You have SEVERELY contradicted yourself, all of these things are usable outside of rain, but you completely fail to acknowledge how Electro Shot broke it in the second post while claiming that Electro Shot broke it in the first post.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
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Because they already addressed it in the first post? They listed its good attributes in rain that made it broken, all while maintaining that Electro Shot wasn't the sole reason for Archaludon's brokenness. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.
It was really shiest on Grassy Terrain Team early DLC2 with its ID + BP set, setting up rocks + performing decently as an anti-offense pick with its unique defensive profile. There was a popular team early on that peaked pretty high with it.
Focus Energy + Razor Claw was shiest tech on Screens teams for a time, could be very difficult to switch into, broke past some spdef boosting guys like clodsire quite decently + Had a boosted BP for blissey.
Dragon Fang Stealth rock was a decent offensive rocker on several teams due to its good speed + defensive / offensive profile. Tried a similar set in ND a while back with Z-Draco which was also shiest, but the Ferro tax hurts Arch a lot there on more general styles. Ferro not being here makes this set better in OU imo - stuff like Ghold / Gambit have less longevity and are not safe switch ins given Body Press / Dark Pulse.
I don't think Arch will be a gamechanging superstar - it'll likely just be about on par with Heatran / Hisui-Goodra on these non-rain styles, but I think it would have enough heat to have its own place in the metagame if it was unbanned. That said, I don't really like these wishy washy banning components of Pokemon since we'd need to re-evaluate every Uber in that case (i.e. Sneasler, Annihilape, etc).
Tusk wants nothing to do with arch, as draco meteor absolutely smokes it. Treads doesn't like taking bp's on the switch.
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 138-162 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 113-133 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Plus, treads doesn't exactly relish switching into draco meteor.
AV alleviates that a decent amount, and honestly, you probably will be taking physical attacks. Tusk has poor special defense, and yet that doesn't really hold it back a lot. And due to its typing and stamina, it can take many hits if it doesn't invest, though ofc, not nearly as well.
D-nite and Gliscor, sure, but samu clicks ceaseless, and then has to deal with +1 arch who could potentially bp on it. Also sacred sword is only at 14% usage last month, it is an option, but not a common one.
Still a good offensive switchin.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 177-209 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 197-232 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it can take even +2 hits decently well without investment, just imagine with just hp.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 197-232 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 177-209 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
Also the archaludon player would not just ideally let spikes go up for free. Something like tusk would try to spin them away, so yes, it can be good into wellspring. And frankly, making waterpon not run play rough as often is always a good thing, anything to limit that mon. Kyurem would do better against waterpon as +2 knock off doesn't OHKO it, while bolt feasts on it. Roaring moon can now switch into it a lot easier.
Yeah, that is a negative to it. Still threatens kingambit, tinkaton and treads with bp, so they aren't really switching in for free. Corv, ghold and others can switch in, but Arch teams will still have answers to them.
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Archaludon doesn't even need to invest in speed to outspeed kingambit, and it easily switches in on iron head in order to get that stamina boost.
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now yes, it doesn't OHKO in return, but it heavily, heavily chunks it back. And honestly, kingambit won't want to stay in really.
+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 368-436 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, archaludon is a decent answer into kingambit. It ofc wouldn't be the only mon you use for gambit, but its a nice stopgap.
Okay, this isn't really theorymonning. When arch was in the meta, it was good outside of rain teams, as it provided ways to deal with powerful threats. Waterpon was running superpower, which was just for arch. Archaludon would be a great mon in the tier. Can gholdengo threaten kingambit without having to rely on bogus blast while still being a powerful offensive threat? Can corviknight potentially set up rocks while dealing with waterpon and making it switch out.
The reasoning why archaludon was broken on rain, was as you've said, are due to a multitude of factors that combine with e-shot. Just dismissing these positives I don't get. It could still be good on teams that need a temporary waterpon, kingambit switchin, while providing good damage and utility to a team. T-wave and dragon tail are options for it too.
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This same argument applies to Garchomp who can run Draco Meteor on its hazard sets to smoke Great Tusk, and EQ also crushes Treads. (and frankly you WOULD rather use it than non rain Arch because at least Chomp punishes contact better and more actively). Guess why it still doesn't get used anymore (hint: because it's still bad).
AV off of rain is just worse Iron Crown who actually checks a ton of special threats while Arch does... not. Tusk can get away with AV on some sets because it has a huge HP to compensate, but also because it still brings role compression (spin+offensive profile+defensive checking of threats) that even being able to stomach one, maybe two hits is enough for its team because by checking these threats, it can do what you put it on a team to do. As for Sam, it's an option you have to respect because it's a viable choice for certain teams. And it doesn't matter if it DOES have to switch out, because Arch promptly does not threaten anything on Sam's team back (bonus if Ghold is in the back because it blanks non rain Arch completely).
