Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

verifiably untrue if you look at SPL and recent teams that have peaked ladder. its fair that you dont enjoy the meta though.
ofc there are creative teams that do peak the ladder, be these are few and far between. Of course, if you scroll through the RMTs you will see lots of creative teams, but of course you will, that's where people post them after all. Even then, despite these teams having 1 or 2 novel choices they still mostly just revolve around the exact same cores, I can understand where you are coming from tho, theres not NO innovation.
 
Enjoyment: 8
Competitivness: 8

Kingambit: 2
Can still reverse sweep in the right circumstances but I think the meta has adapted decently with flame body/encore/physical walls in general, fairyblast can do silly things vs zama and tusk but you at least have to use tera on him unless you go mono dark or without kowtow for the entire game; Tera ghost is prolly the hardest one to beat if oppo plays correctly at least imo.

Ogerpon-W: 2
Damage output can be insane and hella restricting vs stall/fat yet there is some stall topping the ladder every now and then so there has to be some way to stem her (mainly amoonguss), being item locked hurts against hazard stack and 350 is decent speed but nothing outstanding so fast mons can force her out taking hazard dmg next turn/get the revenge kill.

Kyurem: 1
Opinion is the same as it was during last suspect, too item reliant, with common weaknesses, middling speed and is hazard weak, can sweep in the right circumstances but it need a decent amount of support imo, and I haven't seen insane things from it in tourney recently (gotta admit that I haven't seen every spl replay yet so if I have missed some ballsy Kyurem performances I'm sorry).

Zamazenta: 1
Can't fit STAB/crunch/ice fang/heavy slam/stone edge all in the same moveslot so there will always be something missing; generally with a decently bulky ghost on your team you'll be fine.

Raging Bolt: 2
Very high spAtk and good bulk but it's very linear atm, maybe there could be some set with Tera blast or weather ball ice paired with glowking that can push it over the edge but idk tbh.

Gliscor: 2
Can be annoying but it's needed for stall imo.

Tera Blast: 2
Could have voted 3 cuz with the right tb you can entirely flip a match and sweep on the spot especially if oppo has exhausted tera but I really enjoy this metagame in it's entirety and the move can still be deadweight if you have to tera something else to avoid your game go south so have decided to vote 2, wouldn't mind seeing it suspected tho.

I know I'm in the minority but I do enjoy SV a lot rn (top on par with BW) so high enjoyment and low scores on the mons are just a consequence of that. For competitivness I haven't seen strange or undeserved winners on tours so that's the main reason for that score.

Idk if there are dead times for tours soon so maybe we can create a different ladder with TB banned and volc (and obv regieleki) in to have a compromise between who wants kyurem out, who wants TB out, who wants Kyurem in and who wants Volc back, as with TB out and Volc in kyurem should be manageable for who founds it really annoying rn, just an idea tho.

Yapping over, Peace and love.
Quick! what’s a Kyurem switch in? Oops wrong set
 
ofc there are creative teams that do peak the ladder, be these are few and far between. Of course, if you scroll through the RMTs you will see lots of creative teams, but of course you will, that's where people post them after all. Even then, despite these teams having 1 or 2 novel choices they still mostly just revolve around the exact same cores, I can understand where you are coming from tho, theres not NO innovation.
yeah, i see your point. def not as easy to be diverse or innovate in very meaningful ways as gen 8 let's say. i think maybe you cant expect too much tho, by now the roles that are most relevant in gen 9 are so well defined its kinda hard to break the mold and idk if thats fixable or even if it needs to be fixed compared to most other metagames
 
Hey I'm going to post my thoughts and my tier survey here. I made the cut in the Gliscor's suspect test (and said it in the survey) so I think I am a "qualified" opinion (this is a question to the council, not a way to say "I'm better than all of you" my opinion has the same value as anyone else's one.) If not, at least Imma share it here.

My enjoyment and competitive ratings are both 6/10. Kyuremless meta was an 8 in both imo. I'm talking only about ladder, since while I like to watch tournaments, I don't have the knowledge nor the experience to talk about the situation there.

Kingambit - 5

Has been one of the main reasons if not the main for the threat saturation and challenges teambuilding since day one in this generation (aside from tera, tbh). The tier would be 10x better without it in my opinion.

Kyurem - 5

Third time's the charm let's pray. Too much threats in the tier and without stuff like Volc (a mon I would have in OU if it tera / tb didn't exist) is even harder to tackle.

