i've considered using Hydrapple AV, but I've never been able to fit it into any team, I think it could be useful
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
usually i just do standard phys def np apple with helmet. Really pushes its defensive capabilities and lets it chip tusk and wellspring into ko ranges. Tera steel is a favorite of mine to punish weavile and such.
You made some solid arguments for everything but if you don't mind for making this post easier to read I'll just quote the last line. But I read everything and you made some solid points.
The thing is (I knew it could Volt Switch...As you said, for some reason neither of us know) but at that point you're just running an Spinless Iron Treads that can't booster and without potential Ice Coverage. I don't think that Cobalion is completely useless, like dead weight in every game (as I said, I do think it wins teraless Gambit and it can check and cripple Dragonite) but the "role compression" it brings it's not worth and it has really bad matchups aganist a lot of top tiers.
You can, as you correctly stated, slot Heavy Slam, and Volt Switch, but at that point you're using Iron Treads 0.5
Wow some of you guys are so traumatized by this thing and then proceed to accuse me of fearmongering when I talk about unbans and ZapKingLuSoo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about. So what's and when's the next tiering action going to happen?
Unless new tech gets discovered, I believe Ogerpon-W will remain OU for the remainder of the generation. From my point of view it does not have what it takes to break the tier.
Ogerpon Wellspring is just this gen's "kinda bullshit but it has counterplay and isn't entirely braindead so we'll let it slide" mon, like Melmetal in gen 8 and Kartana in gen 7. yes most of what Ogerpon does is click Ivy Cudgel but it has real limitations and isn't without any counterplay. unless you play terribly, it will always get something done but similarly from the opponent's POV, there's always good plays that limit it from mindlessly attacking. it's telling that qualified players tend to rate it lower than the general playerbase . in SCL, it's number 10 in usage with a 61% winrate, which is great but hardly overbearing. (yes I know usage and winrate aren't everything but that doesn't mean they're not worth considering) Ogerpon Wellspring is a metagame defining presence for sure but SV OU is such an offense heavy metagame that there's lots of ways to outplay it.
Well. This gen already has alot of offensive bullshit (yes
i am looking at y'all)And unlike
and 
it has way too much utility for such an overbearing offensive force. Between spikes, encore, taunt, synthesis, spiky shield, u-turn, knock off and trailblaze. (All somewhat viable other than maybe spiky shield) And with the overbearing force of just ivy cudgel it can use a slot or two for utility.And again, you compared it to two of the most controversial Pokemon in previous generation
with rocky helmet hydraple its honestly not that bad anymore i still think a suspect test is warranted just dont know if it is ban worthy rn need to wait some time to see if playrough is good or if there will be tech, frankly i just think dnite warents a suspect much more that wogerpon both though i believe are a overall unhealthy presence of the metagameSoo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about
I see what you're getting at. But her main move isn't contact so she isn't punished as much as it's just a waste. And that's a uu mon using a specific item giving up on the great regenerator boots combo. It is a worth while counter but encore and play rough sets can beat it
you have a 4x resist to signature, its more abt playrough and uturn along with being able to punish tusk headlong rush's so u dont get overwhelmed by the combination of wogerpon and tusk
I am not really sure what you mean by making the post easier to read lol. Anyway though, I don't disagree with you at all. Cobalion is kind of just outclassed by Iron Treads and there are few times you would use Cobalion over it. If only it had something that could actually justify it being used in OU.
I don't know if this is intended to be a joke and if it is then power to you I guess. If it isn't though, I don't understand why you think just because you and some other people have posted on here saying it is broken that suddenly the council is going to suspect test Wogerpon. In a survey that just happened barely a month ago, the qualified player base did not give it nearly the amount of support needed for a suspect test. I can't say the same thing about the general support, but the council usually seems to consider the qualified result before the general one. If you really want Wogerpon suspect tested, then go ahead and keep campaigning for it but don't assume that just because you believe you made a good argument that everyone is going to suddenly accept it as truth.Soo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about
I personally am more in favor of having a suspect test of wogerpon simply to get ppl to stop yapping abt it and fuel discussion around it but anyway it is nowhere near the priority of something like dnite for a suspect test. i just dont see wogerpon getting banned unless new tech is found and we should be focusing on dnite anyway rn
Being correct about Ogerpon-W remaining OU doesn't suddenly make the unban campaigns or desire to suspect Alomomola and Ting-Lu any less absurd. One relatively-green player making a fearful proposal doesn't have any effect on how agreeable your own controversial ones are.
More than just straight absurd power, I think the thing that needs to be discussed if anyone wants to push for a Suspect test is greater Metagame effect since we've long since Tested the mons that would just be "big number" problems like DLC1 Gliscor (DLC2 it's seemed pretty honest) on defensive play or Baxcalibur on offensive. Like does Ting-Lu actually force anything to play differently, or is it just an extremely strong blanket check to a lot of the tier's attackers? Does Wellspring force defensive teams to build outright suboptimal structures, or is it just one breaker they have to weigh the heavy risk of compared to being weak to, say, Gholdengo or NP Darkrai? We've been in SV OU long enough that I think wider meta effects are visible without being trends that will easily shift around, so discussing that wider context is more important to pin down things to add, remove, or experiment with.