The spikers we have are all great at relaying them either over and over, or keeping them up. It's not worth supporting a mediocre mon for anti-spikes support when you can just run a good steel type that actually pulls its weight. It also just not worth it to support it with other teammates for bad match ups in general because there are and would be simply better more consistent steels to use.
Your original example featured a 5 fallen allies Kingambit and now you're abruptly shifting to none? Also these just show a nonboosted Kingambit easily wins the war of attrition (especially with spikes up).
No. No it wasn't good outside of rain. It was fringe and mostly just experimented with for the sake of it, but non rain Arch just about never appeared to my memory. Waterpon ran Superpower for it because Arch was common on rain, which was a common playstyle. Not because of non rain Arch. Your other arguments about Corv, Gholdengo and rocks are moot because those roles are covered by far better pokemon on the rest of the team, which also do a ton of other stuff beyond that. There's no need for any of what you said.
I mean peaking early in a meta with something isn't exactly representative of it being good in a full capacity. It's easy to exploit a chaotic metagame (early DLC2) to win with something like fishy GTerrain+Arch stuff. The meta is very developed from that and such a team would not work at all in this era (especially with Rilla sucking ass nowadays). The rest... Focus Energy+Claw is the height of gimmicky and reaching to make something work, respectfully. The Dragon Fang/Stealth Rock thing... I'm sorry but I don't see it. I don't even see it on par with Heatran/GoodraH (the latter of whom I'd actually use if I really wanted a Steel/Dragon since it at least carries knock off).
YES I WANT THIS!!!
I was against the original archaludon ban but then I started thinking about it a few weeks after and realized electro shot is stupid. But non electro shot archaludon would be awesome to have back. It would not only be a strong special attacker that is also a powerful physical wall and not only could it be a good check for physical kyurem but it could even give zama competition as a body presser. Maybe it would be broken but we don't know that yet and we should give it a chance.
Zama right now:
Edit: I should mention though that I do feel like archaludon would be the nail in the coffin for blissey and gargancl's viability if not all of stall due to the nature of stamina and archaludon's insane typing. However people keep saying they want change in the tier and if this isn't broken it would certainly be a change.
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Annoying mechanics like status are part of the game/system. Keep banning certain core mechanics that's been in the game for decades and then wonder if you're playing the same game anymore. It opens the door for things like banning thunder wave next gen, or nuzzle if it becomes a TM. Or stall got too powerful and now badly poison is banned. Or focus energy/dragon cheer is too good with a high crit move.
I get we want to make a balanced meta in a game where evasion exists, but do we ever have a stopping point of "this sucks to fight but ultimately its core competitive pokemon."
All I'll readily say is that I was using Arch on Grassy Terrain teams to great success when it was back in the game. It kinda sat there as a great answer to Woger and some other threats, with Tera allowing you to have a pretty solid wall to sit there and chunk away at things.
I feel like it'd be a perfectly wonderful addition to the meta; Electroshot just made it highly volatile to deal with, and I understand that. But I found its ability to deal with the slew of physical threats to be a simply less annoying version of Zama to me.
I feel like it'd be a perfectly wonderful addition to the meta; Electroshot just made it highly volatile to deal with, and I understand that. But I found its ability to deal with the slew of physical threats to be a simply less annoying version of Zama to me.
Because garchomp is outclassed by many other ground types in the tier which can do its just better? Also comparing a mon which has base 80 special attack to a mon with base 125 special attack is extremely funny. Archaludon hits so much harder on the special side.
0 SpA Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 193-228 (52 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 280-331 (75.4 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That is significantly more damage then chomp can even dream of. And frankly, arch is probably going to be running some special attack investment, so yeah. You are comparing apples to oranges, and frankly, isn't a good arguement at all.
Does crown have a reliable way to hit kingambit? Also AV arch isn't meant to be taking big hits, its shores up its special defense stat, which is its main negative, to allow it in a pinch to take some special hits due to its great typing. Its literally the same thing as you said with tusk, take one or two special hits, but with arch, you fire back with a powerful draco metoer, flash cannon or body press.