Ogerpon - Wellspring - 3

I'm not the biggest fan of this Pokémon, I made a post about it and while I do not think is the biggest priority, I understand the reasoning behind a suspect test for it.

Raging Bolt - 2

Could be broken if a lot of stuff gets banned. At the moment it seems really manageable from my experience playing.

Zamazenta - 1

Same level of "brokeness" as Great Tusk or Lando. The three of them are good, important glue mons. Zamazenta is a nice piece of SVOU rather than a problem and even if some Pokémon get banned from the tier common Pokemon can check it.

Tera Blast - 5

I rather want this banned to shake up the tier than from being broken by itself. And it would free Volc and potentially lead to another tera suspect in the future. Regieleki will be irrelevant imho, it's a weaker Deo-S with a bit more of speed and 0 coverage + less utility.

Other stuff - Terastalization

In hindsight I shoud have proposed other Pokémon like Hamurott or Ting Lu, that should maybe be kept in the radar.
 
>people still crying about being Ceaselessly Edged in 2025
SamuGOD.png
 
Ting Lu isnt holding the meta together (he is one of the best Raging Bolt check though, which is respectable) and in fact is a mediocre and overrated mon for me personally. There is obviously 0 need to Ban it and due to the Bolt thing a Ban would indeed make the meta worse.
 
Ting Lu isnt holding the meta together (he is one of the best Raging Bolt check though, which is respectable) and in fact is a mediocre and overrated mon for me personally. There is obviously 0 need to Ban it and due to the Bolt thing a Ban would indeed make the meta worse.
lu also one of the best checks to moth, darkrai, pult, ghold, crown, and moon just to name a few. I haven't even mentioned everything else it can check with tera
 
Enjoyment: 3
Competitiveness: 3
Kingambit: 2
Kyurem: 4
Ogerpon-W: 3
Zamazenta: 1
Raging Bolt: 2
Gliscor: 2
Tera Blast: 1



Enjoyment
It is what it is....too many things that add up to just make it not that great of an experience.

Competitiveness
Excessive variability and competitiveness don't go hand in hand for me.

:kingambit:
Gambit is fine. It has enough consistent counterplay and is extremely predictable.

:kyurem:
Loaded Dice DD is probably too strong for the meta. The other sets are manageable but this one is always problematic as it's relatively easy to set up given it's bulk and resistances coupled with tera. Teams without strong priority or some kinda of consistent speed control get run through by this set pretty easily and it still does well versus the teams that have these.

:ogerpon-wellspring:
Borderline but it's inability to boost it's speed while retaining decent coverage or power keeps in check as far as the meta is concerned.

:zamazenta:
Same as gambit.

:raging-bolt:
Same as gambit

:gliscor:
Always annoying but annoying doesn't mean broken. Both offensive and defensive sets have consistent counterplay. The defensive counterplay isn't as good comparatively but there is enough out there to get the job done to the point where it isn't overwhelming teams.

Tera Blast
Banning it does nothing to solves peoples gripes with what causes it to even be a viable moveslot option which is Tera. it wouldn't be banned as per tiering policy as it's clear the move is inherently not broken and every argument attributed towards banning it is a viable reasoning that can be applied to Tera itself. Banning this would be the biggest nothingburger for the meta and opens its own can of worms around adhering to the policy. Nah

Other Stuff

:lugia:


This mon is garbage and could easily see this going dropping to UU in terms of usage if allowed in OU. Defensively it doesn't deal well with status, OU is littered with Dark types, Knock Off, Status moves...etc. It's decent at phazing, can tank hits and could be good as a check to a number of the stonger mons given it's defensive profile and multiscale, but this is all it really brings defensively. Offensively as a CM sweeper it might have merit sometimes. It realistically needs to +3 to be a huge threat and it's also a tera hog whilst tera isn't really doing much to mitigate the weaknesses it does have. Free big bird already.
 
Last edited:
Idk about anyone else. I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with the meta but I haven’t enjoyed it in a very long time. I know Finch likes to say “oh look Araquanid instead of Ribombee, the meta is always changing” but just a different webs setter seems like the same boring offense/HO that’s has defined this gen. I am skeptical that any Mon will be be banned for the rest of gen 9. Maybe Tera blast will go and that will remove some variance. But the voter base seems to agree “everything is sort of broken if you look at it funny, but also nothing is broken you’re skilless.”
 
