Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

veti said:
1750 elo being required for reqs is pretty pointless now that I see it in practice, is there a possibility of 1750 elo requirements being removed next suspect and reverting to 84 in 30 / 80 in 50? Realistically nearly everyone who can get 80% gxe is capable of hitting 1750 elo and suspect laddering isn't a large enough sample size for learning the meta even with going to 1750 esp when a lot of people spam one team esp ho/stall, getting 1750 elo feels like more of a pointless chore.

If reqs must stay more difficult than a GXE requirement raise would be much better imo, smth like 85/30 -> 81/50 would actually make reqs harder.
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The old 30-50 game scale made it so that a lot of people hardly played the Pokemon or real team compsotions. A TON of people requested ELO -- read the PR thread among other things. It was more a matter of keeping a GXE component alongside it -- going back feels like a complete non-starter and saying "everyone who does X (getting old reqs) can do Y (hitting 1750)" ignores the point of reqs: qualifying people to vote on a Pokemon -- if they hardly play the tier at a high level or face the suspect in a serious context, then reqs is not doing its job.

Finally -- because apparently it needs to be re-stated in every thread: this is not the place -- this is metagame discussion, not "give my opinion on reqs" discussion, especially when you are badged and should have PR access for when the time comes.
 
UltraSword said:
Tbf I said maybe and I meant without multiscale lol. Same for gen 9
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Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.
 
Eeveeto said:
Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.
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Well I was saying like if lugia didn't get multiscale in gen 5 not that multiscale should be banned lol. I would never ban it anyway because it would make my favorite pokemon dragonite unviable
 
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Eeveeto said:
Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.
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Most likely lugia would run offensive evs because with multiscale you can afford the loss of some bulk to set up calm mind anyways.
 
Sulfurian said:
Most likely lugia would run offensive evs because with multiscale you can afford the loss of some bulk to set up calm mind anyways.
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It definetely would, though with 90 Special Attack it would still need several boosts to start doing actual damage, opponent can use those turns to Status, Knock, Encore or boost itself too. It definetely has the bulk to get the Boosts when the opponent cant immediately stop it, though.
 
I've been trying out sash lead meow recently. Overgrow Sash, Leaf Storm, Taunt, Spikes, and Knock. It's not the best lead (honestly pretty mediocre) BUT it's certainly serviceable and honestly a really fun and unique way to use meow. It also has nice matchups into ham and deos. Opinions?
 
RainebowValiant said:
I've been trying out sash lead meow recently. Overgrow Sash, Leaf Storm, Taunt, Spikes, and Knock. It's not the best lead (honestly pretty mediocre) BUT it's certainly serviceable and honestly a really fun and unique way to use meow. It also has nice matchups into ham and deos. Opinions?
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I see potential in it. However you would need to wait to use leaf storm until you get below 33% (which is basically the same as consuming focus sash for meowscarda soooo) and that means you have to make sure you don't use it before then so uh...yeah I don't know what I am trying to say here just be careful of priority users and don't use leaf storm before sash is consumed
 
UltraSword said:
I see potential in it. However you would need to wait to use leaf storm until you get below 33% (which is basically the same as consuming focus sash for meowscarda soooo) and that means you have to make sure you don't use it before then so uh...yeah I don't know what I am trying to say here just be careful of priority users and don't use leaf storm before sash is consumed
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The good thing about Taunt meow is that it's the fastest Taunt user in the game and owns both deos (the faster taunter) and hamurott (the Taunt ignorer). Leaf Storm also nukes Tusk trying to remove on it. Plus, Overgrow Leaf Storm annihilates literally everything that doesn't resist Grass (which tbf is a lot)
 
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RainebowValiant said:
I've been trying out sash lead meow recently. Overgrow Sash, Leaf Storm, Taunt, Spikes, and Knock. It's not the best lead (honestly pretty mediocre) BUT it's certainly serviceable and honestly a really fun and unique way to use meow. It also has nice matchups into ham and deos. Opinions?
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I remember this used to be a meta set and it was the top one on the smogon analysis page for meow. It was even before DLC2 gave it triple axel and it was something like spikes flower trick knock sucker.
 
Eeveeto said:
Nah, you can,t Ban Multiscale, since Nite has never been any close to broken. If Lugia its unbanned, it has to be unbanned entirely.

Obviously in Gen 5 it would be way too broken. It has Toxic, 16 PPs Roost and Knock Off still has low power. It wouldnt even check that well the controversial BW Mons, while easily dominating the rest of the meta.

