Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[JackRG]

This set is fantastic. +2 Ghost Sneak can prevent a lot of revenge killing if you’re still +0 speed and Polter just hits so hard that you’re usually forcing progress early if you’re not cleaning late.

The only cautionary tale is that it mandates hyper specific support and only really works on a limited scope of archetypes, but I do feel like the metagame right now is making the most of Ceruledge’s profile.

This post outlines LO Ceru's strength and weaknesses very well, and I'm curious to see how to the metagame will adapt to it. Maybe Ting-Lu will start running more physdef to handle this set better, and/or faster revenge killers like Dragapult will experiment with different Teras to be able to live +2 shadow sneak. Having a revenge killer that can live +2 Tera Ghost LO Shadow Sneak is very important, especially on balance. As an example, I've been liking Grasspon on balance already to handle wellspring, and it actually isn't too difficult to EV it to live this:

Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 140 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ivy Cudgel
- Knock Off
- Synthesis
- Spikes

Ceru def isn't broken though lol, and it is honestly one of the better offensive Pokémon designs from this gen, as despite its strengths it has drawbacks like mediocre bulk and a reasonable speed tier, especially when you compare it to the many heinously designed mons from this gen like Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire. If there's any aspect of Ceruledge that is arguably unhealthy/broken, it's screens, but I digress.

Name a single broken pokemon in OU - that's right there's none.

Alomomola is another sitting duck that very often needs to be killed last and i would personally love to see that bs mon suspect tested.

Don't these two statements completely contradict each other?

 

[CooolTrainer]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

 

[Finchinator]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

I definitely don’t think the metagame’s progression is this linear or just “HO spam” at all

 

[cat111ca]

The meta going back to HO spam is sort of a hummer tbh. Feels like nothing is really changing.

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

If you feel that way maybe use !
If you don't feel that way maybe use !
Please use cobalion or talk about y not

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

 

[Eeveeto]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

 

[Karxrida]

Leave the Body Press stuff entirely to Zamazenta and use Specs Cobalion. 90 Special Attack might be too low, but unlike Iron Crown you don't have to Tera as often and have Vacuum Wave too vs more offensive teams.

I feel like if you're using Cobalion it's probably due to weird role compression where your team doesn't want Zamazenta for some reason, so Body Press is fine. tbh if I was using Cobalion I'd probably stick with Leftovers since it takes like no damage from SR, plus you can still leverage Taunt and/or T-Wave. Though Vacuum Wave is a cool tech option.

 

[cat111ca]

my main question here is, what does cobalion have over treads as an early-game lead or utility pivot? treads has a similar speed tier which it can bolster significantly using booster energy, plus rapid spin for opposing hazard leads, knock off for utility sets, and just a generally better anti-lead matchup spread. it also has very similar bulk to cobalion, albeit a little less in the physical department. cobalion's use cases in uu are plentiful, but up here it seems like it would overlap with treads enough that i'm iffy about using it. i can definitely see it doing something here, though—it has a fantastic matchup against non-low-kick gambit, it packs thunder wave and taunt which iron treads notably lacks, and the stab body press gives it a solid damage output without having to invest in an attacking stat. but is that enough? i think this warrants some discussion

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.
If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads. Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

It isn't ground type. It's able to take ivy cudgels like a champ. It resistaces ice. Has taunt and Twave. And body press for. damage.

honestly, these are good points, and i think there's probably some hyper-specific comp out there that would benefit from all these in the same slot. but cobalion is going to have to really stand out to justify using it over tusk, treads, or zama in any areas where any of those overlap, and i don't know whether these tools distinguish it that much, especially with the opportunity cost

If you don't need knock off or rapid spin it's a combination of the best parts of tusk and treads.