Enjoyment: 7
Competitiveness: 8
Kingambit: 3
Kyurem: 1
Ogerpon-W: 3
Zamazenta: 1
Raging Bolt: 3
Gliscor: 1
Tera Blast: 2
Write ins: Solgaleo, Regieleki, Terastalization.

I don't find tera blast particularly concerning, Ogerpon-W has no switch ins if you don't know the set because it has too much potential coverage. While 110 speed is nothing to write about in today's age, it is still very speedy.
Raging Bolt has 2 mons that feel confortable switching in and they are Treads and Ting Lu. And it is so tanky it can survive many supereffective hits and then Thunderclap. A calm minded Raging Bolt is one of the most frightening creatures in the pokemon world.
A very strong priority move supported by a great mon who can tera Fairy to deal a mortal blow to your team is what Raging Bolt and Kingambit have in common. Both are a 3, and if I probably should have given Bolt a 4.
Kyurem and Gliscor are not so scary.
Zamazenta is a good boy.

Solgaleo is strong and has good coverage, but it can't boost its attack, it's slow, and shares an exploitable typing (and speed tier 97 vs 98) with Crown. It also has no way to pivot while dealing damage (it only has teleport), so it can't do it with AV.
Regieleki has 80/50/50 bulk and 100 special attack. Is 200 speed and VoltBeam enough to make it broken when everyone and their mother has priority and it can't even ohko Dragapult with TBlast?
252 Atk Choice Band Dragapult Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Regieleki: 107-127 (35.5 - 42.1%)
252 SpA Tera Ice Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 278-330 (87.6 - 104.1%)
This thing without TBlast is RU at best. With it, I'd have to see a retest to be sure it's too much for OU.
 
People don't mention that regileki was banned with transistor programmed much stronger. It is probably not even OU with tera blast banned, but there's reasonably a discussion to be had about it due to its quickban occurring with bad mechanics, anyways. But i wouldn't bother making this argument too often until the tera blast bridge is crossed since that settles it immediately

The poster above that stated tera blast ban goes against policy and i don't see how. We have banned moves for being broken but also purely on not being competitive. Argument against competitiveness is easy but also remember that some (a few) of our banned, broken mons did use tera blast often. Kyurem will still be a monster but taken down a peg without tera blast.

This is a revolving door of dead internet conversation

I will never mention Tera blast again if it scores low.

Edit: just reread the "views from the council" thread discussing kokoloko and bruh look at some of the suggested quickbans. Serperior. Fortunately we didn't go that direction. Many mentioned it at the time though
 
Last edited:
Idk about anyone else. I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with the meta but I haven’t enjoyed it in a very long time. I know Finch likes to say “oh look Araquanid instead of Ribombee, the meta is always changing” but just a different webs setter seems like the same boring offense/HO that’s has defined this gen. I am skeptical that any Mon will be be banned for the rest of gen 9. Maybe Tera blast will go and that will remove some variance. But the voter base seems to agree “everything is sort of broken if you look at it funny, but also nothing is broken you’re skilless.”
I think one of the biggest problems is threat saturation. This generation has introduced numerous offensive threats that just so happen to check one another on the offensive teams that would otherwise fold to them, which creates a dynamic where those same offensive teams end up getting the riches of being able to deal with one threat that deals with a threat on their team while balance and fat end up with near auto-loss MUs while having decent MUs into both one another and certain forms of offense. Banning one thing doesn't make a difference - we either have to go all the way or go nowhere, as many of the current suspects are piecing the metagame together.
 
Haven't played seriously in awhile and don't plan on it, but wanted to chime in and somewhat agree with Fuego and Bobby. My enjoyment with the meta is very low, and I'm not satisfied with the progress this tier has made. My sentiment hasn't necessarily changed or stayed the same, banning Tera Blast may or may not reduce the variance issue. My problem lies with Kyurem after it slipped through the cracks of that suspect test, this meta would be a lot better without it objectively speaking. Everything else is more or less balanced to me except for Darkrai beyond that. Not perfectly so, but enough. Like Daylight said, threat saturation is very high. Threats so happen to check each other which gives the illusion of a balanced metagame, hence why I'm not fond of it. How much of that is influenced by Tera and or Tera blast? Undeterminable exactly. Would banning Tera Blast help? Again, maybe. It's an option I'm willing to stick around for and see through. Coming from a background favoring Sword and Shield, I understand a top heavy metagame with centralizing threats. It's actually what I like, and to some degree it's healthy. However, this is more than just that. This is unhealthy. This goes to the point of matchup fishing and inconsistency among otherwise commonplace reliable playstyles.