In Gen 9, things are less clear. Lugia now has no Toxic, just 8 recovery PPs and a terrible typing exploited by Knock Off, which half of the meta has. Now, the last part is solved/mitigated by Tera, but it does mean that Lugia will be the Tera user in 80% of the battles, just like Garganacl is. On top of it, Boots will be needed 90% of the time (though I can see Specs and Grassy Seed Lugia being viable). CM sets will be solid and quite dangerous, but there is no combination of 2 moves that covers the whole meta and the +0 (and even +1) power is lacking. Non ironically I think that not using Stabs and instead opting by Boltbeam (+ Tera Electric, Steel or Poison) is the optimal play, since it will give Lugia a shot of breaking or forcing Tera vs Unaware users. I still think that most teams from any style can easily handle Lugia.
Now, is Lugia good vs the broken Mons of OU?
Vs Gambit: needs Earth Power, offensive EVs and Tera to win, otherwise Gambit can boost and win.
Vs Gholdengo: better, CM + Tera should win. Scarf Gholdengo with Trick screws Lugia though.
Vs Waterpon: Stab Aeroblast, this is a good contribution of Lugia to the meta.
Vs Gliscor: Fucked by Toxic but with Tera + CM wins vs all sets.
Vs Raging Bolt: Needs Tera, but wins with it.
Vs Kyurem: Same, though can be screwed by freeze (doesn't win fast enough) or DD sets.

Overall I am not sure if Lugia presence would be positive in OU, but I do think it wont be broken, even with Tera. Much better Mon to test than Palafin for sure.
Still, currently I wouldnt test it, Gliscor is current target, and regardless of the outcome there, I would go after Waterpon or Raging Bolt after the suspect, then Kyurem again, and only then think about some retest, of which Lugia, Archaludon or Zamazenta Crowned would be the most desirable Mons.
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First of all, why Bolt/Beam when Flying/Ground with Earth Power hits Clod and literally all the meta besides Zapdos and the metal birds? Tera Ground is a good defensive typing, too.

Second, you don't necesarrily need HDB since you are immune to Spikes. You just need hazard support for rocks. Flying types don't care about the rest of the hazards. If you are running a bulky sweeper, you probably don't need to enter too much.

Third, you are seriously underestimating Lugia's set diversity. It would have a lot of options.

Fourth, imagine Whirlwind Lugia and Roar Zama on the same team with hazards and tell me honestly that you want to face that.
 
Bold School said:
First of all, why Bolt/Beam when Flying/Ground with Earth Power hits Clod and literally all the meta besides Zapdos and the metal birds? Tera Ground is a good defensive typing, too.

Second, you don't necesarrily need HDB since you are immune to Spikes. You just need hazard support for rocks. Flying types don't care about the rest of the hazards. If you are running a bulky sweeper, you probably don't need to enter too much.

Third, you are seriously underestimating Lugia's set diversity. It would have a lot of options.

Fourth, imagine Whirlwind Lugia and Roar Zama on the same team with hazards and tell me honestly that you want to face that.
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One reason I can see people using BoltBeam is that Lugia has dogshit offences. I'm pretty sure uninvested Tera Ground Earth Power from Lugia against Clodsire is a 4HKO at best if even that. Although I personally wouldn't run BoltBeam as I believe the Kingambit matchup would be too important to ignore.

0 SpA Tera Ground Lugia Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 128-152 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
 
