I like cheap tactics call me a Dark type
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Real gamblers fish for the Dark Pulse flinch
I accept your concession that your favorite Pokemon are hard carried by a single mechanic
Their viability is carried by a single mechanic*
Let’s unban Moody so Glalie can get used. It would be a shame for a bad mon to be unable to use cheap tactics to cheese games.
I mean we did deal with it for what, 25+ years? We banned it because darkrai made y'all mad.
Does anyone have ideas for where the meta goes after the suspect? Despite what anyone says about other playstyles technically being viable, the same offense is dominant/all over the ladder. A Kyurem ban would’ve opened up an interesting path for the meta, but obviously that didn’t go through, and it looks like Gliscor isn’t going to go either (not that it necessarily has to). Are we just going to be in a boring meta until Gen 10?
That depends. Ausma mentioned awhile back that sometime after the Gliscor test, there was gonna be another community survey, but wether this remains true or not, I have no clue
Hello, I'm back in the metagame discussion thread after my break (due to mental health reasons). You guys still talking about Gliscor?
In order for this to not become a one-liner, opinions on Okidogi in OU and UU? Being the newly minted UUBL mon must put on a lot of pressure for its use in OU so I wanna see what yall think about it!
In order for this to not become a one-liner, opinions on Okidogi in OU and UU? Being the newly minted UUBL mon must put on a lot of pressure for its use in OU so I wanna see what yall think about it!
Sleep was banned because Sleep Clause was an abomination upon good tiering policy that only lingered due to inertia.
"We don't nerf mons, we ban them" is perhaps the most fundamental rule of tiering policy - OU didn't ban Rage Fist, it banned Annihilape; it didn't ban Last Respects, it banned Houndstone - and then banned Last Respects when it gained another user, so removing the move wasn't, policy-wise, nerfing a single mon to keep it in the tier.
The unstated corollary is "We don't nerf moves, we ban them," and we don't nerf mechanics anymore, which was one reason Tera Preview had pushback. [Weather setting ability] + [speed boosting ability in weather] would never be allowed in a current gen; the evasion boosting abilities would never be permitted under a "If you can't set the weather" condition, either. (The "But what if my opponent brings the weather?" problem did occur in Gen 5 and did cause further action.)
Sleep Clause was created before Smogon standardized policy, though, and it worked well enough in keeping sleep from becoming a problem that every generation just rolled it forward, but that's the key point - it worked. Once it stopped working, once sleep became a real problem despite Sleep Clause already existing and nerfing the status, then there was only one real choice. Why retain an exception to otherwise-consistent policy when the justification for having it no longer exists?
Thus, sleep ban.
Also, Darkrai wasn't the only sleeper causing problems; Iron Valiant could run Hypnosis with its fourth move, and Sleep Powder was springing up on Hisuian Liligant. In both cases, landing the sleep move and buying a completely free turn of setup - plus removing the best answer to the sweeper - could end the game on the spot with little recourse beyond "Hope it misses."
Firstly, hope you're doing better. As for Gliscor discussion. Ehh, sort of? Discussion about it has slowed down, for whatever reasons it may be. General sentiment from what i've seen is no ban, but we'll see how it translates come the results.
It's pretty "Okie doki" in OU, but I forget for the specifics reasons. I hear it's a solid Darkrai answer, though
Also sleep ban was objectively good for the health of the tier and objectively good for the health of every tier. You want Red Card Amoonguss and Hypnosis Valiant back along with Darkrai, along with various Hypnosis/Sleep Powder cheesers? You can have it! Just get it the FUCK away from me.
I hope it stays legal LMFAOOO or else
Okidogi is a cool mon, I don't play UU much so idk why it was banned from there but not RU. But I should try it!
