Is it all a persona that's put on for this website in particular? Stress relief? On Pokemon of all things? All I can think in the suspect thread are how some of these people act IRL.

Anywho, I've been taking a break, I can't afford to do crazy, stupid sets when I'm playing "guess the Kyu". If it didn't have Freeze Dry I would have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. If I had the power I'd ban that move entirely, outright erase it from the game. I'm certain it isn't "broken", but no, fuck that move. All the benefits of offensive Ice with none of the very few drawbacks.

Screw it, I have the power. Salt Cure for everyone! Every type gets a move that fucks the type chart.
 
Oh I got a fun little game. Whoever dms me (though the forums not discord) a pokemon first I will talk about it on here. It has to be ranked ru or above and not ubers. Also no kyurem for obvious reasons.
 
Well I got a dm from someone who will remain anonymous as he didn't tell me whether he wanted to be credited or not (if he says he wants credit I will edit this). Anyway the pokemon I shall talk about is maushold.

Personally I am not that experienced in the art of the maus but I have played against it plenty of times so I shall explain my opinions based on that. I think maushold is an ok pokemon on offense but it isn't super viable thanks to some very...VERY exploitable weaknesses.

Maushold has a decent stat spread of a mediocre 75 attack 74 hp 70 defense 75 special defense and a solid 111 speed. It's main strengths are its hidden ability technician and its moves tidy up and population bomb.

I feel like most people who play competitive pokemon know what technician is so I won't bore you with an explanation. Tidy up is a move that not only increases your attack and speed by one stage but also clears hazards making maushold a strong hazard removal pokemon. Finally population bomb is a 20 bp (30 bp with technician) move that hits the opposing pokemon 10 TIMES! That is a 300 bp move and that isn't even including stab or a tidy up boost.

This may sound amazing but there is a reason it is ranked ru. First off while its speed would be really good in say...Gen 8 the insane amounts of speed power creep make maushold look like macargo while deoxys speed looks like...deoxys speed. That combined with its meager defenses makes maushold easy to kill by faster by pokemon before it can set up. Even if it does set up it can still be killed easily by powerful priority users like e killer dragonite lokix kingambit etc.

Second off population bomb while powerful has one fatal flaw. It is a contact move which means it is susceptible to abilities like flame body static and rough skin as well as items like rocky helmet...and sticky barb I guess?

Finally it is a normal type using a normal type move which means it is decimated by fighting types (aka just zamazenta) resisted by steel types and has no effect on ghost types.

This may sound like I am making maushold out to be completely unusable but it does have other useful tools. It can go tera dark tera blast to counter ghost types (though I wouldn't advise this as you are better off saving that position for something better and it won't do that much damage). It also has encore which means it could trap an unsuspecting set up sweeper looking at maushold as an easy kill.

All in all maushold is a strong offensive mon with a lot of unique tools. However it has a myriad of easy to exploit weaknesses that prevent it from being ou (or even uu) proper. Tell me your thoughts on maushold below as that ends the first edition of...whatever this series is going to be called. I will be taking more requests tomorrow so byeeee
 
Maushold should never use Tera Dark Tera Blast as it has Bite, which is stronger when factoring in Technician.

Maushold has a niche on certain offense builds that want to clear hazards while also being a sweeping threat, but there are a lot of obstacles to it, such as Rocky Helmet, Steel-type Pokemon, bulky Ghosts such as Gholdengo and Sinistcha, and powerful priority, which is why it's low on the viability rankings.
 
Avira said:
Maushold should never use Tera Dark Tera Blast as it has Bite, which is stronger when factoring in Technician.

Maushold has a niche on certain offense builds that want to clear hazards while also being a sweeping threat, but there are a lot of obstacles to it, such as Rocky Helmet, Steel-type Pokemon, bulky Ghosts such as Gholdengo and Sinistcha, and powerful priority, which is why it's low on the viability rankings.
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Admittedly I forgot that bite counted as a move affected by technician but either way I agree with all of this
 
Magcargo said:
Tera Fairy Thick Fat Lax is one of the best Kyurem counters out there and has utility against a few other shitters like Iron Moth , some Darkrai, etc. Body Slam is a great move because of its Para fishing potential against many defensive shitters like Quag, Gking, etc. Heat Crash is also strong AF, doing like 80% to max def Corv, Skarm, Ghold at +1 if you run max attack. I've been liking running it with Hex Ghold since it likes the ground-types being para'd so it can cook with Hex.
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Don't just say arousing tech like this and don't share the team.
arnimacarni said:
If Kyurem gets the boot I'm singlehandedly bringing Gliscor to #1 in usage my boi is going to be GSC Lax in this b***h
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0a95aa86568f9ca8274f347d7a9ad24d.png
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
please do not refer to snorlax as arousing
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In my defense my exact wording was:
Rekka's Backend said:
Don't just say arousing tech like this
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However, since you have a beautiful buff handsome bug man as your faceclaim I'll yield to the fact our tastes are sometimes too on the nose. :blobuwu:
For absolute clarification I am not straight so my assertion of BuffBugLove is well within my claim over my accidental Snorlust (UBERS)
 
One thing I'm curious about with maushold is trying non-wide lens builds. You can run protective pads and still have an insane average damage, 300 BP is a lot after all, especially if you tera normal. It just turns maushold into a kind of miserable RNG machine.