Also again for ghold, you probably will have a teammate in order to threaten ghold out. Something like your own samu if you want to abuse your own spikes to push its checks into range of its hits. Corviknight is screwed over by gholdengo (yes, u-turn, but still) and yet its still a good mon. Just because a mon is walled by something doesn't instantantly make it unviable. Also Arch could absolutely run something like t-bolt or dark pulse if it really wanted. T-bolt hits corv really hard, while dark pulse hits gholdengo and iron crown for good damage. Yes, these both are niche options, but they are there if you really want them.
Okay, again, what other steel can do what arch does? Those are valuable traits to have. And saying that archaludon wouldn't pull its weight is wild, this is still a 600 bst mon with 130 defense and 125 attack. You can also use an item called HDB if you really are scared of spikes, which yes, does compete with AV and leftovers, but does allow it to switch in to multiple moves even if hazards are up (could be paired with Mola as arch quad resists grass moves and doesn't take much from zapdos. Though ofc raging bolt is extremely threatening).
Did you not read what I said? Its an offensive switchin. It can take a hit from kingambit, threaten it out, while dealing offensive pressure. Its not meant to be a long term answer. I changed it back to none because you didn't like my previous calc due to it not containing +2 calcs. Kingambit is going to have to kowtow kleave immediately in order to not just crumple to arch (again, run HDB if you are so scared of spikes). And since kingambit is probably there main steel type, that's going to be an issue for something switching in.
?????? What. It was fringe because you would mainly use rain arch cause that mon was so busted, and thus that overshadowed any other set. Waterpon ran superpower because it was otherwise not able to OHKO arch at +2 and arch would threaten it out. If arch was back in the meta, it could checkAlso my other points are not moot, so stop saying that. It brings valuable role compression to the table that nothing else can do. Can corviknight check waterpon while being an offensive threat? Can gholdengo check kingambit while still being an offensive threat? Can you address my points of what mons bring the same things arch does to the table without handwaving them away that "better mons do other stuff". Actually list some examples please. The only thing that can check both waterpon and kingambit (read, check) off the top of my head is maybe corviknight and zamazenta. And arch is very different from them.
I'm not trying to say arch would be a top tier mon, but it would absolutely be decent. You asked what it could do over other steels, and this is it. Checking waterpon and kingambit while being able to offensively threaten them and set up rocks potentially. It would also still have a good role on rain teams with thunder as it does well into waterpon and rillaboom, two very annoying mons for rain, and with AV helps against Kyurem.
Just sat here imagining the beautiful world where I could just bring out a bigger steel dragon to make the ice dragon slink away in fear. I might be bold enough to say we have been robbed.
I genuinely do not understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you trying to suggest unrestricted sleep..?
Weighing in briefly on the Archaludon discussion to say it would still be good outside of rain. Grassy Terrain Arch was literally already a thing back when it was in the tier and Electroshot wasn't the reason why. An Arch with the EQ weakness mitigated and GT recovery is pretty bulky. Raging Bolt already has a pretty good Grassy Seed strat with Body Press. But Arch doesn't need to run GS because of Stamina. So it could run a different item for power or defense.
As for the debate on its threat level, some things have been overlooked in this discussion. Stamina and BP with 125 special attack let's it be a potential bulky mixed attacking threat, which could be good into some defensive cores. Mixed attacking in general is one strategy for wallbreaking. This is part of why Deo-S is able to do that despite not having great stats for it. Archaludon has more raw power and still pretty decent coverage.
Arch also has Meteor Beam, which can be used with Power Herb if people really want to. So it wouldn't get special attack boost after boost, but you could get 1 up pretty freely still even without Electroshot. That combined with the Stamina boosts could still make it a bit difficult.
Breaking Swipe is a really interesting option for it since you can lower their attack, get a stamina boost, and hit any Fairy types with super effective Steel STAB.
I don't mean to drone on, but I simply don't agree with dismissing a mon with those tools that was actually already good before.
As for the debate on its threat level, some things have been overlooked in this discussion. Stamina and BP with 125 special attack let's it be a potential bulky mixed attacking threat, which could be good into some defensive cores. Mixed attacking in general is one strategy for wallbreaking. This is part of why Deo-S is able to do that despite not having great stats for it. Archaludon has more raw power and still pretty decent coverage.
Arch also has Meteor Beam, which can be used with Power Herb if people really want to. So it wouldn't get special attack boost after boost, but you could get 1 up pretty freely still even without Electroshot. That combined with the Stamina boosts could still make it a bit difficult.
Breaking Swipe is a really interesting option for it since you can lower their attack, get a stamina boost, and hit any Fairy types with super effective Steel STAB.
I don't mean to drone on, but I simply don't agree with dismissing a mon with those tools that was actually already good before.