I understand the sentiment of hesitancy towards banning Tera and or Tera Blast, I think it's reasonable to believe that it would do nothing. That is a logical conclusion to reach given the lack of information we have about the potential outcome. However, a suspect test couldn't possibly be worse than what we have right now. I think the upside is just as likely as the downside. Some of it's a community issue, this is to-date one of the most divided generations in the history of Smogon. Some of this is a meta issue, this is also to-date one of the most power-crept metas in the history of Smogon. That said, it wouldn't hurt to try. I mean, we tried to suspect Gliscor. That was the biggest nothingburger I have ever witnessed in my entire life. What's another one at this point? Have we failed to wring the feeling of shame and embarrassment out of ourselves? Just saying.
 
Last edited:
Banning it does nothing to solves peoples gripes with what causes it to even be a viable moveslot option which is Tera. it wouldn't be banned as per tiering policy as it's clear the move is inherently not broken and every argument attributed towards banning it is a viable reasoning that can be applied to Tera itself. Banning this would be the biggest nothingburger for the meta and opens its own can of worms around adhering to the policy. Nah
I know you're my biggest fan of all time (as evident by you hahaing every post I make, I know I'm a huge entertainer like that) but I'm unfortunately going to have to break your heart here buddy because you're saying some stuff that just isn't true wrt policy, regardless of your stance on Tera Blast.

Tera Blast is not broken, but saying that it isn't is contesting a stance that isn't even being argued. I beg all pro-Tera Blast arguers to stop making this claim because nobody disagrees with you. The argument is that it errs closer toward being uncompetitive/unhealthy, which tiering policy actually also addresses as a valid reason to tier an element. The reason why people make this argument is because it impacts dynamics involving Tera usage, sends a Pokemon's coverage profile into overwhelming territory that is not established by a pre-existing movepool, and introduces a very serious element of matchup fishing. If anybody wants more information on this I've elaborated quite a bit in previous posts as well as my Youtube video if you want something more bite-size.

These reasons can potentially be tethered to Tera, as you claim, but in my opinion it doesn't really at all. There is a very tangible skill around being aware of and maneuvering around the kinds of Tera types your opponent Pokemon may be inclined to use based on their role and team composition. While it's tied to the mechanic the reasons to tier it are pretty distinct from Tera in practice. It also is a super easy element to tier and is the only real compromise between both ends of the Tera spectrum that isn't a policy-disrupting half-measure since there is a shitton of precedent to tier moves, including earlier this generation when we banned Last Respects and Shed Tail.

It not only opens exactly 0 cans of worms but it also does have some merit in terms of improving the tier regardless of how obvious or subtle its impact may be. I can say for sure it would be felt in gameplay sequencing even if it isn't as felt in areas like building.
 
I think one of the biggest problems is threat saturation. This generation has introduced numerous offensive threats that just so happen to check one another on the offensive teams that would otherwise fold to them, which creates a dynamic where those same offensive teams end up getting the riches of being able to deal with one threat that deals with a threat on their team while balance and fat end up with near auto-loss MUs while having decent MUs into both one another and certain forms of offense. Banning one thing doesn't make a difference - we either have to go all the way or go nowhere, as many of the current suspects are piecing the metagame together.

I don't agree with this completely. Sure, banning 1 mon won't solve the issue, but I believe banning 2-3 could get us to the point where threat saturation is not a big issue anymore. I neither agree with the crowd that there are no issues with the tier nor with the crowd that believes the tier has a ton of issues.
 
I don't agree with this completely. Sure, banning 1 mon won't solve the issue, but I believe banning 2-3 could get us to the point where threat saturation is not a big issue anymore.
the classic BW OU conundrum

Enjoyment: 6
Competitiveness: 6
Kingambit: 2
Kyurem: 3
Ogerpon-W: 4
Zamazenta: 1
Raging Bolt: 1
Gliscor: 1
Tera Blast: 5

I think OU is fine. I definitely think Ogerpon-W and Tera Blast should be first up on the suspect bracket.

