Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[RainebowValiant]

So many Ground type spinners to choose from!

Great Tusk
Iron Tusk
Average Tusk

True enginuity at it's finest. This is insane, folks. No, it's great

This is sadly true BUT there's also Defog Corv (niche but good as secondary removal, on stall, or on a team that doesn't care too much), Cinderace (good on offenses), and Hatterene (good on certain comps), as well as Tusk and Treads being good mons offensively and defensively outside of spin, having solid statlines, Rocks, offensive prowess with Tusk and pivoting and speed (and being a steel) with Treads, Knock, and other great benefits. Tusk alone is so good it makes the hazard problem a lot more manageable. Tusk is the healthiest top tier of all time (rivaled only by maybe gen 3 ttar or something)

 

[AerionT]

I was just checking SS rapid spin in smogon and not a single spinner was in OU. How did people get rid of hazards in Gen 8 OU? Was it mainly Defog? I assume if any spinner was good enough they would get sufficient usage to be OU.

 

[Shadow Crystal]

I was just checking SS rapid spin in smogon and not a single spinner was in OU. How did people get rid of hazards in Gen 8 OU? Was it mainly Defog? I assume if any spinner was good enough they would get sufficient usage to be OU.

Defog. There were many many great defoggers like corv lando torn tapu fiji even defog koko wasn't the worst etc.. And so on.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

Annihilape would not be anywhere close to broken without Rage Fist, but Rage Fist only broke one user, so you ban the Pokemon. You label this as “laughable” without providing any reason on the contrary beyond your supposed priority of collateral damage relative to what the status quo has.

The reason to ban rage fist is so that we can still have fun playing with annihlape. The reason to ban annihlape instead is because of Smogon policy. Is changing Smogon policy a good idea if it leads to a more fun outcome?

I know it gets discussed a lot, but it is kind of a topic that deserves a lot of discussion.

 

[Finchinator]

The reason to ban rage first is so that we can still have fun playing with annihlape. The reason to ban annihlape instead is because of Smogon policy. Is changing Smogon policy a good idea if it leads to a more fun outcome?

I know it gets discussed a lot, but it is kind of a topic that deserves a lot of discussion.

Ban Rage Fist: Annihilape line is playable as a fragment

Ban Annihilape: Primeape is usable in full

There is collateral on both sides and arguing one is greater or lesser than the other is just personal opinion. You framed this incorrectly saying one side has collateral and the other is just "policy" or less "fun"

I do not even mind shifting the policy if this is what the community wants and can justify, but these specific arguments simply hold no water and are not the correct view of the situation.

 

[Moyashi]

I know it gets discussed a lot, but it is kind of a topic that deserves a lot of discussion.

If I'm being honest, I don't agree at all. It's sort of a done-to-death-over-the-years discussion that never goes anywhere productive. There's no competitively minded reason to arbitrarily ban individual elements of a pokemon just to preserve them, especially in cases like Annihilape where it goes from broken, to extremely mediocre and not worth using without Rage Fist (and that's not saying RF is broken, as it's a combo of Ape's bulk, movepool and access to Tera that combines with RF to break it).

Also "fun" is completely subjective.

 

[Seraphyde]

I think with how Game Freak continues to churn out broken moves with each new generation, it is definitely worth to evaluate the brokenness of the move on its own? In an extreme hypothetical example where every single LC mon learns Last Respects, are you still going to ban Houndstone and Basculegion because the move breaks these 2 mons? I don't think anyone will dispute that Last Respects on its own is still broken regardless.

Likewise the argument can be applied to Electro Shot as well. If Raging Bolt and Iron Treads learn this move, do we still just ban Archaludon, or do we ban the move now since it breaks all 3 mons?

There is merit in evaluating only the move regardless of who or how many mons learn it, though the criteria to determine its brokenness probably warrants another PR thread.

Smogon generally hates complex policies but I think that the best possible system would be that, if several members of an evolutionary line learn a move, and it only breaks the final stage, you ban the final stage (Annihilape), while if only the final stage learns the move, then you ban the move (Archaludon). This way, the evolutionary line is kept as intact as possible in both circumstances.

Finch is right about the Annihilape line becoming a "fragment" if Rage Fist were banned, but he fails to acknowledge that the Archaludon line would NOT become a "fragment" if Electro Shot were to be banned.