"Why would the council suspect something just because a portion of players want it suspected" than how DO they choose what suspect test to do? Personal opinion only?
What i hear is that you think I'm stupid for thinking the council should listen to a portion of the playerbase. Even if they are (theoretically) wrong if it's only about the chance for a chance. Suspects of controversial Pokemon should happen because that will decide the debate, also it gives people more reason to play which is a nice bonus
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Our collective opinion as a council is the decider in suspect decisions, yes. With this said, we have a plethora of data from surveys and written arguments to survey from the community. Based on the most recent data sample, Ogeron-Wellspring isn’t close to the most supported Pokemon to receive a suspect or ban. In addition, multiple council members have noted that they do not find it banworthy.
Just because a loud handful may be outspoken in saying X needs a suspect or ban doesn’t mean it represents the playerbase or it has to happen. This is one of many things that are examined.
Is it public information who is the most supported pokemon for a suspect according to the written arguments from the community?
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Yes, actually! The most recent Survey's results can be found here. Dragonite has the highest support for a ban from the qualified playerbase, while Wellspring has the highest support from the general population (although Kyurem, then Dragonite, are not far behind.)
Wellspring is incredibly obnoxious to fight and it's usually a crit away from stealing a game, but Dragonite's the far more likely suspect test. Thank goodness for when that happens, I never want to fight a mono attacker Tera Flying Dragonite again.
I agree that controversial pokemon should be suspected and honestly, I wouldn't even mind a suspect of Wogerpon at this point even if I personally don't think it is banworthy. However, complaining and making your argument on the forums is not going to make the council suddenly go "hey this small group of players is complaining maybe we should do it now!" I think what makes the forums cool is that it allows other people to see your argument and agree to support it. Tiering action happens because those people that support an argument to ban (or sometimes unban) something become the majority. You and the other people making the argument in the first place aren't the majority it is all the people who support that argument that do. However, there wasn't a big enough group of people who thought Wogerpon was worth suspecting on the survey. If you want Wogerpon to be suspected, then you have to make a good argument and hope enough people that vote on the survey support your argument.
(If that makes any sense lol)
Edit: In hindsight idk why I made this post when Finchinator said it way better in less words lmao.
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Metronome (the move) adds cheese to the game without any strategic or competitive gain.
We had Acupressure banned for potentially violating the evasion clause.
Metronome is capable of violating not only the evasion clause but also the OH-KO moves clause.
Some examples in the mid ladder of anti-competitive play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2483958070-1pm4v15dllbgkm2qcg2r1dfhrn1q9jwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485253448-uhibem1jx77shjifj1d5p7mfuwyxpuxpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485720435-o5kv2a4fgieyejy442uuqd01oi8vxn7pw?p2
It's not a priority, but I believe the question should be "why not ban it?", instead of the common "why ban it?"
never, unfortunately. i think we're done with ou suspects this gen. we've been deprived of a reference point for so long that a large portion of the playerbase has forgotten what a balanced meta even looks like. some people haven't, but half of them gave up on this gen after the initial tera suspect and the other half has been bleeding away the whole rest of the gen. this is what we're going to have to live withSoo... I think me and alot of people have made are points clear about
And that's what i feel about wellspring in a nutshell
You know what. Correct. I've already made my points and haven't succeeded with my attempts
Vro are you forgetting that Dnite got 3.44 from the qualified player base
Metronome (the move) adds cheese to the game without any strategic or competitive gain.
We had Acupressure banned for potentially violating the evasion clause.
Metronome is capable of violating not only the evasion clause but also the OH-KO moves clause.
Some examples in the mid ladder of anti-competitive play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2483958070-1pm4v15dllbgkm2qcg2r1dfhrn1q9jwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485253448-uhibem1jx77shjifj1d5p7mfuwyxpuxpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485720435-o5kv2a4fgieyejy442uuqd01oi8vxn7pw?p2
It's not a priority, but I believe the question should be "why not ban it?", instead of the common "why ban it?"
Tio Chico Good post. If Acupressure could potentially steal games with Evasion boosts, leading to its inclusion in Evasion Clause, Metronome should be banned for potentially violating Evasion and OHKO Moves Clause.
I thought this was high enough too, but it has been a month since the results came out and we still haven't gotten a suspect test so maybe the council doesn't have the same opinion.
I agree that it should probably be banned for similar reasons as acupressure, but I don't think enough people use it to warrant a ban.
Metronome (the move) adds cheese to the game without any strategic or competitive gain.
We had Acupressure banned for potentially violating the evasion clause.
Metronome is capable of violating not only the evasion clause but also the OH-KO moves clause.
Some examples in the mid ladder of anti-competitive play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2483958070-1pm4v15dllbgkm2qcg2r1dfhrn1q9jwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485253448-uhibem1jx77shjifj1d5p7mfuwyxpuxpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2485720435-o5kv2a4fgieyejy442uuqd01oi8vxn7pw?p2
It's not a priority, but I believe the question should be "why not ban it?", instead of the common "why ban it?"
a month ago. usually when the council is gearing up for a suspect we would've heard at least a single word about it by now