I tried gravity, choice band, tera normal maushold but it felt like a meme. The idea was to skip needing a setup turn but maushold doesn't need more damage, it needs fewer hoops to jump through, hence the first paragraph thoughts.
 
TurquoiseLink said:
One thing I'm curious about with maushold is trying non-wide lens builds. You can run protective pads and still have an insane average damage, 300 BP is a lot after all, especially if you tera normal. It just turns maushold into a kind of miserable RNG machine.

I tried gravity, choice band, tera normal maushold but it felt like a meme. The idea was to skip needing a setup turn but maushold doesn't need more damage, it needs fewer hoops to jump through, hence the first paragraph thoughts.
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Completely understandable as protective pads and choice band each solve 2 of maushold's biggest problems. Unfortunately though nothing is as consistent as wide lens.
 
TurquoiseLink said:
One thing I'm curious about with maushold is trying non-wide lens builds. You can run protective pads and still have an insane average damage, 300 BP is a lot after all, especially if you tera normal. It just turns maushold into a kind of miserable RNG machine.

I tried gravity, choice band, tera normal maushold but it felt like a meme. The idea was to skip needing a setup turn but maushold doesn't need more damage, it needs fewer hoops to jump through, hence the first paragraph thoughts.
Click to expand...
the problem with not running wide lens is that with wide lens you have about a 90% cumulative chance to hit all 10 hits of population bomb (99% chance to land the first, 99% chance of a 99% chance for the second, and so on). without wide lens, though, all of those 99% chances drop down to 90, which drops the chance of hitting all 10 hits of pop bomb to less than 35%. gravity is the only thing that could justify maushold not running wide lens, but that's just adding a way worse gimmick to an already mid gimmick mon and those two things usually don't add up to "good and consistent"
 
UltraSword said:
Well I got a dm from someone who will remain anonymous as he didn't tell me whether he wanted to be credited or not (if he says he wants credit I will edit this). Anyway the pokemon I shall talk about is maushold.

Personally I am not that experienced in the art of the maus but I have played against it plenty of times so I shall explain my opinions based on that. I think maushold is an ok pokemon on offense but it isn't super viable thanks to some very...VERY exploitable weaknesses.

Maushold has a decent stat spread of a mediocre 75 attack 74 hp 70 defense 75 special defense and a solid 111 speed. It's main strengths are its hidden ability technician and its moves tidy up and population bomb.

I feel like most people who play competitive pokemon know what technician is so I won't bore you with an explanation. Tidy up is a move that not only increases your attack and speed by one stage but also clears hazards making maushold a strong hazard removal pokemon. Finally population bomb is a 20 bp (30 bp with technician) move that hits the opposing pokemon 10 TIMES! That is a 300 bp move and that isn't even including stab or a tidy up boost.

This may sound amazing but there is a reason it is ranked ru. First off while its speed would be really good in say...Gen 8 the insane amounts of speed power creep make maushold look like macargo while deoxys speed looks like...deoxys speed. That combined with its meager defenses makes maushold easy to kill by faster by pokemon before it can set up. Even if it does set up it can still be killed easily by powerful priority users like e killer dragonite lokix kingambit etc.

Second off population bomb while powerful has one fatal flaw. It is a contact move which means it is susceptible to abilities like flame body static and rough skin as well as items like rocky helmet...and sticky barb I guess?

Finally it is a normal type using a normal type move which means it is decimated by fighting types (aka just zamazenta) resisted by steel types and has no effect on ghost types.

This may sound like I am making maushold out to be completely unusable but it does have other useful tools. It can go tera dark tera blast to counter ghost types (though I wouldn't advise this as you are better off saving that position for something better and it won't do that much damage). It also has encore which means it could trap an unsuspecting set up sweeper looking at maushold as an easy kill.

All in all maushold is a strong offensive mon with a lot of unique tools. However it has a myriad of easy to exploit weaknesses that prevent it from being ou (or even uu) proper. Tell me your thoughts on maushold below as that ends the first edition of...whatever this series is going to be called. I will be taking more requests tomorrow so byeeee
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Maushold mentioned, my love of low-BST mons that still find a use in OU has been activated.