 

[FayaWizard]

I think with how Game Freak continues to churn out broken moves with each new generation, it is definitely worth to evaluate the brokenness of the move on its own? In an extreme hypothetical example where every single LC mon learns Last Respects, are you still going to ban Houndstone and Basculegion because the move breaks these 2 mons? I don't think anyone will dispute that Last Respects on its own is still broken regardless.

Likewise the argument can be applied to Electro Shot as well. If Raging Bolt and Iron Treads learn this move, do we still just ban Archaludon, or do we ban the move now since it breaks all 3 mons?

There is merit in evaluating only the move regardless of who or how many mons learn it, though the criteria to determine its brokenness probably warrants another PR thread.

I think you're forgetting how tiering works, because that's exactly what happened. Last Respects was re-evaluated when Basculegion was confirmed to have it, and then the move was banned, instead of Houndstone and Basculegion. Same with Shed Tail, first with only Cyclizar getting banned, and then eventually Orthworm abused it too much and got the move banned, freeing both Cyclizar and Orthworm.

I don't think it's a good idea to just take moves in a vaccuum and say "well they're clearly broken if we give them to so and so, so we should ban this move". Putting aside the whole "do we nerf Pokemon just to keep them in the tier" debate, this idea falls apart when we truly consider how many moves can be called "broken", but are stuck on Pokemon that can't abuse them to the fullest. Sketch, Tail Glow, Salt Cure, Ceaseless Edge, all incredibly powerful moves that would certainly be broken with larger distribution, but they aren't broken, since they're stuck on Pokemon that can't truly abuse them to the fullest (yes I know Garganacl and Hamurott are good, but Salt Cure and Ceaseless Edge would be so much better if they were on a Pokemon like Ting Lu, or Gliscor).

So where do we draw the line? Only evaluate moves if a Pokemon is using them to be broken? In that case, how do we determine if they're "broken"? I think many people would say Blood Moon is "broken", but Tinkaton is using an arguably better version of it in Gigaton Hammer, and Tinkaton is no where near broken. How do we determine if a certain move is the lynchpin for a mon's brokenness? If Hearthpon lost Swords Dance, or Bloodmoon lost Moonlight, neither would be nearly as overpowering (perhaps still broken, but we can't truly say for certain), so would you consider those moves "broken"? After all, if you give Swords Dance to Zamazenta, or Moonlight to Ting Lu, those Pokemon could arguably become broken as well, so do we ban Swords Dance and Moonlight?

Tiering would become very, very subjective, and frankly a nightmare to handle for the Council, when I think the current system works perfectly fine. Sure, Annihilape might be usable in OU if we simply banned Rage Fist, or Archaludon without Electro Shot, but personally I don't see the fun in crippling every Pokemon, slowly stripping away what makes them unique to force a weakened version of themself into a metagame they probably won't even find much success in.

 

[RainebowValiant]

I think you're forgetting how tiering works, because that's exactly what happened. Last Respects was re-evaluated when Basculegion was confirmed to have it, and then the move was banned, instead of Houndstone and Basculegion. Same with Shed Tail, first with only Cyclizar getting banned, and then eventually Orthworm abused it too much and got the move banned, freeing both Cyclizar and Orthworm.

I don't think it's a good idea to just take moves in a vaccuum and say "well they're clearly broken if we give them to so and so, so we should ban this move". Putting aside the whole "do we nerf Pokemon just to keep them in the tier" debate, this idea falls apart when we truly consider how many moves can be called "broken", but are stuck on Pokemon that can't abuse them to the fullest. Sketch, Tail Glow, Salt Cure, Ceaseless Edge, all incredibly powerful moves that would certainly be broken with larger distribution, but they aren't broken, since they're stuck on Pokemon that can't truly abuse them to the fullest (yes I know Garganacl and Hamurott are good, but Salt Cure and Ceaseless Edge would be so much better if they were on a Pokemon like Ting Lu, or Gliscor).

So where do we draw the line? Only evaluate moves if a Pokemon is using them to be broken? In that case, how do we determine if they're "broken"? I think many people would say Blood Moon is "broken", but Tinkaton is using an arguably better version of it in Gigaton Hammer, and Tinkaton is no where near broken. How do we determine if a certain move is the lynchpin for a mon's brokenness? If Hearthpon lost Swords Dance, or Bloodmoon lost Moonlight, neither would be nearly as overpowering (perhaps still broken, but we can't truly say for certain), so would you consider those moves "broken"? After all, if you give Swords Dance to Zamazenta, or Moonlight to Ting Lu, those Pokemon could arguably become broken as well, so do we ban Swords Dance and Moonlight?