I believe Archaludon would have a decent and far from broken niche outside of rain, but I maintain that Electro Shot is not an inherently broken move even if it is incredibly potent under rain. If Electro Shot was given to just any fully-evolved 480+ BST mid-speed attacker (Base 110) with a poor defensive typing and poor bulk (like Greninja-level bulk) that doesn't have priority itself, it'd be very easy to revenge kill either with priority or faster mons.
Archaludon was broken due to a combo of Electro Shot, Stamina with high physical bulk and a good defensive typing, high Base Special Attack, and a serviceable special movepool along with options allowing it to beat mons that would otherwise be counters such as Body Press and Earthquake for Blissey and Clodsire. It wasn't Electro Shot alone but the whole kit together even if Electro Shot was the main contributor to it being broken.
Last Respects was broken on any fully-evolved Ghost-type (maybe non-Ghosts Tera Ghosting too) pokemon with 480+ BST and decent Base Attack and bulk with it being such a problem that it was banned even from the Ubers meta before Miraidon was since it was so constraining in the builder and on a game-to-game basis. A move that scales in power based on how many mons you've lost is straight up uncompetitive and broken, no question about it.
Archaludon was broken due to a combo of Electro Shot, Stamina with high physical bulk and a good defensive typing, high Base Special Attack, and a serviceable special movepool along with options allowing it to beat mons that would otherwise be counters such as Body Press and Earthquake for Blissey and Clodsire. It wasn't Electro Shot alone but the whole kit together even if Electro Shot was the main contributor to it being broken.
Last Respects was broken on any fully-evolved Ghost-type (maybe non-Ghosts Tera Ghosting too) pokemon with 480+ BST and decent Base Attack and bulk with it being such a problem that it was banned even from the Ubers meta before Miraidon was since it was so constraining in the builder and on a game-to-game basis. A move that scales in power based on how many mons you've lost is straight up uncompetitive and broken, no question about it.
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Signature moves/abilities exist on a wide spectrum, with many being comparable to or only slightly stronger than non-banned non-signature moves. There are also many cases where a Pokemon could be dropped from Ubers by removing only a single element from its kit (signature or non-signature), even if that element is not considered intrinsically overpowered in general. As such, the fact that a signature move breaks the only Pokemon that gets it cannot be considered a good enough reason to ban the move, there needs to be an evaluation of its intrinsic merits (which is to an extent subjective, but still necessary).
There have been several instances of calls to ban signature moves/abilities in Policy Review, even though they are comparable to non-banned moves/abilities. These include:
- Libero in Gen 8 (identical to Protean)
- Supreme Overlord (generally inferior to Huge Power, comparable to Tough Claws or Hustle)
- Blood Moon (more or less objectively inferior to Boomburst)
- Jet Punch (comparable to Technician + 40 BP priority or Extreme Speed)
The moves/abilities which were banned in relatively recent history (for reasons other than excessive RNG) fall into one of two categories:
- The move/ability is problematic on a large variety of Pokemon and/or the users are interchangeable, making a ban on all broken users impractical. Examples of this would be Baton Pass, the discussed Tera Blast ban, and Light Clay bans in various lower tiers.
- The move/ability is so overwhelmingly powerful that it breaks Pokemon by itself, and not so much through a combination of properties. If the move is bringing Pokemon that would ordinarily be ZU-level to Ubers-level, that would be evidence in favor of this argument. Examples of this would be Last Respects, Shed Tail, Arena Trap/Shadow Tag, and weather ability bans in various lower tiers.
I would be all for non ES Arch returning. I used it a lot when the DLC dropped, and it was a really solid defensive option for an offence oriented team.
I'm not expecting it to come back as I know that banning Electroshot probably isn't on the table, so I won't go on about it. But, I thought it was a pretty healthy addition to the tier outside of rain.
I'm not expecting it to come back as I know that banning Electroshot probably isn't on the table, so I won't go on about it. But, I thought it was a pretty healthy addition to the tier outside of rain.
How does archaludon break stall again? What does it do in the face of IronPress Corv, Amnesia Clodsire, and Toxapex?,
Before you say "omg arch nukes pex" pex takes a Draco and then switches to something that owns arch at -2.
Arch doesn't break stall.
Well for one thing I did say that it would at least destroy blissey and gargancl's viability. But for another thing you could run a mixed av tyranitar with body press flash cannon (for clefable) thunder (surely archaludon can afford to miss one and if not then at least thunderbolt) and a 4th move for other coverage or draco meteor if you really want stab. Would this sort of set be good outside of breaking stall? Who knows.
Blissey is only viable on stall, and stall will find answers to the bridge. You can never say [blank] checks dozo/blissey/pex because in reality you're not checking them. You're trying to check stall.