Something's been in the back of my mind for a while. How come Iron Moth is the only OU ranked pokemon who even somewhat regularly uses Tera Blast? I feel like a few other pokes could realistically get something out of running it. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost and all that, but what makes Moth better at coping with that? Is Fiery Dance just that good or is there something i'm missing?
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Something's been in the back of my mind for a while. How come Iron Moth is the only OU ranked pokemon who even somewhat regularly uses Tera Blast? I feel like a few other pokes could realistically get something out of running it. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost and all that, but what makes Moth better at coping with that? Is Fiery Dance just that good or is there something i'm missing?
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Yeah that is the funny thing. Quite a few people are clamoring for a tera blast ban and yet the only 3 pokemon to run tera blast somewhat regularly (that I can think of) is iron moth (of course) physical kyurem and enamorus (a pokemon that might not even be ou that much longer anyway)
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Something's been in the back of my mind for a while. How come Iron Moth is the only OU ranked pokemon who even somewhat regularly uses Tera Blast? I feel like a few other pokes could realistically get something out of running it. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost and all that, but what makes Moth better at coping with that? Is Fiery Dance just that good or is there something i'm missing?
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Yes, fiery dance is just that good and iron moth has cracked stats (140 special attack with 110 speed is insane). It means iron moth can snowball while attacking, which is a very desirable traits on a mon. It also is required to fully break through glowking and Heatran (though it can sometimes beat glowking if teammates chip it enough, tera blast ground/ghost mean it can take it out from much higher ranges).
Even then, iron moth has started to move away a bit from tera blast to coverage options such as psychic, d-gleam and energy ball, which as a Heatran enjoyer (surprise, surprise) is something I like.
UltraSword said:
Yeah that is the funny thing. Quite a few people are clamoring for a tera blast ban and yet the only 3 pokemon to run tera blast somewhat regularly (that I can think of) is iron moth (of course) physical kyurem and enamorus (a pokemon that might not even be ou that much longer anyway)
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This is just not true. Volcarona, Regieleki, Kingambit (tera blast fairy is not a really common set, but its still a great set), Dragapult (CB sets) and Dragonite (T-blast flying) also all use it, and two of those have been broken because of it. Some others say Espathra as well, but I think that mon would be broken even with just d-gleam as coverage. If its broken 2 mons already, and is making quite a few more incredibly annoying to face/potentially breaking them as well, then it could be a problem with the move. The other reason why people want tera blast banned is because it means we could drop regieleki (a spinner which can threaten ghold) and volcarona (check to kyurem and Kingambit) while not being overwhelming.
 
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UltraSword said:
Yeah that is the funny thing. Quite a few people are clamoring for a tera blast ban and yet the only 3 pokemon to run tera blast somewhat regularly (that I can think of) is iron moth (of course) physical kyurem and enamorus (a pokemon that might not even be ou that much longer anyway)
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Listen, I ain't big on Enamorus myself, but at risk of falling to UU? Has it been that underwhelming in these recent times?
 
Cyber-DJ said:
Listen, I ain't big on Enamorus myself, but at risk of falling to UU? Has it been that underwhelming in these recent times?
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Until like today (and to be fair I am sonewhat low ladder so take this with a grain of salt) I barely saw any teams with enamorus and then today I pretty much found their natural habitat (and by that I only found like 3 or 4 of them). I do feel like it is pretty underwhelming though I would personally not use it over any other offensive fairy type in ou and even any offensive flying type in ou and uubl.
 
BobbyHill said:
What structure is the best counter to standard offense/webs offense? Despite people here claiming diversity in the meta. Every team on the ladder feels the same.
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IN ORDER OF EFFECTIVENESS
-stall (auto-win usually)
-hard defensive checks (ting-lu, toxapex, garg, things that check moth or moon HARD)
-tera steel zamazenta with rest or roar
-double phazing (roar moltres, roar zama, whirlwind ting-lu, whirlwind skarm)

in general, solid answers to ival, moth, moon, dnite, and gambit. that's how! also, webs is OWNED by cinderace.

btw, webs and screens both farm standard HO. Happy laddering!
 
RainebowValiant said:
IN ORDER OF EFFECTIVENESS
-stall (auto-win usually)
-hard defensive checks (ting-lu, toxapex, garg, things that check moth or moon HARD)
-tera steel zamazenta with rest or roar
-double phazing (roar moltres, roar zama, whirlwind ting-lu, whirlwind skarm)

in general, solid answers to ival, moth, moon, dnite, and gambit. that's how! also, webs is OWNED by cinderace.

btw, webs and screens both farm standard HO. Happy laddering!
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Every time I try building balance, I forget Ting-Lu exists. Smh. I need to use it more to check various threats (checking Moth and Moon in one slot is like, awesome)
 
RainebowValiant said:
IN ORDER OF EFFECTIVENESS
-stall (auto-win usually)
-hard defensive checks (ting-lu, toxapex, garg, things that check moth or moon HARD)
-tera steel zamazenta with rest or roar
-double phazing (roar moltres, roar zama, whirlwind ting-lu, whirlwind skarm)

in general, solid answers to ival, moth, moon, dnite, and gambit. that's how! also, webs is OWNED by cinderace.

btw, webs and screens both farm standard HO. Happy laddering!
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Thanks. I mean more standard offense no HO. Stall still ain’t good imo. But thanks will try. I will say I don’t feel it’s possible to make a viable team that checks all of those mons fully and makes proper progress.
 
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