Wellspring, especially after the increased uses of bulkier sets and pivoting sets, has proven itself as one of the most defining mons in the metagame. I think its set variety and its role compression give you very limited reasons not to run it, as its ability to threaten and disrupt a large chunk of the metagame cannot be understated. I am not necessarily pro-ban or anti-ban on Wellspring, but I do think some action is absolutely warranted. I think if Wellspring is banned, it'll put into perspective how much it has warped the metagame around it. Whether or not it warps it to the extent of being broken, only time will tell.

Tera Blast– I agree with ausma on this– is not necessarily broken. However, I do think tera blast is something that makes tera as a whole a more unhealthy mechanic. Being able to give yourself a second or third STAB has proven itself to both cause unpredictability in the metagame and led to the banning of at least three mons: cheespathra, volcarona, and regieleki. To me, there are no real detriments to banning tera blast, as it would both make playing the tier more competitive by reducing cheesy surprise teras and seal the deal on mons that really should have dropped to UU forever ago (hi enam!).
fair enough, tera blast is niche enough on many of those mons that a ban of it won't actually affect them. most of them have other sets that they use, so it's easier to just count the ones that use tera blast a lot of the time. so this time around, let's only count the pokemon that run tera blast 25% or more of the time:
This comment does a very good job of outlining all of the mons in lower tiers affected by a tera blast ban. Suffice it to say, I do not think banning tera blast will be the end of the world for lower tiers, and it's a good first step to take before examining tera itself.

TL;DR, Wellspring needs a suspect, but I am not necessarily sure if I would be for or against banning it, and Tera Blast should be suspected in order to make the meta more competitive by removing cheesy nonsense.
 
I know you're my biggest fan of all time (as evident by you hahaing every post I make, I know I'm a huge entertainer like that) but I'm unfortunately going to have to break your heart here buddy because you're saying some stuff that just isn't true wrt policy, regardless of your stance on Tera Blast.

Tera Blast is not broken, but saying that it isn't is contesting a stance that isn't even being argued. I beg all pro-Tera Blast arguers to stop making this claim because nobody disagrees with you. The argument is that it errs closer toward being uncompetitive/unhealthy, which tiering policy actually also addresses as a valid reason to tier an element. The reason why people make this argument is because it impacts dynamics involving Tera usage, sends a Pokemon's coverage profile into overwhelming territory that is not established by a pre-existing movepool, and introduces a very serious element of matchup fishing. If anybody wants more information on this I've elaborated quite a bit in previous posts as well as my Youtube video if you want something more bite-size.

These reasons can potentially be tethered to Tera, as you claim, but in my opinion it doesn't really at all. There is a very tangible skill around being aware of and maneuvering around the kinds of Tera types your opponent Pokemon may be inclined to use based on their role and team composition. While it's tied to the mechanic the reasons to tier it are pretty distinct from Tera in practice. It also is a super easy element to tier and is the only real compromise between both ends of the Tera spectrum that isn't a policy-disrupting half-measure since there is a shitton of precedent to tier moves, including earlier this generation when we banned Last Respects and Shed Tail.

It not only opens exactly 0 cans of worms but it also does have some merit in terms of improving the tier regardless of how obvious or subtle its impact may be. I can say for sure it would be felt in gameplay sequencing even if it isn't as felt in areas like building.
It's cute you think I would be a fan bud but theres a big difference between laughing at and laughing with.

As far as Tera Blast goes, if it's agreed that it's not broken then it shouldn't be brought up as a serious topic for ban discussion. It's as simple as that really. You can do all the mental gymnastics in the world to show how it's tangibly different from Tera itself but if the focus of your argument is that it's unhealthy because of the interactions it causes then it just falls short as Tera at it's core creates the same issues. Sure you can state the subtle differences of using moves versus the full mechanic but the inherent problem you're addressing is the same. Matchup fishy interactions that can swing games if you guess wrong at something that can be highly variable.

We also have never banned things just because they have elements of being unhealthy, there is a ton of stuff in this game that fits that criteria. Onus is on the status quo for proving it to be unhealthy enough to warrant tiering action and as per the tiering policy regarding things being unhealthy:

  • This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
  • When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

Does it look like we have a community outcry for this?
Do you see the conviction in the playerbase that this move is producing notable instances where you consistently see lesser players beating better players?

Sorry buddy, my heart's no where near broken after that response....
 
Back
Top