Tiering would become very, very subjective, and frankly a nightmare to handle for the Council, when I think the current system works perfectly fine. Sure, Annihilape might be usable in OU if we simply banned Rage Fist, or Archaludon without Electro Shot, but personally I don't see the fun in crippling every Pokemon, slowly stripping away what makes them unique to force a weakened version of themself into a metagame they probably won't even find much success in.

100% agree on the last point. You can't kill what makes a Pokémon unique for the sake of competitive. I will forever disagree with complex bans for that reason. Let Archaludon be an Uber for its honor, not to ruin it for the sake of a bulky Stealth Rocker.

 

[Moyashi]

Smogon generally hates complex policies but I think that the best possible system would be that, if several members of an evolutionary line learn a move, and it only breaks the final stage, you ban the final stage (Annihilape), while if only the final stage learns the move, then you ban the move (Archaludon). This way, the evolutionary line is kept as intact as possible in both circumstances.

Finch is right about the Annihilape line becoming a "fragment" if Rage Fist were banned, but he fails to acknowledge that the Archaludon line would NOT become a "fragment" if Electro Shot were to be banned.

And what competitively minded reason is there for this? The move isn't the sole thing breaking the mon most of the time. You could just as efficiently ban something like Arch from running Stamina and it would also become more palatable (the ability was also a breaking factor here on top of EShot as it made it hard to revenge kill). Again, tiering isn't done to preserve options but to improve the metagame. Especially when removing a broken or overpowered element tends to open up options.

Arch is the same thing as Ape. Removing Electro Shot guts its viability and turns it into a mediocre at best steel type that's worse than every option we have. There would be zero reason to use non EShot Arch over Tinkaton, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Corviknight, Scizor, Treads, Crown.

 

[RainebowValiant]

And what competitively minded reason is there for this? The move isn't the sole thing breaking the mon most of the time. You could just as efficiently ban something like Arch from running Stamina and it would also become more palatable (the ability was also a breaking factor here on top of EShot as it made it hard to revenge kill). Again, tiering isn't done to preserve options but to improve the metagame. Especially when removing a broken or overpowered element tends to open up options.

Arch is the same thing as Ape. Removing Electro Shot guts its viability and turns it into a mediocre at best steel type that's worse than every option we have. There would be zero reason to use non EShot Arch over Tinkaton, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Corviknight, Scizor, Treads, Crown.

Not true on the second part, it'd be very viable because of its insane defensive stats (just look at how it's a top tier monotype without rain!) but otherwise correct.

 

[Seraphyde]

And what competitively minded reason is there for this? The move isn't the sole thing breaking the mon most of the time. You could just as efficiently ban something like Arch from running Stamina and it would also become more palatable (the ability was also a breaking factor here on top of EShot as it made it hard to revenge kill). Again, tiering isn't done to preserve options but to improve the metagame. Especially when removing a broken or overpowered element tends to open up options.

Being "palatable" and being broken are two different things, there are a lot of mons that are not very palatable in this metagame but they aren't outright oppressive such as Blissey. Purifying Salt makes Garganacl much harder to revenge kill but I don't see you clamoring to ban Purifying Salt.

Arch is the same thing as Ape. Removing Electro Shot guts its viability and turns it into a mediocre at best steel type that's worse than every option we have. There would be zero reason to use non EShot Arch over Tinkaton, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Corviknight, Scizor, Treads, Crown.

 

[Alternator]

The reason to ban rage fist is so that we can still have fun playing with annihlape. The reason to ban annihlape instead is because of Smogon policy. Is changing Smogon policy a good idea if it leads to a more fun outcome?

I know it gets discussed a lot, but it is kind of a topic that deserves a lot of discussion.

While in theory I agree that banning 'inherently broken' moves, regardless of the number of users, would be a good change, there is one practical concern that I've never found an answer for:

Clearly define an 'inherently broken move,' such that there is little to no debate as to whether any given move qualifies.

 

[Moyashi]

Being "palatable" and being broken are two different things, there are a lot of mons that are not very palatable in this metagame but they aren't outright oppressive such as Blissey. Purifying Salt makes Garganacl much harder to revenge kill but I don't see you clamoring to ban Purifying Salt.