Also talk about a knock off absorber. It's like if you took kingambit's defensive utility and replace damage with momentum and utility

i really don't think this comparison makes sense to make, and i don't really think cobalion is that good of a knock absorber. sure, it double resists rocks, but it still takes normal damage from spikes and that's not really something you want in a knock absorber. and the attack boost it gets from tanking a knock doesn't really matter when cobalion's standard damage options are body press and volt switch

 

[Rekka's Backend]

What are some of your favorite Hydrapple spreads or sets? I've been enjoying sticky hold rocky helmet physdef set but I'm curious if any of y'all have workshopped any spreads for more offensive specific comp ones. This is the one I've been enjoying a lot:

Hydrapple @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sticky Hold
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fickle Beam
- Giga Drain
- Recover
- Body Press

Body Press for steel types (team has ghold answers so its less stressful on Hydrapple) or Blissey, Giga Drain for some modest recovery in physhit exchanges (Largely Samu and Tusky tho), with enough HP to live a 2X ice hit from Tusk that isn't booster attack. I prefer Fickle beam because I like to leave it in to take a hit or two and the SPA loss from Draco hurts a bit.

 

[cat111ca]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

 

[soupeater]

I don't get it. I understand that rapid spin is a major reason these are good. But there are teams who don't need more hazard control. If you use for example.

Gweezing Teams almost always benefit from some form of additional hazard control, due to the fact that they're usually built around pokemon/sets that rely on it and the fact that some mons threaten Gweezing too much for it to defog into them.

Also theres the "If you don't need knock off" part, which like, knock off is just one of the best moves in the game. Even if you don't use it with Hazard Stack, removing leftovers/AV/Rocky Helmet/Covert Cloak/etc is still an extremely easy way to make progress.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

I really want to talk about 's potential. It can deal good damage with body press, pivot, set rocks and is practically immune to stealth rock. It's like a diet great tusk that's a steel type instead of ground. I want y'all to think about it's potential

I like coballion a lot the main problem with it is imo the ground weakness in its role, it makes it a bit harder to send it as a rocks lead with lando t, tusk, and glim around maybe balloon or tera grass could alleviate that but atp just use a lando t, the steel type is very nice for glim, but it struggles a fuck ton into birds plus corv cause of the fire weakness lack of electric resist and fighting weakness, additonally its pivoting move being volt switch doesnt help if it was uturn it would be a lot better tho

 

[Aminal]

I'm not jumping at the chance to use Cobalion here either, but we're only talking about it as a defensive mon, where I agree its completely overshadowed by the P-Donphans. But I think that it has value as an offensive mon: switch into a Knock Off or Kowtow Cleave, and all of a sudden +1 off 90 base attack with good bulk and decent speed isn't too bad. Unfortunately, its only good physical coverage move is Stone Edge, but it does get access to Taunt to shut down stall, T-Wave, Roar, the aforementioned Stealth Rock, and Quick Attack (lol). With a Booster Energy, the P-Dons have better offensive stats (in fact, 0 Atk EV GT > 252 Atk Jolly Cobalion), but Cobalion can instead come in throughout the battle and soak up Knock Offs and hit back a little hard and pretty fast.

With all that said, I tried it out with 252/252 Jolly with Stone Edge and Taunt and even on the lower ladder it is ass. 90 base attack does not cut it in this day and age and there are far too many powerful fighting and ground types around for a player to be switching this guy in and out without Boots or Leftovers. It also just cannot do anything against most common Knock Off users, such as Great Tusk/Gliscor (too bulky), Ogerpon (usually outsped by it), Meow (U-turns out), etc.

 

[Achohermano]

In my honest opinion, sadly, Cobalion has nothing to do in this metagame. You need BP to do some damage, and then you need to choose between Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Roar and, maybe, as Aminal said above me, Stone Edge. Pretty cool on paper, some role compression and while you dont have the best of matchups aganist Tusk, Lando, Treads, Zapdos even with Stone Edge, or Gliscor, and you're dead weight aganist Sun, you're ok aganist Gambit. You can actually tank a hit from Woger and cripple it with Para, same with IVal.