...what? This...makes no sense lol. Yeah sure stall will come up with something to beat archaludon (I feel like clodsire is going to rise to ou if this bruh comes back). I agree with that. But how is thunder/thunderbolt not checking dondozo or toxapex and the same for body press not checking blissey? Body press literally gets more powerful per turn because stamina so blissey won't be able to outheal it in a 1v1. And not only does thunder/thunderbolt beat toxapex and dondozo but neither of them (especially toxapex) can really do much back especially since pex no longer has scald and dondozo...can't really do that much damage due to steel/dragon and stamina.
Because Blissey is only seen seriously on stall (for the most part dozo/pex as well), checking blissey is a matter of beating stall rather than actually beating Blissey.
Also yeah arch does beat dozo but it DOES ignore stamina due to Unaware btw!
I mean that is true I forgot about unaware lol. But I mean even if archaludon doesn't destroy stall the fact that it destroys certain parts of stall while also being able to beat many other pokemon outside of stall makes it a huge threat to stall and the tier as a whole.
I should say who I think archaludon beats outside of stall though because I at least think it beats a lot with just an av mixed set. The most immediate threats that come to mind are kyurem (this could be the ultimate reason to not ban kyurem since I think that neither physical or special variants can beat the big boi) dragonite (stamina and steel/dragon is not going to be great for dragonite) ogerpon w (none of the attacks I mentioned hit it supereffectively but ogerpon isn't exactly bulky so it can't take repeated thunders and tho ivy cudgel is always a crit archuladon quad resists it) dragapult (thunder wave is probably the best it can do against this dude) and for that matter most dragon types in the tier probably lose to this beast.
Of course there is the question of what beats archaludon and I...don't know. I do think this thing could be too much for the tier but if it is I feel like considering how much support it got last time I feel like it is safe to say it will be banned if we need it to be. So yeah I say we unban archaludon and keep electro shot banned. Will it happen? I don't know but people have been saying they want change in this tier and archaludon would certainly bring about change.
Arch was just incredibly strong, rain eshot just made it even more obvious. Dealing with it often required a combination of mons, as there wasn't a single answer that actually checked it safely especially with av patching one of the main weaknesses. The only easily exploitable flaws were lack of recocery/spike weakness, which was difficult to actually use when it has the coverage to effectively chip or trade with almost every mon.
It could do good but it's other qualities were probably underexplored or awkward to teambuild with rather than necessarily bad.
It could do good but it's other qualities were probably underexplored or awkward to teambuild with rather than necessarily bad.
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Quick thoought I had today at work, I don’t know if this has been discussed but I think that after Gliscor (either gets banned or not) I honestly think we should ban Stored Power + unban Magearna.
I honestly never get swept by SP since I love to use Encore user + Priority users + Dark type users. I still in fact believe for a good team in SV you need an Encore user unless you’re using hard stall / HO / Weather Offense.
Back to the main point, does SP add any value or competitive strategies into the tier? No it does not, the only Pokemon in OU that uses it is Clefable on REALLY cheesy and UNCOMMON sets, aside from that is only reserved for low tiers like Latias, Manaphy or Polteageist. Banning SP wouldn’t affect not only any OU mon but also any legitimate OU strategy, while unbanning a really solid pivot/sweeper/utility mon that would add a lot of things to the tier.
Also would unban Esparthra, and she would be not that good but she could be cool in lower tiers
I honestly never get swept by SP since I love to use Encore user + Priority users + Dark type users. I still in fact believe for a good team in SV you need an Encore user unless you’re using hard stall / HO / Weather Offense.
Back to the main point, does SP add any value or competitive strategies into the tier? No it does not, the only Pokemon in OU that uses it is Clefable on REALLY cheesy and UNCOMMON sets, aside from that is only reserved for low tiers like Latias, Manaphy or Polteageist. Banning SP wouldn’t affect not only any OU mon but also any legitimate OU strategy, while unbanning a really solid pivot/sweeper/utility mon that would add a lot of things to the tier.
Also would unban Esparthra, and she would be not that good but she could be cool in lower tiers
Magearna would be broken without Stored Power, or at the very least borderline as fuck.
It has Specs sets, Shift Gear sweeper sets, utility spiker sets, AV sets, mixed sweeper sets, cm sets, it's a spiker with the power of a small nuclear bomb and the variety of a gliscor, kyurem, and dragapult in one.
Banning an entire move (that isn't broken or even close to) for ONE pokemon who'd be borderline broken even without the move is such a dumb argument.