Blissey isn't just "not outright oppresive", it's bad outside of Stall, a playstyle that is niche at best and quite fishy in this tier right now. Purifying Salt doesn't "make Garganacl harder to revenge kill", it just provides a status immunity and ghost resist which bolsters its defensive profile. Curse/Iron Defense are what make it less prone to revenge kills from physical attackers, but it's also vulnerable to Encore, Substitute and strong special breakers as well as Trick users if necessary. It's excellent for sure, but it doesn't even approach the border of slightly oppressive.

Also @ non rain Arch, if you want to make a real argument I'm all ears. Seriously. Pitch what it would do outside of rain that would at all justify its use over other steels.

 

[RainebowValiant]

Blissey isn't just "not outright oppresive", it's bad outside of Stall, a playstyle that is niche at best and quite fishy in this tier right now. Purifying Salt doesn't "make Garganacl harder to revenge kill", it just provides a status immunity and ghost resist which bolsters its defensive profile. Curse/Iron Defense are what make it less prone to revenge kills from physical attackers, but it's also vulnerable to Encore, Substitute and strong special breakers as well as Trick users if necessary. It's excellent for sure, but it doesn't even approach the border of slightly oppressive.

Also @ non rain Arch, if you want to make a real argument I'm all ears. Seriously. Pitch what it would do outside of rain that would at all justify its use over other steels.

>wall with stealth rock
>dragon/steel with insane bulk and good offensive prowess
>has fuckin stamina
>walls a LOT of stuff like dnite, toxic scor, meow, weav, waterpon, rilla, hamurott, etc, as well as most physical attackers after stamina boosts it enough
>has a move to OHKO gambit while having stamina to mess it up
>walls waterpon
>WALLS WATERPON AND ISN'T WEAK TO U-TURN OR PLAY ROUGH OR KNOCK

 

[Heatranator]

Also @ non rain Arch, if you want to make a real argument I'm all ears. Seriously. Pitch what it would do outside of rain that would at all justify its use over other steels.

Its a great check to waterpon, as it resists all of ivy cudgel, power whip and play rough, which are the most common sets. Its able to use this opportunity to set up rocks or fire off a powerful draco meteor. Its also a great check to kingambit due to stamina and body press, meaning it can threaten it back for big damage (yes, tera, but that's the norm).
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Frankly, archaludon if it was let back in would be amazing. Whether that's what people want, is up to tier leaders, but it absolutely would have reasons.

 

[TurquoiseLink]

I think you're forgetting how tiering works, because that's exactly what happened. Last Respects was re-evaluated when Basculegion was confirmed to have it, and then the move was banned, instead of Houndstone and Basculegion. Same with Shed Tail, first with only Cyclizar getting banned, and then eventually Orthworm abused it too much and got the move banned, freeing both Cyclizar and Orthworm.

I don't think it's a good idea to just take moves in a vaccuum and say "well they're clearly broken if we give them to so and so, so we should ban this move". Putting aside the whole "do we nerf Pokemon just to keep them in the tier" debate, this idea falls apart when we truly consider how many moves can be called "broken", but are stuck on Pokemon that can't abuse them to the fullest. Sketch, Tail Glow, Salt Cure, Ceaseless Edge, all incredibly powerful moves that would certainly be broken with larger distribution, but they aren't broken, since they're stuck on Pokemon that can't truly abuse them to the fullest (yes I know Garganacl and Hamurott are good, but Salt Cure and Ceaseless Edge would be so much better if they were on a Pokemon like Ting Lu, or Gliscor).

So where do we draw the line? Only evaluate moves if a Pokemon is using them to be broken? In that case, how do we determine if they're "broken"? I think many people would say Blood Moon is "broken", but Tinkaton is using an arguably better version of it in Gigaton Hammer, and Tinkaton is no where near broken. How do we determine if a certain move is the lynchpin for a mon's brokenness? If Hearthpon lost Swords Dance, or Bloodmoon lost Moonlight, neither would be nearly as overpowering (perhaps still broken, but we can't truly say for certain), so would you consider those moves "broken"? After all, if you give Swords Dance to Zamazenta, or Moonlight to Ting Lu, those Pokemon could arguably become broken as well, so do we ban Swords Dance and Moonlight?

Tiering would become very, very subjective, and frankly a nightmare to handle for the Council, when I think the current system works perfectly fine. Sure, Annihilape might be usable in OU if we simply banned Rage Fist, or Archaludon without Electro Shot, but personally I don't see the fun in crippling every Pokemon, slowly stripping away what makes them unique to force a weakened version of themself into a metagame they probably won't even find much success in.