However, this Pokémon does NOTHING in front of Hatterene, which a top 10 Pokémon both in viability and usage right now. You need to somehow also fit a steel move there, and if you're doing that, either Ting Lu / Tusk sets up rocks in your face, or you can't phaze / Para enemy Pokémon, which was the whole point of using Cobalion in the first place.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

Fun set i have been running on webs is

Darkrai @ Choice Specs
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb

Specs modest rai's calcs are fucking disgusting like it is insane that this can ohko a multiscale dnite, 2hko into clodsire, this mon nukes everything besides like av alo, blissey and toxapex its a bit ridiculous

 

[cat111ca]

In my honest opinion, sadly, Cobalion has nothing to do in this metagame. You need BP to do some damage, and then you need to choose between Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Roar and, maybe, as Aminal said above me, Stone Edge. Pretty cool on paper, some role compression and while you dont have the best of matchups aganist Tusk, Lando, Treads, Zapdos even with Stone Edge, or Gliscor, and you're dead weight aganist Sun, you're ok aganist Gambit. You can actually tank a hit from Woger and cripple it with Para, same with IVal.

However, this Pokémon does NOTHING in front of Hatterene, which a top 10 Pokémon both in viability and usage right now. You need to somehow also fit a steel move there, and if you're doing that, either Ting Lu / Tusk sets up rocks in your face, or you can't phaze / Para enemy Pokémon, which was the whole point of using Cobalion in the first place.

To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.

 

[Estradiol5mg]

To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.

I just dont see what the point of this mon is when treads exists, like 1 has way better mu spread, 2 can do stuff into hat, 3 also can pivot, 4 can destroy hat, 5 treads has better mu's into birds just typing wise

 

[658Greninja]

As much as Ceruledge is the goat. The hype is getting overblown. I’m already hearing players calling for a suspect test which is an absurd proposition to consider, especially with Drakingvonite running the streets.

Ceruledge is indeed a fantastic wallbreaker/sweeper but it has clear limitations holding it back.

Ceruledge needs specific conditions in order to sweep. Rocks need to be off the field, it desires support from screens/terrain/webs, LO/Sash should be intact, and more importantly, it needs to be hit with a physical move. This is all doable on paper and practice, but it limits the builds Ceruledge fits on, and means Ceruledge counterplay is simple.

To achieve most of those insane calcs, Ceruledge has to burn Tera, otherwise Pokemon like Lando, Tusk, and Dnite will survive and OHKO Ceruledge. As stated earlier it also needs LO, which can be difficult to preserve vs Balance/BO with many staples carrying Knock Off.

Ceruledge is hella slow without a boost and prefers to invest in bulk or speed to offset that. Even so, there are several mons who can outspeed, live a +2 Sneak and kill it. Glimmora (Red Card variants 1v1 Ceru after the item is used), Wake, Tusk, Scarf Ghold post-Tera, Darkrai, Treads, Lando, Tusk, Samu, Scale Shot DD Kyu, Sucker Cinderace, Wellspring, Weavile etc. Encore also stops Ceruledge sweeps before they start.

Ceruledge is also not difficult to deal with post-Weak Armor boost. Balance teams have stuff like Payback Ting-Lu, Tera Dark Pecha, Tera Normal Dtail Dnite, Sucker Samu, ID/Curse Garg (underrated set), and Gambit. More offensive teams have priority to rkill it post-Tera or Booster Raging Bolt.

Players do not prep for Ceruledge as they do for the other offensive threats, but that is likely to change very soon. H-Samu has been overlooked, but it appreciates several meta trends such as higher Hatt and Tran usage, but more importantly it punishes Ceruledge well with priority or Encore. Galarian-Weezing usage has also lowered in recent memory, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Samu gets more attention as we move forward to December. It will incentivize Ceruledge to run CC more frequently which means less Poltergeist nuking every physical wall in the meta.

Also, if you look at the current usage stats for SCL, not only is Ceruledge rarely popping up, it’s underperforming with a 16.67% winrate. Normally winrate isn’t something to seriously consider, but wanting to ban a mon with an abysmal winrate is wild. Looking through OUPL replays, most of the games that featured Ceruledge resulted in losses where Ceruledge didn’t get to contribute much, or wins which were the doings of other mons on the team. Even during the last few weeks of OLT, Ceruledge didn’t do much. In Vert’s semifinals game, Ceruledge does put in work forcing Ting-Lu down to low HP and forces Tera, but nothing outright broken. In Separation’s Finals match, Ceruledge didn’t even come out lol

Ceruledge is a positive presence in the tier. It punishes brainless pivot spam (the most uninteractive playstyle only behind Stall) and promotes proactive gameplay. Having a burn immunity is important for Offense and Ceruledge fulfills that role and more. Compared to other sweepers we’ve banned and Dnite, Ceruledge demands a ton of support. Beating it is about playing smart; situational awareness and not staying in to give it a free boost.