I've been cooking up a theorymon AV spread for it:
Okidogi (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 128 HP / 164 Atk / 192 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat / Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch
It's not Glowking, but it handles many relevant special attackers. So far, it has worked better in theory than practice, but I'll try Drain Punch over CC to address some longevity concerns. I tried to cook up something that could handle Raging Bolt, Iron Moth, Darkrai, Iron Valiant, and Kyurem all in one slot, and this was one of the better recipes.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 128 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 294-348 (84.2 - 99.7%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 120 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 135-160 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 128 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 135-160 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 292-348 (83.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ Atk Okidogi Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 342-404 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 122-144 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ Atk Okidogi Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 208-248 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 120 HP / 200 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 135-160 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 128 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 135-160 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Okidogi: 292-348 (83.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
164+ Atk Okidogi Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 342-404 (100.2 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 128 HP / 192 SpD Assault Vest Okidogi: 122-144 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
164+ Atk Okidogi Ice Punch vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 208-248 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Apparently it's vote was close, but it barely survived...until it rose up to UU not long afterwards
EVERYONE NAME ALL YOUR DARKRAI FLINCHINATOR
To not make this a shitpost, I’ve been swapping sludge bomb for psynoise on Gking these days, making the moveset psynoise toxic future sight chilly reception. It still hits Val hard and is much better against zama, moth and prim.
The main reason why you would use okidogi is it is the single hardest counter to zamazenta in the tier. Due to guard dog, it can't be phased by roar and can use drain punch+lefties in order to keep itself healthy. Bulk Up means it can boost alongside zamazenta and with knock+ice punch, it can hit most of the tier for good damage. It also gets an attack boost from lando's intimidate, which means that if you are lazily using it to check physical sweepers, you are in for a surprise (still does good damage to it though, but tera helps that.
As somebody who plays RU quite a lot, there are a few reasons. Firstly, the physical walls in RU are a lot better against Okidogi. Hippowdon and Slowbro don't appreciate poison, but they take its hits much, much better. Geezing (who is actually decent in RU) can take its CC and wisp it. Gligar is also much better in RU and hardwalls it. Tera poison is also a lot better in the tier to help against the many toxic's flying around (umbreon, amoonguss, quagsire, gligar, glowbro) and this also helped against okidogi, as it struggled to hit these as hard (yes, psychic fangs exists, but dropping knock is hard on BU sets, and choice sets ofc had to play prediction games).
As stated though, it was still close. So it getting banned from UU isn't too surprising with the different surroundings.
isn't sinistcha (and pecharunt) better? Haven't tried it but sinistcha and pech are such insanely good checks I can't imagine something better.
makes sense, but surprising that a Pokemon weak to both of the top 2 pokemon's STABs can get banned from UU. Impressive for it.
Doesn't this kind of showcase how dumb the policy is in practice? I mean, fundamentally speaking, what's the difference between nerfing one shitmon and nerfing two shitmons besides pure semantics? Using the Ape as an example is a bit of apples to oranges, Annihilape was broken for more reasons than Rage Fist (same STABs as Marshadow, Tera Abuse, etc), whereas the ONLY things that break Hound and Basc are LR. The premise of banning some forgettable shitmon on the basis of a single move it gets is laughable and only has so much support because most people don't question the mentality of "We've been doing this forever, so we should do this forever".
Well, crunch does super effective and with tera dark, thinks can get iffy. Tera dark crunch from id+bp zama (AOA does way too much to it), its a 2hit ko with rocks against sinsistcha, while pecharunt still takes 35% min from id+bp tera dark crunch and takes 43% min from AOA sets. Okidogi doesn't have this issue as it isn't super effectively hit by anything zama can use as CC from AOA sets are 25% max to it.
Yes, as overall mons these are better, but as zamazenta counters? Okidogi is much better.
Annihilape would not be anywhere close to broken without Rage Fist, but Rage Fist only broke one user, so you ban the Pokemon. You label this as “laughable” without providing any reason on the contrary beyond your supposed priority of collateral damage relative to what the status quo has.
makes sense!
lmao annihilape would be a shitmon without rage fist. dude please stop talking about pokemon here you keep spouting the dumbest and least factual takes of all time. "tusk is unhealthy" and all that blah blah blah. please think before you make a new hot take.
Annihilape with no Rage Fist has to run what, Shadow Claw? lmao
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I think that Dual Wingbeat Gliscor should be a thing. Tera Fly OHKOs Woger (broken banworthy mon) after rocks.