You're right that determining if a move (or ability) is broken is kind of impossible, and way too subjective.

The theoretical change to tiering is not deciding that. It is deciding that a mon as a whole is broken through the same processes as now, except the response is, instead of banning the mon, we nerf it by banning the move/ability instead.

This only works when we have signatures like rage fist or electro cannon. After all, we don't want to nerf multiple pokemon, and we definitely don't want complex bans.

I am well aware that this goes against current tiering policy, before I'm accused of not understanding it.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with Finch's Primeape reasoning. We didn't preserve last respects for the sake of baby Basculin white stripe after all. Hell, maybe Basculin would have been broken with it. I can respect the point though.

 

[Seraphyde]

While I in theory agree that banning 'inherently broken' moves, regardless of the number of users, would be a good change, there is one practical concern that I've never found an answer for:

Clearly define an 'inherently broken move,' such that there is little to no debate as to whether any given move qualifies.

A signature move which is clearly the sole factor in making a Pokemon oppressive, for example, Rage Fist and Electro Shot allowing their users to snowball obscenely fast. Suspect testing and re-testing exists for this reason. For example, if we banned Electro Shot and somehow during re-testing found Archaludon to be broken anyways, we just ban it again. Same thing with Tera Blast and Volcarona. I can see concerns developing over this elongating the suspect process but such occurrences are very few and far in between, so I don't think that it would be a major issue.

 

[Moyashi]

>wall with stealth rock
>dragon/steel with insane bulk and good offensive prowess
>has fuckin stamina
>walls a LOT of stuff like dnite, toxic scor, meow, weav, waterpon, rilla, hamurott, etc, as well as most physical attackers after stamina boosts it enough
>has a move to OHKO gambit while having stamina to mess it up
>walls waterpon
>WALLS WATERPON AND ISN'T WEAK TO U-TURN OR PLAY ROUGH OR KNOCK

-Bad Stealth Rock setter because it can't keep them up at all vs common removal options (Tusk/Treads dominate it, Corv sits on it).
-Dragon/Steel with strong physical bulk but mediocre special bulk, and its offensive prowess is pretty unspectacular without investment and no way to boost it. And if you don't invest in bulk, then it gets overwhelmed too easily.
-And? The reason Stamina was such a good deal for rain Arch was because it made it harder to force out after it was boosted, making it challenging to limit. Without a boosting option for its spatk, it's much less threatening.
-Does not wall DNite who literally EQs it (which kills at +1 with minor prior chip), Gliscor literally chips it down longterm with EQs/knocks its lefties off (and no, Mola is not a solution to this). Hamurott gets free spikes, Sacred Sword variants slice right through Arch.
-And then it clicks knock, removes your lefties and gets shredded by spikes.

Its a great check to waterpon, as it resists all of ivy cudgel, power whip and play rough, which are the most common sets. Its able to use this opportunity to set up rocks or fire off a powerful draco meteor. Its also a great check to kingambit due to stamina and body press, meaning it can threaten it back for big damage (yes, tera, but that's the norm).
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Frankly, archaludon if it was let back in would be amazing. Whether that's what people want, is up to tier leaders, but it absolutely would have reasons.

Touched on the rocks, Wellspring and other issues above. Its stab combo is walled by all our good steels (which we have no shortage of). That Kingambit calc is super silly because assuming endgame? That Gambit will be realistically +2. And unless your also packing Tera still that late (unlikely), you lose.

It wouldn't be amazing at all. Seriously I feel like so many are theorymonning based off of on paper things without considering its flaws without EShot. Want a good steel rocker? Tinkaton does it while also compressing checks for tough-to-answer nuisances like Darkrai and Kyurem, and with fast Encore can trap slower set up threats to neutralize them sometimes. Want a defensive steel? Gholdengo and Corv pack recovery, the former being a huge offensive threat while the former has great momentum gaining utility, and Iron Crown is aggressive and disruptive to most teams. Offensive? Again, Gholdengo, but also of course Kingambit for obvious reasons as well as Scizor on offense, Iron Crown in general. Non rain Arch does not compress any useful roles together well, and it's unremarkable.