Maushold has a love/hate relationship with Kingambit; as much as it hates Kingambit coming in and forcing a guessing game with Sucker Punch, it also loves coming in after a Sucker Punch KO and clicking Encore for safe setup, which largely neutralizes last-mon Kingambit. This does mean Kingambit can be next-to-last mon, but depending on what else they have, there's a good chance a +1 Maushold can just kill the other stone dead.

After all, Population Bomb is insane.

A few demonstrative calcs said:
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 240-280 (47.6 - 55.5%) -- approx. 60.9% chance to 2HKO

That's right, better-than-even odds of killing 252/252+ Dondozo, from full in two turns, so Dondozo is a risky switch in, needing to predict whether you'll go for the Tidy Up or just attack directly.

+1 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 244 HP / 36 Def Gliscor: 420-490 (119.3 - 139.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gliscor can't switch in, and if you pivot into either Spikes or Swords Dance, that's free setup.
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I'm also a fan of Tera Dark over Tera Ghost, because Tera Dark Maushold can survive a +0 Five Fallen Sucker Punch from 252+ Kingambit, and if it didn't have to switch into too many hazards, it can live an Iron Head, too. Being able to live a Sucker Punch and threaten an Encore means that you can guarantee some solid damage on Kingambit, not needing much chip to KO if it terastalized out of the Steel typing.

I also like Tera Dark because it gets around ghosts pretty nicely; +1 Tera Dark Bite is a 2HKO on Gholdengo, for example. This works nicely with ID/BP Zamazenta, as the opponent has to pick their poison: do they use their ghost to stop Maushold and allow Zamazenta to get past easier with Crunch, or do they preserve their Zamazenta counter and trade something else for Maushold?

All that said, it has two major weaknesses that have to be accounted for, and one especially challenging matchup:

1) Rocky Helmet. This NEEDS to be Knocked before Maushold can pose much of a threat, and forcing in the Rocky Helmet mon to get Knocked can be difficult. Falling back on Tidy Up/Encore means that Maushold won't be entirely useless, but without Population Bomb it's pretty grim.

2) Flame Body - so currently Moltres, but also Volcarona if it comes back after a Tera Blast ban and the odd Talonflame on stall. Tera Fire is the only response, and that's otherwise mostly useless, Maushold already does pretty well into most Wisp users.

The problematic matchup is HO. Maushold is fragile and can't wear HDB, so an HO team can be rough, both to bring it in and because they can outspeed even after a Tidy Up with Booster Speed. It's not hopeless, Population Bomb is powerful enough that just attacking immediately can work out well and, push comes to shove, Tidy Up does clear hazards, but it's difficult.

PS: +1 Maushold is just barely not an OHKO on hazard setting Ting-Lu with just SR, and favorable to kill with a single layer of spikes instead, so it's a possible option to break a Zapdos-Glowking-Ting Lu core.
 
I've already put in more than 40 hours this week and also work tomorrow morning and night. I also have three kids. I've gone through like 25 accounts. Most recent went 22-0 and then many losses taking me to 25-5 and uh so it looks like I'm not going to make it. But I don't believe anyone that says they don't have time. We're just not good enough.

Oh well
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
the problem with not running wide lens is that with wide lens you have about a 90% cumulative chance to hit all 10 hits of population bomb (99% chance to land the first, 99% chance of a 99% chance for the second, and so on). without wide lens, though, all of those 99% chances drop down to 90, which drops the chance of hitting all 10 hits of pop bomb to less than 35%. gravity is the only thing that could justify maushold not running wide lens, but that's just adding a way worse gimmick to an already mid gimmick mon and those two things usually don't add up to "good and consistent"
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In other words, pads Maushold has a higher chance of hitting all 10 pop bombs than Focus Blast missing. I kinda like these odds…
 
Alternator said:
2) Flame Body - so currently Moltres, but also Volcarona if it comes back after a Tera Blast ban and the odd Talonflame on stall. Tera Fire is the only response, and that's otherwise mostly useless, Maushold already does pretty well into most Wisp users.
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in my experience as a maus user, para and burn do little to stop the guy. but that was mostly against low ladder players who let tera ghost get +6 for free. He is strong and def can contend with OU power creep. The best place to run him is as hazard removal on HO teams while still keeping up the pressure.
Edit Tidy up removes sub so kyu better watch out
 
spiderkitty410 said:
in my experience as a maus user, para and burn do little to stop the guy. but that was mostly against low ladder players who let tera ghost get +6 for free. He is strong and def can contend with OU power creep. The best place to run him is as hazard removal on HO teams while still keeping up the pressure.
Edit Tidy up removes sub so kyu better watch out
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tidy up ain't what kyu has to worry about, remember that this mon has not just a multihit move but the multihittingest out of all moves
 
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