 

[Achohermano]

To me one bad matchup in the top 10 and 2 great matchups is good enough. Also, because cobalion is a steel type and never used you can use a steel move and until it uses it the opponent thinks it doesn't.

Great Tusk --> Okay at best, you don't do anything in front of it except of slightly chip it and probably get yourself worn out if it has helmet. Can set up rocks, bulk up, do heavy damage with headlong, clean away hazards...
Kingambit --> Good matchup for Cobalion
Gholdengo --> A lvl 1 sandshrew does more than cobalion here
Ogerpon Wellspring --> Okay-ish at best and i'm being really grateful. You can't switch in, it chips you easily with stab, can just pivot with u-turn...You deal with it 1v1 if you have good para luck and she doesn't have tera
Zamazenta --> Good aganist any non Sub non Roar non Rest variants if IDef, you can't switch in, last mon 1v1 situation it wins you easily, it's faster so it roars you before... If it's boots you cant sponge a hit a Twave it so let's say it's ok.
Dragonite --> A good matchup, solidly
Dragapult --> Can't deal direct damage to it, it just pivots. You can't switch in.
Slowking-G --> If it packs flamethrower or TWave you're cooked, you can't stay on future sight, and it pivots in your face without any issues
Landorus - Therian --> Extremely bad, even worse if it's EP Lando
Hatterene --> I already explained it.

So, 2 ok matchups (being generous), 1 good matchup, 7 horrible matchups.

 

[olamomalo]

Hello I wanted to share some quality spice for Ceruledge sets and tech options that extend beyond the "new" tera ghost poltergeist.

I've already made a post about dual Fire STAB Tera Fire Flare Blitz in Sun here. If you want to break, just click that move. I think it might be the most powerful attack in OU with Sun and Flash Fire up. Very silly. Opp can't tera out of it or play games with Poltergeist doing 0.

Destiny Bond
This move is really cheap. You can force trades against things you have no business trading with. I think this is the best option on Webs teams utilizing ceruledge. Making up for the poor trade potential of webs leads is very important.

Shamelss self-promotion of DBond webs here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/destiny-bond-webs-extremely-honest-1950-olt-trolling.3769799/

No Ghost
Tera Ghost with Sneak and Polter is very nice as a sweeper on its own, but it gets bricked by a few more things that stifle breaking options (i.e. anything that loses its item and resists sneak.) That's why I think it's better to use it as a trade machine rather than a game ender.

Ceruledge @ Focus Sash
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Flying
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Destiny Bond
- Close Combat
- Bitter Blade
Real talk: I think this is the best ceruledge set for HOs. With sash and +2 you are basically guaranteed 1 KO no matter what, but then you get revenged. Defensive answers to ceruledge will be things like . They resist blade and/or punish Ghost attacks, and force you to run a fighting move. So then you get the trade 2-for-1, maybe blowing tera to get +4 on the ground or fighting move. If they scout or tera out of the CC, then you are free to click Destiny Bond. This can result in pretty simple 3-for-1 or 2-for-1 plus tera trade patterns that put a huge hole in the enemy team for to exploit. Very cheap.

Tera Normal Forbidden Tech
Ceruledge @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Normal
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Shadow Sneak
- Bitter Blade

This is slimy tech, but you punish toxic/spikes noobs, opposing ceruledge, and get a move that you click for free because anything that lives facade also dies to +2 sneak. I ONLY run this on webs.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Ceruledge Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Water Ting-Lu: 520-614 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Brick Break
Actually viable over CC because with LO it still KOs all the stuff you need it to hit and it smokes screens noobcakes.