A signature move which is clearly the sole factor in making a Pokemon oppressive, for example, Rage Fist and Electro Shot allowing their users to snowball obscenely fast. Suspect testing and re-testing exists for this reason. For example, if we banned Electro Shot and somehow during re-testing found Archaludon to be broken anyways, we just ban it again. Same thing with Tera Blast and Volcarona. I can see concerns developing over this elongating the suspect process but such occurrences are very few and far in between, so I don't think that it would be a major issue.

"clearly the sole factor"

Rage Fist and Electro Shot alone did not break either of their users. Annihilape possessed strong natural bulk, excellent tools in Taunt+BU and access to Terastilization to let it remove offensive counterplay and usually forcing multiple trades for it to go down. Archaludon has a good typing, strong bulk when backed by Assault Vest to compliment its playstyle on rain, an excellent ability that complicated revenge killing it further, which like Ape, often forced multiple trades to remove it from the game.

 

[Seraphyde]

Arch is the same thing as Ape. Removing Electro Shot guts its viability and turns it into a mediocre at best steel type that's worse than every option we have. There would be zero reason to use non EShot Arch over Tinkaton, Gholdengo, Kingambit, Corviknight, Scizor, Treads, Crown.

Archaludon has a good typing, strong bulk when backed by Assault Vest to compliment its playstyle on rain, an excellent ability that complicated revenge killing it further, which like Ape, often forced multiple trades to remove it from the game.

You have SEVERELY contradicted yourself, all of these things are usable outside of rain, but you completely fail to acknowledge how Electro Shot broke it in the second post while claiming that Electro Shot broke it in the first post.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

You have SEVERELY contradicted yourself, all of these things are usable outside of rain, but you completely fail to acknowledge how Electro Shot broke it in the second post while claiming that Electro Shot broke it in the first post.

Because they already addressed it in the first post? They listed its good attributes in rain that made it broken, all while maintaining that Electro Shot wasn't the sole reason for Archaludon's brokenness. This isn't the "gotcha" you think it is.

 

[Magcargo]

Also @ non rain Arch, if you want to make a real argument I'm all ears. Seriously. Pitch what it would do outside of rain that would at all justify its use over other steels.

It was really shiest on Grassy Terrain Team early DLC2 with its ID + BP set, setting up rocks + performing decently as an anti-offense pick with its unique defensive profile. There was a popular team early on that peaked pretty high with it.

Focus Energy + Razor Claw was shiest tech on Screens teams for a time, could be very difficult to switch into, broke past some spdef boosting guys like clodsire quite decently + Had a boosted BP for blissey.

Dragon Fang Stealth rock was a decent offensive rocker on several teams due to its good speed + defensive / offensive profile. Tried a similar set in ND a while back with Z-Draco which was also shiest, but the Ferro tax hurts Arch a lot there on more general styles. Ferro not being here makes this set better in OU imo - stuff like Ghold / Gambit have less longevity and are not safe switch ins given Body Press / Dark Pulse.

I don't think Arch will be a gamechanging superstar - it'll likely just be about on par with Heatran / Hisui-Goodra on these non-rain styles, but I think it would have enough heat to have its own place in the metagame if it was unbanned. That said, I don't really like these wishy washy banning components of Pokemon since we'd need to re-evaluate every Uber in that case (i.e. Sneasler, Annihilape, etc).

 

[Heatranator]

-Bad Stealth Rock setter because it can't keep them up at all vs common removal options (Tusk/Treads dominate it, Corv sits on it).

Tusk wants nothing to do with arch, as draco meteor absolutely smokes it. Treads doesn't like taking bp's on the switch.
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 138-162 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 113-133 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Plus, treads doesn't exactly relish switching into draco meteor.

-Dragon/Steel with strong physical bulk but mediocre special bulk, and its offensive prowess is pretty unspectacular without investment and no way to boost it. And if you don't invest in bulk, then it gets overwhelmed too easily.

AV alleviates that a decent amount, and honestly, you probably will be taking physical attacks. Tusk has poor special defense, and yet that doesn't really hold it back a lot. And due to its typing and stamina, it can take many hits if it doesn't invest, though ofc, not nearly as well.

-Does not wall DNite who literally EQs it (which kills at +1 with minor prior chip), Gliscor literally chips it down longterm with EQs/knocks its lefties off (and no, Mola is not a solution to this). Hamurott gets free spikes, Sacred Sword variants slice right through Arch.

D-nite and Gliscor, sure, but samu clicks ceaseless, and then has to deal with +1 arch who could potentially bp on it. Also sacred sword is only at 14% usage last month, it is an option, but not a common one.

-And then it clicks knock, removes your lefties and gets shredded by spikes.

Still a good offensive switchin.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 177-209 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 197-232 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it can take even +2 hits decently well without investment, just imagine with just hp.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 197-232 (51.3 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 177-209 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO
Also the archaludon player would not just ideally let spikes go up for free. Something like tusk would try to spin them away, so yes, it can be good into wellspring. And frankly, making waterpon not run play rough as often is always a good thing, anything to limit that mon. Kyurem would do better against waterpon as +2 knock off doesn't OHKO it, while bolt feasts on it. Roaring moon can now switch into it a lot easier.

Its stab combo is walled by all our good steels (which we have no shortage of).

Yeah, that is a negative to it. Still threatens kingambit, tinkaton and treads with bp, so they aren't really switching in for free. Corv, ghold and others can switch in, but Arch teams will still have answers to them.

That Kingambit calc is super silly because assuming endgame? That Gambit will be realistically +2. And unless your also packing Tera still that late (unlikely), you lose.

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Archaludon doesn't even need to invest in speed to outspeed kingambit, and it easily switches in on iron head in order to get that stamina boost.
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 248-292 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now yes, it doesn't OHKO in return, but it heavily, heavily chunks it back. And honestly, kingambit won't want to stay in really.
+1 0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 368-436 (107.9 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So yeah, archaludon is a decent answer into kingambit. It ofc wouldn't be the only mon you use for gambit, but its a nice stopgap.

It wouldn't be amazing at all. Seriously I feel like so many are theorymonning based off of on paper things without considering its flaws without EShot. Want a good steel rocker? Tinkaton does it while also compressing checks for tough-to-answer nuisances like Darkrai and Kyurem, and with fast Encore can trap slower set up threats to neutralize them sometimes. Want a defensive steel? Gholdengo and Corv pack recovery, the former being a huge offensive threat while the former has great momentum gaining utility, and Iron Crown is aggressive and disruptive to most teams. Offensive? Again, Gholdengo, but also of course Kingambit for obvious reasons as well as Scizor on offense, Iron Crown in general. Non rain Arch does not compress any useful roles together well, and it's unremarkable.

Okay, this isn't really theorymonning. When arch was in the meta, it was good outside of rain teams, as it provided ways to deal with powerful threats. Waterpon was running superpower, which was just for arch. Archaludon would be a great mon in the tier. Can gholdengo threaten kingambit without having to rely on bogus blast while still being a powerful offensive threat? Can corviknight potentially set up rocks while dealing with waterpon and making it switch out.
The reasoning why archaludon was broken on rain, was as you've said, are due to a multitude of factors that combine with e-shot. Just dismissing these positives I don't get. It could still be good on teams that need a temporary waterpon, kingambit switchin, while providing good damage and utility to a team. T-wave and dragon tail are options for it too.

 

[Moyashi]

Tusk wants nothing to do with arch, as draco meteor absolutely smokes it. Treads doesn't like taking bp's on the switch.
252 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 138-162 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Treads: 113-133 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Plus, treads doesn't exactly relish switching into draco meteor.

This same argument applies to Garchomp who can run Draco Meteor on its hazard sets to smoke Great Tusk, and EQ also crushes Treads. (and frankly you WOULD rather use it than non rain Arch because at least Chomp punishes contact better and more actively). Guess why it still doesn't get used anymore (hint: because it's still bad).

AV alleviates that a decent amount, and honestly, you probably will be taking physical attacks. Tusk has poor special defense, and yet that doesn't really hold it back a lot. And due to its typing and stamina, it can take many hits if it doesn't invest, though ofc, not nearly as well.

AV off of rain is just worse Iron Crown who actually checks a ton of special threats while Arch does... not. Tusk can get away with AV on some sets because it has a huge HP to compensate, but also because it still brings role compression (spin+offensive profile+defensive checking of threats) that even being able to stomach one, maybe two hits is enough for its team because by checking these threats, it can do what you put it on a team to do. As for Sam, it's an option you have to respect because it's a viable choice for certain teams. And it doesn't matter if it DOES have to switch out, because Arch promptly does not threaten anything on Sam's team back (bonus if Ghold is in the back because it blanks non rain Arch completely).

Also the archaludon player would not just ideally let spikes go up for free. Something like tusk would try to spin them away, so yes, it can be good into wellspring. And frankly, making waterpon not run play rough as often is always a good thing, anything to limit that mon. Kyurem would do better against waterpon as +2 knock off doesn't OHKO it, while bolt feasts on it. Roaring moon can now switch into it a lot easier.

The spikers we have are all great at relaying them either over and over, or keeping them up. It's not worth supporting a mediocre mon for anti-spikes support when you can just run a good steel type that actually pulls its weight. It also just not worth it to support it with other teammates for bad match ups in general because there are and would be simply better more consistent steels to use.

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 247-292 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Archaludon: 165-195 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your original example featured a 5 fallen allies Kingambit and now you're abruptly shifting to none? Also these just show a nonboosted Kingambit easily wins the war of attrition (especially with spikes up).

Okay, this isn't really theorymonning. When arch was in the meta, it was good outside of rain teams, as it provided ways to deal with powerful threats. Waterpon was running superpower, which was just for arch. Archaludon would be a great mon in the tier. Can gholdengo threaten kingambit without having to rely on bogus blast while still being a powerful offensive threat? Can corviknight potentially set up rocks while dealing with waterpon and making it switch out.
The reasoning why archaludon was broken on rain, was as you've said, are due to a multitude of factors that combine with e-shot. Just dismissing these positives I don't get. It could still be good on teams that need a temporary waterpon, kingambit switchin, while providing good damage and utility to a team. T-wave and dragon tail are options for it too.

No. No it wasn't good outside of rain. It was fringe and mostly just experimented with for the sake of it, but non rain Arch just about never appeared to my memory. Waterpon ran Superpower for it because Arch was common on rain, which was a common playstyle. Not because of non rain Arch. Your other arguments about Corv, Gholdengo and rocks are moot because those roles are covered by far better pokemon on the rest of the team, which also do a ton of other stuff beyond that. There's no need for any of what you said.

It was really shiest on Grassy Terrain Team early DLC2 with its ID + BP set, setting up rocks + performing decently as an anti-offense pick with its unique defensive profile. There was a popular team early on that peaked pretty high with it.

Focus Energy + Razor Claw was shiest tech on Screens teams for a time, could be very difficult to switch into, broke past some spdef boosting guys like clodsire quite decently + Had a boosted BP for blissey.

Dragon Fang Stealth rock was a decent offensive rocker on several teams due to its good speed + defensive / offensive profile. Tried a similar set in ND a while back with Z-Draco which was also shiest, but the Ferro tax hurts Arch a lot there on more general styles. Ferro not being here makes this set better in OU imo - stuff like Ghold / Gambit have less longevity and are not safe switch ins given Body Press / Dark Pulse.

I don't think Arch will be a gamechanging superstar - it'll likely just be about on par with Heatran / Hisui-Goodra on these non-rain styles, but I think it would have enough heat to have its own place in the metagame if it was unbanned. That said, I don't really like these wishy washy banning components of Pokemon since we'd need to re-evaluate every Uber in that case (i.e. Sneasler, Annihilape, etc).

I mean peaking early in a meta with something isn't exactly representative of it being good in a full capacity. It's easy to exploit a chaotic metagame (early DLC2) to win with something like fishy GTerrain+Arch stuff. The meta is very developed from that and such a team would not work at all in this era (especially with Rilla sucking ass nowadays). The rest... Focus Energy+Claw is the height of gimmicky and reaching to make something work, respectfully. The Dragon Fang/Stealth Rock thing... I'm sorry but I don't see it. I don't even see it on par with Heatran/GoodraH (the latter of whom I'd actually use if I really wanted a Steel/Dragon since it at least carries knock off).

 

[UltraSword]

Frankly, archaludon if it was let back in would be amazing. Whether that's what people want, is up to tier leaders, but it absolutely would have reasons.

YES I WANT THIS!!!

I was against the original archaludon ban but then I started thinking about it a few weeks after and realized electro shot is stupid. But non electro shot archaludon would be awesome to have back. It would not only be a strong special attacker that is also a powerful physical wall and not only could it be a good check for physical kyurem but it could even give zama competition as a body presser. Maybe it would be broken but we don't know that yet and we should give it a chance.

Zama right now:

Edit: I should mention though that I do feel like archaludon would be the nail in the coffin for blissey and gargancl's viability if not all of stall due to the nature of stamina and archaludon's insane typing. However people keep saying they want change in the tier and if this isn't broken it would certainly be a change.